13 Minutes Presents: Artemis II: What’s next for Nasa's Artemis mission?

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1:33Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. I'm space scientist Maggie Adairing and this is 13 Minutes Presents Artemis II. The learnings. I'm astronaut Tim Peake. Before launch and during the 10-day mission, we brought you daily updates on Artemis II's journey to the moon and back. Listen wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Thank you. This was an unbelievable adventure and it was made possible by this crew and the support of each other throughout the whole thing. I've said it so many times, we are bonded forever. I mean, that's the closest four humans can be and not be a family. Everything we did up there was a four-person activity.

2:16Minimum. Everything. How we ate, slept. flew the vehicle and some of it was in on purpose a lot of it we realized real time when jeremy exercised we were all exercised we had a smoke detector go off on the next to last day i mean you want to get somebody's attention really quick make make the fire alarm go off in your spacecraft when you're still about 80 000 miles from home i just want to say 100 point blank. That was a wonderful toilet. The toilet worked great where we had an issue. And it was, it was an issue for sure is that our primary vent line, which takes, you know, when you go to the bathroom at the end of doing that, you flush the toilet, the toilet flushed just fine.

2:59But then when the liquid went out the bottom of the toilet, it got clogged up in our vent line. First of all, all of the things that was a very intense 13 minutes and 36 seconds. I would tell you, I've never been base jumping. I've never been skydiving, but if you You dove off a skyscraper backwards. That's what it felt like for five seconds. Every time I've been waking up or in the first few days, I thought I was floating. I truly thought I was floating and I had to convince myself I wasn't. That's three of the Artemis crew there, speaking to the world just a few days after our last episode. Safely back on ground at Houston.

3:37And as ever, we are joined by space journalist Kristen Fisher. Hi, Kristen. Hi, Tim. Hi, Maggie. It's great to see you both again. And I got to say, my favorite thing that I've done since I last spoke with both of you, at 10 p.m. the night before, I decided to fly down to Texas to the Johnson Space Center for the crew's first news conference since Splashdown. Literally booked the flight at 10 and was on a 6 a.m. flight. And I'm so glad I did because I was able to ask the crew a question that has just been burning in my mind throughout the mission. Okay, we'll take two more here in the room and then head to our phone bridge.

4:16Kristen, go ahead. Hi, Kristen Fisher. Welcome home. It's been such a joy watching how much this mission has gotten people so excited about space. My question is a little bit deep, so bear with me. When Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell was returning from the moon, he had an experience so profound that when he returned to Earth, he devoted the rest of his life to studying the nature of human consciousness. And it's a theme that all four of you touched on to varying degrees at some point during the mission. And so my question is, now that you've been back on Earth for just a few days and had a little bit of time to sit with it, do any of you feel as though you had an experience similar to what Mitchell described, this sense of universal connectedness?

5:06And did you experience somehow a shift in consciousness somehow? Thanks. Yes. Chris, it's a great question. And I'll just, the only thing I can do is just share one quick story when I got back on the ship. I'm not a, I'm not really a religious person, but there was just no other avenue for me to explain anything or to experience anything. So I asked for the chaplain on the Navy ship to just come visit us for a minute. And when that man walked in, I'd never met him before in my life, but I saw the cross on his collar and I just, I broke down in tears. Like, it's very hard to fully grasp what we just went through.

5:46And in these short, you just said it's been a week since we've been back, but it's been a week of medical testing, physical testing, doctors, science objectives. Like, we have not had that decompression. We have not had that reflection time. So I'm basing this on what we saw. And when the sun eclipsed behind the moon, I think all four of us, I turned to Victor, and I said, I don't think humanity has evolved to the point of being able to comprehend what we're looking at right now because it was otherworldly and it was amazing. um the only thing i would add is that beautiful thank first of all thank you for sharing that that was a really special moment i was in the bed right across when the chaplain came in and um the only thing i would add is i am a religious person but everything else is the same um it it was there is something in there and as we start to process i'll have to tell you next week but i haven't had a chance to really unpack it all yet So you heard Reid Weissman and Victor Glover answer my question.

