The Big Porn Debate (3 Experts Debate): The Unseen Dangers Of Nofap, The Adult Industry Is Exploiting Our Brains, How Porn Will Change Your Brain!

26:59They know all the conditions beforehand, etc. They can give feedback afterwards. I think there are ways of producing pornography that are safer than what we have seen in the past. We were talking a second ago about the impact pornography has on the brain, and I know some of your work involves dealing with people who have erectile dysfunction. Some of the stats I read on erectile dysfunction show that there's been quite a significant increase over the last couple of decades in people reporting to have erectile dysfunction. Do you think porn has played a role in increasing erectile dysfunction as it relates to one with my panna in the bedroom?

27:34I don't try to have sex. So I think this goes back to the people who are watching pornography and are learning what sex is through pornography, and then they go to their sexual encounter with their partner, and they don't respond the way that they do on pornography, or their partner doesn't respond the way they do on pornography, and immediately they feel insecure, immediately. And that leads to the psychogenic erectile dysfunction, where you are no longer able to perform because you're so stressed about the anxiety of being able to get an erection, because maybe things didn't go the way they were supposed to, or maybe you're insecure about your body image, or a whole host of things that come from watching maybe some of the big box pornography, where we're not really showing real sex, we're showing a produced product that is meant to entertain and captivate people for a short period of time.

28:24And so I think that is one certainly issue that I do see, where people start feeling this, the other thing is where people are using pornography quite often, and then they again are unable to get that stimulation through a partner, right? They can't get the same, they're using death grip, or they're using the same, this very erotic, stimulates very intense, visual, erotic stimuli that they can't produce with a person. And so then they're like, well, why am I not getting aroused, and why am I not getting an erection? And it's because they've now relied on this solely. So I do see that certainly as an issue in some people who are using pornography.

29:04But I don't think it's like pornography use leads to ED. I think it's these other factors on the way to having psychological concerns about your own performance that lead to issues with erections. And before we move on, Dr. K's point about motivation as well, do you believe that there's a correlation between the amount that we watch pornography and masturbate and someone's motivation based on what you know about dopamine receptors? You know, hard to say, I think again, it's very individual. Certainly some people will take the, like, you know, there is a availability part when it comes to any sort of addiction type behavior.

29:41So when something is more available to you, and you're using it more often, it can become more problematic. And so certainly, I think that plays a role in terms of like if you're using it a lot and it's very available to you and it's an easy way to emotionally regulate, right? If you're having stress in life, you're unhappy with your relationship or you're unhappy with other things, people are often using pornography as a way to avoid those negative emotions and really just participate in something else. Like, take their mind off of that. And so that is sort of where it becomes this challenge for some people.

30:15Yeah, I just want to chime in. So this is fantastic because I agree with everything that you all are saying. And I also kind of come to a slightly different conclusion. So the number one search term that we have is how do I quit porn? So when I hear that and I think Dr. Maulick has also done a great job of pointing out, you know, there's a difference between anecdotal clinical experience and what we have randomized clinical trials on, you know, we're not exposing seven -year -olds to pornography and then seeing how their brain develops by doing MRI scans over the course of 10 years. So some of this research is absolutely not there.

30:50And we also have the number one search term is how do I quit porn? What that tells me is that there is literally the largest population of what people are looking at is to stop using pornography. And I think the reason for that is is their good partner is their bad porn? Is it individuals? It nuance completely agree with all those points. It's not a problem for everyone. But I think what I'm seeing very clearly is that it's getting worse, right? So it's not an issue of good or bad. What is the trend that we're seeing? We're trend the trend that we're seeing is that Erica is saying, hey, pornography can be more than the tube sites.

31:26So that then begs the question, why does everyone think that pornography is the tube sites? Because they hijacked the system. Exactly. So I think that word is beautiful hijack. So I think what we're seeing, what I'm seeing is that pornography is getting worse for sure. It's becoming more of a problem. If we look at these tube sites, there, you know, it's kind of like there's nutrition and then there's calories. And a lot of what I'm hearing y 'all talk about, you know, Dr. Malik is saying, if you watch it as part of a relationship, that's nutrition. It can be something healthy. We can learn about ourselves.

32:01We can destigmatize various things fair enough. But I think we're seeing the same trends that we see with like fast food where now pornography is becoming mass -produced. And there are actually studies that show there's a really fascinating bizarre piece of research, right? Which is where you have to go. This is where I've gone to find the stuff because we don't have studies. But there was a particular group of biologists who were noticing that a population of beetles was dying out. And they were trying to figure out like why is this population of beetles dying out? And what they discovered is there's one thing that's responsible for these beetles not mating with each other, which is green beer bottles that were being littered.

32:40And the green beer bottle, and then what they noticed is that the beetles were trying to go up to the green beer bottle and mate with it. And they were like, what is going on? You'd see this this litter that has green beer bottle and a bunch of male beetles are clustered around it and like they're like, what is this? And it turns out that there's this concept of something called a super -normal stimulus. So when a beetles eyes look at the environment, there's certain signals that indicate this is a fertile female. And a green glass beer bottle activates those parts of the brain. And what we're seeing with these tube sites is things are jiggly or things are louder, things are slipperier, right?

33:20We have these 4K high -deaf like so we're sort of turning, we're taking what used to be nutritious and we are turning it into fast food. And that and why all these tube sites, why are they successful? They're in this Darwinian war that's kind of like a race to the bottom. How can I create the pornography that is going to leach the most traffic away from my competitors. And they're figuring out very rapidly that there are all kinds of weird ways to activate the brain. What our brain looks for and what it gets excited about. And so it feels to me like there's a race to the bottom. We're making pornography for money.

33:57We're making it more addicted. But the thing is that these companies behind these tube sites, they are not interested in human sexuality, they're not interested in sex, they're not interested in porn, they're not interested in the conditions of the people who are working in front of the camera. I mean, they're selling advertisement. And what do they need for that? They need content that is extreme that has words that are click -baited, that are kind of small clips that are quick to watch. They look at their algorithms to see what works, right? But this is a reminder of the food industry. Yeah, it's a famous big farm.

34:33It's a famous big farm. A big fashion, et cetera. Big porn is the same. How does an industry succeed if it doesn't engage in that practice, though? Because think about the food industry. The thing that has the most sugar in, that's the most available, the cheapest, is the thing that's going to succeed the most. So we think about these tube sites. Some of the stats are crazy. I mean, only fans released their earnings for last year, up 20%. They made 6 .6 billion. And porn hub, one of the big tube sites, is the eighth most traffic website in the world at the moment, doing 5 .5 billion monthly visits.

35:04These are the brands that people recognize. And it's extreme. Like, if we think about nutrition, high in sugar, it's extreme. So I get the most extreme sort of dopamine stimulation. It's so easy to access. I can, one, I don't have to put my shoes on and put my aft to shave on. I can just, I can get on there within 15 seconds. For me to get laid, I'm going to have to put in some work. I'm going to have to go to the gym. I'm going to have to take care. I'm going to have to go get a job. I'm going to have to get some money. I'm going to have to learn how to speak to a woman or 15 seconds. And I can see the most extreme.

35:39Yeah, I think that's the problem. But I do worry to some, I'm going to play a little bit of devil's advocate. My devil's advocate would say that because there's so much moral and congruence that leads to problematic, porn news, porn addiction, whatever you want to call it, right? That we're creating more of it by disparaging pornography, right? Like that everywhere people are saying pornography is bad, pornography is bad. You can't go on any social media platform without somebody citing a study that says pornography is leaching people's life force and their, you know, their life is falling apart because of pornography.

36:10But, right. And so, but so then we're also adding to that moral and congruence by saying that all pornography is bad. Paragraphy is there because we're watching it, right? And so people, like, if you asked, like, probably the generation older to me, like, would you be would you be in a watching porn where you're seeing the things that you're seeing now, which I mean, shocking to me, right? Like, they would be like, no, I don't want to see that, right? Like, that doesn't interest me in the slightest. But like, why is this becoming so, you know, people are watching it. I mean, to me, so much of this is totally amdiatic.

36:45I sometimes go there to investigate and to kind of see what's what's going on and what's happening. And I feel like, oh, no, don't joke it is. I don't want to see it. Oh, I rather throw up than, you know, feel excitement and wanting to have sex. So it has an opposite effect on not so far. They're audiences actually. But again, what is it about? It's about earning money and concentrating power. It's about selling advertisement. That's what you're doing. It's grow your dick pills. It's days to sexy Latina in your neighborhood. It's and as a society, we have very slow to see what has happened because these sites, they were born, you know, 17 years ago, 2007, they came out.

37:34It happened very, very fast. So a couple of thoughts. The first is like, yeah, that's exactly what's going on is like, so if we think about it, we have all of these every part of our brain, right? Oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, estrogen, testosterone, right? Those are hormones, non -stop brains. But, you know, every circuit of the brain, all of our neurotransmitters, they're all to help us procreate. And now what's happened is people have fundamentally hijacked all of these circuits. And we're seeing problems. And I'm with you about the moral incongruence because we see this in other addictions as well where we try to like demonize like alcohol usage, right?

38:13And we know that once we separate out the moral incongruence because once I feel guilty and ashamed, this is something I see a lot. I watch pornography. Now I feel ashamed. How am I going to cope with those emotions? Watching more pornography. And so you create this cycle of like more, like this moral focus cycle of shame. And that actually fuels the dependence. So that's absolutely an issue. At the same time, like these companies, and they don't care about eroticness or falling in love or whatever, right? They're interested in making a buck. And they're exploiting our brain. And while we should be a little bit careful about the moralistic nature of it, I mean, I've seen it gets so much, it's getting worse like every time every year.

38:53And this could be selection bias, right? Because I'm an eviction psychiatrist. But I think it's like even with something like only fans because now what we're adding is a social component. The one refuge we used to have when it comes to pornography, whether it's ethically produced or non ethically produced is that there's no way that this person is ever going to pay attention to me. I'm just consuming something. But now, now I can interact with someone. Someone can send me a DM, hey, thank you for watching my video and jerking off. That makes me so happy. But you know, it's an AI bot, right? Sometimes it's so.

39:26So I know it's an AI bot, but I am so ashamed of myself that, you know, take whatever water is given to you in the desert. I am so alone. I feel so bad about myself. And there's a chance, right? There's a chance it's not an AI problem. The real problem is that we are not speaking about sex, we are not speaking about intimacy. People don't have the sex education and they are lost. And they are human beings. They have this drive and this need and we had it in all cultures, right? Do you think people have the sex education? They would still be on only fans talking to what's probably because there are big agencies now.

40:05I've seen on social media, there are big agencies of men who pretend to be these porn stars on sites like only fans. And I see them breaking about their income. So speak thing on Twitter at the moment. I've made $10 ,000 this month pretending to be this actress speaking to young men on only fans. Yeah. And I think the reason that men do that, part of the reason is because they know what men want to hear, right? There's a part of us that they know exactly what to say because it won't be an AI bot. It'll be this kind of person. And now what's happening is we're activating the social loneliness aspect and combining it with pornography.

40:39So now you actually have a relationship with maybe an AI bot, maybe a dude, right? But there is like some amount of genuine human interaction over the internet. So this is getting worse. And I think sex education is an excellent point. At the same time, I don't know if sex education is going to be sufficient because I think we can teach people about their bodies, but we're also seeing like a whole scale social skills atrophy where dudes don't know how to talk to girls anymore. Yeah. And it's important to understand that it's telling us messages about the under roles, how we interact, the bad sexuality, how our body functions, etc.

