Simon Cowell Opens Up About His Heartbreaking Loss, "losing them was the hardest thing that happened to me"!

30:03This is Sunita, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I want to record. This is how I think I'm going to break it. I want it to be called so mature. I need that. I looked at me like, right? So we made two records. Warm was called so mature. The other warm was called, go, go, is the other side. Thruzine. This is the record. I say, oh my god, that's a great sleep, by the way. It's fantastic. That's right, so mature and cruising. The problem was, is the guy I was working with, says to me, I'm expanding into book publishing. I'm like, okay, fine. So he didn't really take any notice as why I was doing. And then he said to me, I've been a public company, you know, basically wants to buy my business, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, great.

31:00I was shutting down the record label. Am I? Are you kidding? I've just made this record. I think it's going to be a hit. And he went, no, I'm shutting it down. And I said, what does that mean for me? He said, well, you're out of your hope. And I said, look, I know you've made a lot of money. You're probably going to make a ton more. Do me a favor. Would he just give me five thousand pounds? I don't want to salary. But with that money, I will make the video. I'll get it distributed, blah, blah, blah, recorded, video, everything. And he went and we think about it. And I kept calling him over the weekend.

31:38And eventually, okay, fine, five thousand, and that's it. So I thought, okay, that I think should be enough. And that was, you know, I suppose one of the biggest turning points in my life, if he had said no, at that point, I'm not sure what I would have done. What would you have done? I would have hustled it from somewhere. Because I really did believe in this. The minute I heard the record from, I just thought this is going to be a hit. How did you know? I just felt it, you know. I had a good, the funny thing is when I first, when I actually made my first record, the producer said, you will come down to the studio.

32:25And I said, no. And he said, why? I said, because I don't want to know how a record is made. And he said, why? He said, because I want to listen to it as anybody who buys records. If I know how a record is made, it's going to sound different to me. So to this day, I don't know how a record is actually made. I don't know how it started. Does someone play a bass line or keyboard? I mean, I literally haven't got a clue. It's so strange. Because I know it would be an all, it's like when people do magic on my shows. I'm not the person who goes, I know how you did that. I go, I believe in magic. And I will literally make myself believe in magic.

33:12And with music, it was sort of the same thing, which is, I don't want to know too much. I just, I don't want to pretend that I can read music because I can't. I don't want to make myself believe that I can be a producer because I probably couldn't be a very good producer. But I think I could be a very good A &R person, which is findin' artists, findin' them the right song, and then, you know, break the record. And it took me about a year and a half to break that record. It was tough. I just want to pause on that. What you said there about not knowing anything about music or how a record is made.

33:55What I heard there, I guess, in between the lines is, you want to remain the listener and not the creator because you think it's more valuable to maintain the perspective of the consumer. Completely. 100 % that. I mean, you've hit the nether, the head is exactly that. And also, I didn't want to ever, you know, because I've met some successful producers, you know, over the years. And I had this vision of, because I'd heard stories of A &R people who went into studios pretending they understood how to make a record and hadn't got a clue. In fact, one guy actually had literally a piece of metal, like a train track or something, literally a piece of iron and he had it on his studio wall and he called it the whackometer because all these idiot A &R guys used to come in.

34:59Yeah, don't really like the mix of the record and he'd go, yeah, no exactly what you mean. Let me just adjust this. And so he would just pull the lever down and the guys would go, night and day. And I couldn't think of anything more embarrassing. So I've always been the first to say, I don't know how our records mate. I can't read music. I haven't really got a clue. But I think, I would say I do have a good ear for a hit or a potential hit. There's something really transferable to marketing. I've obviously been the last 10 years working in marketing and one of the most passionate things I've said on stage or gazillion times to my teams is trying to get us out of the perspective of the creator and into the perspective of the person that's going to see it out in the world.

35:46And I have to say it is like an impossible task. It sounds so simple. And what you're describing is what I've thought so hard to try and convey to people. Well, I think you can do that if you believe it yourself. And I did have this strong belief in myself that finally I'd found something I could do, which was make a record, make a terrible video. And I mean, obviously we used to have to physically manufacture the records. So I didn't have a lot of credit. So I had to do a lot of deals with these people. Look, I'll pay you. If you'll make me I think 10 ,000 was the minimum or something. I mean, the whole thing.

36:41Well, I had to go through to get this record into the charts. And it was all about getting it into the top 40. And it took me three times, first time it flop, second time it flop. And then what I did was I said to the warehouse, I said, what is the problem? They said, well, the record selling. But it's not keep selling Simon, but it's not enough to get into the 40. So I said, well, why don't we hold the order? And they said, well, we're not really supposed to do that. In other words, just say it's out of stock. On the computer. But it's not out stock. Just don't let them have the record when they order it.

37:29In other words, let's build up the back orders. So we built up whatever the back order was. And then all the people who'd ordered a record three months ago, four months ago, suddenly all these records arrived that week. And it worked. It got the record into the top 40. It squeezed in. And I got a breaker on top of the pops. And the record just exploded after that. Oh, and here's the crazy thing is the guy who gave me the money to run the record label. Goes off and merges with this company, a public company, and it goes bust. Oh, the public company went bust. It goes bust. And that's part of reason why I went broke because all the time there was me on my own literally with one person running the record label.

38:27And we made a lot of money on that one single. But actually the mother company was broke. So at the time I had the hit, everything suddenly crumbled at that point simultaneously. So I have my first here and I'm broke. I actually, it's funny you say that because what we're talking about, I listened to this last night. And I saved it to my favorites. It's just a clip of Rick Rubin. You know Rick Rubin, right? Yeah. Talking about music. Do you play instruments? Barely. Do you know how to work a soundboard? No. No technical ability. And I know nothing about music. You must know something. Well, I know what I like and what I don't like.

39:17And I'm decisive about what I like and what I don't like. So what are you being paid for? The confidence that I have in my taste and my ability to express what I feel has proven. I've been helpful for artists. Sounds almost like what you just said to me. Well, yeah, I mean, not many people say this. You know, most people will say, yeah, I know a lot about making records and this and that. That's a very different skill set. You know, my skill set, I suppose, is similar. I mean, I think that is, you know, fortunately, you know, getting it right as to what I believe people will like in whatever I do.

40:05That's really what it comes down to. When I used to do it, and then when I had Rick say that, I thought, oh my God, you can build an unbelievable career based on not being technical. It's something that tastes in conviction. Absolutely right. And also understand because the one word you're going to hear all the time when you're, you know, starting off is no. It's just that word you hear over and over and over again because people are nervous. And if you really, really, really trust something because, you know, I'm looking at that sleeve now. I cannot tell you how many times the word no was described in the breaking of that record.

40:49And I had to trust my own gut. That's all I had. I could have gone, you know what? It's over. The guy shutting the thing down, but I really had this conviction that other people would like it. And, you know, I would take the white label into clubs. And I would, you know, get the DJ to play the record. And I would see the reaction sometimes not so good. Other times amazing. And that was enough to give me that conviction, which is, yeah, this is what I call a crossover record. It can become a big pop record. Because of circumstances heavily outside of your control. And fair records collapses. Yeah.

41:36Owing the bank $500 ,000. And you're left with about five pounds in your pocket. And you move back in with your parents at 30 years old by age? Well, it wasn't the label that owed the money. It was me.

41:51Because all of us were encouraged to buy shares in this company. Because we were told the company was doing really, really well. So the bank manager was practically forcing me to borrow money, you know, because he said the shares are going to go up in value. And at the same time, I thought everything was just going to be wonderful. So I bought a house. I bought a Porsche, of course. I had a gold credit card, which no one explains to me how that works. And terms of the interest rates. So I'm living it up. And when it all came crashing down, yeah, I owed the bank nearly five hundred thousand pounds.