6:44I feel like Jeremy Hansen was about to answer it too, but then we quickly moved on to the next question. So our very special guest for this episode is Canadian astronaut Jeremy Hansen, one of the mission specialists on this mission. So Tim Magge, I'm hoping I can maybe sneak this question into him. I can't wait to hear his answer. And something I thought was really amazing about that press conference is there were quite a few things throughout the mission that were scripted. And you knew that, oh, that's fine, because it's a big moment for NASA. So the words that were spoken, you know, before launch, the words that were spoken at various points in the mission.

7:20But during that press conference, what came across was just the crews. It was a very human response. They were, you know, still trying to process what they had been through, what they had seen. It was obviously a very emotional experience for most of them. And that really was quite surprising to see that kind of raw level of emotion that they were expressing in their answers. But I think that's what made the whole mission so successful. As you say, there's a scripted bit, but you could see them as humans, humans on an amazing adventure. And it enabled us emotionally to go with them. You know, I was talking to my dad, Dr.

7:58Bill Fisher, who flew on the space shuttle STS-51I back in 1985. I was talking to him about his press conference, this mission, and how the humanness, the feelings and the emotions almost eclipsed the technical achievements, which, of course, were so immense. And my dad said, oh, gosh, all this talk of feelings and emotions. He was like, Kristen, that's the wrong stuff. He just couldn't believe that they were talking about mental health and that they needed time to process. His mind just couldn't compute this. And I was like, Dad, no, this is that was the wrong stuff back then when you were flying, perhaps.

8:39But this is the right stuff now in the Artemis generation. But it shows how we've evolved and how, yes, talking about this stuff just makes more people connect to it, really. And perhaps that's a testament to the fact that the technical stuff just works so well as well. You know, we were able to focus on the human element. And everything about this mission was just, yes, they ran into some issues, not with the toilet, as Reid said, but with the valve for all of their, you know, urine to exit the spacecraft freezing. But yes, they ran into some hiccups as we knew that they would. But the fact that everything went as smoothly as it did, I think, was a pleasant surprise to everybody in mission control and the astronauts up in space.

9:24But I suppose this was the point of Artemis 2. Artemis 1 was uncrewed. Artemis 2, we have humans now. And that human element always throws up interesting things. But as you say, it went beautifully. So now, yeah, roll on Artemis 3 and 4. Absolutely. And I feel I have to give a shout out as well to the European Service Module. One of the highlights, I think, you know, from the translunar injection that was just spot on. And there we were waiting for those orbital correction burns that never happened. because the navigation system was so good. So fantastic to see that element of the mission working brilliantly as well.

10:02Yeah, and how about a round of applause for the heat shield? Orion's heat shield that we were all so worried about. You know, we're still going to wait for the official analysis by NASA as to exactly how it performed. But early indications from NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman are that it did perform better than in Artemis 1. and that's very good news for Artemis 3 and Artemis 4 taking place relatively quickly, right? Yeah, I think that change of trajectory, that skip entry, it seems because I was quite worried because I saw the pictures of sort of a heat shield from Artemis 1, but just changing the trajectory really solved the problem.

10:44So it is good here, waiting for more results, but it's really good to hear. Yeah, and it's great to have that redundancy as well. The more data they get And the more kind of re-entry profiles that they try as well will allow them to gather this information that on future missions, they can adjust that re-entry profile as they see fit. And that's going to give them scope to deal with other problems as they may emerge throughout, you know, future Artemis missions. So this is really great data to be getting this early on. And while we're talking about future Artemis missions, I think it's really fascinating to think that, you know, I was just talking to some folks at NASA at the Johnson Space Center a few days ago, and they said, look, the ball's now in Blue Origin and SpaceX's quirk.

11:32We had a successful mission, and now for Artemis 3 to happen, we've already rolled out the core stage of Artemis 3 for the SLS rocket. Our hardware is ready to go. Now the ball is squarely in Blue Origin and SpaceX's court. And just a few days ago on Capitol Hill, Jared Isaacman, the NASA administrator, was testifying about NASA's budget. And he said that those two space companies, the potential human landing system providers, they told him that their landing systems, human landing systems, which is Blue Moon for Blue Origin and Starship for SpaceX, would be ready in late 2027. And that's different from what NASA had been saying just back in February.