41:20So we have all this misinformation going on on this online huge media of free porn. And we see women screaming in fake orgasms after four minutes of hard penetration. And as a woman, you look at her and you say, she didn't even use her fingers. What happened? And you just know that something is wrong here, that this is fake. But then there's lots of men out there thinking, this is what my girlfriend should be doing. This is how it should work. And then they don't connect in real life. What kind of porn do you make? What kind of porn do I make? I make lovely porn. I make beautiful porn. I make cinematic porn.

42:01I make porn with, you know, with intentions of showing different ideas of desire and fantasy, where people, I try to work with people who are connecting, who show chemistry together. I ask my performers who they want to work with. I try to team them up. I support them with a system of intimacy coordinator, talent managers, producers in the background that take care of them, that's check who they are, what they like, what kind of sexuality do they have. But if I was a consumer of your pornography, what I noticed, that I would probably be the great cinematography would be the first thing you would notice kind of narratives that are erotic driven somehow where people explore their desire and their sexuality, you would notice, you would feel very, I mean, many people tell me, they go like, Eric, I watch your films, is it really porn?

43:04Because they identify porn as something that is kind of tacky, ugly, kind of objectifying, etc. So suddenly when they see people in my films having sex coming together and everything is kind of, you understand why they are desiring each other and you kind of, I invite them to join this kind of erotic journey of the characters. Then they go, but this is more like like in this cinema, in the erotic cinema. Is it fair to machine that? Because from what I've heard, the pornography you produce is, has a slower story arc, which is more reflective of what. Sometimes. Okay, so I'm trying to understand, because the things that you, it sounds like you might have removed from the pornography you make versus the pornography I'd find on one of the big tube streaming sites, the most popular videos on the tube streaming sites.

43:59It sounds like you might have put yourself at a bit of a competitive disadvantage in many respects, because those streaming sites, if they're incentive is purely money, the data is going to determine what people see. So that's, so it feels like they've really optimized for user consumption where you've optimized for something around ethics. Because I care about it. For me, the money is not the most important aspect, why I, you know, created this company, why I'm making this. I really want to kind of send a different kind of message out to the world. Do your content end up on those sites? Sometimes, sometimes, years ago, it was taken on those sites.

44:42For example, changing the wording of it, because I remember that many of these sites, also what they do, is that they fetishize people, they use very racist language, chauvinistic language, etc. And my movies may have much softer kind of language and the way they are. So they obviously pirated them, they put them up, and they changed kind of the wording for the bits. It was a very hard process to take them down, etc. What do you think is better for someone's relationship, specifically, sort of men and women, do you think no porn is better for their relationship? Do you think your porn is better for their relationship, or do you think any of these individuals?

45:28I think it's a very individual decision. What works best? Sorry. I can never see where your films. I can tell you it's her point. Better than no point. I'm going to go ahead and go out on a limb and saying that if you're someone who's struggling with pornography, watching an erotic film with a glass of wine, with your significant other, is a great way to transition from bite -sized, fast food, calorie dense, jiggly, slippery, loud porn to, how do we rewire the brain? How do we move one step at a time from this to this? The word erotic seems so powerful to me. It's about anticipation. Even when we talk about differences between male and female sexuality, the lag time of parasympathetic activation and for play is so much more important biologically and correct me if I'm wrong here.

46:21For women than it is for men. We're ready to go and we want to make it short. It's almost like a part of that sexual education is in understanding how can we teach men to be erotic again. Instead of these very chicken nugget style, highly processed, this is what I think it is. Maybe watch some of Eric's film. When we talk about watching pornography with your partner, I wonder if that is the role of the exception to the role. Yeah, I mean, so you're saying what do we do? I think we have an erotic film watch party. We have anime watch parties. We have different kinds of watch parties. This thought had never occurred to me before.

47:02I'm sure it is a terrible idea. On that point though, if you reduce the stigma by having these watch parties, does that then, because you cited earlier that it's a tool for emotional regulation. When people are stressed or depressed or anxious, they seek it out. If we remove the stigma, does that increase the addiction? It's a great question. I think it goes both ways. What I mean by that is, we run into addictions when this substance becomes or behavior becomes one -to -one correlated with something else. Right now, the problem with pornography isn't that it, yeah, so the problem is, if I watch pornography, that's the only method I use to regulate my emotions, that will increase the addiction.

47:47Now, the flip side of it is also true. If the only reason I watch pornography is to regulate my emotions, that will strengthen that addictive capability. So, I'll give you all just a simple example from like alcohol, right? So, if I use alcohol after a hard day's work to get through the day and calm down, and then I stop drinking for fun, whereas alcohol can be used as an emotional coping mechanism, or it can be used to celebrate a wedding, right? So, the substance can be used in different ways, and the more that we use it in different ways and healthier ways, the more it actually chips away at the addiction in some cases.

48:25This is also highly individualized. So, depending on your genetic predispositions, dispositions and stuff like that, you may not be able to drink at weddings, but we also see the opposite, which is like, a huge number of people are qualified for an alcohol addiction in college, and then most of those people are able to develop healthy relationships with it. And one of the biggest changes we're seeing in addiction is that there do seem to be healthy relationships that we can develop. I think it's about changing our relationship to the thing. Now, seeing someone naked, engaging in a sexual act is not solely about getting off.

48:58It's not solely about emotional regulation. It's not solely about dopamine. It can now become a film experience that we can enjoy. So, we're diversifying our relationship to the object. I don't know if that makes sense. It's like an analytic awareness, mindfulness, understanding of how you use that. And then I think this is also great, like just the simple idea that like if dudes are watching this, recognizing that watching an erotic film with your significant other, assuming a heteronormative, heterosexual relationship, maybe a great way for you to enhance your sexual experience. You don't need dick enhancing pills or whatever else, because that's, and I'm sure Dr.

49:42Mollick knows better than I do, but in the majority of the, no, I met more as a urology. I didn't think that, but okay. I've worked. So my understanding from med school, right? So back when I was doing urology, and I worked with some things like vaginismus and stuff like that, is the majority of the female nerve endings are at the front end of the vagina. And if you get all the way back to the cervix, that's like painful. So you don't actually need a gigantic penis. I was trying to think about whether I should use some other word, but you go ahead. And so to help like, and if men are the ones who are primarily having this addictive problem, then let's call it what it is, which is help men realize that sexual pleasure, engaging in a relationship, that pornography can be a force for good.

50:30And doesn't necessarily have to be evil. But and maybe like, erotic film moves us in that direction. And like, I just got to say, man, like my degenerate male brain is kind of telling me like, you know, watching an erotic film for an hour and a half could be the best and easiest for play that I could ever do. It would be a lot easier. Yeah. It's pretty quick. But I would say, we don't think I've been thinking about what we've been talking about this is we don't talk about erotic audio literature or erotic books, which is more commonly used by women, but we don't stigmatize that. Like women are like, oh, I love these books and I read them all the time.

51:06And nobody is sitting here saying like, it's bad. I don't thoughts on that. Because it's not naked bodies. I guess here, the main problem again is back to our bodies. We are somehow ashamed of our bodies, of our nakedness, of our sexuality. I mean, women can show nipples online. We know that. You can't I mean, I'm heavily censured. I can't show anything on my account. My social media accounts are cut off all the time. It's impossible to grow. Do you think pornography should be banned on social media? That's okay. Should pornography be banned on social media? Yes. Pornography should be banned. I can answer it out.

51:46I'm making it. I definitely think it should be banned. But I don't think that the explicit images should be banned. But the right to discuss about it, to talk about it, to give sexual advice or to you know, discuss different topics around sexuality. We should be allowed to do that. We should be allowed to do that. No, I get banned too. Really? Because this doesn't get banned. Maybe you are allowed to do it. YouTube is different. Twitter is fine, Instagram is fine, YouTube is fine. Instagram is okay. I have head talks that are censured. Only people who are over 18 and have an account online have access to watch them.

52:32And it's me talking. Yeah. No, there is definitely limitations. The thing that we've noticed is your video just doesn't appear in search in the same way. But they still recommend the video. So when we had for example, Andrew Huberman on a couple of weeks ago and he talked about pornography because Paul was in the title in the thumbnail, the video got huge recommendations by the algorithm. But if you typed in Andrew Huberman, it would not come up until we took the word, pull out and you type in Andrew Huberman and it comes up. That's anything we've noticed. But we've been quite surprised actually by...

53:03Yeah, I think it's so cool that you ask me that question. She jumped in with an answer. No, I think it's good. I think it's like... Because you asked me... I mean, I think that's the value of this. Because I don't feel nearly as passionate. You asked her the question, which of these is the best? And I jumped in with an answer. I was like, this is clear to me. And I think just a couple of things that I just want to touch on. The first is that what Dr. Bolic was saying about audio literature, like erotic fiction or romance novels. So I think it's harder to commoditize that, which goes back to Eric's point of...

53:38Some things are more likely to be turned into fast food. So I think that erotic literature, it's harder to do that. I also do think that going back to this earlier point of man or epidemiologically more vulnerable to addiction, I think it's more complicated than that. And it just psychological hurt or problems manifest in man as addiction and look different in women when it emerges. So I think it's kind of like... So we're sort of seeing a difference in addictive quality. It's easier to commoditize more sensory organs. So I think that's an important point. And I think in terms of should it be banned or not?

54:18I don't know. So I work kind of like more at the individual level and arguably some at scale. But like one of the key things is, you know, I have some ideas about what should be done. But I'm not too sure about that. I'm curious, you know, I don't know. Like I mean... No, but I'm saying it basically because it's open for kids again. This is why I'm saying it. If we're having social media and it's for people 18 about, then we're talking about another thing. But go to Twitter or it's not called Twitter anymore. There it is. Go there. And it's full of porn. It is. It is. It is full of porn. You can accidentally stumble across porn.

54:58I was saying this to my partner a couple of weeks ago. I said, look at how Twitter's changed. And I said, watch this. Scroll down my timeline. And I know there's an algorithm I dwell on something more often. Then it's going to show me more. But I scroll down. I scroll down. I was like, look porn. And I was like, oh, look, she's taking a close off of scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. I didn't realize it was new to the algorithm. It didn't happen. I've actually not seen it, but I've had many people who tell me that it comes up on their feed all the time. Recent changed the algorithm, which is prioritized again, viewership time.

55:25So if you want people to dwell longer, show them video extreme video, people being shot, someone being hit by car fights, pornography, you increase your dwell time, you increase your advertising. And this is just how incentives play out. So much of the discussion we've had today and much of my like, why I refer to it sometimes as a being idealistic, because sometimes it can sound like just give them broccoli. When actually, if you leave them to their own devices, no one's going to want broccoli, they're going to take the cookies if the cookies are available. And if you equate this to food, we did put labels on food to say, look, this has got this much calories in it.

55:58We put sugar tax on sugar in the UK. We, on cigarettes, we say, if you smoke these cigarettes, this is what's going to happen to your lungs. And we put explicit images of how your lungs will get, you know, cancers and things like this. Should we be doing something similar with pornography? Because part of me goes just, you know, saying we should just give them broccoli, this kind of like erotic, different point, they're not going to, they're not going to eat it. No, but also, again, adults, I think they have the right to watch pornography, whatever kind of pornography it is, as long as it's legal and, and, and well done.