42:45So I had to go in and see the bank. And they had the nice guy. And they had the not so nice guy. And the not so nice guy was, okay, where's the money? Right. Or you lent it to me. You know, it's just gone. And the other guy was like, yeah, well, you know, it was partly our form blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I said, look, all I can tell you is, if you bankrupt me, I don't care. Because I don't have anything. I don't have a job. I don't have any income. I've just got this debt. Which would have a Porsche. It all went the whole lot. Even when I sold the house, I still owed money on the mortgage.

43:29So I was on paper bankrupt, yes. So I moved back in with my mum and dad. And that was really told me what great people they worked. Because there wasn't one moment where either of them said, you know, you failed or this or that. It was like, it's a life lesson, Simon. And then you'll get over it. And I managed to find a bank amazingly to lend me because I basically I negotiated the debt down. We worked out what the interest was over the period of time, what the capital some was. And then I got them to half that. And I said, somehow I'll pay it back cheap. So I found another bank who just backed me.

44:14I just sold myself. And I said, look, you know, I my first record I ever made went to number two, whatever it was. I was in the chart, sold a million copies. This is what my career is going to be. What happened was without my control. And he said, I don't know, I've got a feeling about you. I'm prepared to lend you some money to pay back the other bank, which meant I didn't become bankrupt. So I went back to live with my mum dad. And it was actually quite an interesting time because I remember and I've told the story a lot, is that I had to get from a particular destination in the West End to where my parents lived.

45:02And I had about five pounds cash. And I remember thinking, it's literally all the money I've got left in the world. And I'm not sure if I quit, it's going to cover the tax rate. And I think I know we just about made it. And I said, I'm sorry about the tip because I'm going any more money. It was about 10 p. or something. Fortunately, I had a very, very good lawyer, a guy called Tony Russell. And I said to Tony, look, I'm in not in a great place. I'd met him actually because he represented George Michael. And he sued me when I'd made a mega mix of which we used to do. We used to literally get in session the singers.

45:59And say Kylie Minot, just record eight Kylie Minot records with someone who sounded like Kylie Minot, mix them. So we used to call them mega mixes. And they would, they'd sell about 10, 20 ,000 copies. We used to export them all over the world. I did a WAN one. We got sued by George Michael. That's how I met my lawyer because he was representing George. And I said, I'd rather you represent me next time. And he was brilliant because he said, look, I think Simon, weirdly, what's happened to you is the best thing that's ever happened. And I said, why? I said, I'm broke. I don't have a job. He said, but you succeeded so far, Simon, with everything you put out.

46:48Because I had, you know, success with some other records along the way. He said, I think you should get a label deal, which means that you own part of the company with a major label. So I'm like, OK, if you can get me, if you can get me on brilliant. And we went to meet two companies on the same day, BMG and Universal. And literally that day, at the end of the day, Tony calls me. He said, I've had two calls. I'm going to go on. Universal has said, no, I'm like, shit. BMG has said, yes, I'm like, seriously? There's a caveat. I've got one year, and within that one year, you've got to sell X amount of records.

47:40And I'm like, I'll do it. And I did. And that was kind of how I got myself back up and running again. By the way, the other thing I should mention is I said to Tony, by the way, I don't have any money to pay you. The lawyer. The lawyer. I said, so, you know, I'm not sure I can afford you. And he said, well, I believe in you, Simon. I think one day you will end up repaying me. And I'll always remember that. And years later, of course, you know, we did a lot of deals together. And of course, I repaid him. But I mean, the fact that he was there for me at that moment, I mean, that was again a life -changing moment to me.

48:31There's these people throughout your story that seem to be so critical. Men tours, people that were there to catch you when you fell and treated you in a pleasant way. One of those, as well, was Peter Waterman. You described meeting the day I met Peter Waterman was easily the most important day of my career. You said that in your book, I don't mean to be rude, but... Ah, well, it was because I... I realized very, very quickly that it was unlikely I was going to be able to sign or find singer songwriters. So I was going to have to find artists who needed songs written for them. So I needed to find the best pop writers in a literary in the world.

49:19I heard this record on the radio, and I just thought, wow, whoever this is, this record is brilliantly made. And I found out it was produced by Stockake and Waterman. No one had heard of them at this point. So I called up here, and I said, hi, my name is Simon Cowell, blah, blah, blah. Can I meet you? And he went, yeah. So I went down to his studios and we met. We were sitting on these literally wooden boxes. The studio was like a real mess. And I said, I've got this record. I'm about to put out, and he put on, so much, I took it off. I said, hip, I went, yeah, I know. Would you produce a follow up when he went, no, I said, what do you mean, no?

50:10I thought I was doing him a favor. And he went, I'm too busy. And I said, doing what? And literally the place was falling apart. And he gave me this awful wink. He went, you'll see. And then the next three to six months, the whole Stockake and Waterman explosion just happened. Because obviously Pete had been making other records in the meantime, which no one had heard. And out, nowhere, all of his records were just hits. So I thought, okay, I've got to persuade him to write Sunita's follow up. So I just used to turn up at his studio literally every single day. And make tea, sit in the studios, blah, blah, blah.

50:58And they were so busy that they didn't really notice me. And after about a year and a half, Pete was in the studio and he turns around. He goes, why are you always here? And I said, well, I'm trying to work out how you do it. And he went, I'm not paying you. I said, I don't want to get paid. I just, I want you to one day write her follow up. And a few months after that, I was in my office. I get a phone call. I've got you hitmate. And I got in the cab, went down to his studio and he played me the demo of Toy Boy. And I thought, that's going to be a gigantic record for him. Internationally as well.

51:44I could feel it. And Pete, you know, made it everything. Because Pete again, I mean, Pete will pretend, unlike me, he'll say, oh, of course I know I had a producer record, blah, blah. But he may do. But Pete's skill is, I have always described Pete as the best DJ in the world. He could go to any city in England, one in the morning, and he would note instinctively what records to play to the audience that were in that venue. And he made everything simple, which is you find a great artist. And you, you matched them with a great pop record. And that was it. When you got that job at BMG, one of the things that I read was that you were really focused on television, which was unusual.

52:36Television as an outlet for the music and as a distribution platform to make the music successful, which is unusual at that time to think about television. Why did you think about television and why were you pushing that upon your bosses at BMG? I took the view. It didn't matter to me. What the record was, as long as it sold a lot of records. So, it just occurred to me one day. I forget what it was. It might have been. I think it was the wrestling federation or something. Someone told me they'd sold out Wembley Stadium, the American wrestlers. The WWF. In 80 ,000 seats in 27 minutes and I'm like, what?

53:25And so I learned a bit more about them. They're selling everything and I'm thinking actually, their fans are so crazy about them. They'll buy an album. So I met with them and I said, have you ever considered doing this? They went, no. And I said, well, I'll pay you X as an advance. I phoned up Pete Waterman. I had your fancy making album for the wrestlers. I'll do it again instantly. He just got it. And we got all, we flew all these wrestlers over from America. They all turned up as their characters. It was hysterical. The Undertaker, Hulk Hogan, you name it. They were all there. And my boss at the time was so desperate for me not to do this.

54:17She actually got down on her knees seriously and was praying. Said, Simon, I am begging you not to do this because it's going to be such a catastrophic failure. And I'm like, what am I doing here? I just don't see, don't understand why you don't get it. Have you felt like that a lot in your career where you feel like you can see something others can't because you're thinking more from first principles there. You're thinking they sold out an arena. They have an avid fan base. We can attach music to an avid fan base equals hit. Yeah. You've summed it up very eloquently and that is exactly it. However, and you know this.

54:56What is very straightforward to us is not straightforward to other people. They're thinking. You. He's gone completely mad. I mean, no, but I'm thinking, yeah, but you're not a seven year old boy. You know, this is who's going to buy the record. You know, this is somebody who's going to buy a board game or blah blah. You know, serial with the wrestlers on it. Whatever. You know, I did it with the power rangers. Zig and Zang. I didn't care as long as it sold records. Was it this one?

55:39That's it. Oh my God, we had so much fun doing this. We really, really, really did.

