Secret Agent: Send Your Children To A Village! How To Detect A Lie Instantly! The Eye Contact Trick I Learnt From 12 Years As A Secret Service Agent! - Evy Poumpouras

23:42Just don't show it and let them talk and just see what they're thinking. Most people as they're talking to you, Steven, they will on their own realize as they talk through it, what they made wrong, what they did wrong. Also, you lead by example. So sometimes I'll make a mistake. I'll miss a deadline with someone I work with. And I'll say, listen, I'm sorry. I was traveling. I own it. Tell me what I need to do to fix it. And what I have found when I do that, the people I work with, when they make a mistake and I'm like, hey, what happened with this? You know what I'm sorry? I miss the deadline.

24:12I own it. I'll fix it. They reflect back what I show them. So I think it also shows in the behavior. And then there are sometimes, Steven, sometimes you'll bring somebody in that just should not be there. And then you also have to make that hard decision because that one person, it will destroy the fabric of the group. One person can do that because everybody else around now watches that interaction and they're thinking, well, Steven, this is in care. I was like, he's letting this guy do this. So I can do this. Right? It's a, I compared to like when I teach. So as I said, I'm an agi -professor.

24:48I teach college. I teach underground criminal justice. First day class, when they come in, I tell them no cell phones. I was like, and the reason I have you do no cell phones is not because I'm, I want you to respect me or this and that. I was like, I owe you an education. I owe you an education. I know some professors don't care, but I tell my students, and stay one. I give a shit. And because I give a shit, I don't want to see the phone in the class. However, I do something else. It's an influence strategy. I give them autonomy. I say, however, you can leave this classroom any time you want to check Facebook, go on Instagram.

25:22I don't care. You have that autonomy, but in here, I want you to respect the sanctity of the classroom because you deserve education and I owe it to you. And I set that standard. And side note, there's a video clip that I showed day one, and you're actually in it. I didn't even know who you were. There's a clip of you and some others. It's a montage of videos together talking about social media and how it impacts you adversely and cell phones and cell phone addiction and all that. And I actually play that clip. And can I tell you it resonates with everybody and I have no problems the rest of the semester.

25:57But I set that tone. And I tell them, if I see the phone, you're going home. No hard feelings. I'm going to pause class and I'm going to send you home. And then if somebody violates it though, I do it. Have you had to build up your, how would I describe it? Mental fortitude, ability to be direct to look someone in the eye to stand up straight. Have you had to build that up over time? Because there'll be a lot of people who look at you and see strength and they see confidence and they see conviction. And they'll wonder, maybe she was just born like that. Or maybe there's something she did along the way that grew that.

26:39A lot of mistakes and a lot of discipline. And it's also the people you surround yourself with will set that example that tone for you. If everybody around me is a mess or everybody around me when there's a stressful situation, they fall apart in their chaotic. I'm going to be that even to the state, Stephen, I sit and I'm very aware of who I have conversations with, whose energy I absorb, whose problems. I saw if somebody care about very deeply there in a situation with someone or relationship with someone who is volatile, chaotic. They've come to me so many times. I said, you need to let go of this person.

27:18I will. I will. They don't. But what happens is they keep coming to me. I'm having this problem and I put them on point. I'm like, I told you what to do. Now you have to sort that out because now what's happening is your stuff is coming into me. And I can't have that because I have to keep this steady. Sometimes even with pain in my heart, I'll have to kind of move that person a little bit to the outer part of the circle. Does not mean I don't care or love them, but it means your chaos has to stay there because it's going to bleed into my life. You're in steady. I'm on steady. But everybody around me, it's like a, I don't want to say it's like a calculus problem, but it's kind of simple math.

27:58Look at who's around you. You are them. They are you. And if you don't like what's going on with you pause and be like, who am I exposed to the most? Sometimes the people we love, they can be very difficult personalities. But even with them, you could say, I can manage this. I don't want to cut this person out. But what do I do? I just move them to the edge of the circle a little bit more. And you have to make sure your core circle is strong. And that's something you have to constantly reassess because sometimes in our lives, this person is good here. And then maybe two, three years later, they're not good anymore.

28:31But what we're tied to is that person who we knew back then, well, they're not the same person now. If you ever shit your around you, it's you because you're allowing it to exist. So think about quietly, how can I create these changes and quietly make these changes, quietly make these boundaries because these are boundaries internal for you. It's interesting. I remember watching a video of Steve Jobs talk about how he built his career. And he said in that video, he said, I built my career by surrounding myself and finding these truly exceptional people, these A players. And the crazy thing is when you find these A players, they like working with other A players and it propagates.

29:10But the opposite is also true, right? If when you build a circle of drama, they'll invite more drama. But if you, I look at my own life and I look at my companies and it's almost as crazy and sort of process of osmosis, when we have chaos and we have an experience and we have drama, we end up hiring and inviting more of the same, whereas when we made those steps to bring in experience, I'm thinking in my early career experience and maturity and composure and a certain, yeah, certain psychological maturity, then that's what we ended up bringing more and more in because like minded people attract like minded people.

29:49And even in the context of our own lives, our circle will just, you know, the fifth person will become the sixth person if that makes sense. Yes, it's like they rotate out and it's okay. You know, it's interesting to I'm wondering too because you do this podcast and you really try to, you're warm, you're open, you want people to speak to you. And I wonder if people that work with you outside of the podcast or people that work with you in your business see the Stephen on the podcast. And they think he's so warm, he's so open, he's so, he's so flexible and they confuse that Stephen with the Stephen who does business and there can be different versions of you, Stephen.

30:24So you could think of it and I do this all the time who I am here doesn't mean I'm the same person here. So when I show up to work, I bring in maybe a little bit more energy, a little bit more directness. When I hire, when I hire people, I'll tell people, hey, listen, because I want to be efficient at what I do. Sometimes I'll be very direct because I want to just get there. Don't get your feelings hurt. If at any point there's something you're not sure about, please tell me, but because I need to get to there, I may be just be direct. So if you think it's going to be hard for you, I'm not the person.

30:54I was like, but I will always appreciate you and I'm always here. So I'll sprinkle in every now and then, hey, I appreciate you. Thank you for this. This is great. That way in the, so there's my warmth. So that in those months, when I'm like, hey, this email you guys wrote, this is, we can't send this out. This needs to be redone. And so nobody's hearing, oh, I'm stupid. She thinks I'm done. I did a horrible job. It's like, no, the email just sucks. Change and fix it so we can move on and do better. But think about the versions you bring in because I'll give you an example, who I am in the classroom is different than who I am on the podcast is different who I am when I do the news.

31:29There are different versions of me and we have to way out those. So if you're going into a business meeting or you're dealing with people who look to you as a supervisor, a little bit of a different Stephen. So they feel it's not what you say to people Stephen, it's how they feel around you. And if they feel like he's not taken any of this, they're going to know it. It's the essence of who we are. It's our ethos is a Greek word. Your way of being. We show, we show people in the context, whatever environment we're in, the version that we want them to see so that we can get the results that we want.

32:09You spent much of your time around. Great leaders. If you think about, you know, you were working for about almost 12 years around people like Bill Clinton and the Black Obama and Michelle Obama. Did you learn anything about leadership from those individuals from observing them and seeing how they conducted themselves and how they communicated. You know, in the UK, we see someone like, who's not a Black Obama is a really incredible leader for many reasons, but I think one of the real standout reasons is his ability to communicate in a certain way, which galvanizes people. And we haven't really seen, I mean, one could actually argue that Trump has his own masterful communication skills.

32:51It's very different, but it seems to work. You know, did you learn anything from being around these presidents about leadership and. So you learn, you learn something from all of them to be president of the United States, whoever you are, I mean, that's a feat enough itself. So they're all they all have something. So it's interesting. The one thing I learned is resilience. You'll be next to the president and this was every president. A former is all of them I said next to you and you're standing next to them and they're about to go on stage or in a big meeting or they're talking to someone and you've got the news on.

33:28And there's some political pendant on the news or channel talking about how stupid they are. He's a dummy. He's this. He's that. That's spreading them. And he looks at it. Yeah. Gets a stuff together, gets a speech together, gets on stage and delivers when the majority of the public would sit there. Oh my god. I'm just respected. I'm this. How can they say that? Nothing. That was amazing to me. So not only did the US Secret Service make me resilient, but to see somebody just take such heat or hear such horrible things said about them on a consistent basis on such public platforms and you have the ability to wake up, walk outside the White House, your head up, get in your limo, go on stage, go do this press conference.

34:15And you're like, it's just going to happen. There's no. There's no school for that. And so because I was around these these these these personalities. I'm like, yeah, well, if he can do it, I can do it. He was the most impressive. I have to tell you they all were there was no one that wasn't like they all had their their gift. You know, and even Trump, you brought up Trump before. I think what people like about him. He's just direct. He's very direct and he just lands it. He says what he says and he doesn't care. There's a there's something and I'm Switzerland because in the US Secret Service, we actually weren't even allowed to talk about if we voted for someone.

34:55We were very apolitical. And ever we stayed that way. But from an objective standpoint, people just like the fact that he just says it and he doesn't care. And sometimes I think people envy that. Did you did you see how they made their decisions? Did you ever observe them making tough decisions? Yes, all the time you'd be behind closed door meetings. You would hear their ability. Give me an example of this. I'm interested, you know, when the stakes are that high because a lot of us on a day -to -day basis are making fairly consequential decisions, especially in the context of running the most powerful nation in the world.

35:29So I'm interested when the stakes are that high when you've got to get a summer bin Laden in a compound in Pakistan or you know, there's a there's a terrorist attack how these individuals make decisions. They're not driven by emotion. They're very rational based decisions. I weigh the pros, I weigh the cons, I look at the facts. So you very rarely, if ever and I could probably say I've never heard a US president yell ever. I've never heard a US president lose his himself. You know, when you hear them debate or talk about things, it's a debate. I can look at you, you can look at me, like Stephen, I don't think this is right.