56:31I wish all pornography would be ethically produced. I know that the industry is working towards more standards, etc. Because, you know, we have been as a society talking about it, they don't have much of a choice because if they don't go that way, should we, should we tell them about the harms of pornography at the point of consumption like we do with cigarettes? It's a bit difficult, maybe, I think we should, we should talk about what could happen. What effects like gambling, like, but this also happens, you've been talking about gaming a lot, you know, there's a way of gaming and healthy gaming, right?

57:12There's a way of video games that it's too much and not too much. What do you think? That's okay. Yeah, so I mean, I think it's, it's a great question. So I've got like a couple of different things. So I'm going to about contradict myself. So the first is that we know that, you know, putting warning labels on things does move things in the right direction. But I love to just share a story. So when I was a medical student, didn't really understand much about medicine or psychiatry or humans, you know, I had a patient who came in and was smoking. And so I came in and I was like, you know, he came in and I was like, first year medical student.

57:43So I was like, I'm going to be a doctor one day. And so this person comes in and I'm like, sir, do you know that smoking is dangerous? It can cause lung cancer. It can do this. It can do this. It can do this. So person's like, yeah, you know, like that sounds bad. I don't want to get sort of like great. We're going to give you like a prescription to help you quit. And you can get a nicotine patch. And like I was like, I'm going to be a doctor one day. So one later guy comes in and like I ask him, how's the quitting smoking going? And he's like, well, like I'm still smoking. And then I was like, I don't think you understand, man, it increases risk of heart disease and stroke and all these kinds of things.

58:13Like it's going to like do all this kind of stuff. And he's like, yeah, oh, that's bad. I don't want to be of that stuff. And I was like, cool. So like you're going to quit, right? And he's like, yeah. And so I, then he comes in and I comes in the next month, he still hasn't quit. And I started to try to figure out what's going on, right? So one of the key things that we learned is that if you want someone to eat broccoli instead of cookies, um, telling them that cookies are unhealthy for you isn't good enough. So we need generally speaking when you look at recovery from addiction and behavioral change, you have to have a good enough reason to do it.

58:45Yeah. So I was still blunt and I figured this out and talked to my my preceptor and stuff and then I asked this person, so what's important to you? And he's like, oh, I, you know, I love my daughters. And then I asked them a very bad question. I was like, when you, and he was like, I was like, what, you know, tell me about your daughters and he was like, you know, I can't wait. Like, I'll know I can die a happy person once I've walked them down the aisle and I they're married and stuff like that. And then I asked him a question. I was like, when you walk down the aisle, do you want to be carrying an oxygen tank behind you?

59:12And he was like, what? And I was like, if you keep smoking, that's what's going to happen. Or maybe you'll be in a wheelchair. Right. So I was a first year medical student kind of brutal, but that actually sunk in. You have to connect with people with what they care about. Yeah. That is still a warning though, isn't it? You've put a warning back. Absolutely. But it's it's it's a little different, right? So so it's individualized. But even now when we do, you know, I'm I stream on Twitch and I try to get people to stop playing video games, which is like holding an AA meeting in a bar. And what I've discovered is I'm with you.

59:42We've lost a lot of faith in humanity. If you give them a broccoli and a cookie, they're going to take a cookie. But I I'm still hopeful. I think that we do see the number one search is how do I quit porn? There's a lot of energy and desire to do it. They just don't have a path. And I think one of these very simple things is like emphasizing an erotic film and telling people, hey, if you're lonely, hey, if you're having trouble finding a relationship, you know, hey, if you're if you have a problem with premature ejaculation or you're having difficulty engaging in a sexual act and can't achieve orgasm, what you need to do is slow it down.

1:00:17Don't make sex a three minute jiggly slippery experience. Slow it down. Watch an erotic film. reprogram your brain. Like I bet you money that if we somehow figured out if we told people you can reprogram your brain by watching erotic film and we could say that scientifically, that would be incredibly successful. Because I think people are hungry for this, right? They're hungry for what we were biologically designed to do, which is connect and have fulfilling sexual relationships. What should take a map? Yeah, I think that that's that would be helpful. Absolutely. Because I think it's telling someone to go cold turkey from having something that they do derive pleasure from, right?

1:00:56Even if they're even if they have addictive potential, addictive personalities towards that behavior, then giving them something else that they can still derive pleasure from and have the benefits of orgasm and have the benefits of feeling that desire and enjoyment is is a really great way. When you tell someone you take something away that they've used as a crutch potentially and they have nothing to replace it with. And you know, we've talked about this for giving people a purpose. A lot of times people don't have purpose. And so they're like they have nothing else to do and they're like, go, I'll just do this thing because I'm bored.

1:01:28And that's one of the reasons people watch porn is if they're bored. And so you give them a purpose, something else to do, whether it's an maybe it's meeting people outside in the real world, which would be even better. That would help our issues with not getting married, having high divorce rates and not having kids, right? But like I think those would be great solutions if we could come up with ways to get people to either find a substitute or find purpose. Interestingly, there's clearly a two -way relationship with purpose, porn, motivation, etc. So giving them a purpose one might say, well, then we stop porn because they're not have more motivation to put their shoes on.

1:02:04Yeah. So I think if you look at there's one study that showed the two strongest variables with pornography addiction or a sense of meaninglessness in life. And I forget about the other variables. Maybe early age of exposure. But so I think it's kind of spot on, right? So when I don't have a life that's worth living, what happens? My body and my brain become squeeze bottles of dopamine. Because what is the joy of life? So I try to just extract as much dopamine as I can for my brain so that I have some joy in the day, some kind of pleasure. And then I watch more of this mass -produced, super normal stimulus pornography because that squeezes more dopamine out of my neurotransmitters.

1:02:47And the more that my life becomes that, now there's a moral component. Now I feel ashamed. Now if I remember looking at some statistics on online dating profiles, and like saying that you're a dude who watches porn is like an instant no. But if I'm watching pornography, it's going to sat me of the motivation to pursue my purpose. Absolutely. So if I'm extracting all my dopamine through watching pornography, I'm going to have none left for behavioral reinforcement from other activities. So reading books becomes not as much fun. Going to a park becomes not as much fun. So it's absolutely this vicious cycle where meaninglessness, I have no reason to do anything all day.

1:03:25So I might as well watch some porn, not a radical. So we cancel porn, man. No. So please, let us have it. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the majority of my income and my brand would collapse if you started banding so strong. I mean, I think there I think we have to, I mean, I think there's a lot of things we've talked about. I think sexual education, I think understanding that, you know, explaining to younger kids what they're watching, right? I think adults have a little bit more their brains are fully developed. They understand what they're watching. They know it's a produced product. They presumably have already gone through the process of finding a job and doing other things that give them purpose.

1:04:11Maybe they have told maybe they have a family, right? But, but the, I think it's really in that young generation. They're finding themselves. Maybe they're going out and they're not finding a partner because we know that there's less people coupling. There's higher, you know, mismatch of expectations. We've talked about that too in terms of dating. And so, you know, it's, it's very easy for those people when they're still trying to figure out what to do with their lives to fall into something like that. And I think if we really focus on that generation, I think, and that's a generation that probably shouldn't be watching porn anyways, right?

1:04:42And, and I think that would make huge, a huge difference. And help parents because parents are really, really worried. How do you do it? I mean, you, you, there's many way of kind of, of, of, of starting it. But they, what they need to know really is that you are there for them, you are open. If they have any kind of, of doubt, situations, you are going to be there for them. This is not a subject that you are going to, you know, bail out because you feel too ashamed or you can't handle difficult questions. I would tell parents, educate yourself if you're having kids, you're going to have to talk to them about sex.

1:05:20So if you didn't get the education, what age? You need to start when they're really, really young. You need to start when they're learning language. I mean, young kids today, many of them, they don't know the difference between a vagina and a vulva, even Billie Eilish in an interview came out saying that she wanted to put her face in, in people's vaginas. And you go, what? What happened? You're talking about vulva girl, you know? Yeah. No, it has to start from, I completely agree with everything you're saying. I have kids. I've talked to them about sex. I think you have to start early with at least knowing the anatomy, right?

1:05:54Knowing what their body parts are and what the body parts are of the opposite gender. So that they know that they're different and, and all that stuff. And then honestly being open, they're going to ask you questions like if kids are curious. And so they'll come home and think, what's this? What's that? And not being like, I'm not going to talk about that. It's just like, okay, yeah, let's have a conversation about it. And let's talk about it. And realize it's not going to be one conversation. It's going to be like throughout their development as they become older, you're going to maybe introduce more topics or they may have a question for you and just never shaming them.

1:06:24And that can come even early, right? Kids are masturbating. Babies are masturbating. Like as a young, that's a soothing behavior, right? And so sometimes you'll see your child doing it. You don't want to shame them, right? Because that's already setting up that stage of shame. So sort of a lot being like, okay, that's fine that you're doing that, but maybe do that in private. And that's something that you do in private. But you know, I think it's really important to have these conversations and it's uncomfortable. It's going to be uncomfortable. And know that it's going to be uncomfortable. But like we have a duty because they're not going to learn it at school in the right way or enough in school.

1:06:56Yeah. So I completely agree with what they said. So it's really interesting because the number one question. So when we started working with gamers, what happened very quickly as parents started reaching out and they're like, hey, I have a son who's got this problem. Usually a son sometimes a daughter, 70, 30. And how do I talk to them? So we actually started doing a study in 2020, 2020 or 2021 where we started developing different kinds of techniques and measuring what worked best. So now we have four years of data. A lot of those findings went into the book about how to raise a healthy gamer, which is actually all about conversational techniques for parents about how to talk to their kids.

1:07:34So for four years here, the biggest takeaways. So that book is like, it's conversational techniques about video game addiction. But we find this works really well for pornography too. So the first is like Dr. Mollick said, multiple conversations. So the first mistake that parents make is that they think that they have to get it all in in one conversation. This is talking all that we said about. No, it's it's lots of second thing. Start earlier than you think you need to. Yeah. So one of the biggest principles that we learn in, you know, medicine is that you don't have end of life conversations when someone is dying.

1:08:09You have to have the conversation before it's an issue. So I think we were talking about you said what 64 % of people get exposed to pornography at the age of 11, right? So accidentally, accident of still. But so that what that tell parents think, oh, I like, I can push this off and wait until they're 14 or 15. And and of course, my betta is not going to watch it. He's going to he's so good. Not my betta. We just let him do that. Right? Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. I noticed you said you talked to your kids about sex. Have you talked to him about porn? Yeah. Okay. No, they're one. My other one. Nice.

1:08:40Good job. You're betta is going to be so good. So I think it's going to be multiple conversations. Start earlier than you need to. And then there are a couple of really nice techniques that you can use. So the first is asking open -ended questions and not about do you watch porn? It can start with, hey, are you familiar with what pornography is? Do you know what it is? What do you understand about pornography? Another really good evidence -based technique, which has been shown to be effective for talking about drugs, is do you have friends who watch porn? Do you have friends? Do you know people or kids in your school watching this?

1:09:15Yes or no, what do you think about that? So oftentimes you don't want to ask the kid directly. You want to ask about what's happening around you. And then you can ask them what do you think about that? Do you have questions? So make yourself a resource and signal to them that, hey, we can have this conversation. And it's preparing them for the world, really, it's giving them the tools to be able to manage situations that will come up. Because sex is not easy and they're going to be in difficult moments. And if they haven't been prepared, they're going to know better how to respond to those moments, you know?