55:51And you know what was interesting is actually when I made the video, I kind of turned myself into a kid again because you sort of have to believe it for it to work, you know, because I treated it as if this was a serious record. The record had to be a great record. Doesn't this go back to what you said early on about being able to embody the listener consumer? Yeah. Yeah. Because your boss at the record label there was saying, no, this is not how it's done. This is not what we do here. Whereas you're thinking again from the mind of a seven year old or eight year old. Yeah. And that's hard. Yeah.

56:32Well, I didn't think. I thought logically it made a lot of sense. I used to sit in these A &R to part meetings with really, really serious A &R people who would literally go bright red with anger when I would play them something like this. You're making a mockery of this label and the music business is like, well, it cares. It's number one in the charts in 28 countries. I just didn't understand why people would take it so seriously. And they saw millions and millions of copies. Yeah. You saw millions of copies for a wrestling album using a passionate fan base as the... And you know what? It was fun.

57:11It actually was a fun project. And when I worked at BMG, I got to know a lot of the people who worked in the Teddy Sales department. These were the girls who would literally get orders from the record shops. And I got to know all of them. And they were really, really fun people. But they were like the background. But I used to call them the punters. They completely got it. And I always used to say, if you hear of anything, just let me know. Is there a demand to something? I always just want to know what's going on every day. And one particular day, I said, anything happened this morning? And they went, yeah, we're getting a lot of calls about something that was sung on soldier soldier last night.

58:12So anyway, a cuddle long story short. I tracked down Rops of Endureome. And I said, hi, I'm Simon Cowell, blah, blah, blah. I kind of got your own to say yes. Rops and just wasn't having it. So I was like a stalker. And we would not let me go. I got hold of his parents. Everyone is friends. Maybe they do. I mean, to the point, I think I got a legal letter saying, can you stop harassing my clients? And it's like, well, when he says yes, I'll stop harassing him. And eventually he agreed to a meeting. And I'm so excited. I'm in the cab going to the meeting. And then I suddenly went, Christ, I don't know what he looks like.

59:01Because I never watched the show. What do I do? So we were meeting in this blind bar or something. So I just walk in. I'm like, hi, I'm Simon. I've never had this hand shot up. Rops and I'm like, hi. And we sit down. And I said, here's the dip. I'll pay you both 50 ,000 pounds each to go into the recording studio, lay down your vocals. And if you say no, you keep 50 grand each. And he looks at me. What you serious? I mean, yeah. So literally the following day, this is right. We'll do it. Thinking we're about about to make 50 grand each for a day's work. I'm never going to put the record out. So I get them in as quickly as possible.

59:52And I get a phone call from Rops and I want to see you. So I walk in, did lay down the vocals. And I said, what's the problem? And he goes, you are a complete seaword. And I went, why? He said, because you knew exactly what was going to happen, didn't you? And I don't know what you're talking about. Is it, yes you do. He said, put it on. And they played me the record. And they both realized that that moment, the record, that's going to be a hit record. And I kind of forced them into doing it. And they were happy and angry at the same time. For two years, they were the biggest selling artists in the UK.

1:00:38I mean, they outsold Oasis every bomb. Really? Yeah, it was absolutely, I cannot tell you. We had some, we couldn't make a lot of records. We sold so many records. And this was, this particular track was number one for I think seven or eight weeks or something. Yes, I mean, I think it's number one. Yeah, I think all the records went to number one. It was actually quite incredible. And that was probably the thing that really cemented this thing about my career, which was absolutely trust you got go completely in an unconventional way. And that more than anything else made me realize the power to be.

1:01:25Because also when I eventually did see the episode and I saw how it was caught. And the storyline and just how everything worked and why it was such a demand for that record. It was, wow, that's, that's a great lesson. But Simon, what about if your gut is wrong? Because you've worked with people that trust their gut and they're continually wrong. That they just don't have it. They just don't have it, right? Yeah. Whether they're musicians or they're A &Rs, you know, there'll be a lot of people listening now that are like a case. Simon said, trust my taste, trust my gut. Just go for it. And then in reality that they, you know, it's a question of like self awareness, I guess, which is difficult.

1:02:09Well, I can relate to what is happening to a lot of people in the music business right now, which is the frustration they must feel, which is I'm talented. I've uploaded my music and I'm not getting anywhere. What do I do next? And I know what that feeling is. And what I decided to do was why don't I go with a slightly different direction from everybody else? I don't want to be part of the herd. If I follow everyone else, I'm just going to be a sheep. I don't want to be a sheep. I'd rather be somebody slightly unusual, but successful rather than safe, cool, whatever. So I always say particularly today, you've got to make noise amongst the noise.

1:03:03And that means, you know, do your research. You know, if you're going to cover a song, don't copy the original. You know, find a song that could have been written 12 months ago, but actually was written 30 years ago. And rearrange the song, do something different with it. You know, there's so many things you can do, which are different to what other people are doing. Because that really is about getting your first step on the ladder, which is prove that you can make some noise amongst everybody else. And I do know what that feeling of frustration felt like. However, it's also about trusting your gut as well.

1:03:50When you make noise amongst the noise, there's a cost. And you talked a little bit about the cost of that. It's the skepticism, it's the negativity, it's the criticism, it's the get back in line. And a lot of people, especially if they weren't rebellious kids, they had a problem with authority and such, can't deal with string from the conventional path. Where other people have walked the blueprint, how things have always been done. You have to go through the thorns, through the bushes. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes a certain type of rebel, which one of which is in front of me, that is willing to go through the thorns in life.

1:04:23Yeah. And don't be afraid of what other people say about you for doing that. You know, because, you know, when people say it's not cool or whatever, who defines what is cool or what isn't cool. You know, this is just about you, your career, your passion. And if other people, you know, mock you for being different, then I would rather be mocked for being different than being safe. That would just bore me. I've been called so many terrible things from serious people in the music business. But it just doesn't really matter, you know, the most ever bother you. Is it a muscle you've had to train? You know, the only thing that bothered me was, like I said, when I first tried to get my record played on Radio One, and I saw the process.

1:05:20And I thought, this is something I can't change. I cannot change the stuffy old producers mind about liking a record. He knows nothing about. So I have to find a way to force that person to play the record. And the way I can do that is to get it into the charts. So I have to find a way to get it into the charts that forces them to play the record on the top 40 count now. That's always what I had in my head. In other words, if you really, really believe in it, and the conventional part isn't open to you, then you've got to go right. Then how do we navigate a slightly different path that eventually gets us what we want?

1:06:05Let's not go the obvious route. And, you know, I'm not going to lie, every time I do anything new, there's always part of the thrill is it may not work. And, you know, every time I, I, I film a series of BGT, AGT, whatever I'm filming every year, there is one day where I'm like, it's over. It's over. I hate the acts. I'm bored. That's it. And then following day, I'm like, my God, I love this show so much. I mean, I end so up and down like that because I can't fake how I feel. You know, when, when I'm bored, when I'm miserable, it really shows. And when I'm happy, then you know I'm happy. Q1 is often when businesses start implementing new systems and processes in hopes of creating efficiencies for the year ahead.

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1:07:37Over 41 ,000 businesses have chosen to future -proof their business with NetSuite. So if you'd like to learn how it can help your business, head to netsuite .com slash Bartlett and free download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning. That's netsuite .com slash Bartlett. Another single here. It's a single, but it's part of an album that, do you remember this one? Oh, yeah, West Life. So you would sort of think 39 years old and your band West Life, their album hits number one. Yeah. And you know what? This is my dad passed away right at this time as well. So this was a real bit of sweet time for me because my dad, he never knew this, but my dad was amazing at spotting here records.

1:08:27You know, I would play him certain things I was making. Oh, bless you. You're afraid to have any him. Yeah.

1:08:40Yeah.