36:04And you say, Evie, well, why isn't this right? If we do it this way, this way, this way, this can happen. Yeah, but Stephen, if you do it like that, what if this happens and these guys die? Well, I don't see it like that. Well, so I see it this way. It's like, we're going to have to figure it out. But you're also with people who have the ability to sit and withstand their feelings are not so fragile. They're ego not so soft that you can actually have this debate. And that's important for you to have in your circle. Can you have these debates with people? I would call them competing. There's two great researchers in the UK, Dr.

36:37Lawrence and Emily Allison, and they architect people as animals. And one of the things I talk about is someone who's in control in setting the agenda is someone who's lying. I'm lying. And so sometimes we have to bring a little bit more line in with us, or somebody who's competing is somebody who's capable of kind of debating with you, but it doesn't have to be ugly. I don't have to raise my voice or get in your face to break something down. I can sit there and be rational. The problem the majority people have is they're so invested in emotional. They bring their feelings hurt. They're feelings into it.

37:11Even something you just brought up Trump. And he had like a little bit of a look like Trump because everyone's so emotional when they hear that name. Pull back and be objective. It's like, let me look at this from a factual standpoint. I'm going to lay this out. I'm going to lay this out. Let let this lay out. When you can make decisions based on facts and rationality, the emotions go out the window. You don't want to be an emotional decision maker. It never goes well because you're not thinking clearly. You're like just going with the wave. And it's those moments when you say something you shouldn't say that afterward you regret it.

37:45Why did that person get me to say that? I went in with this intention. I got a got pulled in this direction. This person got me to say that. No, it's always on you because you're the governor of you. The first time you got exposed to a president and you spent time around a president. Were there any things that surprised you? Any things that before then you had sort of mis sort of ideas of what they were like and how they behaved that you realize suddenly were like popular misconceptions that most people believe about presidents and so on. I don't know if there's a misconception, but my first time they call it standing post.

38:19It was for president, a George W. Bush. He's an office. I'm standing post for him somewhere. What does that mean? Oh, standing post is when you're new, you don't get into like the close, close circle of the president. It's, Evie, here's the door. And the president's going to walk through this door and like eight hours from now, we're going to sweep it, check for bombs and everything and your job is to stand. Watch the door for eight hours. Nobody comes through. Right? That's it. That's called post standing. You secure the perimeter. It's mundane. Right? But you do it as part of the job, especially when you start.

38:51So I have my one of my first post standing things I'm standing by the door and the head agent senior agents coming around checking on us. Hey, you okay? You okay? You need anything? It's briefing us. And the one agent comes and he's like, you knew right? I'm like, yeah, well, I'm sort of new. I mean, I had to start under Clinton. But Bush was my real, I don't know what I put my real hard core assignment. And he's like, where's your phone? I said, it's here, sir. He's like, is that thing off or on silent? I said, yeah, he's like, don't let Bush hear your phone. Go off. And I'm like, what do you mean?

39:20He's like, he's your phone. Go off. You're going home. He's like, he doesn't want to hear phones. We want like a respectable environment, a quiet, quiet environment that thing goes off. You're gone. He sends people home. And I was like, what? Why would he get so upset with the phone? I didn't quite understand it. Now I understand it. Because if everybody's doing this and distracted, nobody's focused. There's things going on. It's the energy, the vibration. He was trying to be a leader and set boundaries for the environment he wanted. Everybody present. Everybody's focused. Nobody's on their phones, no shenanigans.

39:53That really stuck with me. And you wouldn't make sure I took that thing out, put it all the way down. I was like, the president of the United States is not sending me home. And they're like, he does it. So though, that's something like I always remembered. And it's a boundary. And it's just something he imposed throughout the environment. I remember thinking, wow, the president of the United States actually sits in, I don't want to say control something so minute, but something so small can impact or create this ripple effect. Of the environment that he is trying to cultivate. Why did you get that job?

40:30Because when I was reading through the numbers around how many people sort of apply to do the initial training. And then how many people ultimately get to be that that close to these major issues. It seems like very few people get there. Could you quantify that for me? How many people dropped out during training? How many people passed? And how many people? How like rare is it to get to the position that you got to? So they spend like tens of thousands of dollars, maybe even a hundred and hundred K. But the time you get hired on you. So to understand how they select you. So once you get selected like you've gone through a rigorous process.

41:10So for example, I started in the NYPD when I went in, it was 1500 of us. And people would just quit left and right. And they wanted you to quit. When I went to the US Secret Service Academy. At that point, it was like 54 of us. But you were hand selected. So when you apply. And I think they only take 1 % of all applications that they get, which is like it's easier to get into Harvard than it isn't to get into the service. So out of all the applications, they only you only select 1 % to even look at. Then they decide, OK, I'm going to put this person through the process. Then they make you fill in all this paperwork.

41:43Stephen, I can't even tell you the amount of weeks it took me right essays. How you're going to handle problems. Hey, they'll give you problem scenarios. And they'll say, you have this problem. How would you handle this? And it will give you like you've been here. What would you do here? And they have you write out essays and break down what you would do. Then your paperwork. So they take your paperwork. They go through all that stuff. Then they do background checks on you criminal checks background checks. They talk to all your neighbors. When I was applying, I had studied overseas when I was in college.

42:17And one of the semesters I did abroad was in Italy. They sent an agent to Italy to speak to my college professor in Rome to ask him what kind of student I was. So they do such an invasive look into you. You do a polygraph. You take a written test. It's called the T .E .A. exam. I think they've changed it. But it was like in the US, it's like they call it the SATs. It was the SATs on steroids. That thing was so hard. I thought for sure I failed it. I was like, there's no way I passed this thing. I squeaked through that. And there's all these things. So by the time you get offered, they give you it's a conditional offer of employment.

42:54Every you've passed everything. So we're going to let you try to go to training. And then if you pass that, then you go on probation for like I think it's three years. And then you're good. Then you're truly in. But they, but the time you get to this process where you're actually going to training because they've dumped so much money in you. They want you're at that point where you're typically going to get through it because they don't want you to quit because they've dropped a lot of money on you. So at that point, they've really invested in you because they believe that you can meet the standards and be part of a culture that they want.

43:33So it is hard, but they do kick people out. It happens all the time. What is it about you then? If you reflect in hindsight now and go the reason I got through all of that is because I am. I didn't know any better. I didn't know any better not to apply. I didn't know any better to know that it's 98 % men. I didn't know any better to think that I couldn't do it. My, my, my, my naiveness as a young woman or girl, that's what helped me get to that job. I didn't think about it. I was like, why not? What were they looking for? They look for a lot of different things. I will tell you unequivocally they look for trustworthiness.

44:12If you line your stuff and they catch you, which later on, I became one of their polygraph examiners and my job became. I became the person to see if you were trustworthy. If you had lied to us, I was like the last layer of defense. That was a big thing. Integrity is a big thing because their mindset was if you can lie about your application form or something that happened to you when you're 1920 or something dumb you did, then you're going to lie to us about anything. Because it is like you, if you can't own up to your stuff, you're going to make mistakes here and we can't trust you. So, integrity is a massive thing.

44:42The other thing that really like, they call it BQAs, but better qualified applicants. That's what you get when they don't want you like, hey, we have better qualified applicants that competitive wise. Drugs was a big thing. People using, like so drugs played a big role when people had a lot of usage that would be, or when I got on, it was like, barely nothing. That would be a quick thing to get you disqualified. Because obviously we work crime criminal cases. So, what if I'm working a counterfeit case, criminals don't really stay in one lane. They do counterfeit money and they do drugs and they do other things.

45:21So, they have to know that you can work these cases and they don't have to worry about you. You said you were working in as an interrogator. I read that you traveled the world for roughly about eight years for the Secret Service doing polygraph tests and conducting interrogations as a polygraph test. You're trying to figure out how people are lying. You've got a machine in front of you, right? That's telling you, giving you a bunch of readings and data on what's going on physiologically inside their body. But then also, you know, in interrogations, but as a polygraph examiner, you're looking at them and you must have a bit of a sort of hunch based on like pattern recognition when you're looking at their body and how they're behaving.

45:58Do you think you can predict or do you think you can now tell if someone's lying to you or if they're being dishonest? It happens a lot. When you speak to people, you can, I guess you can look at it this way. You can figure out who's full of BS and who isn't. One, you feel it. I think you're intuition is a huge thing and we dismiss it. Two people show you. You create baselines on people. So, if I sit and I speak to someone and the whole time they're speaking, like when you talk to Stephen, most of your hands are usually here. You go on the iPad, you do this. That's your baseline, right? You do a lock -eye contact.

46:32I've got Stephen, right? Now, let's say I ask you later a question and maybe it's a question you don't like, right? I ask you, like tell me about your employees at work or tell me about the most difficult employee you had and how did you deal with it. And it's something maybe that affects you. You don't want to talk about it. You don't want to be honest with me. You might be like, you know, Evie, and you look down and I'm like, well, you know, I'll see a shift. This whole time I'm talking to Stephen, he's locked in with me. He's got a certain posture. I ask him this question. He just showed me something different.

47:05Why? That's it. Why? And then now I know to be curious that when you're done asking or answering my question, I come in with good follow -up questions. Because you're showing me something is happening here. Well, most people don't do, Stephen, is they see something, it registers and they let it go. They don't follow up with another question and then another question and then another question. You don't want to be nosy, but you want to be curious. Who's the greatest liar you ever met? Can you recall an instance of meeting someone who was just a really great liar? I had this one guy. He was doing, he wasn't a big scam, but he was doing ATM fraud.

47:48So you know how you go to the ATMs and you, you go, you put in your card, you take out money. So he was going on to the ATMs and he would put us on a skimming device. It was a very, I don't want it, but a very primitive way to steal money. So he would put on his own skimmer on the ATM. So when you swipe your card, you're swiping it on his skimmer. So it captures all the info. So this guy was just kind of like very low level basic criminal. He's going around to the old ATMs in Brooklyn and he's doing this skimming device. So on the ATM, they take photos of you. So I've got a photo of this guy. I've got him.