1:09:54If they're watching that pornography, though, the type that's available on those tube streaming sites, do you believe that it will cause or lead to a rise in violence between men and women? Because when I look at some of the statistics around this, nearly one in three porn videos contains physical violence. And almost 90 % of the most famous porn scenes are violent scenes, 18 to 21 -year -olds, out of 18 to 21 -year -olds, 79 % had seen pornography involving sexual violence when they were children. And almost 50 % of young people say girls expect sex to involve physical aggression, such as airway restriction.

1:10:29And according to a study in 2004, of 18 to 35 -year -olds, they found that 57 % of young people aged from 18 to 35 had been strangled themselves during sex, and 51 % had been strangled at least once during sex. And my last step on this is the BBC revealed that 38 % of women under the age of 40 have experienced unwanted slapping, choking, and gagging during consensual sex, and 42 % of these women said they felt pressured or coerced into doing it. So we can allow people to watch pornography, but it's they're not a risk that at a very young age, at the age of 11, we're going to learn that sex is a violent act, and that's going to make us more violent.

1:11:11It's going to start with you. Yeah, this is a really important discussion. And I think, you know, I actually spoke to Debbie Herbinek, who leads a lot of the studies on strangulation. And so basically what they found is that very commonly young people, college age students, are having strangulation or during intercourse, or during four plants, become so common that it's almost like kissing, right? Like this is something that is so common and often consent is not being discussed or the cake. Can I do this? Yeah, it's all right, but it's not like a real discussion. And as you guys all know, and especially asphyxiation can lead to loss of oxygen to the brain and sort of a whole host of things.

1:11:47And so I think ultimately that is a concern for sure in terms of, you know, we have ratings and movies for reason, right? Like we don't show our kids like the boys, for example, on Netflix, right? Because it's very violent. And so similarly, we would like to have ratings on pornography and they shouldn't have access to it, but sometimes they see it. Now, yeah, that is a concern. I don't know exactly how to rectify that. Maybe you have some thoughts. Is that because we wanted, though? Elirone, you said that porn is there because we want it. So I'm thinking isn't strangulation important because that's the type of porn that people want.

1:12:20So there is, you know, some people derive pleasure from, you know, from a temporary inclusion of, of, of breath, right? And so there is some people who enjoy that erotically, but that doesn't mean that that's universal. And, and again, it's fantasy. So just because you watch something on pornography doesn't mean that you should be doing it. It's a fantasy. It's not real life. And that's in a, hopefully, a controlled, safe situation where they're producing that pornography. But I think it's very important when we're starting to talk about sexual violence towards women that we understand that that doesn't come from porn that existed long before porn.

1:13:02Sexual violence towards women is a systemic problem we have in our society. And we all know that the most dangerous place for a woman is her own home. It's her own husband or her boyfriend or her relatives around her, et cetera. So the way I see it porn reflects the values we have in our society. I think I see porn a bit as a mirror of many of the, of, of, the values in our society amongst them, sexual violence towards women. But then it's also true, obviously, that nowadays, as porn has become more popular, we're getting into a bigger problem, where their attitudes are also provoked by what they are seeing.

1:13:53So now it's not that easy anymore to say that porn is just a reflection because obviously they also learn from what they see. And then they go into their own lives and they try to reproduce what they have learned online. So in that case, and if I watch violent pornography, when I meet my partner in 1516, 1821, I'm going to have this expectation that pornography looks at. I'm going to think sex has to be performed in this way where I choke them, I hit them, I spit on whatever that whatever because that's the only sexual education I've had. And I got it from Twitter, for example. So that in that case, it will lead to sexual violence unwanted sexual violence because not necessarily it will lead to that.

1:14:35It might lead to a curiosity of trying it out because 42 % of women said that they have been felt they were pressured or coerced into slapping, choking or being gagged. Yeah, and I think many women also feel coerced just to have regular sex many times in their own marriages. What do you think, Dr. Kay? So so many thoughts and I agree that this is a very important discussion. So like I was kind of curious about this because I've noticed there's this rise and like asphyxiation. So the first question that I asked is like, why are people doing this? So what I found is that once again, not randomized control trials that we're going to take 100 people split them into two groups and you're going to, you know, and so the first thing is the physiology is actually like fascinating.

1:15:21So I know this is going to sound random. We don't really know exactly what's going on. But so it's really interesting because if you look at states of meditation, right? So these are states of like bliss. So something changes in our brain when we're in a meditative state. Now what the hell does that have to do with asphyxiation? So one of the most common trends of esoteric and deeply spiritual meditation practices are a very low respiratory rate. Right? So one practice that I did had a respiratory rate of one breath every eight minutes. So that's like, you know, the regular respiratory rate is 13 to 14 times a minute.

1:15:53So what we know is that when the brain runs out of oxygen as long as we don't damage it, and that's the big problem with this asphyxiation is that there's no consent. There's no preparation. People feel coerced into it. Well, we know in meditation is that a high CO2 level and a low O2 level cause alterations in the brain that will probably lead to something like a psychedelic experience, a blissful experience, things like that. So when when we're talking about asphyxiation, something is going on in the brain where we're altering the state of consciousness. We're cutting off airflow to the brain.

1:16:25It can be lethal. It can be damaging permanently damaging. And something can change in the brain that will enhance the experience of sexuality that is experienced that people have. So somewhere along the way people got into this idea, I think the other thing the other basic basic trend that we're seeing is that we're getting sexually desensitized. So if you look at this is not just sexual, but like if you look at, you know, pornography, what tends to happen is what I find arousing will drift over time. So I need to watch more and more hardcore porn to get the same level of arousal. So there's also something that show that there's, you know, studies that show that if you're vulnerable to an addiction, you're also vulnerable to risk taking behavior.

1:17:13So when you take when you engage in risk, what happens is like, I don't know if this kind of makes sense, but you know, I had a patient one who was working in a jail and he was telling me about when he commits a crime. And what he loved, he has really bad ADHD. And what he loves about committing a crime is he is completely dialed in because of the risk. He has a survival reason to pay attention to every single detail. He is so focused on the task and we know that things like flow states involve an intense amount to focus. And so when we're taking a risk, it's activating our dopamine way more. We feel when I've talked to patients who engage in this kind of behavior, they feel the most alive because of the danger.

1:17:54So there's a lot of stuff that is being activated. If it's done in a healthy way, now there's all kinds of unhealthy stuff going on. I think the statistics kind of speak for themselves like my gut check is that while everyone, it doesn't necessarily increase the risk for everyone, I think we're seeing the intersectionality of a couple of things. So the first thing is that men are angry. So we have in cells, we have school shooters, you know, men are resentful towards women. So I think part of the reason we're seeing this violence against women in the pornography is because there's an angry in cell who's home alone who doesn't believe they're ever going to have sex, believes that women are gatekeeping this.

1:18:36And so the masculine predatory systemic, I'm going to teach this woman a lesson. She doesn't get to say no to me. So these kinds of feelings are being someone has figured out on a tube site that if I give men this fantasy, they are going to watch it more and more. And this is what we see. Punish fucking of women. We see punish fucking on women all the time. I'm going to destroy you. I'm going to, you know, banging and smashing and and but you're saying that's a social problem, not a porn industry problem. Also, I think what the porn industry is doing. Yeah, the porn industry is figuring out. This is what all technology is doing.

1:19:15The machine learning is figuring out. The machine learning is figuring it out. So as you cited some statistic about, you know, sexual activity like more virgins than ever before, more sexual frustration than ever before, more frustration with life than ever before. And so let's give you this extreme thing that's check, check checking a couple of different boxes. Interesting within this. I heard something which is you basically have described soft cool pornography as a gateway drug to hardcore pornography because the brain gets desensitized. It looks for a bigger kick like it was heroin or something else.

1:19:49You need a bigger, more extreme experience to get the same high. So if we start people on erotic porn, the broccoli, they're eventually going to get to the cookie. That's a great assumption. I think it's different because I think the desensitization, it's different circuits of the brain. There's a patience to it. There's an emotional component to it. So I don't think I think you're right that if we talk about squeezing out dopamine, could it be a gateway drug? Absolutely. But part of the reason that in this moment, I think it could be part of the solution is erotic is moving away from dopamine.

1:20:23Erotic is not about the orgasm. The dopamine is the orgasm. Erotic is about everything else except for the orgasm. So even when I'm working with patients who have unhealthy relationships with sexuality, the point is let's move away from orgasm. Let's recognize that the sexual act and speaking of the orgasm gap, if you're a dude, you can have sex and not have an orgasm and it can still be a positive experience. And this kind of goes back to the sexual violence. What really scares me is that as people watch this stuff for whatever reason, what's going to happen is they're going to start to think.

1:20:56And I've seen this a lot recently. It's amazing how much this is spiked, how normalize this has become. Oh, I thought women liked it. This is what I'm supposed to do. And then you feel coercion from the side of women. I think it's interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if I wouldn't be surprised, and this is a bias in the literature. Do you feel women as a woman, do you feel coerced into doing this? I don't think we ever ask men, do you feel pressured into doing this? We don't even ask men what they feel coerced in. Because there are not that many masculine scripts either of having sex, there's basically one.

1:21:31And it's, you know, their penetrative sex machine. That's the script. We are being sold. That must be a reflection of the demand. Well, I think it's a reflection of who's making the content and who's been making even traditional media, right? Like movies where you see how people have intimate acts, even though they're not showing the act, right? It's always penis and vagina within minutes, the female orgasms and that's it, right? That's the whole thing. That's not real life. And it's been made by men. I think it's this two -way dance, but really. So I think there's, there's a certain demand that exists because of whatever's going on in the world.

1:22:13And then we meet that demand with conversation, which enhances sometimes the demand for that content or subject. And it's this kind of two -way dance where there's more content about it, so the demand increases and people get more interested in it, and will seize rise, you know? Yeah, absolutely. So I think that that's exactly what's going on here. There's some preset demand, but right now the problem is that the only people who are fulfilling that demand are making highly processed, calorically dense, orgasm, masturbation, focused pornography. We even see this in like other dimensions. Like if you look at literature right now, you know, the fantasy genre has an injection of female authors.

1:22:55So fantasy has changed completely in the last 10 or 15 years. Why is change completely in the last 10 or 15 years? I think maybe what we need is dudes writing romance novels. And consumers, they always have power. Remember that people who are watching porn, they are part of this industry. They are voting with their attention, their time, their clicks online, hopefully with their money because everybody should pay for their porn because porn should not be out there for free for anyone. But it's a, people are working in this. They are, you know, they have lives, they have kids, they have to pay their rent, the food on the table, their schools, et cetera.

1:23:35We have to respect the work of those people. Sorry, I couldn't help the lab. I just realized he said, porn shouldn't be free. We live in a world where food is not a human right, water is not a human right, healthcare is not a human right, but porn is free for everybody. Is porn free? Because it's behind it, different advertising, it's just an advertising model, which means you are the product. So if you're consuming adverts, you're basically paying with your attention. It's just a different currency we're paying with. There's no porn that's free if you think about it. Fair enough. You're paying with your attention either way.

1:24:06You're looking at an advert beforehand, you're scrolling past a display advert on the right hand side of the page, or even on Twitter. If you're on Twitter, you're consuming ads when you stumble across porn. It's a different advertising model. But not the right people are getting the money. The people making the content. Exactly. It's the dealers who are getting it. When you look at only fans, interestingly, 6 .6 billion they made this year, and about 5 billion of that went to the creators. And that's, you know, only fans has been a real phenomenon in culture. I mean, if we look at the porn industry, so it changed a lot.