1:08:44He, uh, when I first started to have some success and my records went to number one, he was so proud. And he, again, when I signed this band, he said, I think they were going to be huge for you, Simon. Really? Yeah. And, but this was a really crazy story about where, how we signed the band because Louis Walsh was always calling me. I've got this band in the world. I've got this band in the world. And that's, okay, Louis, okay. I'll come to Dublin. I went to Dublin. He showcases this band. I absolutely cannot bear them. And I said, this is never going to work. They just don't look right, Louis.

1:09:32I don't think I just, the answers, no. I think a couple of them are okay. You're wrong. I said, okay, fine, I'm wrong, but I'm not signing them. And then three months later, he calls me and he goes, um, I've taken your advice. Would you fly back? I'm like, okay, so I fly back. They start the showcase for me. Within 30 seconds, I said, I'm in. Done. You'll hear from my lawyer. You won't hear anymore? Nope. I can see it. They sound great. They look great. Blah, blah, blah. We signed them. And then a month later, it turns out that he has died. One of the guys hair blonde to sneak back into the band.

1:10:22And that's Shane. Because when we audition them the second time, they all have blonde hair. I don't know why that made a difference, but it's a typical Louis story. They still succeeded, though. They did fantasticly. Well, yeah. And in fact, I think we still have the record of, uh, for, I think it was their first seven singles went to number one. And I don't think that's ever happened again. You described that moment as, as bittersweet. In your book, I read that you all time to tell your sort of family that this album had gone to number one. Yeah. And the news that you got back was that your father passed away from a heart attack.

1:11:06Yeah. Yeah. I went to Germany to this big conference. And, um, you know, I did quite a big presentation on, on the group. And, uh, and the reaction in the room was huge. And so, and I, I, I, I, I also was hearing the record was really selling. And, uh, and I called and I could just tell something wasn't right. And I, I think someone said to my mom, don't tell Simon what he's there. And then I found back and she told me and I'm like, I can't believe it. Because I genuinely, at that point in my life, I just believed my parents were going to live forever. I mean, it was that. Um, and yeah, it was.

1:12:00It was tough.

1:12:06Um, however, I do believe in God. And I do believe, um, uh, because the hardest thing when you do your parents is, you, you can't even think about them afterwards because it's too difficult. You know, everything is. And then after a while, it's like, when I have a question in my mind, I do talk to them in my mind. What would you do? And I know what they would say. So, they're, they're, I really do still believe there would be. But that was very bittersweet moment, you know. Um, and, and probably, you know, at that, you know, I would have swapped everything. I'd succeeded, you know, take it, I kept him around, you know.

1:12:56Um, uh, and all the things that, you know, he taught me over the years, it all just, you know, and it was the longest trip home for America. You know, that, that fly was, it was bad.

1:13:24It's a credit to them. Yeah. And, you know, like I said, look, thank God, you know, he, he was very wise. And he did give me a good steer.

1:13:42And like I said, a lot of things that still do now. I still think of all of my dad say, you know, uh, because he only lost his temper with me once. And boy, when he lost it, it was like, I don't want to go there again. But, you know, he, he never hit me. He, nothing like that, you know, but he raised his voice once at me. And that was enough, you know, but he was very, when he was angry, you knew it. But I also, you know, I think he would have got a real kick out of seeing me on a TV show. I know he would have just found the whole thing really, really funny. He didn't see you on a TV show? No, no, no.

1:14:27That came a few years later. But, you know, at least, he'd seen me, you know, succeed, you know, and that meant as much to him. I know it's a did to me. Just the purpose and the meaning of all the work you're doing change when you lose someone who was so central to, um, why you are where you are. And thinking about your, your, this sort of immediate people often describe they understand the nature of what their priorities should have been in their life when they experienced the loss of a parent, because you're right, we grew up. And even now it's almost like I think my parents are going to live forever.

1:15:06Yeah. It hasn't crossed my mind. I'm living my life as if they're going to live forever. Yeah. Well, like I said, having gone through, you know, which was no question in my losing, you know, both my parents was the hardest thing ever happened to me. But I can sit here and honestly look you in the eye now and say, because everyone says, you know, when you lose them, you know, in time, it'll get better. And you think, no, it won't. The truth is it does as long as you believe. And you have to believe that their presence is still there with you. And I do genuinely believe that with my mom and dad.

1:15:44And, um, oh gosh.

1:15:54Have to give me a minute. Okay.

1:16:05Um.

1:16:14My mom.

1:16:18You know, she started to get dementia, but you know, fortunately, you know, saw Eric. She really wanted me to have a kid. And she bought him this, um, uh, brown blanket. And, uh, he still has it.

1:16:37Literally everything is about the brown blanket. You know, it was with my brown blanket. And he said to me, uh, when he was about two or three after, you know, she passed away. He says, he's just looked up at the sky one night. And he said, I'm thinking about, uh, grandpa, Eric and Julie. And it was just the way he said it. It was like, gosh, why would you say that now? And, and that's when I genuinely really started to believe they are still somehow with us. You know, it's, it's, it's not a total loss. Um.

1:17:27And I think, you know, maintaining that amazing relationship with both of them, you know, up until the point, both of them passed away. They were my best friends, you know, uh, I could tell them anything. We could talk about anything. And, you know, it's, it's how I feel for Eric. You know, it's just that pure love. You know, they just want the best for you. And in return, you, you feel the same about them. And it's how I feel about Eric. You know, it's, everything starts to become full circle. Thank God, you know.

1:18:05You described the loss of your father in an interview in your book where you said, it put everything into perspective, all the things I thought were important chart positions, doing showcases with the band and everything else. None of it meant anything anymore. Yeah, that's true. Really? Yeah. Genuinely. Um. Uh, I can say that because, of course, I, I really, really enjoyed every successful moment of my career. Even when things haven't gone quite to plan, there's still a story, you know, or something to be learned from it. That combined joy versus the devastation you feel when you lose someone, it's, there is, you know, it's, it's, it really is meaningless.

1:18:59Your life really seemed to change drastically when Eric was born. Yes. I think that's even like a bit of an understatement because yeah, when I speak to your team about Simon free Eric, they describe a man that is a workaholic to say the least. I was reading about you staying up to 80 am in the morning frequently to work in. Yeah. Just this absolute obsession with detail and working Sunday, Saturday, calling people at all hours. Um, three Eric Simon, give me a true reflection of that man. If I was a fly on the wall in his life, what was, what was I seeing every day? Well, I think particularly when I lost my mom, um, I just was on a downward spiral at that point, you know, it was like, I lost everyone.

1:19:59You know, I've lost my, my, my parent, this finality now. And what I said about the material things I've got, everything just meant nothing at that point. I was desperately unhappy. I wasn't particularly enjoying my work and I just thought, you know what, I'm just going to become a vampire then. And I would work through till seven o 'clock, at eight o 'clock in the morning. Um, I would wake up at two or three in the afternoon. And I actually got addicted to that kind of lifestyle, which was I just love the intensity of, it was almost like, because of the loss I'd had, I've got to find something else to fill it.

1:20:49And it was, I'm just going to become a ridiculous worker, I mean, and I was very successful, but I wasn't happy. Uh, really, really wasn't happy. Um, and it was like, the expression is this is good as it gets. That's how I felt. There was certain people in my life at that point, giving me advice who would just, shouldn't have been in my life. Um, and, uh, and then when I got the call for Lauren, which starts, any to call which starts with, are you sitting down? You know what's coming next? It was like, are you sitting down? Yes. Well, and she told me, and yes, it did, uh, absolutely, uh, change, change everything in my life.

1:21:46I mean, it made me happy again. For me, it was perfect because, you know, like I, we were talking earlier on about our childhood, you know, it was just brilliant. It's like fantastic. I remember the first time I watched Jungle Book with him, and I'm looking over and seeing the joy he had watching that movie. It was like, oh my god, I remember how I fell when I saw the Jungle Book. He saved you in many respects to me without question, without question. Yeah. I really, really, I've reached the point where nothing mattered. Even to the point where I almost can't even remember everything from that period.