12:20Back in February, the target was mid-2027. now late 2027. So already we can see a little bit of slippage in the schedule. I always thought the timescale was a little optimistic. So the fact they're putting in a bit of slippage now sort of makes sense, giving them a bit of breathing space, because turning that around that fast just seems optimistic. Maggie, there's no way NASA or any space company would put forth a timeline that's too optimistic. Never happened before. Well, I think that there's a great point there, Kristen. And now that we have had such a successful Artemis 2 mission and that NASA have this momentum and positivity, it's probably a good time to summarise what NASA's published plans are for the next two Artemis missions.

13:07So when Artemis 3 was first announced, it was billed as the return to the lunar surface, first human landing since Apollo. But space exploration really flows a straight line, as we've just been discussing. And a few months ago, in early 2026, NASA announced major changes. Instead of heading straight for the moon, Artemis 3 will now stay much closer to home. It's become a mission that's going to stay in low Earth orbit, designed to test the rest of the systems that will eventually take astronauts to the lunar South Pole. So in that sense, you can consider Artemis 3 is perhaps equivalent to Apollo 9.

13:42It's a dress rehearsal and it's a chance to test the human landing system. As Kristen, as you said, that could be either SpaceX's starship or it could be Blue Origin's blue moon, but in Earth orbit where help is only hours away, not days away. So the HLS is going to launch independently of Orion. Orion will still launch on the space launch system. But then the two will rendezvous in low Earth orbit. Because before you can trust a spacecraft to take humans to the moon, you need to test it locally. And that for us is low Earth orbit, where the risks are manageable, because it all needs to work flawlessly.

14:19Because it's all about transferring the crew to the lunar lander. So first of all, they need to dock with this. Then they need to check that their life support systems are compatible. And then, of course, you need to transfer the crew who will navigate to the moon's surface. And so Artemis 3, remember, it was originally targeting mid-2027. Now, NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman says that SpaceX and Blue Origin say it will likely be late 2027 before their human landing systems are ready. And as you can gather, there's a lot changing all the time. And so we have to caveat what we're saying. It could change very quickly.

14:57But another advantage of this low Earth orbit docking, rather than doing the docking a quarter of a million miles away to the moon, is that NASA could save one of their upper stages for a future use. So this interim cryogenic propulsion stage, the ICPS, that you need if you're going to go to the moon, you don't need that if you're going to go into low Earth orbit. They only have one left. NASA only has one ICPS left. So they could save that and use it on Artemis 4 and just put a dummy in its place on Artemis 3. Or if they do use the ICPS on Artemis 3, then they're going to need a new upper stage, which is the Centaur 5 for the Artemis 4 mission.

15:42So, you know, Centaur 5 is not ready to go yet. And with so many changes happening, it may be that they just use a dummy on Artemis 3 and save that last ICPS for Artemis 4. So assuming a successful Artemis 3, then the NASA's team's effort will shift to Artemis 4, which is currently targeted for early 2028. And that will actually place boots on the Moon. And Artemis 4 will carry four astronauts to lunar orbit aboard Orion. And waiting for them there, hopefully, will be a fully tested human landing system, either Starship or Blue Moon, placed in orbit by a separate launch. and then the astronauts are going to transfer into that lander just like they would have done on Artemis 3 in practice in low Earth orbit and that lander is going to take them down to the south pole of the Moon.

16:31And it's fair to say the south pole is a region unlike anything that the Apollo astronauts ever explored. They were landing around the equatorial region of the Moon and Maggie you'll probably be able to tell us more about this but the south pole is quite remarkable. It's got some of the highest mountains in the solar system Parts of it are in permanent shadow, and that takes it down to really, really cold temperatures, some as minus 250 Celsius. But parts of them are in permanent sunlight, where you could be at plus 130. And it's hoped that in those cold, dark regions at the south pole of the Moon, that's where the frozen water ice may lie in the darkness.