1:24:43I've been in this industry for 20 years when I started, you know, there was sites online, pay sites, tubes didn't exist, etc. And then when only fans came around and when they become big in the pandemic, they changed again, the rules for this industry a bit. And I do think that it's better that the people who are making it are receiving their, you know, customers directly, etc. and that they can make decisions for themselves. I think it's a good part of the industry that it works that way. No, FAP. A term I only came across a couple of weeks ago. This idea of no FAP, which is, I believe, and you clearly know much more about this than I do, Dr.

1:25:32K. But I believe that the term is, it's proposing a solution to the pornography challenge that some people have where you can completely abstain from watching pornography and all masturbating at all. Rina, if I recall, and I don't want to mischaracterize your opinion here, but I think when we spoke the first time on the podcast, you made the case that masturbation does have positive impacts. So what is your view on this idea of no FAP? Yeah, so I think the movement, it's so the idea of retaining from or abstaining from masturbation or watching pornography is a very individual one. And it may have benefits for some people in terms of they may, because if they're using these things in a negative way, abstaining from them may allow them to have more control over other portions of their life.

1:26:21But a lot of people will misinform people and say, oh, you're going to have a higher testosterone, you're going to have all these physiologic changes, which have not been born out in literature. There's like a very small study looking at men who abstained from ejaculation for 21 days that saw a very small minute increase in testosterone as like 10 guys. So it's not generalized. Well, it's never been repeated. And testosterone varies as it is, quite significantly over days and throughout the day and one day to the next. So ultimately, there's no evidence to support the fact that abstaining from anything like masturbation is actually going to have a benefit more likely than not.

1:26:58Either you're going to have a nocturnal emission or you're going to body is going to absorb that semen. So it doesn't really change what's going on physiologically. Is there an impact on fertility if I masturbate or don't masturbate? Yeah. So fertility, we do see that if you abstain for about five days, up to five days, you're going to see some improvement in the semen volume potentially and also some characteristics of this sperm. But above and beyond that, you start seeing DNA damage and so that can actually be negative if you abstain for too long. So this sperm are effectively dying in the mutation?

1:27:34Well, you're seeing the commutation. So they're not as they're not as effective. They're not going to die necessarily, but they're not going to create a healthy fetus or embryo. That was okay. That was fascinating. I know that's really interesting. So a couple of things to understand. So there are a lot of traditions that abstain from sexual activity. I think we don't study those traditions very well. And I think the key thing to understand, I personally think that celibacy and abstinence from sexual activity can be incredibly powerful. And so I think part of that we have to remember, right? So if we don't have any evidence for something, why do so many people believe it?

1:28:16So some of it is there's a lot of bad information out there. But people, what happens on the no fat community is that people are having some experiences and they're saying this kind of thing changed my life. And there's so many layers to that. So the first is that I think no fat is kind of a way to wrestle with any kind of behavioral control. So if we look at like, you know, people who are addicted to pornography, we talk about all of these negative impacts of the cycle of, I don't know, I'm anything to do any day, anything today. So I'm going to jerk off and then I have no meaning, meaning no purpose, no dopamine.

1:28:49So I'm just like stuck in the cycle. So they want to break the cycle and they just pick one thing. And I think just challenging yourself from a self -control perspective. I completely agree with Dr. Watmalek says there may not be a physiological thing going on here. But just challenging yourself and saying, Hey, like this one thing messes up my relationships messes up my dopamine messes up my purpose and my motivation, I'm going to take control of this and it'll change my life. So I think if you look at it from an isolated stance of masturbation, it may not have much of an effect. We'll talk about the exception to that rule in a second in the spiritual traditions.

1:29:24But I think that a lot of people are just using it as a vehicle to come to terms with something challenging in their life and they're like, they're making a commitment, right? I'm going to do this thing. And the benefit comes from that maybe not any physiological thing. You know, all the stuff about testosterone and stuff completely agree. I don't think that there's a clear thing there. But if you look at some of the meditative traditions, one of the really common things and this is really fascinating because this is true of meditative or religious traditions all over the world. So you'll see celibacy is a part of some of the Abrahamic religions.

1:29:56It's part of some of the karmic religions from the East. So human beings at some point figured out that abstaining from sexual activity can have different kinds of impacts in the organism. So a couple of things that it does is it reduces our thoughts of lust. If we do it the right way, and we'll get to a couple of specific examples of what the no fat community doesn't understand. So when I deprive myself of a particular thing, I sometimes reduce that behavioral reinforcement. So if I look at someone who's addicted to alcohol, you know, when they stop drinking alcohol at the very beginning, their desire will increase.

1:30:31But then 10 years later, they don't even think about it. So if you are someone who is thinking about sex constantly and you stop engaging in sexual perceptions, so remember the thoughts in our brain come from what we perceive. This is why advertising is a thing because an advertiser knows if I can show you this thing, you will think about it. Now, if I'm fapping and watching pornography, I'm getting this perceptual input, which is then creating thoughts in my head. Now I'm thinking about this stuff instead of thinking about something else. So there's that layer of thing too. When I cut something off from my perception, when I break up with someone, why do I block them?

1:31:09Because if I watch their social media, if I get texts from them, that's going to enter my perception and control my thoughts. So they can also use it as a benefit of like thought control if I stop looking at this stuff. This has also been hijacked by generally speaking patriarchal structures for like, you know, there's a particular religious sect of Hinduism where the priests are like, I'm never going to see a woman like no women are allowed in the house if I'm going to come visit your house. Right. So this gets turned into some weird things. But so no fat gives us an opportunity for self control.

1:31:39It gives us a chance to reduce our sensory input, which reduces our thoughts. And then there's also these meditative traditions which say that, you know, achieving esoteric spiritual experiences, which is a lot of what the no fat community like talks about, like they become slightly different human beings. Cellulbacy is a part of that. Now the key thing about the meditative traditions is that they're not taking advice from randos on the internet. So I'll give you all just one really simple example. When you do esoteric meditations, spirituality, celibacy kind of stuff, it's usually accompanied in the Hindu tradition or Buddhist tradition with certain yogic postures.

1:32:14And one example of this is something called siddhasan. Siddhasan is a dept's pose. And literally what you do is in this pose, you place the heel of one of your right foot usually up against your perinium. So you put pressure on the area between your anus and your scrotum if you're a man. It's a slightly different allocation of your woman. And then what that actually does from anatomy, I'm sure you know this better than I correct me if I'm wrong, is that, you know, we know that the blood supply to the scrotum passes through that, right? It's on the underside. It's like in that pelvic floor region.

1:32:48So one of the really interesting things that I remember learning from a yogi who was a medical doctor is that when we compress blood flow through the testes, like if you have gently compressed blood flow that increases over time, you're going to get less blood flow to the testes. You may get some kind of reduction in testosterone production and semen production or whatever. So there may be some physiological things that people do when they're normally like try to be celibate that allow it to be healthy in a in a good way. So I think it kind of the key takeaway don't disagree with anything that Dr.

1:33:20Mollick said. I think you've got to remember that no fat is not a surefire solution to fix all your problems. And at the same time, some people have positive experiences. Also, Dr. Mollick has been emphasizing this point of it's not the same for everybody. And we know that there are a couple of things working with this community quite a bit. There are a couple of things that happen about self -control, challenging yourself, setting a goal, creating purpose in your life, changing what your sensory inputs are. So you're not thirsty all day long and thinking about being horny and all this kind of stuff.

1:33:52Sometimes you got to kind of cut it out of your life. And so it's almost like this this cold turkey kind of approach, which can sometimes work for nicotine, can sometimes work for things like sex. But I think like your mileage may vary and we don't really know exactly what's going on. Yeah, I think I'll add I think that the problem I have with it to some degrees and people are white knuckling it, right? They're really and they're getting peer pressured into it like you've got a stop, right? And so then they're they're they're really trying hard not to ejaculate. And so they're tensing up their pelvic floor muscles.

1:34:23They're developing problems because they're tensing up their pelvic floor. They're developing dysfunctions. They're getting pain with ejaculation. They're getting pain with directions or they get so much shame when they have a nocturnal emission, for example, it's not. Notational emission is a nighttime ejaculation. Exactly. So they're they're they're getting so shamed by the community because they've failed, which is completely out of their physiologic control. Like you're going to have a nocturnal emission if your body wants to have one. There's nothing you can do about it. So, you know, I think ultimately there is a lot of shame and peer pressure that can sometimes create harm in these situations.

1:34:54Now if you're using it in the way Dr. K described, like that's fine. If you're if you're deriving benefit from it, I have no problem. But I do take issue with the people who are harming themselves because they're getting a lot of pressure from this is from the group. If I can jump in for a second. So I want to emphasize this point too. So this is really weird. But people are white knuckling it. They're they may be making their addiction actually worse. So there's a really interesting principle in addiction where if I'm white knuckling something like so like I let's use the example of like opioid addiction, right?

1:35:23So when when I when I'm working with an opioid addict at the very beginning, what they have is like a psychological craving. Like I want to I want to have an opiate so that I feel better. I mentally I feel better. I feel euphoria. And then if I white knuckle it, what happens is things start to get worse. Then I start to go into withdrawal. And then my body is like now I'm going to opioid withdrawal. So instead of euphoria, now I start to feel pain all over my body. And as I feel pain all over my body, then finally what happens is like crack. And then I use opioids. And then something really interesting happens.

1:35:56The body learns what it what it has to do to you to make you use or opioids again. So when you white knuckle and actually crack at the end, what we find is that your the body jumps straight to level 10, right? So it's kind of like we see this also with like kids and devices. Mommy, Daddy, can I have an iPad? No. And then they're like, Mommy, Daddy, please no. And then they start crying. Then they start throwing a temperature, that temperature. If you give them the iPad when they throw a temperature, that encourages them to throw a temperature. And we see that internally, biologically, physiologically, where if you resist an addiction and then you cave at the end, the body is like, Hey, there's no point messing around with the early stages.

1:36:41Let's just go to hard withdrawal way faster. So I think it can be so harmful when people are white knuckling it. They don't realize that every time they fail, sometimes what they're actually doing is training their brain to punish them way harder so their brain can get the dopamine that it wants. You talk about pornography being a substitute for relationships in society. Okay. Have you spoken about that? I don't want to mischroach your opinion. I've got a quote here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But your experience has been that pornography usage is really just a powerful coping mechanism and it sort of scratches this evolutionary itch for relationships.

1:37:18Yeah. Is it therefore not a bad thing for people? I'm reflecting on that idea which we kind of have a lot of different sexion which is people really seem to hate dating apps and pornography. But they also seem to use them both. And I just as a podcast, we were really surprised the first time we had a dating app CEO on the show because I thought, oh great episode, we learned a lot of our business and how they bought the app. And then I looked at the comments section and this group of people had shown up with like pitch, like pitch forks. And they were expressing their desperation and they're feeling that these dating apps and pornography has very much ruined their lives.

1:37:58And so I just want to throw that out there because it's a reflection of the comments that I see. Yeah, you know, so I didn't say okay to try to check you out. I was just like, let's hear the rest. So yeah, I think what was once again, remember that every part of the brain, every neurotransmitter is involved in sexuality and relationships. So what's happening is when we, this is what we see is that when we use technology to activate the brain, there are parts of the brain that don't know the difference. The problem is that there are other parts of the brain that don't get activated. So this is going to get a little bit weird.