48:22He's got his hat on. I think it was like a New York Knicks hat at the time. He's got his hat on. I've got his full frontal. We found the guy. We matched the prints to the prints on the ATM. Boom. I've got my guy. I got my photo. This is easy day. I put him in the interview room. I sit him down. Hey, you know, I want to talk to you about this. First, I do like a report building. What's your name? Where are you from? Talk to me. Super nice. Super nice guy. Yes, mom. Okay, mom. You know, and he was from another country. I remember. So we're talking. He's looking to me. Yes. And he's very, very wants to help me.

48:54Yes, I want to help you. And I'm so, you know, yes. Of course, like very cooperative, overly cooperative. So that's my red flag. I'm like, this guy's trying too hard. And so I want to ask you about this ATM scam. Oh, no, I don't know anything. I don't know anything. I'm like, no, how about here? And I just start revealing a couple of things. And I've got my photo in my background. I'm like, I'm going to bust out this photo. This guy's going to be like, yep, that's me. Sorry. So as I'm doing this, I'm hitting a wall. No, no, no, I'm sorry, mom. I wish I could help you. No, no, no. So I got the photo of the guy.

49:26Do you know he showed up to my interview wearing the same hat? And I'm thinking, I'm locked. I'm tight. Pull out the photo and I'm like, oh, yeah. What's this? Put it down on the table. He looks at it. Oh, yeah. That's me. It looks like me. But yeah, wow, I could see. No, it's not me. It was him. I got him. Nothing. Nothing. I will never forget him. Just great liar. Most people waiver this not this guy. He was locked tight. He stuck to that story. Never give a confession. Thankfully, we had enough to charge him. It was ATM fraud. But look at me. I'm sorry. And you know, one of the things people would do.

50:10Doesn't doesn't mean that people are always lying when they do this. But one of the things I would see a lot of guilty people do. And he did this lot. I swear to God. I swear to God. God is my witness. God knows that's not me. And so we would call a divine intervention. Whenever you'd hear somebody do that, you knew it's like, okay, there's a problem because it's kind of like you're saying, why do you need God to come in to vouch for you? Or sometimes we actually have people coming with Bibles or Rosary beads. Whenever you saw that in the waiting room, that person coming in, I was like, they don't even poly them.

50:40They did it. Because they're trying so hard to connect to that. I'm a religious person. I would never do these things. And those were a little red flags. Of course, I would do my interview. But in my back on my head, I'm like, you probably did it. What about other things like him? You're very good at keeping eye contact. Yes. Is that such a thing as too much eye contact? It depends on the person. But I think you also need to be you. So I make eye contact. Here's the other thing. When I make eye contact with you, I show you one I'm confident in myself. I also show you I deserve to make eye contact with you that I am relevant and I don't need to look away or hide because I deserve to be here and I deserve to be having a conversation with you.

51:27Right? And that I matter. That's one thing. And I also convey on Faraday and confidence. You don't have to say anything to people. You show them. I look at you. I'm comfortable to look at you. But I can also show you warmth. Right? I can connect with you and engage with you and be present and listen to you. The other thing eye contact does. It also sends the message to you that you matter to me. That I'm here and that I am present with you and that I'm listening to you. That I see you and that I want to try to understand you. So eye contact is wonderful because it does two things. It makes you feel relevant.

52:03And it makes me relevant also that I'm relevant enough to sit here and look at you and I speak. And it's another way to convey my authority without having to tell you, hey, you know what? I'm in charge. I need to tell you. I show you. What about body language? You know, because I'm thinking about people that I know that are particularly low in self -esteem and they struggle with eye contact. But then also sometimes it's almost like they make themselves smaller in their body language and stuff like that. And I was just thinking like, I guess what I'm thinking here is, can I trick myself? Can I trick myself and other people into thinking I'm confident if I'm not?

52:42Is, you know, because there's all this stuff about like the Superman posture where you can kind of make yourself bigger and looking people's eyes. But when I reflect on my early years when I was least confident. For some reason, I couldn't get anyone I was pursuing. So I remember there was these five girls that I over the course of about since I was from 14 to I'd say 23 that I was really into all five of them weren't interested in me that we would like we'd get a little bit far down the line. So there was like a little bit of sort of initial interest. But then I would always lose them. And I never knew why I never knew why but then it changed that about 24.

53:24And it doesn't correlate to like money or success necessarily it correlates to my opinion of myself. And it was almost like magic when I look back and I thought, if I can how like I got rejected over and over and over again. And when I got to the point that I actually believed that I was good enough even though I read all the books I read up all the pickup artistry books I read the game I read all of these books. I had the tips tactics and tricks to fake it. But I but it wasn't until I genuinely believed that I was high value that I had real success with the opposite sex. And so it left me with this feeling that you can read all the tips of tricks that I contact the body language.

54:03But maybe none of it works because there's a thousand other nonverbal micro expressions that are communicating your low value you don't believe in yourself you're not worthy. That overpower that we can't really control. And the reason it changed at 24 25 26 27 is because I genuinely felt like I was good enough for them. Like so you know this is why I reflect on this idea of like I know people will click podcasts like this because they want the tips the tricks they want to get from a to Z in three seconds. No. They want to get they want to get from low confident low self esteem or that to at the altar with a king.

54:41They want to do it. They want to know how to do it in the space of this conversation so that they can end this conversation and walk down the aisle tomorrow with their Prince charming. That's what people want. They want to sort of complex things with short simple solutions. Does it exist. I know this because I know that if I titled this like if you title a podcast six pack abs in seven minutes. People are going to get better. But if you titled it six pack abs in three years of work and die restriction. Fucking no one's going to click. You know, it's the same thing for here and I'm often wondering like how how does someone change the core of themselves, whether it's as a leader a manager in a relationship that very core of you because in my life it was actually just this like long grueling process of building myself.

55:28It was at the like retiring from carrying so much about actually getting any of these people and just building up this real internal fortress. And then everything else took the body language that I contact the way I walk into a room. It all took care of itself. And you know, but it doesn't tell books that like there's no one's going to buy that book. You know what though it is all the little things we do that help us get there. There's no magic thing. That's why you're like it took me time. And what it was is all the little things along the lines that that came. It's there's no magic thing people could sometimes come to me and they're like every what's the secret and I tell them there's no secret.

56:10The change that you want in your life. It's all the little things that you do. It's like think of it like compound interest. Right. I had to do this and then I had this layer and then this layer and then this layer and then this layer. It's like the sheets of paper. You put one sheet. It's light two sheets are light three sheets. But you put a thousand sheets. Now you've got weight. That's how we are. We're layers and we have to add to those layers. There's no quick thing. You know when you know you're going to get there. When you're sovereign. When you feel like I don't need anybody. It's wonderful to have human beings around me and I think connection is it's wonderful.

56:45But if your goal is I need someone to complete me you're done. And I think also it's so wild because I'm thinking about my youth as you're talking about yours. When I became sovereign. Like where I'm like I'm good enough. I'm good as I am. You become a magnet. I became a magnet. People like why I wanted that. I want to be around that. I want to be around her. Everywhere. People like how do you it's like because I believe in me. But it took time to believe in me. And when you became sovereign. Yes. I didn't want to say. But how did you behavior change those micro behaviors? I stopped chasing things and chasing people.

57:22I stopped looking for approval. I stopped trying to people please. And I just I trusted myself. I also stopped taking inventory from everybody asking everybody their opinion. And I also though. But I also had I dealt with a lot of rejection. A lot of like rejection. A lot of people not agreeing with me. I gossip growing up. There was a lot. I took a lot of heavy hits. And those things made me resilient. Those things taught me to like not. You know to stay my course. Like you know when I've shared this before. But when I became an agent I put in front of my PD. The community of friends and people I had around me.

57:57I thought it was ridiculous. I thought I was silly. I remember after when I started dating after I became an agent. There was one guy friend of mine. A good friend of mine's brother. She was trying to hook me up with him. This is before my husband. My husband knows everything. And so I'm like, all right. You know he was a nice Greek guy. I'm Greek. I'm safe. I'm keeping it in the community because you're supposed to. So I'm talking to him. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm thinking like I went through so much to become a special agent with the US Secret Service. And you know he said to me. He's like, so like when you get married, you're going to quit that job and you know ditch this.

58:32I mean, like how long are you going to do this? Like he spoke about it. Like it was nothing. Like it was trivial. And I heard that and I was just like, wait, what? It's like dude, you couldn't get into the secret service of like. Like with your like there's no like with all your might. And when he was like said that to me and his job, he owned the diner. He owned the diner food. His success was wealth and money and some cultures, including mine and the community I was in. They measured success with money. Like what I was doing was not successful. But I had the ability to be sovereign enough to like not listen.

59:08I was just like, no, that's not my belief system, my moral compass. And I stopped caring. Then I dated another guy who knew I was in the secret service. I really liked this guy. I was this Italian kid. And I'm thinking he's going to be so proud of me. I got in and we went on this date and he had just broken up with someone. And he was so uncomfortable around me. Why? Because I was an agent. I was like a freak show. It was weird. I think today's a little different maybe at that time. And do you think men struggle with strong women? I think certain men do. I think I think men who are not confident in themselves.

59:48If you're steady, you don't care what somebody else is. You're cheering for them. I ended up dating an agent and marrying him. So because my husband's so steady and sovereign in himself, I could do whatever. I hate be like, you go. You had your first child at 45 years old. I had my daughter at 40, excuse me, 46. My daughter is 18 months old. You're daughter gets to 18. And she's, she's just can't get out of bed. She's lazy. She's blaming the world. She's saying, listen, this is this person's fault and this person's fault. And I, you know, I just can't be bothered. Where'd you start? Well, look, if I've done a good job on my husband, I have done a good job.