17:12Yeah, I love that, lurking in the darkness. And that's it. Because they are permanently shadowed, asteroids might have deposited sort of water on the moon in the past, but they won't evaporate because they're sheltered and in 24, well, 24-7, constant darkness. And so once they're there on the surface, they'll spend about a week conducting experiments, collecting samples, testing out new technology, and of course wearing those brand new spacesuits which have been designed and built by Axiom Space. And the whole purpose of these spacesuits is to make them a little bit more comfortable and flexible for surface operations.

17:52Because remember, guys, the whole point of the Artemis program is a permanent presence on the surface of the moon. They want to build a base on that lunar south pole. That's right. And so, Kristen, it's not just Blue Origin and SpaceX that are under pressure here. You know, Axiom are under pressure as well to get that spacesuit ready because these are critical items that are needed. We don't currently have a spacesuit that is ready for a lunar EVA. So we need this suit to work. And it's a brilliant upgrade. When you see that old footage of the Apollo astronauts, it's remarkable what they were doing in those suits.

18:29But you can tell they're hopping around. It's very cumbersome, sometimes falling over, then really difficult to get back up again. So we need a suit where you can bend at the knees if possible, bend at the waist, you can kneel down, you can pick something up. We need gloves that have got much more fidelity where you can actually feel the rocks that you're picking up. And the Axiom suit is designed to give all of that flexibility and to give all of that dexterity in your fingers. But it's also designed to be used again and again and again in that really harsh environment of the lunar surface. and lunar regolith, it's an evil substance.

19:07I mean, the moon has no atmosphere, right Maggie? So for four billion years on Earth, all of our lovely particles of sand have been ground down by wind and by rain and they're lovely and smooth and we can lie on the beach and enjoy it. But if you are lying on lunar regolith, you are lying on shards of horrible glass. Yes, yes, silico, glass. And yeah, pretty uncomfortable, I would think. But yes, it makes the spacesuits vulnerable. But if all goes according to plan, when those astronauts climb the ladder and step onto the moon's surface, it will mark the end of a 56-year gap of human exploration of the moon.

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21:15cruise joins us now and freshly back from the mission that we've been talking about all series we're delighted to be welcoming to 13 minutes presents canadian astronaut jeremy hansom hello jeremy great to be with you tim it's great that you could join us today and when we last spoke you were in quarantine in houston and um i think it's fair to say we were all pretty excited about the mission that was coming up and something we've just been talking about is just how brilliantly it went. I mean, huge congratulations to you and the crew and to the wider team on a flawless mission. And did you expect it to go so well?

21:53We definitely didn't, we prepared for it to not go well. That's basically, as you know, all we did was prepare for the off nominal. And when it went that smoothly, that was really great. And it gave us a lot of space to kind of just get through the entire experience and do a really good job of the, observing the moon. So I mean, we're all super grateful it went as smoothly as it did. But it is one of the cautions that you have to keep in the back of your head that early success is not always the greatest teacher. And we just have to be really cautious of that going forward. Because it was just so obvious during the mission, there were so many points where it could have suddenly gotten a lot harder.

22:32Jeremy, it's so great to see you. And I was so pleased I got to see you and give you a hug in Houston. Welcome home. I'm just so relieved that all of you are back safe on Earth. My first question to you is about how this was your very first flight to space and the fact that it was such a historic mission. What were your first moments and your first night like in space? A lot of astronauts get sick. A lot of astronauts take some time to adjust. What was your first 24 hours in space like and did you get any sleep? My first space experience is pretty extraordinary. You never know. I really was preparing for the worst from that perspective because it is pretty common to have space adaptation sickness or motion sickness.

23:26And I just kind of assumed I would because one of my roles in the capsule was to get out of my seat right away. And I had a lot of little tasks I had to do. I had to get in a lot of compartments. It meant just changing orientation learning how to fly very quickly in space. And I just thought, man, this is going to be really tough on my vestibular system. But somehow I got away with it. And I was really grateful for my body. And I just felt good. The whole first day, I didn't feel anything, really, I just felt normal, except I was floating around. And I had a big smile. And I was having a lot of fun.