1:38:33But so if I think about like, you know, I'll give you all, let's just use the example of food. So when I feel hungry, I can eat something that's calorically dense and that will satisfy my hunger. But the calorically dense food may not have nutrition. It may not have micronutrients. It may not have fiber. So when I replace something nutritious with something that tricks my body into thinking, oh, like now we're fine, that can be very damaging. So one of the things that we see with pornography is that if we look at like, you know, being horny, why are human beings horny? It's because if we weren't horny, we would never make like that's like it's a evolutionary, it's not a bug, it's not a problem, it's a drive to help us succeed.

1:39:15So then we have this thing called post not clarity, right? Which is like when we have post not clarity, our horningness kind of goes down and then it changes the way that we see the world. So part of what we see a lot with like pornography is a substitute for relationships. As first of all, we evolved to have these parts of the brain that get activated, right? Relationships are a healthy thing for us. And now we figured out how to partially activate the brain through pornography. This is getting worse with things like only fans because now we develop a pair social relationship. There's usually not pair social relationships with like, you know, adult film actresses or maybe there are, but now we have interaction.

1:39:51I've seen more marriages ruined through only fans than I have through pornography. And I've seen a big spike in this recently because now it's not just a physical thing. There's enough insecurity and physicality and problems in the bedroom. Now there's an emotional relationship. If pornography online didn't exist, would we have better romantic relationships in real life? You've got an opinion, haven't you? Yeah, we don't know short, short answers. We don't know. But even shorter answer is, yeah, things are worse with pornography. And here's what I look at, right? So like if we don't have RCTs, what else can we look at?

1:40:26What's RCTs? Randomize control trials. You know, what we look at is global trends. So what are we seeing? What's the global trend in pornography and what's the global trend in relationships? Now this isn't causality. There could be all there's all kinds of, I think one thing that I've really appreciated is, you know, my co -gasts have clearly showed how nuanced and multifactorial this issue is. But generally speaking, people are watching way more porn. And relationships are getting worse. We have declining birth rates. People are getting married later. You know, we're seeing a kind of global, like, zeitgeist problem between men and women.

1:41:06And pornography is like correlated with those two things. So in my mind, if I say, if I have to put an answer, if we removed all pornography from the world, would things get better? I would say, yes, but that's because the way pornography is right now, and I think is, let me finish, I think I'm going to you up. So I think it's because in the reason removing it would be better is because it has gotten more toxic, right? So as pornography becomes more harmful, as it morphs and transforms into something that is more damaging, removing it should make things better. Which is inevitable because of how the brain works.

1:41:50You said we get increasingly dissensitized. So we want more extreme. So if you start here, you're eventually going to end up here regardless. I would say for who would it be better or worse? Because for me and my taste, it would probably be worse. I think that people who are searching ideas, desires, fantasies, scripts outside the kind of heteronormative male dominant pornography that's out there, they have really had a benefit of what has happened during the last years on the internet. Today they have access to different role models. They have access to different stories. They have access to representation.

1:42:38They have access to sex education that is not heteronormative and in a heteronormative script, when it comes to sexual debut, etc. People always talk about that is through penetrative sex. But it's not necessarily true, is it? What did we do before porn? Were we struggling in a bedroom before pornography existed? I think people were more open about sexuality. The way the frigidness around sexuality has a modern concept. In ancient civilizations, you were watching people have sex. It was in life. But it wasn't easily accessible in 15 seconds in extreme. So we're saying we should come off. We should.

1:43:31We have to mature. I think we are in a maturing process that porn online this way is still pretty new. We haven't talked about it much in general society. I think that this conversation that you are having now that you invited us to have a nuanced conversation, taking lots of time to talk about different aspects, that is exactly what we need. I agree. I would just say just back to your point, I think yes, we see the rise of all these things concurrently. But if we got rid of porn, would there be something else that people would be turning to? It's chicken or the egg. It's probably not the cause.

1:44:12It's multifactorial. And so would people then turn to something else? Would it be only fans that are at a point? Only fans can be a variety of different things. But it's now a live person that's communicating with someone else. Are there going to be AI robots that have sex with you? Are we going to turn to something else? Gaming addiction or some other type of addiction gambling or recreational drugs or alcohol? So it's really you're saying it's more of just a facetum of a set of challenges in society that people are using it for the emotional regulation that you described. There's a little of both.

1:44:45It's easily accessible. It's free. Your time is time, but it is not costing you money. So that is part of the issue. But I'm saying I don't think there is a bigger problem. And that people are using as a scapegoat to avoid this problem. Just to kind of counterpoint to that, I don't think you'll disagree with what I'm about to say. So the other thing that we know from addictions is that people have drugs of choice. Right? So to say that it would be completely replaced, I would disagree with because I think that the way that pornography affects your brain is unique compared to video games. And at the same time, we also see a lot of stuff to support.

1:45:26I agree with Doc Amalic. We're seeing a rise in video game addiction. We're seeing a rise in social media addiction. We're seeing a rise in pornography addiction. And depending on your individual makeup, you may be vulnerable to pornography versus social media. So when you have, when you need that parasocial relationship, without the sexual component, maybe you get addicted to social media. When you have that sexual component, maybe you get addicted to pornography. And so I think it is, I do think it's like a pretty unique thing. So if we just look at the physiology of sexuality and relationships, that's a pretty like, it's a dangerous, dangerous thing to hijack because it's so like fundamental to like life and mating.

1:46:13So I think it's somewhat specific. I don't think it, I think if we removed it, it would have some effect. But I think what I'm hearing from my co -gasts is that, you know, I think this is true of all technology. It's not that, oh, we should ban it. That's why I'm kind of reluctant when you ask that question. And I'm happy to say, sure, on balance, I'll say, yes. But I think the key thing to understand is that we are developing things as the human race without realizing what we're building. We are developing. So the problem with pornography is almost like an issue of like, you know, when you introduce an invasive species to a new environment, there are no checks and balances.

1:46:49So I think like, there are parts of Australia, for example, where like they introduced rabbits and rabbits that like just taken over the whole continent. And so I think what's happened with pornography is we started letting people, arguably the wrong people, start building all of this pornography. It's ripped through our society. It's changed the way that now 40 something percent of women are coerced into asphyxiation in college, like what the fuck, right? Like this is insane. Like how did we get here? But it's only just the beginning. You mentioned that of virtual reality AI, these new technologies.

1:47:23One of the great things about these new technologies, specifically AI in large language models is they can have a conversation with you. And this is something in technology that we couldn't really do before in such a remarkably personalized way. So you kind of combine these technologies, you go, okay, I'll add in virtual reality, robotics is on the rise as well. We now have these large language models that can communicate with you in whatever way they need to to make you feel whatever you need to feel. And I look at that and go, the future's not bright as it relates to sex, sex relationships and pornography.

1:47:56People, you know, they did a study in 2020 with virtual reality. And they found the researchers found in that study that virtual reality porn made people feel more desired, more flirted with, and more connected to the actress. So the more immersive we make pornography, which is the direction of traveling the world generally, the more it's going to be addictive, the more it's going to be feel like a better substitute than having a real relationship with a real person. Yeah, I agree. I think it's it's unless we develop some checks and balances and we prioritize relationships with other human beings as a society where we're going to be in trouble.

1:48:33So what do we do there? Do we ban it? Do we ban virtual AI porn? Because there's already websites, now there was three websites that I found that allowed you to make your own partner. And they're calling this DIGI sexuals where you can pick their personality, you can pick their physical preferences, you can pick the sexual fantasy that they perform and that you want to see them perform. And and and these are becoming increasingly popular. And the great thing about these according to the websites that make these sexual characters that you can make yourself, is it remembers all of your previous conversations.

1:49:10So quote, it can improve communication and cater to what your desire is. So it can really speak to what you want. But it can't touch you. It can't target you, it can't kiss you. But the robots can. Those big sexual robots can. So like I know this is going to sound crazy. But like, you know, I think we look at the end of the human race and we look at things like climate change and nuclear war and maybe like some super bug that is resistant to all of our antibiotics. Like there's a tiny, tiny chance that what's going to end the human race is something like this. And I know that's like kind of a bold statement to make, but like let me just share with you all what I'm afraid of.

1:49:47So what's going on is you're right. It's becoming more immersive. And the whole problem with like technology and even the virtual world, what we see in video games is that the immersive world is one that we prefer to the real world. Right. So if you kind of think about let's say only fans versus a real relationship, only fans like this person is financially invested to not piss me off. Whereas I know this is very frustrating for a lot of dudes out there turns out if you're in a real relationship with a woman, there's a human being who has thoughts and feelings and desires of her own. I know it's tough.

1:50:19Right. And so like what happens is we in only fans like they're they're invested in making you happy. And now what we're happening is AI girlfriends. That's just the start of it, man. Like right now they they can try to fulfill your desire. Someone's going to figure out that a random reinforcement schedule is better. So if you want to create the most addictive virtual girlfriend, she's actually not going to give you what you want. Some of the time she's going to piss you off. She's going to throw a temper tantrum that is going to trick your brain into thinking this is a real relationship. Which comes from gambling psychology, right?

1:50:51Gambling psychology, right? And so now what I'm going to do is get more addicted to technology. And this is why video games are addictive. There's a really fascinating study where people were like the reason video games are addictive is because of a denial of a reward. So if you look at Fortnite, Fortnite is a game that has 100 players in arena. There's one winner, which means you lose 99 % of the time. But oh boy, if you're the winner that one time, the dopamine surge that you get is astronomical. When we deny human beings rewards and then we give it to them, they're hooked. This is gambling.

1:51:23This is also why we respect people sitting at this table because we've all worked hard. What we did is not easy to do. That's why everyone values it. Someone's going to figure this out with AI girlfriends. And then this is the thing they can't hug us, but they can. So this is happening. So this technology was actually developed in the early 2000s for medical reasons. So when we were seeing clinics in remote parts of the world that would have these things called haptic feedback gloves. So this is back when if you look at like a doctor who was this is specifically a technology developed around detecting breast cancer.

1:51:57So what happens is I put on a glove, I'm a doctor and someone else puts on a glove somewhere else in the world and then they do a breast exam. So they feel the breast, okay? And then based on the lumps that you feel, whatever their glove feels, I'm wearing a glove that makes me feel the same things. So we have some of these sexually assistive devices like, you know, for both men and women now. When we combine haptic feedback and they start throwing temper tantrums, like I really think it could be like there's a tiny chance it's just the end of the human race. Because we're not like why bother with another human?

1:52:30When I can get touch and I can get activated. And you can get irritated every so often. Every so often. Which makes it so much sweeter, right? Make -up sex is great. The end of the human race. Scary. I don't want to go with her. I think we have to actively work at it, right? Like we have to teach our children that like relationships are hard and worth it. And, you know, it's hard though. It's really hard. But I think, yeah, I think it's going to be a challenge and we have to have some checks and balances and we on our own have to work in our own little microcosm to try to continually have the younger generation see the value of relationships and procreation and all those things because that's, you know, on the decline.