1:00:31And again, it's not 100 % us. We should have hopefully by that point put in certain structures in place to prevent that. I'll give you a small example. I've never put an iPhone in front of her. I have no working television in my house. Because I control what she absorbs. Not the internet. And I'm going to hold on to that as long as possible. Because I've seen with these cell phones, I'm a grown -ass adult and I look at stuff and it impacts me. And I'm like, I can't look at this. Around follow things. I'll go off social. I don't want to see it. I cover news. I cover crime. Child, I cover really heinous things.

1:01:05And there are times where I do the news. I do the news. See even I don't watch it. So there are little things that I can do. So up until this point 18 months, it's a lot more work for me and my family. There's no social device. There's no cell phone. I control that. I kind of look at it. I want to know what what's feeding her mind. The way I choose to make her food. I choose what goes in the mind. I control it. And a lot of parents will come to me. And I'll tell them if you're not comfortable dropping your kid in the middle of Times Square to talk to whoever, then you get that thing out of their hands because now somebody else is putting ideas in your kid's head.

1:01:42I have no control over that. Zero. And that's powerful. That's one. And especially we see it affect little girls. And again, I'm a grown woman and social media impacts me in the moment. I'm like, I put that thing away. That's one. No TV in my house. Because TV is like, when I was a kid, you had cartoons Saturday morning. That was it. And you had to wait for those cartoons. I mean, I was like tomorrow or cartoons. So this instant gratification process that kids have, that's why you hear like, help me get to hear fast. She's never going to learn how to work hard. She's going to be lazy. She's going to lay in bed.

1:02:17She's going to get depressed quicker. She's going to have anxiety. So I'm doing everything I can to impact those things. There are little seeds. It's little things. So that by the time she's 18, I hope in my heart. I have done my best, but I also understand I'm 50 % she's 50%. So as much as I try to help navigate her, she's going to be her own person. And I'm going to have to listen, understand what her value systems are, what she cares about. But her exposure to them is Ray. I regulate that even the school she's going to go to. I sit there. I'm already thinking about where I'm going to put her to school.

1:02:56And I don't like it. So I want her to public school. I don't know. I don't want her being like, mom, I want to Gucci belt and you know labels and all this stuff. I was like, I don't want her to think like that. I want to have a different mindset. I'm like, so I'm creating in my head. How do I do that? Another thing I do. Super small. I take her to Greece with me every summer. Do you know where we go in Greece and the village village? I'm talking like bathroom in the back, hardcore, like, rugged at my parents group and villages. I grew up in that. I lived in that in the summer June, July, August, September.

1:03:27I was in the village. In fact, the bathroom was connected to the chicken coop. Would you let her fly business class? No. The only time I fly business class is when somebody else is paying. Why? Because I'm saving my money. Because business class is expensive because I work really hard and I'm okay to sit in the back. So business class. That's a be really good reason why I'm going to dish out that money for business class for myself. Let alone my daughter economy. Economy. My poor kid, right? She can grow up. I'm like, you can keep all your stuff to yourself. One of the things we were chatting about before we started recording was that your favorite days when you work out, you go to the gym.

1:04:11Why is that so important to you? Why is exercise so central to everything that you do in your mind? I think there's a school of the mind and the body are two separate things. A lot of people will be like, I'm working on my mind. I listen to podcasts, which is great, but they don't work out their body. And in these things live together. I learned in the secret service, like these things were, they're married. So if you're depressed and you're not getting off the sofa. There's a problem. Your body needs help. I work with, I train now with Don Saladino, even me with all my experience. Like sometimes we need somebody to push us.

1:04:50And accountability is a big thing. So I would tell people if you're struggling, have somebody be accountable for you, Don who I work with and I train with, he makes me take a photo of every meal I eat and text it to him. He's like, I want to see what you're putting in your mouth. And every time I'm about to have something that I shouldn't, I think to myself, I got to send this to Don. So he's going to police it. So having somebody help you is also a good thing. But your body is your temple. You get one of these. We take better care of our cars than we do this. And then we wonder, why am I depressed?

1:05:24Because you have to move this. You have to take care of it. Everything in the US Secret Service was about performance. This is your, this is your home. It houses your mind. It houses your soul. And we treat it like garbage. And we give it garbage. When I run and I work out at night, all the stress, I'm like any other human being, I accumulate stress, people's angst, stuff coming at me. And I need a way to release it. So at night I go run and I let it out. There's been times in my life. I can think of two distinct times. I remember once, and I don't remember what it was, but I had such a stressful, hard day.

1:05:59Stephen, I went to the track to run. I remember was freezing. It was winter was snowing. And I was just like, I was just like on the verge of just like just pure emotion and rage. I started running. I was talking to myself. I was running. I'm bawling my eyes are bowling. I look like a crazy person to the outside world. But I ran it all out. And when I was done, I was back to me. The physical element of our body is such an important thing. And we treat them as two separate entities. And you have to take care of what houses your soul and your mind. You strike me as someone that is pretty fearless.

1:06:44I say pretty because we all have fear and fear is a useful natural emotion. But you're someone that clearly has built up a more productive relationship with fear than most people. When you think back of your sort of secret service experience, was there a day where you were more scared than another day? What was the most scared you were during your time in the secret service? You know, I had this one scenario, and I don't think I ever talked about it. I'm in downtown Manhattan. I'm with my colleague, and we're driving to Secret Service meeting. We're going to go rest somebody the next day and we were going to the briefing with this other department.

1:07:21We were going to do our pre -aressed briefing about how we're going to go in tactically. So we're driving to this meeting. And as we're going to this meeting, we're in downtown Manhattan. Somebody runs out of a, it was a jewelry store. This man runs out of a jewelry store and these other people are out there running with him and they're yelling. And they see us and I guess they realize that we were in a police car even though it was undercover, they just stand out. They're like, how palp? Get him, get him. And the way they were acting, you think you would have shot somebody, shot somebody. And we can see as you see them screaming and yelling, how palp?

1:07:54You see this other person running away. So my partner flips on the lights. We start driving and we're chasing this person now. I can't see this person. I see their back. They have a hoodie on. They're running from the posture of it. It looked like a male and it looked like a guy running. So he's running lights on. We get on the thing, stop running, stop running. He's not listening to anything. He goes, he turns the black. We're still chasing him. Then he turns into a parking garage in New York City that there's parking garage and they go all the way underground. So he turns in. So we can't go in with the car.

1:08:29We're going in blind. We pull up. We get ourselves out. And as we're going in, we're clearing people out, but you could also see people running out. I guess it could tell something was wrong. People are leaving. And now we're thinking this is kind of a gun. Like what's going on? Because people are responding very agitatedly to the scenario. We go in, we pull everybody out, everybody get out, get out. So we go to the bottom level of the parking garage where we believe is that lights are dark. And we go in, police come out, police come out. He's not listening. We're looking for him underneath all these cars.

1:09:00And then I see him. He's underneath the car. And I go to my partner. I sing it to my partner because he's like on the other side of my K. I'm like, he's right down. He's right there. And we can't see him. My partner's like, I'm going to go around. So my partner goes around. And he can't listen to me. My partner. So I blame him a little bit. He went too prematurely before we kind of figured out what what he goes to go grab him from behind. So now my partner's out in the open. This guy's out there. I see him. I don't know if he has a weapon. We have enough to be ran from us. Right. So all these things are escalating.

1:09:31Let me see your hands. Let me see your hands. Nothing. Let me see your hands. Put your hands out. I can see you. I see you under the car. Let me see your hands. Because now I'm worried he's going to shoot my partner because my partner's out in the open trying to get to him. Let me see your hands. So then I pull my gun out. And I pointed at him. Let me see your hands. Let me see your hands. And I'm thinking, please show your hands because now I'm in this cross between if this guy have a gun. And if he has a gun, any second, he's going to kill my partner. And I had a choice. So I was like, do I?

1:10:02Do you shoot? Because I think he's going to shoot my partner because he's not showing me his hands and he's fidgeting. Do I not shoot? Give him the benefit of the doubt. And then he does shoot my partner. And now I'm responsible for the death of my partner or if he doesn't have a gun. Am I responsible because I just shot him and he didn't have a gun. And you're doing this this thing in your head. And there's no way to win. And this happening in seconds. I couldn't see his hands. I chose not to shoot. I'm praying that he doesn't shoot my partner. He has no gun. He's not showing his hands. And then I'm like, I'm going to shoot you.

1:10:36Please show your hands. Show your hands. And then my partner goes from behind. And then the guys like, fine, fine. He's like, put your gun away. You screaming. He puts his hands out. My partner pulls them up from the back. And we get him. Then we come around. I'm pissed. I am so pissed. We sit him down. We cuff him. I pull his hoodie out. 16 year old kid. I search his pockets. You know what he did? He sold one. He stole one of those big gold crosses. That is all he did. Because I pulled out his idea. I checked his ID. I was like, do you know I almost shot you for this? Do you know we chased you down for this?

1:11:11You almost died for the stupid cross. So we call the cops. They come. That stayed with me because I almost killed an innocent person for what? For nothing. That was probably very powerful. I was afraid. I've been scenarios where the death was on my receiving end. And I was okay with that. But I was no K with this because I thought there was a split second why I was deciding do I shoot him because he's not following my instructions. I cannot see his hand. My partner's out there. He could kill my partner. I don't know if he has a gun. I had all these escalating reasons to think that. And I chose not to shoot.

1:11:48What is your mental health like generally and throughout your career? Because people talk about mental. They talk about anxiety, depression, low moods and stuff. Have you ever experienced what people describe as mental health disorders? I don't this is terrible. I don't think so. I think I'm trying to think. I mean like any human being I go through moments, but I don't let myself live there. I guess I always feel like I'm the governor. I will say this. It is okay to be depressed. It is okay to have anxiety. It is okay to feel bad. I think maybe that's the issue because we're in a space where oh, you're depressed.