23:56And then I, you know, my first glimpses out the window, I saw the it would have been the Indian Ocean, It was just all water. It was kind of the first thing I saw at the window, and that was pretty spectacular. But I only had a few moments to stare at it and then got back to work. And then the next thing I saw was Australia, and it's just so red and vibrant. And that was really spectacular. And then you've seen the pictures just on from there. Even in that first day before we went to sleep, we'd seen some just absolutely incredible things. And I slept quite well, except it was cold, and it felt like camping the first night.

24:33As you said, the launch went flawlessly. And of course, we were all here on Earth watching with bated breath. But when it came to the translunar injection, there was a possibility that it wasn't going to happen when it did. But when you got that thumbs up, collectively as a group, what did that moment feel like? The fact that you were going to the moon and you were going to the moon for all of us? That's very interesting because, you know, even and I don't think it was that obvious on the loops because we never actually read out loud what we saw on our caution and warning display and what mission control saw on their caution and warning display.

25:09But we were talking about it on the loops. We were both seeing the same thing. And we had this warning that we had a cabin leak suspected 20 minutes to TLI. And, you know, this is one of the things that we train a lot for. And this is a high risk area when you're coming back and getting into those lower altitudes, coming back to Earth for the trans-luter injection, where you go through a lot of satellite bands and a lot of debris bands. And it's one of our highest risk areas for a cabin leak. And so when that warning went off, it was just like, oh, gosh. So we're either going to burn TLI and go to the moon in 20 minutes, or we're about to get in our spacesuits and try to figure out how we're going to find this hole and patch it or survive.

25:47and it would have been at least another 24 hours before we could come home at that point. So we all knew what that meant at that moment. We didn't have to say it. We didn't talk about it. We knew what was at stake in that moment. But that was in our minds, the gains were turned way up. And it turned out to be a false alarm. We didn't have a cabin leak and we went ahead and burnt TLI. And that's a long burn. And when it was done, you just had a sense of, OK, now the spacecraft's good. It's been working well for 24 hours. we're going to the moon that kind of felt that felt it was a unique feeling in my life that must have been must have been a huge relief to get that burn done and think that's it we're we're on our way and jeremy you said about that first day in space you know you were feeling good and seeing those views but we were watching back here and of course it was crazy what you were just doing in that first highly elliptical orbit you you were going out twice as far as geostationary satellites and then hurtling back in towards the Earth, back up to nearly 25 ,000 miles an hour to get you on the way to the moon.

26:48So a crazy first day. When we were talking before the mission, something you said that was really quite interesting was that there was nobody to tell you what was normal. When we fly to the space station, we've been doing it for so many years on the Soyuz and even Dragon now, there's someone to tell you what that's going to be like, what to expect. um so what will you pass on to the crews as to how sls performed on launch and re-entry yeah the things that kind of surprised me not a lot but a little bit was uh the rumbling of the rocket just about probably three or four seconds earlier than i thought um i was expecting to feel it after the rs25s the four main engines lit and i felt i thought we would start feeling it then but i felt it at about t minus eight seconds this kind of rumble came up the rocket and i thought that's a bit early hope that's normal and then uh and then then i then i did feel like a bigger rumble when the rs25 started to come to life and then we jumped off the pad um the other thing that was just interesting was that the simulator did a really great job of simulating the noises of launch from like the sound of the the wind as you're going through max q this this period of highest dynamic pressure on the vehicle it does get really loud the wind is pretty loud in there which was interesting but the simulator had sort of prepared us for it uh the r or the solid rocket boosters those two big white boosters on the side um it the g really tails off when you when they're about to come off the vehicle or you're going to jettison them you really get back to a low g before that happens and we carry them a little longer than than i just it felt different than i expected which was which was interesting and then probably the other thing i mean there's a million things i will tell them but the other thing about uh watch is when we get when you separate from the upper stage it was it was a lot more force than any of us expected and we we just sent back into the floor of the capsule and we were like well either we separated or we exploded one or the other thankfully the former right jeremy i had a chance to ask a question at y 'all's first news conference back on Earth.