1:53:16Don't people in life typically just go for the path of least resistance when left to their own devices? Now, I was thinking as you're speaking about when I was in primary school, they came in and taught me about your five a day. So like you meant to have like five fruit and vegetables a day or whatever. But then if they tell you that information, but then they put you in a food environment where every shop is selling me candy and, you know, processed foods because it's more nutritious. My brain spikes more. There's no, it doesn't matter if what you taught me. It doesn't matter if I know five fruit and vegetable, but we still have like this obesity crisis.

1:53:47And I think if you went up to the average American and said, what food is healthy? I think a good proportion of them would be able to say what's healthy and what's not. But then if you ask them what they consume, it's a very different answer irrespective of pricing because your brain, especially in a more stressed world than ever before, is really driving driving you. So I'm picking up the soda. I'm picking up. And I think about the same in pornography, we can know something is not good for us. But if it's readily available and it's low friction to access it, the incentives are going to win out over the long term.

1:54:16And I think about this in company culture. I say to people all the time, I say, you know, as a CEO, you can stand there and tell your group of people how you want the team to behave. But it's almost, it's really naive to assume over any long, long period of time that people will act outside of their incentives. So you can say, I want you guys to all to innovate. But if your job description is literally rewarding you to do your current job and your bonuses are rewarding you to do your current job, you're going to do your current job regardless of what the CEO is barking at you. I think about the same in porn.

1:54:44Like we can't just, we can't just rely on telling people that it's bad. People do, people do do things for delayed gratification, right? We went to medical school. There is a lot of delayed gratification in medical school. You're a CEO, you're a producer. Like these are not easy things to start, right? And you do it because you know there's potential reward at the end of it. So there is, you know, human psychology. And I'm sure Dr. K can talk more about that like where you can foster this appreciation for delayed gratification. And also we're good food. You know, when you eat well, when you eat green, etc.

1:55:17You feel much better and that gives you energy and then you can want to keep going. The stats, the beastie stats are just horrifying. In the US in particular, it's a country where, you know, education, education, education. We tried that. In school, I was told that vegetables are good and this is good. But then a beastie stats since the time I was in school have just gone in one direction still. But maybe it's about the practice we have to learn, you know, how to get into the right practice of things. And this is a question really about, is it the individual that has to find this discipline or this sort of self -control or at social level?

1:55:54Do we need to put things in place to make the environment easier to operate in? So a couple of thoughts. The first, so the first is I think the answer to that question, which we learn in medical school is there's never an ear or the answer is always both. It's always multifactorial. So I think I'm with you that so like I, when I think about like, you know, what, what is my life's work? It's, I work on the individual level. So when you ask me should we ban something, it's like, I don't know. Because my thought is that we got to save a couple people. The good news about the human race dying out is that, you know, if a couple people continue to have sex with each other, then all the people who are vulnerable to AI relationships will actually not procreate and humanity will survive.

1:56:34Right? So maybe we're okay. But I think that the other thing you have to keep in mind. So this is maybe a little bit more of a spiritual bent. So I'm with you that there's an obesity crisis. I'm with you that human beings. It's kind of like we treat human beings like the lowest common denominator, right? We're like, oh, human beings. If we give them broccoli and cookies, like they're going to eat cookies. But I think that there are two things. So the first thing is that like Dr. Malik said, you know, I think even if we look at this podcast, like the people who are watching this are not interested in eating cookies.

1:57:06And there is an appetite. Why have podcasts exploded? Because people tried to educate kids in school. And what we have organically, evolutionary lead discovered is there is a different way to communicate information that creates behavioral change. That's the first thing. So we're seeing the counterbalancing force of obesity. Like the whole world became obese because we had people making colorically dense food without an awareness of it. But I also see the highest amount of like whole grain advertisement that I've ever seen before. Now we know it's a problem. And now humanity is fighting back. And the other thing.

1:57:45So this is what I think really separates human beings from animals. And maybe this is an argument that a more competent biologist will will say I'm wrong here. This is more of a spiritual perspective. But I think human beings are the only species on the planet that may be able to run against our programming. And you can argue that this is even a deeper level of programming. But like the whole point to being human, the cool thing about being human is my brain can drive me, like you said, in one direction. But I can say, hey, even though my brain is driving me in this direction, I don't want to go in that direction.

1:58:19Human beings are, it's really interesting, right? Because we're the ones that like, so I remember, you know, watching this TikTok or something about a vegan dog. And the someone was like, oh, yeah, we know my dog is vegan. They don't even like food. Let's do an experiment. There's one piece of meat and one piece of some weird corn broccoli chowder, right? Dogs sniffs both. It's never had meat for the last two years and eats the meat. So if we look at animals like animals, it's not clear to me that animals are able to regulate their impulses in the way that human beings do. Why have human beings dominated the planet?

1:58:52It's because when we feel like having a cookie, we have broccoli. When we feel like yelling at someone, we restrain ourselves. And there may be some deeper biology, evolutionary kind of thing going on there. But I'd ask each and every one of you to look at your experience for a second. Forget about biology. When you have an impulse, does that impulse control you or can you fight back? I fight. Right? We all fight. That's the human experience. The human experience is fighting against our impulses every fucking day. And then we try to learn how can I get better at this? Because what my tongue wants, I'm talking about calories, not sex for a second.

1:59:29What my tongue wants is not, there's a part of me that says this is not good for me in the long run. This is delayed gratification. How many of our impulses do you actually think we're winning the fight against? Because I would argue that we're losing pretty much all of the fights against our impulses. In fact, the fact that we're all sat here is probably us following our impulses. The rise in social media usage is us being a slave to our impulses. The rise in obesity globally is us failing, losing the fight to our impulses. The rise in pornography is us losing our fight to our impulses. The rise in gaming, gambling, alcohol, whatever is us losing our fight with our impulses.

2:00:07Workaholic people. This is going to sound wild. I think we're getting better at it. So I know you're saying we're losing the war, right? The human being's self -control is increasing. In the reason why we're losing the war right now, but the enemy is coming up with better and better weapons. Technology is getting sophisticated. Pornography is getting sophisticated. Social media is getting sophisticated. And yet the human race in some ways we're collapsing, but we're also like operating in some ways at the best level that we ever have. So we're getting outgunned, but I actually think human beings on the whole, what I see in the community, what's the top search?

2:00:45How do I quit pornography? So there's something happening on a humanity level where we're like as human beings, we're like we got to start fighting back. This podcast is a consequence of that. This is human beings fighting back. So are we losing the war? Yeah, but I think we've been like, we got caught by surprise. We got caught with our pants down, right? Which may be we're in knowledge, but you know, so like I'm with you that there's a lot of reasons to be scared, and also like the reason that people pay attention to me and Dr. Malik and Erica is because we're fighting back, right? That's why we're here.

2:01:20The steam and this is brilliant, man, because here you are. And what are you? Whatever the questions you're asking us, we're all screwed. We're doomed. Isn't we all screwed? Right? So you have become so sophisticated that everyone who's listening to us, you're pulling out the strongest messages of hope that the three of us can muster. You're figuring out how to give people hope because you keep on asking these pessimistic, pessimistic, pessimistic questions. So this is what it takes, man, it takes like people who are like figuring out how this works. Maybe you're controlling their impulses. Who knows?

2:01:50No, no, I have to represent whatever the opposite of whatever you say is. If you say that, also, right? Yeah, right? So that's beautiful. So think about it. When you were at school, did anyone ever tell you there's a conflict between broccoli and cookies? No, they said eat broccoli. So we figured out as a human race that we need to represent both sides of the conflict to get the best out of a human being. That's a critical principle for addiction treatment too. You can't tell them it's good. You have to weigh the good and the bad. Is there any such thing as too much porn, Dr. Serena? So I think it's really about how you feel about it.

2:02:23So in all the data about problematic porn use, it's like people who feel bad about it. They're like, oh, I really don't, I think I use too much. Then you probably use too much, right? But if you use it and you don't feel bad about it and you're still able to go to work and you're still able to maintain your relationships and have sex with your partner or your partners or whatever, then it's not a problem, right? So I think it's really, it's, it comes down to how you feel about it and usually you're right about it. Usually if you feel like something's wrong and you're using too much, then probably abstaining or trying a different alternative may be beneficial.

2:02:54So just to conclude then, if I made you Prime Minister, President of the United Kingdom, the world, let's say, and you had to put legislation in place to make our relationship with pornography healthier or to make a net more positive force for society or impact on society, what exactly would you do? Dr. Serena. This is a tough question. So I think I would have some mandatory self -analysis of your porn use that everyone has to take every so often so that people can actually have to look at it with an objective, like not watching porn, but seeing how many hours do you use it and how often you're using it and again, frequency is not always related to problem, but it is one marker that we can measure.

2:03:43And then, you know, maybe again have a warning to them that this seems like a lot of use, are you still, and that if they've had a certain marker of use, maybe are you finding that you're having difficulties in relationships and whatever, and that would hopefully alert some red flags to people who may need some assistance, and hopefully we'd have some sort of intervention for them. What about you, don't you? Honestly, what I do is resign, like the first thing I would do. But if you're asking for like a single policy change, I can get behind one thing. So I think the biggest thing that we need right now from a policy level is social and emotional skills training for all children.

2:04:20I think we need to re -evaluate what we teach in schools and what what people actually need to learn today. So school, when knowledge and information was not easily accessible, school was about learning information. But I don't need to learn the capital of any state or country now because I can look it up. So I think what we really need is social and emotional skills training. There are also studies that show that this is very, very helpful for people. So how do you regulate your emotions? How do you form connections with other people? These are the two biggest things that we need. Because our emotions, when they get out of whack, they're the birth of all addiction.

2:04:56And media training. So young people can understand what they actually are watching and that media is sending out messages to the world and that we are decoding those messages. I think that is absolutely necessary. But what I would do, I think porn should be behind a payment barrier. For me, that's I believe that that's the way it should be. And better sexual education. Better sexual education. I would add that to the mandate. Yeah, absolutely. What's the most important thing that we should have talked about, but we didn't talk about as it relates to the work that you do and what you've seen as it relates to sexual health, relationships, love and dating.

2:05:35I think what we didn't spend enough time on is how pornography changes our body images. So I think there's a significant number of people, men interested in increasing penal length, women interested in maybe labia plastic or looking a certain way that they're often seeing on pornography. And I think that creates a lot of dissatisfaction, a lot of shame, a lot of small penis anxieties are real thing. And it is very detrimental. People are so so focused on the size of their penis that they are now thinking about or ruminating about it, potentially doing harm to themselves to try to increase penal length.

2:06:19And so I think that this is something we didn't talk about, but that is another potential harm of seeing people who have chosen to be pornography actors who have on the high set of deviations of size that's not normal, right? And so they're not seeing normal anatomy. And I think that's that's potentially harmful. I agree partly, but then also I hear many people when they're talking about porn, they're saying porn, creates unexpected kind of ideas of your bodies and etc. But I'm a bit suspicious about this because honestly, look at fashion. What is fashion doing? I think it's worse. I really think it's worse many times.

2:06:58I'm in porn. There are so many different people today, different body types, different ages, different, you know, different everything that are being represented. So I think that that statement might be, you know, from 10 years ago or something. Where does that statement come from? Just I mean, we know that there is small opinions that we know that people are shooting something. My highest viewed video is about increasing penal length. There's over 30 million views. So it is clearly something that people are searching. Now, is it from pornography 100 %? No, not necessarily, but that's where they're seeing these very large organs is typically on pornography.