1:22:25It hit me so hard. I was like, because the hardest thing also was being on television as well, because I'm like, God, I feel like a clown here, you know, because I'm dying inside. And yet, you know, I've still got to, you know, do what I'm being paid to do, you know, as best as I could. But, you know, I, I put on a ton of weight. I was eating just junk. It was like, if I had got hit by a bus the following day, well, I'd be dead. But I wasn't worried about anything like that, you know. Was there a darkest day in that period that you were calling? Yeah, the whole, the whole time was dark. Yeah. I can absolutely relate to when people reach the lowest levels, you know, you possibly can.

1:23:24Where essentially, you know, being alive doesn't matter anymore, you know, because you just go, what have I got to live for? Did you have those thoughts? Yeah. Yeah. I'm not not thinking I want to take my own life, but thinking if I, if, if, if something terrible happened, it wouldn't bother me, you know, to myself. What I, what I have learned, fortunately, is, unfortunately, we are all going to go through this. And it's how we cope with it. And being able to talk about it, you know, I mean, I've spoken, you know, publicly about mental health. Particularly men's mental health because there's no question.

1:24:07I've had, I do still suffer from depression at times. I've really suffered from depression in the past. I am actually very thin skinned at times. Particularly when someone is disloyal, you know, that I take things like that very, very badly. I noticed this because I read, it's interesting. I read, I was reading loads of articles, loads of things, trying to translate into what I do, and I was doing all this research. And the word loyalty came up over and over and over again as something you would say. Yeah. Sometimes in interviews as being really critically important to you. Yeah. I was thinking, why is, of all the people I've interviewed, why is loyalty the word that he uses when he describes artists he's worked with in bands and right Louis Walsh?

1:24:57Yeah. I've watched an interview where Louis Walsh said, the thing Simon loves about me is I'm loyal. Yeah.

1:25:06Because of, you know, a lot of what we spoke about today, you know, my upbringing, my working life, you know, nothing was ever handed to me on a plate. You know, so, but when people took the time, you know, like people were to men, there have been, fortunately, a lot of people over the years who've been amazing have come in and helped me achieve, because I could never have done what I did without, you know, the people who worked with me over the years. I've just been very lucky in the main 99 % of the people have been just fantastic. However, I, I, yeah, I take it really badly when someone who you considered to be a friend rewrites the narrative afterwards and they become, because things happen worked out for themselves, they have to blame somebody else and it's like, but we're all in that position, you know.

1:26:16There's certain things I can't talk, I would talk to privately about why that particular time, some other people I was working with, look again, on the bright side. As long as you're happy today, which I am, thank God, and I'm at peace today, thank God. Then, then, a lot of the bad things that happened previously, it's like, well, that, that's your destiny, you know, if, if the lights had been red and said a green on a certain day, the air may not have been conceived and that's how I look at life, you know. Your new work life balance, I find it quite interesting, you've put some, a lot of sort of parameters and boundaries in place in this new, with this new post -Eric Simon Cow, some of which are, you know, you don't work Fridays, I read that.

1:27:13Not really, not really. Okay. You don't engage in emails after sort of 5, 30, 6 pm, really? Never. Interesting. Never. They have social media. I have it, but I don't look at it. Okay. So, how do you stay awake when you log on your phone? Well, you know, I don't have a phone. You don't have a phone at all. Well, I have a car phone, which I occasionally use, which is actually an American phone, and I swear, I don't even know how to use it. So, you don't have a mobile phone? I have one that sits in the car, nine times out of 10, I'll use some of my phone. Somebody else's phone, because I don't even know how to work anymore.

1:27:55I hate them so much, because I do why I think they're boring. It's almost like, for me, it's like having a toaster with you all the time. It's like, it's a toaster. And a phone is just as boring. You know, it's like toaster is nice, and occasionally a telephone calls nice, but not all the bloody time. When did you make that decision to get rid of your phone? When I realized by not being on it for about three or four months a year, I was happier at that time. And then when it was like, oh God, it's time to turn my phone back on. I started to dread it. And then one day, I thought I'd lost it, and it's, oh God, I've lost my life.

1:28:41And it's, oh, I'm stopping so dramatic. It's a stupid telephone. I don't use 99 % of the things on it. And I actually really like talking with people, like we're talking now. I like meeting people, and I like talking from a landline, if I have to, because the sound's nicer as well. I think people would be pretty shocked to hear that Simon Cowell doesn't have a phone, because you've got this business empire you have to run. You've got all these people, these artists, these TV, you know, all these things. I'd have like an existential crisis if someone told me that I had to get rid of my phone, because I think my business is going to crumble or obviously it depends what you do.

1:29:25So what I do, weirdly, it kind of helps, because you hear about the important things in life. You don't hear about the unimportant things, and that's the best way I suppose describing the advantages. So when something really serious happens within seconds, you'll hear about it. When it's just some piece of gossip or something, which I'm really not interested in, and someone said, did you hear about Simon? So it's like, no, and I'm not interested, because I'm not. So someone has to get hold of you. How did they contact you? I always say, honestly, if you want to get hold of me and you know me, you'll get hold of me.

1:30:10You just will.

1:30:14You really will. You will get hold of me. Obviously, you know, I have a PA. I have a partner. I have friends. How does she get hold of you? She calls me at home, and I mean, drives crazy. What would you say to the work hell ex out there, including me, that I haven't quite yet had life teach us the hard way?

1:30:47Oh my god, I don't know where to start. What would you say to Simon at 31 years old, which is how old I am? 31. Well, I would say work hell genuinely from the good things that have happened. How much time are you spending time on where your gut is telling you this isn't worth the effort. But your ego is sort of saying, but it's your idea. So it must work. There are always going to be moments where you have made the wrong decision. And sometimes it's bailing out earlier than you should. Rather than just, let's just hang on to that. Or also understanding that certainly when you're doing something creative, I believe that you can only really be creative when you're not tired.

1:31:43I'm certainly at my best when I slept well. I'm feeling fit. I'm feeling happy. Then I'm in a completely different mindset. You know, I would, because I still see each episode before it goes out about three or four times. So don't forget these episodes are about the length of a movie. So I'm watching the equivalent of two movies a week. Every second, every sound cue, every audience shot. I mean, it's the focus you've got to give it. It's unbelievable. So I think I would have said, you know what? So I'm, why don't you enjoy what you're doing a little bit more? Is the fifth day going to really make a difference if you're working better on the four days?

1:32:38Is not really going to make any differences the truth. By the way, it's much more fun having a three day weekend than the two day weekend.

1:32:50And it's just stuff like that, I suppose. Did you used to think that if other people weren't working at the same tenacity as you they weren't as interested or they, you know, because I'm thinking about how you now interact with the people you work with. If back then you're working at eight in the morning, I imagine you're dragging a lot of people with you. So what?

1:33:18I did drag a few people along with me. And I apologize. Having said that, one thing you can't escape is that to be good at anything, you've got to put the hours in. It is hard work. I mean, look, yes, people with the lottery. You hear about these crazy success stories, but they are one in a literally a billion. I mean, for me, the majority of people I've met who haven't inherited anything, but have just built something on their own. They've done it because they're talented. They've got great instincts. And importantly, they have really, really put the hours in. Because if somebody comes to work for me, it's a 21 years old and says, you know, 530 right, I'm off.

1:34:02And don't bother calling me on the weekend. I'm going to go, well, I'm not going to bet the house on you. You know, when I was younger, genuinely, I didn't even think about weekends. It was like when I was a runner, you know, I would do 18 -hour days and loved every second of it. Because for every day I was doing it, I was learning something more. And then I think, you know, there is a point where when hopefully you've realized that you've kind of got your groove, you know what you're doing, you're being successful, you've got a good team around you. Then I think it's a question of, okay, well, then don't kill yourself in the process.

1:34:47I mean, seriously, find, and this is, you know, going back to phones, you know, which is, and I'm the same with emails, is, if, even if it's great news, and you get the news at 7, 8 o 'clock at night, you can't just go right, I'm going to sleep now, because your brain's going to go into overdrive. And I think, you know, getting good sleep is crucial, absolutely crucial. You hear about these people who survive before I sleep and I'm like, how? You know, I need like 10 hours if possible. I really believe that sleep is the best medicine your body can have, and the ability to be able to sleep peacefully, you know, that's really, really important.