1:12:28You get something wrong with you. You have anxiety. Whoa. I had anxiety every day when I went to training. I always had anxiety when I put my vest on and I was protecting the present. I would carry my MP5, which is like this weapon that basically like could go into automatic. You could cause serious damage. I had anxiety. I'm like, man, it's today the day. Those are okay things to have. So I feel like maybe we should change the narrative and normalize feeling bad. Instead of making people feel like you're sad. Take this pill. You have anxiety. Something's wrong with that. Why is that bad? Why do I have to be like every ridiculous commercial?

1:13:05Because in the US we we we advertise prescription medication where I'm smiling all the time and happy. My barometer for life is not to be happy. The moments that I've done the most amazing things in my life, I've not been happy. I've been fulfilled. I've been like, man, I just did that. When I woke up, when I would wake up at 3 a .m. to go to the White House to stamp posts for 10 hours outside the Oval Office and the freezing cold in the winter. I wasn't happy. It's freezing. I was cold. But you know what? I was like, man, I'm gonna get here. Was there every day when you thought the president's life was at risk and you were around him?

1:13:38Was there ever a moment where you thought every day? But was there a particular day where you thought no? Oh, we're screwed. All that he was gonna be attacked. Was there ever a moment where you genuinely thought there was a genuine threat on his life? Just wondering. Yes and no. Yes in that. Like when you would do outdoor events, like certain events where he was very vulnerable. Like he's speaking to a crowd of 10 ,000 people. There's so many things that could go wrong. Right. So those events, like there was definitely that threat level was heightened. But we had just put together. Man, the agency was just such a competent agency and there are so many layers of security put in.

1:14:24Things that you don't, you don't see, but it's the snipers. It's the counter salt team. It's the air restrictions. No planes flying above ground because we put those into place. It's even radiation detection. Nuclear. There's so many things we do that you the average person has no idea about. The protocols we put in place. So I can't say the president per se because I feel like he got all the bells and whistles. But maybe there were times where it was hard to protect certain people and that that's where I felt it was harder. When I protected Barbara Bush Bush's daughter, when I had heard that was hard because I did not have the resources that you would have for president.

1:15:09And she wanted to be a young girl and go out and date and go to clubs and go to Coachella and do these things. I had to take it to Coachella and I'm thinking. I got to keep her alive and there's you know it's Coachella and how many people are Coachella's like 10 ,000 hundreds. I don't even know what this point. So those scenarios were usually the most uneasy for me because I had limited resources and it was a very different environment and they want to live their life. Is there anything that you can't talk about? Sure. If you ask me something, I can't answer. I'll tell you. But I'm interested to know what you're unable to talk about.

1:15:47You can't talk about the cars. Okay. What the way that the cars work and the security system. Yeah. The way technical mechanical things with the cars because you have to think of it this way. Anything I share here, you're going to have people that follow you that listen, but you're also going to have bad actors who listen to these interviews together information because they want to carry out in the attack. I always think like that. So there are certain things you can't share. I can't share certain things about Air Force One. I can't share certain things about like how we positioned ourselves.

1:16:17Like even though you'll see agents around the president, there's a schematic that we follow that the average person won't understand how we move our vehicles, how they're positioned and why, how we how we would fight an attacker. Like there's scenarios we play and movements that exist. It's like a dance. Do you have to sign a form when you leave or before you start to say that I'll never speak about certain things? Do you know initially know there was no such thing because there was such a level of trust. You didn't need it. You didn't need it. And then one agent and I love him. He came out and he started talking about things he shouldn't have talked about.

1:16:57And as soon as he did that, the NDAs came, which is a little sad because up until that point, it was really just everything we did was based on the honor system. Did you ever have any form of imposter syndrome? You know, we talked earlier that when you joined the secret service, there was what 98 % men or something crazy? It was. And so as a woman in that environment, I know that you undwent a lot of prejudice, a lot of discrimination, a lot of comments. Did that ever leave you feeling like you were somewhere you weren't supposed to be or what, you know, as they describe it as imposter syndrome?

1:17:33So I hate that word. And I don't let it live in my head. And it's like, who invented that word? I think there's like these two researchers and I want to say I could be completely wrong. So everybody be kind to me if I'm making mistake. But I had looked into it and I can't remember. And I think it was two researchers who invented it specifically for women. So I don't have imposter syndrome. I earned to where I got. I killed myself to get there. So I always felt like, oh, how did I get here? But I'm like, I got here. So I never let that live in my head and take up real estate. So one is my neat, my naïveness and my ignorance allowed me to get to where I was.

1:18:13Because I didn't have this narrative. I shouldn't be there by who's standard. That's one. The other thing is, I'm not going to dismiss and say that I did not endure difficult things. Of course I did. I was a woman. Yes, these things happened. I remember once I was at a briefing. I was a brand new. Where at this one briefing, it's me and all these guys. And then there's a boss giving a briefing to everybody. He locked eye contact with everybody except me. He wouldn't look at me the whole briefing. After every and then I ended up having it for a boss for a lot of things. It's like I wasn't there.

1:18:48He'd look at everybody else. I knew intuitively. It's like he feels weird looking at me. Because I'm a woman. Like, okay. I was like, I still deserve to be here. In those environments, if someone's not, if you feel like your manager or your boss or your CEO or even like a colleague, isn't showing you respect. I've read your story so I know that this happened multiple times in your life where there'd be someone around you. That wasn't showing you the respect you deserve. And I have a lot of people that come up to me and they say I'm struggling because my boss is not showing me respect. And my colleague, this colleague isn't listening to me or all these kinds of things.

1:19:30Where does your mind default to when I say that? Where do you go to in your mind? What's your action A? So with the last one you just said, my colleagues don't listen to me. I would come back and I would say, give me an example of where they don't listen to you. So I would say to you, when you do speak, do you look at people when you speak? Do you project your voice? So it's called parallel linguistics. Everyone's so focused on what they say like reading my notes or reading my agenda. They don't think about the tone pitch of the voice. How are you delivering this? Are you projecting your voice?

1:20:01What do you talk about? Do you talk like this when you speak? I have a question. I just want to share something. People are going to like glaze over. I have a question. Or even just the tone. How you under? Hi, I'm Evie. Hi, I'm Evie. Feels different. Those are simple things you can do to make sure people hear you. The other thing is, I say this a lot when I speak to companies because communication is a big thing. Don't just talk to talk. There's this thing out there, especially with women. What's like, make sure they hear you. Make sure your voice is heard at the table. I'm fine with that. Do you have something beneficial to say or value to say?

1:20:44If you don't, don't say anything. Have the meetings I go to, I don't speak. I have nothing to say. It's so interesting. I am from being in many boardrooms for many, many years, probably 15 years being in marketing boardrooms for 15 years. About 10 years being in marketing boardrooms with CEOs, with my team, with lots of different people, lots of different teams. I've had thousands and thousands of meetings. I eventually observe something in myself, which is a bit of a prejudice that I have, which is the minute someone speaks. Based on their contribution score, which is like a credit score, based on all of the contributions you made in the past.

1:21:22In those first couple of seconds, if their previous contributions were all valuable, everyone in the room would stop and look and lean in. But if they developed a low contribution score because they'd continually talked for the sake of talking, i .e. they're just like, I'll give you an example. In my New York office back in the day, there was this one guy who, we'd be in a brainstorm, trying to solve a problem. And he would start speaking. And you'd see, by the way, he started speaking. I hadn't actually thought through what he was going to say. What about if we put a, I don't know, like a pop -up, maybe we'll do some TikToks.

1:22:06And so, honestly, what I then observed from that individual is every time they open their mouth, people would instantly basically dismiss the idea because they had such a low contribution score. And like we all have a contribution score. You have one, I have one, based on the last 10 years of when we've opened our mouth, how valuable it was to the people around us. Like that individual, whenever he spoke, I would see the person sat next to him who I won't name, almost like Loki rolled their eyes in the first five seconds and shut it down before he'd even got it out. And then there was this other guy called, in my UK office called Paul, never spoke, like never really said anything, super mature, super experienced guy.

1:22:45The minute he said anything because every time he opened his mouth, it was important and valuable and considered everyone went, he could interrupt anyone, the instant silence everyone stares over at this guy. Because when he contributed, we all knew that he had something valuable to add. And so I would say to my team, I said this to this team that we're here with this Neil, like just make sure you protect your contribution score. That's such a brilliant way to say it. Yes, it's like it's your score because people keep tabs on you. They know Stephen's going to say something, he doesn't always speak, but if he's going to say something every time he drops something, he drops something of value.

1:23:22Or it's people think like, I have to talk because everyone tells me I have to talk, make my voice heard. No, shut up. And if you're silent, then you're not a value, that's what people think. Right. You didn't add anything. Right. Well, you didn't take anything away, either. Yes. I won't tell you this to Stephen. When I go to meetings or sometimes I go to meetings and if I'm the dumbest person in the room, I'm the happiest person. That's a one time where I'm happy because I'm thinking, wow, look at all these smart people around me and I get to be part of this. I get to listen. I love to sit back and listen.

1:23:51There's times I just had a meeting with like my scripted agent, a silver with my manager about some TV project. And I knew enough to know to say, they're like, hey, every this and this and I said, you know what? This is space I don't know. I'm going to follow your lead. Fill me in. I'm taking a seat back. You guys do the talking. Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead. And over the course of my career, I've learnt just how crucial having the right systems in places, one which has helped me across many of my investments is net suite.

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1:25:03That's netsweep .com slash Bartlett. You're someone who has a default to taking responsibility. You know, like the opposite, I guess, of taking responsibility is becoming a victim which we talked a little bit about before we started recording. But people don't like taking responsibility. It almost is like holding a mirror up to yourself. It's much easier to go through life, blaming the world, blaming the government, blaming circumstance, luck, parents, the guy that did it to me, my ex boyfriend, my ex husband, so much easier way. It's a much more comfortable way to exist within your mind for most, for most people, for a lot of people.