2:07:37Yes, you can see a whole host of a variety of different types of people, but I think they're seeing it there and feeling in that way. But probably when it comes to men, there are less variety in porn than when it comes to women. Erica, do you use large penises in your work? I don't know how to say that. Is part of your sort of do you choose them by the size? No, I do not. I look for I look for people's personality. That's what I'm after. I'm looking for people who who feel like real people. I'm beauty and energy and passion and chemistry. These are things. But does the penis size matter? No, to me, it doesn't matter.

2:08:21But then if we're going to be 100 % honest, it's true that many of the performers have slightly bigger penises than what is considered average. What's the average penis length? It's about 5 .1 to 5 .5 inches erect. Is there a gap in the perception that demand think the average penis length is bigger? Yeah, actually both genders do. When you look at studies where people look at a penis and estimate the size, both genders tend to overestimate average penile length. But they also are not really great at looking at a penis and telling the size. Sometimes they'll see a 5 .5 inch penis and they get six inches up to an inch in variability, basically, when you get on the above average sizes.

2:09:07There is obviously perception issues. But ultimately, I think the people who tend to want to be, correct me from wrong, who want to be performers who are male will generally have something they want to show off and they will think they have a larger penis. What about the length of sex, though? Is there disparities between how long we think sex should be and how often we should think we should be having it, which causes a lot of dissatisfaction Yeah, absolutely. So the average time to ejaculation for a man is about five to six minutes. The average time to orgasm for a woman during partner dinner course is about 14 minutes.

2:09:44So there's definitely a disparity there that needs to be addressed if you have average duration in your relationship, then the female partner needs to be prioritized.

2:09:59So she has a great relationship and have a great experience with that orgasm. But if you want both people to climax, you need to stimulate the female partner a little longer. You're going to say something that I don't feel like. Yes, I think. This is what she was saying. That's not the priority. She looked at Eric.

2:10:17I'm sorry, like my brain grew up on the internet and there's like a sub -track that's running this whole time. But so I think what I teach my patients is almost identical. So if you look at the average sexual intercourse, like people don't realize it's three to seven minutes. Is it what's really even really fascinating is that speaking of misperceptions, about 50 % of women start don't want sex longer than 15 minutes. So I didn't know what the average time to female and male orgasm was, but I know what people prefer. And half of women, like they don't want, you know, if you watch like a two film or something, like sure, sometimes there's shorts and stuff, but there's also like, you know, a porno is like 45 minutes of all kinds of stuff.

2:11:00Like it's like three to seven minutes and women start complaining after 50 seconds. So I see a lot of this, you know, this like body dysmorphio almost. It's like getting to that level in both men and women unrealistic expectations about body unrealistic expectations about performance. That creates shame. Once I feel shame, then I want to watch pornography. Then, you know, I want to watch Dr. Malyx video that has 30 million views or get pills to increase 5P in a size on the advertisers. You know, so I think that there's just a lot of bad information out there. So does this mean that we need to make pornography that is reflective of reality?

2:11:35IE make it three to five minutes long for men and 14 minutes for women, but also does it mean that we need to introduce pornography that's reflective of all body images because they're going to go back to this like broccoli cookie analogy. So I don't think it has to be pornography. So I had an interesting experience. So like I was in Europe and I went to a co -ed sauna, right? So like we don't have that here in the United States. And the co -ed sauna was like mostly like older people. So you see like, you know, the majority of people there were like 60 plus. So you see like, you know, 100 naked bodies of like old men and women.

2:12:09And it really puts things in perspective. I think part of the problem is with things like fashion and things like pornography, we don't, you know, we just don't see what a normal naked body looks like. So what's the only we see two kinds of naked bodies? We see your own. And then we see, you know, highly produced or highly selected. We don't see normal naked. But if I made a porn film that had reality in it, would anybody buy it? Well, I think if you made a porn film, that would sell out. Are you talking about it? No, but it's a funny. But the answer here is, yes, I made a film with a couple who are 70 plus.

2:12:49And it's very successful people. There's a very popular older female, I don't know her, but I've seen her on social media who's a porn actress. And she's, you know, she's a normal, a bit different. There's quite many actually. But why don't the industry make videos that have people with normal bodies and normal type penises? But those videos aren't the popular ones, according to the data. Not necessarily. If you go on any streaming website and you click the popular button, what you'll see is idyllic bodies. Now, if people were searching out the pornography you're saying, those would be the most popular because the companies would make more money from them.

2:13:24I mean, there's so much content. I think that that really lots of it is is popular. I mean, there's, you know, one of the things that they are doing on this site on this site is that they are categorizing people by their primarily features kind of. So you can look for porn with bigger bodies, for example. And it's quite the popular category actually, but you can also look for tiny teens. You can look for milves. You can look for for cool girls. You, I mean, people, many people, they have kind of gotten away from what is kind of desire and connecting people and has gotten into this way of kind of having their favorite kind of people, their favorite kind of porn.

2:14:15Would you, would you business be more or less successful if the bodies were reflective of society and the penises were reflective of society? Would your business be more or less successful? In my case, I don't, I don't think so. I think we already show a great diversity of people. Is it reflective of society? 100 % not, but who is? Is Netflix reflective of society? Is Vogue magazine reflective of society, etc? I mean, I think that we do tend to look for beauty somehow, but beauty doesn't mean stereotype, modern -like people. Yeah, just to chime in. So I think I challenge your questions just a little bit because I think when you say like, I'm, I get what you're saying, but I think we can also see the amateur porn is on the rise.

2:15:01Yes. And if we look at when you say only fans made 6 .6 billion, I think a big appeal in only fans is that you have much more male -mo looking people. And so when we look at the success of a business or not, I think there's also like a varied market. So people are looking for different things. And I think we're seeing that they're like, as porn becomes highly overly produced and stuff, there's kind of this like almost paradoxical upswing in amateur content in things like only fans where you have someone who really is closer to the girl next door when we're talking about a heteronormative sort of situation.

2:15:39And I think we can also see that in, we see that trend all over the place, right? So as we get short form content, we're also seeing an explosion in podcasts. So I think there's a variable consumer there. I was looking as you were speaking at the top 10 earners on only fans. And I have to say none of them look like they reflect the average person. Yeah. So the top 10 earners won't. Top 20? No, no, no, you can't look at the top. You have to look at what percentage of the 6 billion comes from the top 10 earners and what percentage comes from other people. Right. So so is only fans of the kind of thing where it's like, you know, the majority of the revenues earned by the top 10 earners or is it this kind of thing where the top 10 earners get maybe 50 percent, but then 50 percent is like a pretty wide variety.

2:16:25That's the statistic you need to look at. I can tell you that what we do see is that people search a lot on our sites for real sites. It's a concept that people are really looking for. I also looked at porn. How this is the first time I've gone on porn hub at work just to see again that the most viewed porn stars on porn hub and it's the same reflection. None of them look like the average person. You know, I'm looking at the heterosexuals, I'm looking at women and men and they all look like mannequins. All 30 of them. Well, I think you and your team need to do more research. You can't accept the answer.

2:17:06It's values. Okay, closing statements, closing thoughts. We've talked about a lot today. So I want to go clockwise starting with Dr. Reena Malik. What are your closing thoughts and statements to the wide variety of people that would have clicked on this video for the wide variety of reasons, whether they're parents, whether they're the young men, that struggle that you often spend your time dealing with Dr. K. What are your closing thoughts for them? But also we have a lot of people that are in government that listen and we only found that out because sometimes they reach out to us. Doctors reach out to us.

2:17:34People in parliament, in Congress, etc., reach out to us. What's your statement be to all of those people? My closing thoughts are invest in education about your body and about sex. So whether that means learning what your anatomy is and learning what real sex is. And I think that is of paramount importance to having a successful relationship with yourself and your partners that you can enjoy sex and use pornography for curiosity and not for boredom. Yeah, I think remember that your body is learning all the time and that we think about pornography and its negative effect, which it can have a negative effect.

2:18:10So I'd start with really understanding what pornography is doing for you, what's the root of your relationship with it. And also recognize that, I mean, I really do think after this conversation that pornography can be a force for good. And many of the reasons that you may be watching it, if you transition to a erotic film, if you use it in a sexual relationship, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's the way that you relate to it. And you know, really think about how you can utilize it in a healthier way. And if you are a consumer, think about what you are watching. See, if there's an about page, can learn anything about that company, about these directors, producers, performers, can you watch them behind the scene footage, something that makes you feel that you align with the values of the people who are creating it.

2:19:03Because not all porn is monolithic. There's many different kinds out there. And there's many great people working in this industry to spread the sex positivity and better acceptance of our desires, fantasies, sexual lives, who are interested in the erotic aspects of sexuality. I also think it's worth saying. We've talked widely about the subject of pornography. But one of the things that I really did come to believe, and I saw when there was a call to ban only fans was that only fans as a website and as a platform, is allowing porn stars and, you know, adult actresses and actors to have a safer way to make their money into do their business.

2:19:58And previously what you'd seen is there was much of the escorting industry, which was much more of a dangerous industry, have now moved over towards these platforms, which do provide greater safety for a behavior that is going to happen irrespective of whether there's a ban in place or not. We have a closing tradition on this podcast, as you all know. You might not know this. Where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest. And because the last guest was you, I'm not going to skip past it. And I opened up the book to a question that's sort landed before that. So I'm going to ask you all this question individually.

2:20:31And I'd love to hear your answers. What can you do to improve humanity and the life of all the people that are listening? I think continue educating people on and empowering people to know what their bodies are doing and how they can relate to the opposite sex if they're heterosexual in order to have a satisfying sex life. It's not just an extracurricular activity. It's something that we do that's a part of our innate biology and it's important and valuable. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm showing up tomorrow is like the most important thing. Like not here, but like to just, you know, if we think about improving humanity, like human, like, you know, decisions are made by those who show up.

2:21:16So I think the most important thing that I can do is just showing up and continuing to do what I think is best. The most important thing that all of us can do is just continue showing up. The majority of the people that I work with in my community, the biggest problem I have is sometimes not showing up. I would say connect with other people on a deep level. There to have difficult conversations. There to be wrong because I also think that we live now in a society where so many people are so afraid of being wrong, of saying something wrong, of that sometimes they don't even dare to connect on a deeper level with other people.

2:22:00You'll point Ericka, your answer about being okay to be wrong. I think is really, really important to a lot of the conversations we've had today because most of the time people don't want to have these conversations because they're sort of ideologically attached to a certain position. Typically the position that's associated with whatever their job is or their incentive structure. I think sometimes it's important to have these open nuanced discussions like we've had today because we can all start to learn a little bit about other people's worlds and bring down some of those sort of ideological walls that keep us imprisoned.

2:22:31All progress, I think, is happens when you have this conflict of ideas. But with the purpose not of proving someone is wrong or you're more intelligent or whatever, but through the purpose and the lens of progress. And that's why this conversation has been so enlightening to me because I get to see a bunch of different worlds from a bunch of different perspectives and I can use that to form my own opinion on the subject of pornography. And I will start by saying that my opinion of pornography has actually changed in this conversation because there was clearly parts of my understanding of pornography that were in the dark.

2:23:06And those lights have been turned on. So I have a more contextual picture of the industry. Thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. It's as I said a second ago it's super inspiring and super enlightening for me to get all of these perspectives and to use all of this new information to reform my own opinion on the subject matter in a much more naive sort of biased way. So I really, really appreciate the time that you've all given us today. And on behalf of all my audience as well, thank you so much. Appreciate all of you. Thank you. Thanks, Lavin.

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