1:35:42Imagine if all time and had, you say that, it'd be like, you're right.

1:35:51You said don't kill yourself in the process, but, 2020, you had a very, very serious accident, which was, unfortunately, at the time of the pandemic. So we're all trapped inside anyway. You're on a electric motorbike where you had an accident and broke your back in three places. You had a very intense six hour surgery, which included having a metal rod put into your back to stabilize it. And according to all the accounts that I've heard, you were very lucky to be alive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, yeah. It was pretty bad. I think that's an understatement, what I've heard. Again, there is a silver lining because I wasn't fit.

1:36:36I thought I was fit. I looked okay, but I wasn't fit. I was really getting up. Even though I changed my hours, I was still getting up going straight to the telephone, and I would sit by that telephone for hours and hours and hours. And I really wasn't getting the steps in. I wasn't eating properly and all this kind of stuff. So once I, you know, it was a bad accident, and I knew it was bad the second it happened. And the recovery was pretty difficult. However, I had a fantastic nurse, and she litry. She was lighting up, you know, how a cookoo just pushes the bird out. She just one day said to me, just get out into your garden.

1:37:23You walk 20 spaces, just do it. And they did it. And it was hard. And then I just built up, built up, built up, built up. And then I started to build up my step count over time. And then when I really had to put the proper steps in per day, my feet were just like, like, ragged because they weren't used to walking. So it was weird. If I had to go back in time again to get to where I am today, I would have gone through that again. As bad as it was, the upside was worth it. Because if I hadn't broken my back, I don't think I would have ever realised how unfit I really, really was. You spoke about, because the pandemic is an interesting time to have a, like, debilitating injury like that, because your trapped inside as it is, when you have a back injury or any severe injury like that, you're immobilised.

1:38:19And all of this has a really significant impact on your mental health, because I've sat here with people who have had a back injury like Craig David, I remember him telling me, the darkest depression he had in his life was when he injured his back and couldn't move much anymore. And how that has a knock on effect of all things. But then you have the pandemic as well, which is keeping you indoors. I heard you were inside for a long period of time because of that injury, because of the pandemic. You stayed in your house there for a long time. Was it almost a year or something? Yeah, yeah. If I was a fly on the wall in that house during that time, what would I have seen?

1:38:54Well, again, the hardest thing was, because the guy had to, he got so bad I had to sign a form, just before I had the operation, which was, if this doesn't work out, would you allow us to switch the machine? Well, that's encouraging, just before I'm about to go under. So I'm thinking, this could be it. But I was in so much pain. I was just thinking, just please, please, just get me out of this pain. And the first three days afterwards, I was like, actually, it's painful, but not as bad as I thought. And the doctor said, yeah, you've got pain receptors in your spine right now. They're going to wear off in a couple of days, get ready.

1:39:48And when they wore off, it was like, whoa, it was unbelievable. And then I'm on all these pain -killing drugs, blah, blah, blah. And you know what I'm doing? I'm funny, my lawyer is saying, where's my will? And then I'm also trying to sell a show at the same time. Unfortunately, my PA knew I was just all over the place. And she was saying, yeah, the person you're trying to get hold of isn't available right now. But obviously, I was just so delirious. I was just all over the place for the first three days, because after traumatic injury like that, you are. But I had a fantastic surgeon. I really got off the painkillers much earlier than they thought I would like a month earlier.

1:40:43And that was for me really significant. And then when I started to put the steps in and getting up to 20, 30 ,000 steps a day, without my feet falling apart, it was, and I actually, it was worth it, genuinely worth it. Is this when you first went to therapy around this time? It was, yeah, and I think it was probably because after that injury, and all the time I had to think about things, I really had a chance to kind of really think things through and go, it would be actually crazy for me not to go to therapy after everything I've gone through. And talk to somebody who is an expert, who you can trust, who can advise you.

1:41:37And it's a bit like really going to the gym, you know, it's like, wow, you feel great afterwards. And it's, you know, you think initially, you're always going to be embarrassing. How do I start the conversation? But there's a, there's so goodness, so well trained at what they do. It gave me, I don't know, it just made me feel better in so many ways, because stuff that used to bother me, I would talk to them about, and, and you almost kind of get the answer, you know it's going to be, but someone needs to tell you other than yourself, if that makes sense. You know the answer, but you kind of need someone to validate it.

1:42:19Did you go to the, I've been to therapy, I've also been to therapy with my partner, do couples therapy, I've done that, which is really useful. Yeah, my god, ours would make the best reality show ever. I think things are going to be the idea. Seriously. What was the, when you went to the therapist, was it because of how you were feeling following the back injury and the pandemic? Or was it just more broadly that you hadn't processed a lot of things throughout the last couple of decades? Was there a specification you went with? That's a good question. I think I met a few people who had, who were in the entertainment business, and we spoke a lot about, how do you deal with this, how do you deal with that?

1:43:03And they all, well, two people in particular said, we went into therapy, and they said, have you tried it? And I went, no. They said, try it once, see how, how you feel. And when I went, it was very interesting because what you realize is that most of us have actually bottled stuff out, you know, somewhere in our bodies, and it's like a release. And, and we all need that release, because there's something in your brain, which you haven't spoken about, or something that's bothered you, and you don't know who to talk about, or whatever, whatever, whatever. And actually, it's not a weakness. If anything, it's a strength to be able to admit that we are all vulnerable, that we're none of us are perfect, that we do need help, and there are people much smarter than us, who can just help you, and why not take advantage of that?

1:44:00Because I promise you, I don't believe there's a single person in the world who would go to a great therapist, and then walk out and go, yeah, I didn't need that. But we love to donate. In the same way, we're discovering things about nutrition and food, and the importance of that, and a lot of what we were talking about, social media, and some of the negativity, all these things, we're not programmed. I don't believe to deal with so much, so quickly. So we've got to find different ways of not just sorting your bodies out, but sorting your mental. It's not even mental health. It's just life. It's that, just having someone who's trained to...

1:44:55to give you better priorities, other things to think about, things you don't have forgotten about, all those kinds of things I learned through doing it. Has it had a big impact on you? Massive. Yeah, massive, yeah. And in fact, I got out the habit only because of my schedule, and due back, I think, it was about two or three weeks' time, and I literally can't wait. Because I really do think I found someone special. Is named Justin. If he's listening, Justin, you are the best. I adore you. And I consider him a friend. I really, really like him and respect him. Sometimes we don't get to say to people how much we appreciate them, and or the impact we've had on them until they're gone.

1:45:47Because especially as men, sometimes we can be a little... I'm just bigger for myself here. I can feel a little bit, I think, how I was raised a little bit, a little bit, about expressing my emotions sometimes. Yeah. So, Justin, for example, what would you say to Justin in terms of how he's helped you, if he was listening? I think he... If we had a list of what's the most important things, the top ten list of priorities, he's changed the order. But what would it be in my one to ten? He's shuffled the order. So, something that might have been number eight, might have become number three now. And he's simplified my way of thinking, which is...

1:46:33He said to me, I think you actually overthink a lot of things, by the way. And I'm like, actually you've got a point I do, actually. And a lot of what we've been talking about today, a lot of this has come from working with Justin. And like I said, having absolutely no embarrassment whatsoever about the fact that I needed it, I think... Like I said, a lot of people in my opinion do need help full stop at some point in their life. And it is nothing to be embarrassed about. It isn't. Eric comes to you and says, Dad, you've built an incredible business. You've been incredibly successful. Dad, I need some advice.

1:47:24I want to be successful in my career too. I'm planning on doing something special, which I don't know what it is yet, Dad. But I want to be successful in when I go into the professional world. What advice would you give me, Dad? Based on the career you've had, what are those foundations, those fundamentals? I'm going to say to him, be good at what you do. And therefore be patient and learn. And the learning and the getting there is as enjoyable as being there. Because in my opinion, it is having gone through both sides. I've been at my happiest when I'm broke. I've been at my unhappiest at times when I've been wealthy.