1:25:39I am, I sat with a guy called Mogaud at many years ago and he the first time he came on my podcast and he told me that when he writes a book, he gets 500 people at random, members of the public to go into a Google Doc and kind of read through it. And he goes for some reason when people got to this section about personal responsibility, about 10 % of people just click off. Because they don't want to read that. Because nothing's my fault. They don't want someone to tell them that they can change their life. And I've always found that really bizarre. Like people, people don't want to know that they, some people don't want to know that wherever they are now, and where they want to be, will largely be based in most circumstances, not all, be based on what they do now and tomorrow and the day after.

1:26:24There's something about victimhood, which both alleviates blame from ourselves and makes us feel justified in our misery. Do you know, but some people want to live there. It becomes their identity. So I am this. I am how I am today because of this thing that happened to me a long time ago. I remember working with this woman. There was a window during COVID when people were writing to me and I was like, it's quiet. Let me do consultations. And I did consultation mentors and I had this one woman come to me. And I would get people like what you're talking about every now and then. Usually when most people came to me, though, they knew what they were getting.

1:27:07But I would have people come to me that just wanted me to validate that somebody else did this to you or you're okay to feel this way. There's one woman came to me. She was a therapist. And she came to me and she told me about some hardship she had when she was young. I think what she had was she grew up with no money. It was very traumatic. She had to take care of her brother and there was a term for it. I forgot it was a clinical term. And because of that trauma, today she has all these issues. And so she's like, I have a hard time talking for the people I have anxiety and she was telling me this stuff.

1:27:37I said, why don't we leave what happened to you here here? Let's leave it there. I said, and let's look at what we're doing because you're telling me, Evie, I want to perform in life. But it's like you've just bought yourself this brand new Porsche and you're like, this thing won't go past 50 or 60. Why? Because I'm like, because you have this big as you haul attached to it and it can't. So why don't we leave this back there and we'll move forward? Would you believe Stephen, she lost her mind? She's like, how dare you? How dare you dismiss what I've been through? How dare you read the room? I will never forget her.

1:28:13And the thing was it was so part of who she was today. It was her. It defined her so much. She didn't want to leave it behind. She just wanted to talk about it more. And so sometimes people... Why doesn't she want any of it behind? Do you think? Because it's a child entity. It's who she is. It's like people who have been through something... an experience. I will give you another example. September 11th. So I was in the World Trade Center on September 11th. I survived. I was almost killed. I lost colleagues and friends. But I was also around other people who experienced what I experienced. And different people behaved differently.

1:28:49And there were some people that would reach out to me. Remember this one guy who was a medic? And he saw what I saw. He experienced what I experienced. And he just couldn't recover. And he would call me up. He's like, Evie, I'm struggling. And I tell him, I'm like, I think his name is Jerry. I'm like, Jerry, I'm like, leave it. It's done. We're here. It's like, where we go. And he couldn't. And all he did was talk about it. And the other thing he did is he went to therapy. A lot of it. And I was like, dude, I was like, I don't think you should be going therapy about this. Stop talking about it.

1:29:23I was like, you're reliving it every time. Like therapy is supposed to, like, it's a pepper -credit goal. It's, don't know how I'm like. Therapy is supposed to help you move forward. But if I was like, if I went to therapy every week and I talked about 9 -11, I'd be a mess. I was like, leave it. Let it be where it is in the past. And like, what do you do with what we experienced? And how do we move forward? And how do we help other people? And I like, that was a scenario where I was like, if you keep reliving this trauma, like you become it. And it was him. It was him. He left being a medic. He's marriage.

1:29:59He got a divorce. His whole life just fell apart. But do you know he wanted to stay there? He didn't want to leave it. It was what... It was... it defined who he was. I met another dude. I shouldn't say dude. But I met another man who I knew. Here's an iron worker. Nice guy. He does a lot of stuff around 9 -11. But I remember once I interviewed him for a news thing. He didn't know anything about me. This was strictly news as a journalist. After I left the Secret Service. And it was a 9 -11 piece we were doing. I didn't say anything because of course it's not about me. It's about him. Now remember putting his mics on and doing stuff and getting ready to do my video thing with him.

1:30:38He had like 9 -11 tattoos all over his arms. And like he had a 9 -11 room. He's like, let me show you my room. And again, I said nothing. I remember thinking I'm like, I was like, I can't... I would never tattoo the towers on my arms. I was like, I can't. I'm like, what mental mindset are you going to be in? And he had a room with all his 9 -11 stuff. I was like, I don't... I have a Valor ward. It's under my bed. My dad had took it. He hung it. Then when he passed away, I took it and I put it away again. It's under my bed. I think that these things, like there are certain types of people, even that they want to be tied to this.

1:31:15It's their story. And when they meet you, they're going to tell you about it. Oh, do you know I would have been through? I'm recovering from this. I'm surviving for this. You come across those folks because that's their identity. It's become who they are and they don't know how to let it go. And it's okay, but that's for them. It's not for me. What is the... What is the harm then, if not letting go of our trauma and embodying it and allowing it to become our identity? Like, what does it stop us from doing? Because I'm not a 9 -11 survivor. I'm Evie. That's something I experienced one day in my life.

1:31:52And you're going to tell me that one day defines who I am for this to my life. If it does, what's the harm? Who's Evie going to become? I'm going to be a mess. I'm going to be afraid to go in a high -rise building. I'm going to be afraid to get onto a plane. Three weeks after 9 -11, I got on a plane. I was like, oh, no, no, no. This is not... kill fear while it's so small. This is not going to become a monster. I got my ass on a plane. I was like, I can't control everything in my life, but I can navigate the outcome of my life to some degree. Not all. I'm not going to be at the mercy of the world.

1:32:31I can take ownership to some degree, Stephen. But I have to choose to one and not everybody wants it. But it's also I have to have you and I or whoever has to have enough intelligence to see that when someone is like that, just leave them. They don't want you to fix their problems. They want to be there. Let them be there. However, if it's someone you're looking to hire or date or hang out with, now you decide, is this someone I want to be around because it is not good for me? Those are two different things. I want to come back to this 9 -11 thing, but it reminded me of a conversation I had with someone recently where they were telling me about all the problems in their life and problems they were having with a particular job that they have.

1:33:13And I remember asking them, I was like, did you choose that job right and you can leave. And they were so offended by the idea that they had a choice. And they eventually admitted to me that they could leave and they would be fine because they have enough money and that they interviewed for that job and went for and they also could leave. But they they weren't interested in choice. Like I remember saying to them, I've never, this is a good friend of mine. I remember saying to them, why don't you want power in this situation? Like why don't you want to be empowered? You're like, I could observe in them that they wanted to be disempowered.

1:33:49They wanted to be powerless. They wanted to be a victim of circumstance. They didn't want to have a conversation about choices and the decisions they could make. They were not interested. And I was like, Jesus Christ, what a way to live. What a way to live to not want to, you know, because objectively bad things happen to people. You know, trauma is they go through things which were nothing of that doing. They weren't to blame. But it doesn't mean right that we can't do something about it. There's a very two different things like. But you have to wanted some people don't. So I think what you'll do is you'll be able to what people come to you and they'll say, Stephen, I need help or this and that.

1:34:26But you'll be able to see who genuinely really wants to move forward. Who just wants to just tell you about it. How would you how would you be able to identify the difference? So people who are they call it's called being identity. I and I use this word before, but more in a clinic, not in a clinical, but more in the way that I've learned it through through training in my research. I also have a master's forensic masters in forensic psychology. When someone is identity. They use repeated. You'll hear them say, I, I, I, I a lot. You can even see this in an email. People who are identity tend to be highly depressed.

1:35:01Have a lot of anxiety. They're very self focused one. They're very emotional based. So you can spot these individuals. Now look, we all visit identity land from time to time. Like I may go through something difficult and have a moment tonight. This identity space, but then I'm like, okay, after recover, but some people stay in this space. It's like they're predominant disposition. So repeated use of I this, I that I feel I want I went through that's one red flag. The other thing is very emotional. You'll see there are links. There's links to depression. They're typically depressed, but they stay in the space.

1:35:39The other thing is people like this who complain a lot. Do you know that when you live a trauma or you complain or you have drama? Like you get those you get those quarters all hits you get also adrenaline hits adrenaline hits you get F3. It's your fight flight freeze response. We peak. Some people get addicted to that peak. I'm addicted to the trauma. I'm addicted to feeling that. It's like the last week I was racing a car. I was at porous nose racing cars for fun. And when you're in the car, you're in the present, right? I'm like, look, trying not to hit the cone, doing whatever I'm there. I'm in the moment.

1:36:13But like my adrenaline's going up. I'm peaking. I've got my F3s on fire. And I'm but I'm focused. It feels I feel alive. So for some people when they get into the state, when they we live the stuff and they have these spikes or that you see them very high conflict driven or high drama driven, they get these spikes. And it's when they feel in the moment they feel alive and that you become addicted to it. It also becomes a habit. I was thinking then about this idea of identity and what identity also sometimes seems to give people is it gives them a community and it makes gives them a sense of belonging and it gives them purpose, which we're all searching for.

1:36:51Like if I'm a insert trauma, then I instantly have a community of people that you know will make me feel like I belong. And then that is something I don't want to give up. If I give up my trauma, I end up giving up my sense of purpose, my community who I belong to the way the world understands me. And and that's oh, I guess another reason why it can be so sticky like our traumas can be so sticky because we build our whole like our social circle around them. We go to events about it. We were in group little social media groups about it. But I think today trauma has become like a badge of honor now.

1:37:29In fact, you hear people talking and it's like a competition about who has more trauma. That's is not that who has I have more trauma than you know I've had it harder than you like it's a competition of who's had it the hardest and it's it's become like this. This thing now to that we put on a pedestal. I think it's just the new way to draw attention to ourselves and to make ourselves relevant to ego and status. It is ego it is status and it's interesting the sense of belonging in group out group that's a whole other psychological thing. If I'm in a group and I feel like a belong somewhere it's like how gay taking it back to crime gangs or why people join terrorist organizations.