1:48:11And I've also been happy when I've been successful. The most important thing is on a Sunday night, you want that feeling of excitement that Monday is coming. And it's something to look forward to. And that this is what we're supposed to do in our lives. Is do something which we enjoy. And it's not a question of having more than other people or less. It's irrelevant. There's always people who are less than you and more than you. That's not really the measure of your happiness. Your happiness stems from achieving something, believing in something. And just loving what you do. I'm very lucky because I still love what I do.

1:49:07I mean, yes, there are times. I'm like, God, this is a long day today. Or, you know, it hasn't been a great day. But overall, I pinched myself still because I'm fortunate enough. But I'm able to do something which I really, really love doing. I love creating things. I love thinking of things. And I also like the idea that somehow I'll make it happen. And even if it takes me 10 years, if I still have that strong belief, somehow I'll try and make it happen. And if it doesn't quite work out, at least I can say what I gave it a shot. And I also say to him, don't blame other people if it doesn't work out.

1:49:52You know, you have to trust your instincts. And you have to have a strong work ethic. But enjoy that. And that's why, you know, as I said, finding something which you're passionate about is, for me, it's the most important thing, more than anything else. And because, like I said, you know, going back to the time when I was in the post room and an estate agent, you know, I'd loved being in the mail room a thousand times more than being in the estate agent. It just, you know, it was a great example, you know, when I, you know, changed jobs to make more money, it actually made me more unhappy. Because I didn't like the people, you know, I hated the job.

1:50:39And I don't say all the estate agents are bad, by the way, this particular company at the time, and I might be right now, we're awful then. But that's what I think, I would say to anyone I like or didn't like, you know, finds your passion and then try and be the best of it. Legacy. Legacy, yeah. That's been front of mind a few recently, hasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it is a lot. Yeah. And to your point, you know, when you are, when we're doing something like this or something I've made in the past, I'm always aware, or if I'm editing a clip on a great contestant, I'm very aware that that is their legacy as well.

1:51:26And I want to make that clip like perfection in my mind, you know, I want every second of it to be beautiful and cinematic, you know, and because they live online, online forever, these clips now. But yeah, legacy is, I think about this a lot, definitely. And I think somewhere I read, it was a great quote about, I'm going to say this really badly, but it's along the lines of, if you live your life with your eyes open wide enough, you will eventually find the person you're looking for. I, my people, or some of them, you know, because don't think, certainly when you're younger, that you've got all the smarts to do it yourself, you know, being smart is finding the person who is smarter than you, who is willing to take you under their wing.

1:52:25But to get that person to take you under their wing, you've got to show them, I'm prepared to put the work in as well. And if you could paint the picture of your own legacy, the legacy that Eric will remember of Simon Carl, what was, what is that legacy that you would like to leave him with? And I guess the world with, oh, well, I think I like people. I mean, I genuinely like people. I remember being about six years old and seeing somebody, I think it was their ideal home exhibition. And, oh, my God, it's so, so, I'm a complete starstruck. And I just went over and said, hi, can I have your autograph?

1:53:20And he went, no. I was like, I was destroyed. And I have never, ever said no to somebody. It drives Lauren, and even Eric sometimes crazy, because I don't care in the middle of dinner or whatever I'm doing. If someone wants to picture an autograph, I'll always say yes. Because I take it as a compliment, you know, because they watch something I've made. And I also know and reverse what it feels like if someone's rude to you, because if you don't like people, you can't do this job. So I hope my legacy will be that, you know, I kind of achieved everything, you know, without a head start. And I've treated people well.

1:54:16That's what I would like to think I'll hand over to Eric, both of those things. Although you have changed your life in many ways, extreme, extreme ways, very extreme ways, from the sort of the pre -Eric Simon to the post -Eric Simon, who has put boundaries and balance in place and is focusing more, you know, you talked about that priority list of 10 things with your therapist. It's quite clear in everything I've read that number one priority right now is the family. Yeah. And everything is secondary to that. That's accurate, right? So I think... Yeah, yeah, it is. But I think what concerns me a lot at the moment is, and I hope things are going to change, is that I do see bullying on the rise.

1:55:01And I think that is partly due, well, actually a lot to do with social media. I do see, unfortunately, people unhappy because they think they need material things in their life to make them happy. And look, of course, it's better to have money than not, but it's not everything. And, you know, like I said, I can genuinely say that because I've experienced both. I prefer to when I had money, but it wasn't the end of the world when I didn't, you know. And so I just... I get sad a lot of the times when I think about people who think, well, you know, I'm not great at school. So what am I going to do with my life?

1:55:56Or I need everything by the age of 21 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, actually, you know what? It doesn't have to be that way. You know, if you really, really do have the patience. And like I said, you might have a friend who's got a more flashy job and blah, blah, blah. But if you're going to be doing it to the long haul, you're going to be better off at the end. You know, is trying to get that message to people, you know. I was just thinking then about one direction, in fact, I'm friends with some of the boys. I say some of the boys, one of the boys from one direction. And they...

1:56:32How do you like make them ambitious, but at the same time?

1:56:39Because I sat with Liam and he was on the podcast and he talked about his struggles. Struggling with all of these things that the change in his life. We all wish and dream for that. Yeah. But then the reality is something that no one can be prepared for. Yeah. The brain is not set up in such a way to deal with that amount of hysteria around you. So has your thoughts around this changed or evolved based on your own experiences, assignment, and the things you've been through?

1:57:11Well, personally, I think it's better to have success than that. Yeah. What is great, I mean, what I said to the boys, and you know, it was quite obvious, you know, once they were on the show, they were going to be really, really successful with the right records. I mean, they just, for me, they would like the perfect group. I think the most successful artist you've ever developed. Oh, gosh. I actually don't know the answers to that. No, I mean, I know they were very successful. They sold a lot of records. They made a lot of money. I said to them, a lot of what we're talking about, which is, don't ever complain about paparazzi, because they are going to take you pictures.

1:57:58Don't complain about invasion of privacy, because people are going to always want to pitch -taken with you. Don't complain about the long hours, because there are going to be long hours. So if none of this, if any of this is a problem, just do something else. I mean, because I promise you, all of this is going to come with it. There will be times where you're going to go, my God, this is a gruelling schedule. And, oh, my God, can't someone just leave me alone for one minute, because I want to have my dinner. Why are you taking my picture? That is going to come with the territory. And the truth is, it's worth it.

1:58:40It's a very, very, very, it's not even a price to pay. It just comes with it. It's hard work. You are going to become well -known. And you are going to lose a lot of your privacy. If you want to be in a accountant, you're not going to have any of those issues. It just won't be as much fun. So, you know, some people want to be accountant, some people want a more exciting life. I've always been a huge fan of bands, because it's a much easier way. First of all, I think it's more fun being in a band than being a solo artist, particularly if you like your bandmates. It's a brilliant way to get noticed if you want to become a successful solo artist.

1:59:29Like, they've all become. I'm being in the band with the catalyst to that. You know, I'm about to do it again this year. You know, so I heard about this. You're searching for another boy band. Yeah. And I'm doing it because, you know, right now, there isn't... I don't think a band who has been as good as one direction since one direction. In my opinion. And if you look at the amount of solo artists versus bands right now in the world in port music, it is unbelievable. I mean, if you think of Motown and that whole era, it was as many bands as there were solo artists as something has gone amiss.

2:00:16And the only way I know to put a band together is somebody has to audition them. So we just thought, you know what? If I don't do it this year, I'm going to really regret it. So let's just do it. And we're going to document the whole process. So this time, you're going to see exactly what happens from the minute we go, we're going to do it to how you logistically do it. How do you choose the people? Blah, blah, blah. Because I think it will be interesting. But there's no safety blanket on this in terms of I haven't gone to a record label and go and say, right, I'm doing this. Will you guarantee me a record deal?