1:38:11They join it because they want to be part of something because they're bad people. I want to feel like I'm part of a group. And so this makes me feel relevant. Which is fine but to agree you also have to have your your sovereignty as a person. We want to be part of something because we don't want to be out there alone out there. But you don't have to be alone out there but we hitch ourselves to these narratives. And now my identity is I'm a survivor of this. I am someone who's experienced this. It's like no those are things that happen to me but they are not who I am. I'm an evolving thing. I called my book becoming bulletproof because I am always becoming I'm becoming more I'm evolving.

1:38:53We don't stop. I don't want to stop. I'm never going to get to a point where I know everything every day I learned something. What was the most interesting day of your career when I say interesting the day that you think about and go Jesus that was like awesome or that was from a movie. So I have I can give you a story which I don't think I've shared. So I love because I didn't look like an agent. I would get pulled in for a lot of undercover stuff which I loved. It was fun. Scary. But because I never got pegged for an agent like I was felt super safe. So I did this one thing where there's another undercover case where they came to me and we were working with NYPD.

1:39:34It wasn't my case but they wanted me. There was this organized crime ring. I think they were Albanian and they were selling passports. Original passports and birth certificates to terrorists. This is and so they're selling it to them to help them come into the US and to other other people who are bad actors. So the agencies get wind of this and they want to get these guys. This guy specifically with this organized crime ring. They're trying to figure out how to get in because they were so good at what they did. You couldn't get them. So they wanted me to go in undercover and pretend to be someone who needed paperwork so they're trying to figure out how do we do it.

1:40:20So the idea we came up with was I would be someone who had been sex trafficked from an Eastern block country because I can pass for it. So I started talking on the phone. I was introducing them through another undercover and talking to him on the phone and I had to develop an Eastern block accent. I need my papers. They brought me here from my country because when they sex traffic people in the first thing they do when they lure you in is they'll take your paperwork from you. And you can't even get a cell phone here in the US without paperwork. So they take your stuff and then they put you either to do sex work or work in strip clubs or both until you pay off your debt for them bringing to America.

1:41:06So I pretended to be one of those. So I, you know, under that premise, I have no paperwork so I can't get an apartment. I can't get anything. I'm at the mercy of these traffickers, which until I pay my dues, which you never do, by the way, they keep you locked in. And then they make them afraid and they tell them if you say anything, they're going to deport you back, which actually is not true. However, so I take on this role. I start talking to this guy. I need papers. I please they take my papers. How much for new papers? How do you line this accent? Did you just go on? I studied acting and then close my parents are immigrants.

1:41:42I grew up in New York and Queen. So I just picked them up, but I practice it. And I had to be good because if you're not good, you get a bullet to the head when you meet this guy. So you have to live in reality because my life is also on the line. And so I have these phone calls with them. He agrees. Okay, I'll meet with you. So my first meeting is passport photos. I had to go get passport photos. I go meet him and I remember when I met him at his, I think he did construction was the outside thing he did. We meet him. I mean, I mean, like dress clothes. I'm dressing like very, very young woman, but I also had to put on sneakers because I'm like, hey, if this guy just has to do something, I need to be able to run.

1:42:23So I meet him. I bring my passport photos. I go to this location. That's a front. I'm here to see. I don't remember the guy's name. They're like, oh, he's not here. You'll have to wait for him. So they play with me for a little while. You know, everyone's watching me from the outside, but I have no wire on. And we debated whether I should have a wire or not or a gun. And I chose to take nothing. So I'm, I've got nothing with me, which makes me more vulnerable. But my concern was if they put me through a metal detector or they checked me, that would be worse. Because now I'm in their home and like, they'll just off me right off the bat.

1:42:55So I'm sitting there and I'm waiting. He finally comes. And he tries to lure me into his car. And I had been briefed, whatever you do, you don't get into a car with this guy. So I don't get in the car. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, I don't get into car. He's like, no, we need to talk private. Now, I have eyes on me and I want to make sure the agents and everybody can see me. So there's this back and forth. Well, I'm like, please, I prayed under one to go into the car. He has passport for toes. I give him, I think it was five G's. I give him number of a five grand. Here's the five grand. He's like, OK, come back in like two weeks.

1:43:27And he's like, maybe you'll get in my car. So I come back like two weeks later, same story. I meet him. I get my passports. He gave me a Polish passport. I won't forget it was a real authentic Polish passport and a certificate, birth certificate and all that. And I'm like, the deal was though, I need more transactions with this guy because the more you get, the longer you can put them away, but he was so good, we couldn't get anything that we knew he had done. So I'm like, hey, I have more friends. Can I send you more girls? I'll bring you more girls. So you go, oh, yeah. So then I start bringing him more girls here in these girls, other undercover, other undercover female agents and cops.

1:44:08We had NYPD play. And so we go in and we're doing this buying and selling transactions transactions. So we got enough to get the US attorney to say, yes, we got him. And then they went in and they took them down. That was pretty interesting. Will you scared at any point? I was not because I always felt safe in that nobody's even ever thought I was a cop. Nobody ever thought I was an agent. I didn't look like one. I didn't speak like one. So I felt very safe. Because you don't look like an agent, I understand how that's useful for the for the going undercover, but it's got to lead people to underestimate you in your professional career.

1:44:51Yes. And a lot of people that I've spoken to are speaking at a women's leadership conference about a week ago in London. And lots of the questions from the audience were about that subject about being underestimated and how to deal with that. It was a DEI conference. So diversity, inclusion conference. Lots of people that are black, lots of people that are women, lots of people that are from different sort of minority groups. And the question came up about like being underestimated because of your skin color, because of your gender, because of something else. How do you deal with that? And it's something that I thought a lot about when I started in business 18 years old as a university dropout, I'm going into rooms and I'm dealing with men that are all in suits and they're triple my age on 18.

1:45:34I know they're looking at me with my afro, my fake tight, like my little cheap tie thinking, he the fuck is this guy like, but have you have you seen your underestimation of you as a disadvantage or an advantage? It's how you choose to view it. I remember once I was in Africa, where was I? Botswana. I was born. You were born in Botswana? Yeah. I spent a whole month. I've been to Africa a lot. I love Botswana. I remember I had to close the windows because at the hotel because they said the monkeys come in. I was like monkeys. I thought it was cool. I was like, no, I'll leave them open. They're like, no, no, you know what?

1:46:10The monkey's coming in your room. So I spent a lot of time in Botswana. And I was there with. I did a trip where I went from Botswana to Tanzania and I was with Barbara. Barbara, excuse me, Laura Bush, the daughter, President Bush's daughter. She was doing some work there, nonprofit work. And when I was her, it's called an assistant detail leader. So I was kind of like her main person. And then I had a team under me. So I have my team and I'm holding a briefing. I'm in charge. And we're in the hotel room. We're here there to meet before our trips start. So they sent me agents from different parts of the world.

1:46:50They come in. And the first agent that walked in, I was by myself in the room. First agent walked in, he's like, hey, hey, how are you? I'm like, oh, good. How are you? He said, are you put the staff for you in intern? Because if the staff's office is down the hall. If you want to go to the staff's office, I'll show you where it is. You know, so I don't I don't show it. So I keep my face. And I said, no, I'm actually agent from Paris. I'm the one who's holding the brief and hi, good to meet you. Meaning I'm your supervisor for this trip. And he's like, okay, hi, nice to meet you. Now I could sit there and be pissed about this.

1:47:25I can just leave it. Sometimes like Stephen, like, who cares? Who cares? I can't care so much. There's something you need to care about and something you don't. And as you were talking about, you know, who we are, when I went to a school, I'm sorry, polygraph school. It's where I went to the department of defense to be trained to be an interrogator. It was a really selective school. And it was like the who's who of agencies were there. And we were all in the classroom. And I remember I was walking with a colleague of mine. We'll call him K, K and our walking and we're walking back to our hotel.

1:48:04It's just he and I. And he was quiet. I'm like, hey, what's wrong? And he's like, he's like, you know what? He's like, I don't know. He's like, I don't know. He's like, I don't know. I'm not going to be a person. I'm not going to be a person. I'm not going to be a person. I'm not going to be a person. I'm not going to be a person. I'm not going to be a person. I'm not going to be a person. I'm not going to be a person It's just like the group of people and he was an agent. He was a secret service agent. I was like, did you notice like did you take to the room? I'm like, what about the room? He said, you know, I'm the only black guy in the room.

1:48:25And I was just like, huh, and I paused. And we had been there like maybe a couple of weeks already. And I'm like, I stopped. I said, I had to do the mental like assessment. I was like, yeah, K, you're right. You are. And he looked at me. He's like, you're the only female agent in the room, too. And I was like, am I? And I stopped. And then a mental assessment. I was like, yeah, you're right. And it made me sad in that moment because I'm thinking like, look what case thinking about. And I hadn't even thought about it. And what what ended up happening is like, I would invite him on. I'm like, come on.

1:49:02We're going with the guys. He's like, well, they don't invite me. I'm like, dude, you don't need a special invite. They don't invite me either. We just go. And because he built this narrative in his head because he thought he thought because he was different or I was different, we weren't wanted. Like makes you show up different, doesn't it? You show up different. And he was such a great guy, such a competent guy. And I would, and I would actually sit there and like, K, I'm like, nobody's thinking like that. And there was a group of guys that were with us that came, there were secret service guys.

1:49:31And I was like, I am telling you these guys are not thinking about your black. I'm a woman. Like, I don't think they give a shit. And he's like, I don't know. He's like, I don't want to just show up. I'm like, I do. I ask them every day. What are we having for dinner? I don't want to eat alone. And I would have to go knock on his door. And I remember it came to a point. He's like, I want them to invite me. And I had to go to the guys. I'm like, can you guys do me a solid? Can you invite K? Because he thinks I'm inviting him. And I guess it's not enough to have the woman invite you. I'll say, can you invite him?