2:01:05I've got to hope that the band are good enough to get a record deal. What's the secret source?

2:01:13People, I mean, it is personality. I mean, I think that's the one thing about one direction is they all had great personalities. And they were just interesting people. And as the first time I saw them as a band, after we asked them to be in a band, I was in Spain and I saw them walking up the beach. And as they're walking up the beach, everyone's looking around. No one had ever heard of them at this point. And I thought, is some believable? Everyone's looking at these five boys. Is it they're already stars? And there was something, there was just this glow about them. And because, you know, I've had hits with bands, I've had misses with bands.

2:01:58And it could be that I was 1 % off or I was 80 % off. I don't know. But when it doesn't work, there's no money in the world that will make something that isn't going to work. It's just one of those things. You just got to hope you get lucky and find the right people. Have you got better at it? I don't know. It could be that I'm completely useless now. All I know is if I had to trust anyone to do it, I would trust me more than anyone else. I would. And are you waiting for a feeling? Is it like, or is there like some kind of data in AI and some Excel spreadsheet that ranks them based on, you know, these things?

2:02:44Is it a feeling? Yeah. It has to be. And this is the difficulty. Is that you are selling an act to somebody who I'm not. You know, your fans are going to be primarily teenagers. So you kind of got to guess what that audience are going to like. But don't overthink it because I've seen a lot of people, particularly recently, put bands together. And they walk out. And within one second, I'm thinking, all of this is wrong. I can tell that someone's told them what to wear. I know what their spills going to be. It's all rehearsed. Nothing spontaneous. And I'm thinking, why does that person, whoever's behind the scenes, why can't they let them just be themselves?

2:03:48That's why I said to one direction, which is, look, I can just give you a broad kind of over, like I said, this is what's going to probably happen when you're successful. And then after a few years, you're going to want to leave the band. That's going to happen. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, no, no, we're going to be friends forever. I said, yeah, whatever. Do what you like. And that was sort of it. I just say, when you got a problem, come to me.

2:04:17It's really down to you to make this work. You've got to love the records you make. You've got to influence the records you make. You can't dance. You don't want to try and dance. Don't have a higher stylist, because you've already got great taste. And just be yourselves. And really, really have fun. Because, like I said, there will be days where you're going to go, oh, God, I'm really tired. I don't like this. And no one will leave me alone. And then in 10 years' time, you're going to look back on this and go, wow, we had a blast. Could you have predicted? I know all the boys have done really well in their endeavors, but Harry has become, well, he still is a mega star.

2:05:05And often with boy bands, once they break up, you know, they're kind of some of them fizz -alout and whatever. But Harry seems to have just taken on, you know, he's really managed to find his own groove. Yeah. It always, I'm not a lie. I mean, the first time I met Harry, he sang a Stevie Wonder song. We just talk about pies. So I'm not sitting there thinking you're going to become one of the most successful artists in the world in 12 years' time. I mean, no one would have thought that. I just thought, you're unbelievably charismatic and you're fun. And the audience are like you and great. And then for whatever reason, it didn't work out, in my opinion, for the Missoulo artists, you know, for different reasons in that part of the show.

2:05:55And then we just had this idea in the moment, put them in a band. And then, like I said, you know, where I think pretty much all of them have done great, is that they've used the group as a vehicle to go where they really want to go in their lives. And would Harry be Harry without one direction? Well, none of us could answer that. I couldn't tell you. All I know is being in the group definitely made it easier. Of course. And that's why I thought interestingly about seven or eight years ago, I thought there's not going to be any need for these shows anymore because of social media. And here's the crazy thing, is that the amount of UK artists that have broken globally in the last say seven years has fallen off a cliff.

2:06:49Literally, if you think about how many global artists British have broken globally in the last seven years, it's possibly three, which is crazy. So I think of three. Well. Right. Oh, okay.

2:07:11So, is AI a concern, an opportunity? Does it cross your mind? I think both. I don't think you'll ever beat the real thing. Having said that, it'll happen. I mean, soon arrived later, I think there already is a Japanese artist who doesn't exist. And she sells out stadiums.

2:07:35So there's no question it's going to happen. But people are always going to be more interested in the real thing. If you go to a concert, you know, you want to see those people, you want to say, I was within touching distance of that person, not something that doesn't exist. I would agree to much, a big extent, I actually think that a lot of the people that are actually building AI like Samaltman the other day, he said he believes that there's going to be a huge surge in people's demand and desire for real, in person entertainment and experiences, especially in a world if AI causes a little bit of a displacement in the job market and we have more free time, which is what he's the guy that's building a chat GPT.

2:08:15He says that we're going to see the industry boom around entertainment. And I've actually got a billionaire friend that lives about five minutes from here in a penthouse, billionaire and biotech, AI, everything. He's just a super smart guy. And when I sat with him, he said the same thing to me. He said, do you know what's going to boom? He said, people's need for entertainment in a world where a lot of the work can be even, you know, cars being a driver is the biggest employer in the world. The autonomous vehicles that are driving around San Francisco as taxis now are a glimpse of that future.

2:08:44So all these people that are going to be displaced in some way will need, will have a lot of free time. And that will cause us to be, you know, maybe living communes, but also just to really go back to in real life experiences. And I did a post year the day about this, how you see opposites rise, polar opposites rise together like digital music surged vinyl records becoming a bit popular in bowling alleys and now, you know, seeing a surge and these sort of flight club and these sort of in person experiences because we've become so digitalized. And I see entertainment as one of those things like the entertainment industry, concerts, festivals.

2:09:23Yeah. It's being a nice place to run to from headsets. No, I think you're right. I think it's a, it's a good point you make about the two opposites. Fastest in slow fashion, we saw that rise as well. Well, he's so fascinating as well is, is, is seeing these brands, which are 50, 60 years old suddenly become super huge again, whether it's Lego, whether it's Mario Brothers, whether it's Barbie, because sometimes, you know, there's his feeling of, I might just saying things were better because I'm just getting cranky. Which is quite depressing. And then I go, actually, no, Queen or David Bowie or Elton John were the best artists of all time.

2:10:15I mean, George Michael just is. And I don't think there's anybody in the world as good as George Michael today. I genuinely don't. I wish there was because by the way, he was one of the nicest people I'd ever met in my life. I really, yeah. But no, I think we're just going through a very interesting time right now. And I'm a great believer that in Bray so anything that's going to help you, don't dismiss it. But I still think, you know, when again, when I was talking to one direction, I remember saying to them, our goal is for you to have enough hits that if you ever reform that you can do stadium tours.

2:10:58That means you've got to have about 10 hits singles. Because that's what people want to hear. They want to hear the hits. And you know, if they ever did reform, that's exactly what would happen. Are they going to come back? I doubt it. You doubt it. I doubt it. Spice Girls came back. Spice Girls came back many years later. The one thing I regret is I should have kept the name. Oh, you should have owned the name. I should have owned the name. You didn't own the name. No. Who owns the name? They do. Oh, okay. That's the problem. Could have made an animation or whatever. But when you give an artist the name, it's not yours.

2:11:36And that's my only regret. So if you're listening, I'll buy it back from you. So they all follow the name. They can do it as a partnership. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, sure. There we go. Yes, yeah. You were there. But that's the only thing I do regret. Because if one of the band members for whatever reason say they don't want to tour, it can stop the others touring. So if it was me who owned the name, it wouldn't be a problem. You could do a tour with three of them. So that's what's stopping a tour because they all own 25 %? I believe so, yes. I can be very naive at times. And that was me being very, very naive.

2:12:24So next time that will be part of the deal, I have to own the name. They can still make most of the money, but I need to own the name. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. So the question that's been left for you by our previous guest was, what one decision could you make today that would have the most important thing? Positive impact on your life long term. Don't eat sugar. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Nice to meet you. I thought you were an argument. Sleepen does not good for you.

2:13:09Thank you so much.

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