1:50:00Because he feels like you guys don't want him. And they look at me like, what? I said, just go knock on his door. Tell him we're having dinner tonight. But he had set himself up mentally in such a space. And he lived there. And I was like, man, I can't live here. It's interesting because it begs the question. Sometimes what's doing more harm? The discrimination or the belief that you're being discriminated against? Sometimes it's, you know, I'm black, you're a woman. I often wanted this in my early career. I had a really adverse reaction one day when I saw this grant that they did. I was 18, 19 years old, had no money.

1:50:33And I saw that they were doing this grant for young black entrepreneurs. And there was something about it which just irked me. I don't know why. I've never really understood why. But I wanted to be considered on my merits, not my skin color. So when I saw that they were giving out these grants to young black kids, you would think, I'll go, amazing, give me the money. But in my head, I was like, I hate that. I hate that because it's a reminder that it's like, it's like them thinking. And I think this is a super complex thing, right? For me, it was like, they think I'm not good enough. So they have to give me a foot.

1:51:05I know it's deeper and it's more systemic. But I've always tried to stay away from that, especially when I learned about labeling theory, which you see play out in kids in school when they get like an F on an exam. The implicit sort of message to themselves is that like I am an F. And when you overlay that with this thing I was reading about called stereotype threat, where they like remind the woman before a math exam. They ask her to put her like gender on the math exam and then she performs worse. So they remind a black person about their race by asking them to tick a box with their race and then those people perform worse on the exam because we're reminded of our identity and we all of the identity stuff that you talked about.

1:51:40We then perform worse. I've always tried to make sure that I don't ever believe that my race is a is a reason not to show up and give everything I am in every situation. And I can see how for some people anything that someone might discriminate you for can also cause harm if you start to believe it, you start to embody it, you start to look for it. Yes. And you let it become real in your mind. This is not to say that objectively discrimination and prejudice isn't real. I've always been well aware that it's real. But as you said earlier, I'm also of the mind that it's not my problem in that moment to try and change someone.

1:52:18Yes. I get what you're saying label labeling theory theory we use it in criminal justice too. When you label somebody a criminal or an offender and you put that label on them, they are more likely to reoffend again. Because you're just reminding me that I'm just a bad person. So if that's what I am, that's what I'm going to think like. And I will tell you every time somebody asks me like, what was it like being a female special agent? I always get like a teeny tiny paying. And I want to be like, how many how many dudes do you sit in this chair and ask them, I was it like being in an agent? Why do I get that?

1:52:52I was an agent. I earned it. I under it like everybody. I also had to perform like everybody. And it's in it. Yes, it implies like, and you hear it sometimes or sometimes like maybe you'll read like I'll see an interview of mine and you'll see token higher female, however they were to like, oh, you could tell she was a female hire. And you just want to be like, I'm not going to give the finger because we're being PG here, even though we've cursed a few times. But I just want to flip the bird. It's like, dude, like you don't know what I went through to be that. Don't give me a hand hand out. I want an opportunity.

1:53:26Fine. But I'm going to own it. And even in training, they had, you know, and I have talked about this before in training like I found out they had male standards and female standards for performance. Oh, yeah, military too. There's different schools on this. So I, according to this, I don't have to run as fast as the guy according to these standards. According to the standards, I don't have to do as many pull ups or push ups. I didn't know this one. I got hired. I find out later because some agents in training made sure that I knew, hey, just so you know, you got special treatment to get here.

1:54:00And I'm thinking, what are you talking about? They're like, well, the standards that we have to meet and that you have to meet are not the same. Clearly, I'm not happy about this. I find out I get the male standards and I'm like, I felt horrible. I remember when they told me this, I went to my room that night and I felt horrible about it. And I'm thinking, if there's a part of me that's like, fuck these guys. How dare you talk to me like that? I have just as much right to be here as you. And then there's other part of me that's like, well, they're right. So I was like, well, I was like, I'm going to have to perform like they do.

1:54:31And so I just started Steven like working out like a maniac. And I was like, I don't want to hear anything from anybody. And I worked out and I worked out and I worked out morning and night. So I was like, I'm going to be at their level. I'm going to score with a score. But I will also tell you, because there were a couple of girls in my class, like maybe another one or two. I can't remember. They didn't care. They were fine with the female standards. So I've seen both. I've seen both. I'm not judging them. I chose my own path. But I've also seen it where I've seen. And I can, I'm just speaking from the female standard standard where a woman was okay, who is an agent, not being able to do a pull up.

1:55:12And I'm thinking like, that's no good either. It's complex, isn't it? Because when we have these conversations, it always sounds like we're saying that, we're just a discrimination, not very real things. But what we're saying is we're like, not going to make them our problem. Is that my identity? Yeah. It's your problem. If that's part of you, that's, you know, and I'm not going to commit my very limited energy to fixing everybody I meet. It's like, Jesus Christ, I've got enough of stuff to be thinking about, then fixing everybody and correcting everybody. Which some people fall into the trap of that.

1:55:45They go around their lives trying to fix the world. And you can't get much done. How tiring is that? How exhausting is that? And how mentally draining? And how even just emotionally, like, what does that do to your soul that you're trying to fix? Who are you fighting? I guess that's who are you fighting? I'm not going to, maybe if you're sovereign in here and you know, you should, I feel like you show people. I'm not, I know those things exist. I know it. My parents were immigrants. My dad, like, he would always pick for Middle Eastern and he had him. And even though he was Greek and he had a really heavy accent, I saw how people treated him.

1:56:18Even as a man, but like seeing him like Middle Eastern, dark tone, heavy accent, like my brother and I, we'd go through like security at the airport. He's like, we always knew he was going to get pulled. He's like, who's going you or me? And hurt my heart to see how he was treated. But you can't sit and fight everybody. Like, I'm not. The space you take up in the world is just in your time here, man. It's just so finite. Fight who you need to fight if you have to fight, but like you have a choice. And I'm just too busy and like you, I have things to do. And I can't sit and waste my time on every buffoon that comes my way that's thinking and seeing me through a certain lens.

1:57:03Not my problem. Sometimes it is my problem. And if it's my performance. So like with the scenario I gave you before, I get that. I get what they were saying. Fair enough. I'm not qualifying at the standards you are. I'm going to do it, but I don't want to hear shit from anybody once I do it. But even then, Steven, I still heard shit. And that's when you know you're the problem. I'm not the problem. At some point you have to be able to like write it off. It's interesting because you talked to you did a little gesture then, which was kind of it looked like you were making a little bubble around yourself.

1:57:34And that bubble is in the way that I perceived it was like, I'm going to just protect this space here. Because thinking about the border agent that like pulls you into the back room for four hours, which happens to me quite a lot for a variety of different reasons. I was actually an article about it like a couple of weeks, a couple of months back that I'd been pulled into this like back room, he threw up or over and over and over and over again. In the moments when I fight that situation, I do so much harm to my own energy. I'm like letting resentment in. And it's so tempting because it objectively probably is prejudice was some kind of like injustice.

1:58:06But I have to be conscious as you always talk about like of that energy exchange. It's almost impossible to like do a one way transfer of energy. It's always like a two way transfer. I think you can like I feel like it's your mental armor like that bubble. Like you can bubble you're up yourself. You can look at somebody and be like, all right, I know what I got. I don't have time because I'm busy. What do you need to ask me? Are we done? Okay, because I do agree with you sometimes if you fight it, their perception is going to be an I'm telling you because I'm former law enforcement. They're thinking, oh, why is he escalating?

1:58:40Oh, why is he this? Why is there a problem? But from your standpoint, sure, are they picking you for a specific reason? Chances are if it keeps happening to you over and over again. Oh, yeah, there's something there. And there is something systemic there. We're not I'm not dismissing that those things don't exist. But it's also like how much energy are you going to put in? And I guess is the energy you're putting in worth the outcome? That's all. Becoming bulletproof life lessons from a secret service agent. The quote on the front from Roger Olton at the Daily Mail is part memoir, part hugely entertaining self help manual for these tough times.

1:59:17Protect yourself, read people influence situations and live fiercely become bulletproof. The paperback edition of this book is now available everywhere. And I think anybody that's listened to this conversation should have enough evidence as to why they need to read this book. Because it's a really, really accessible, important book that's full of incredible actionable advice advice that we can translate to the boardroom, to our relationships, to our lives more broadly, to enable us to become who we want to become. We have a closing tradition on this podcast, whether last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for.

1:59:52And the question that has been left for you inside the diary of a CEO is. What about your body health? Have you struggled with the most and what did you do to fix it or improve it? After I gave birth because it was such a my body went through so much trauma. I had to leave it alone and let it heal. Oh, you know what else I did when I was pregnant because I worked out my whole life. The entire time I was pregnant, I didn't work out. So I guess listen to your body and give it what it needs. It'll tell you. Evie, thank you so much. Thank you, Stephen. A huge inspiration for so many people for so many reasons that I think I'd be here all day if I went through the entire list.

2:00:34You're an inspiration because of your vulnerability, because of the way that you articulate wisdom in such accessible, relatable ways to people. And really, you know, you said you don't really like the word, but unfortunately you are a role model to many people for many, many reasons. Because your life and your career are evidence to all of us that we can climb to the top of the mountain regardless of all of the hurdles and obstacles that are in our way. And much of that comes down to the way that we perceive those obstacles and hurdles. And also from speaking to I realized that many of those obstacles and hurdles that are in our way as we journey up that mountain have been placed there ourselves by ourselves.

2:01:15And I think that is an incredibly liberating thing. Your book is a must read for all people for both men and women that are trying to climb their own personal professional mountain and become more as you said at the start of this conversation. So thank you so much for your wisdom. Thank you for all the work you're doing and thank you on behalf of all the people you've helped. Thank you, Stephen.

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