Afghanistan's love poetry princess

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The Interview. The best conversations from across the BBC. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. With the people shaping our world. You're making decisions that will have long-term consequences for the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Wind power in the United States has been subsidised for 33 years. Solar for 25 years. That's enough! The interview from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:07Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

1:28This is The Fifth Floor, at the heart of global storytelling with BBC journalists from all around the world. I'm your host, Farhanak Amidi.

1:43For many Afghans, poetry is very much a part of everyday life, whether that be in the Dadi or Pashto language. It weaves in and out of conversation effortlessly and is an important way of communicating and connecting with one another. The Taliban government issued a new law back in August on regulating poetry, which prohibits writing romantic poetry or poetry between men and women. The law states that poetry must be free of imaginary love, illicit desires and inappropriate emotions. In this episode of The Fifth Floor, I want to learn a bit more about Afghanistan's relationship with love poetry and to hear about one of the most venerated figures in Afghan culture, Rabia Balkhi, known to be the first female poet to write in Persian.

2:38So I'm delighted to say that I have three very special guests in the studio today with me, Olya Farzan and Shakiba Habib, both from BBC Afghan Service. And we welcome back to the show poet, writer, broadcaster, and former BBC Language Service journalist, Abdullah Al-Shadon. Everyone, welcome to the fifth floor. It's great to see you here. Thank you. Now, before we get started, in preparation for this conversation, I took a little trip down to the fifth floor where the BBC Afghan colleagues sit. And I went to their desks to find out a bit more about the role that poetry plays in their lives. Let's have a listen.

3:17Okay, they're all here.

3:24So, Hamidjan, is there a poem that you really like that you can recite for us? Yeah, of course. Shall I say it in my language? It says,

3:46It's about, like, you have to be very good with others, always be kind, be mindful, and help them as much as you can, and make them happy always. That's lovely. Okay, that's what I remember right now. Also, another question. So the name Rabia Balhi, what does it mean to you? To me, Rabia Balhi, she's a very brave and very good woman. I have read a lot about her, and also she was a very role model to other women, Afghan women, to be brave and to fight for whatever she wants to get. Shazia, hello. Could you tell me why Rabia Balkhi is important, even to this day? Even in these days, some families, they named their daughters Rabia, and in Kabul there's a school named Rabia.

4:41and it was a girls' school because now girls are not allowed to go to schools. I studied in Afghanistan and so we had so many lessons about Rabia Balqi and I think Rabia Balqi for most of the people, especially for women, is a symbol of inspiration and there's really a kind of interesting love story related to Rabia Balqi as well. So it's like a fairy tale for most girls. When some teenage girls, they are talking about, I don't know, about Cinderella or Prince Charming or something. So Rabia Malhi has a story like that as well. But most importantly, that she was one of the finest poets during that time.

5:26And she has written about her own feelings as a woman, as a lover. Afghanistan is a conservative country. and even we have so many female poets that when they write about their own emotions, they write their own poetry and their anonymous character. But Rabia wasn't like that. So, Abdullah, is there an Afghan poem that you know by heart or is very special to you or is something that you use in your daily life, maybe? Yeah. In our culture, when we say something, We also put poems in the middle. I know. Every now and then. When the discussion is about day-to-day life and the news that are coming, there is a great poet in Pashto.

6:16He says,

6:21What is that? It means the bad news are coming every day to this town. When you are living in a country where this war is part of everyday life, it fits very well. Poetry is part of our day-to-day conversation there in Pashto and Parsi. All the time. Yeah, all the time. And one last thing. What does the name Rabia Balkhi mean to you? I think like the victim. Because I had heard that she was the victim of this killing. Yeah. because she loved someone and then she was not allowed to marry him. And it shows that the day-to-day restrictions that our women and girls are going through today, the similar things were at that time.

7:10Exactly. Thank you so much, Abdullah John. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. So I want to hear from all of you about what you thought about what your colleagues said. Does any of it chime with you? But Shakiba, when Hamid was reciting that poem, you were nodding your head. You know that poem. What did you think of the whole thing? The news from Afghanistan is mostly about war. Hardly any positive comes out from that part of the world. But in contrast, love has always been a part of our life, our culture, our literature. So most of the poetry that you read from Afghanistan, it's really positive.

7:52It's mostly about love. Yeah, there are bits of heartbreaking in there as well, which comes with love, obviously. Of course. It really gives you a complete opposite picture of Afghanistan. So it's not all about war and kind of rivalry and these things. It's all about love. And there have been women part of it, as we said about Rabia. So there are other female poets and also from Dari, Persian and Pashto. So we have got a really good number, really prominent from these languages that mostly, as I said, they talk about love. They talk about their lovers and then how they struggle to meet them and then how joyful it is to meet them and things like this.

8:38So it's to me, it's a really pleasant and good side of Afghanistan. them. So when I asked your colleagues about Rabia, they described her with words like brave or a symbol of sisterhood and all of that very positive. Alia, can you firstly paint a picture of the context in which Rabia lived? Because it was a long time ago, it was the 10th century, if I'm not wrong. There are different narratives regarding the life of Rabia Balkhi. And what I'm going to tell you is from Elahi Nama, from Atari Nishapuri. He had described where Rabia was born, how her life was. So Rabia was born in 10th century, and her father was one of the rulers in Balkhi at the time.

9:22She's coming from a very strong and powerful family, yet conservative. At the beginning, her father was very supportive of Rabia. That's why she grew into literature and also poetry. He always supported her, even brought her to the parties or gatherings that poets were there and mystics were there. So Rabia could learn from them. And she learned. And she used to read her poems to her father as well. That's why she was always supported and encouraged into literature and poetry, as well as being very beautiful and brave as well. I think it's my personal opinion, but I think maybe others also agree with it.

10:02This made her very special, because in that conservative era, she was the one who was exposed, who could gather the parties, the gatherings of mystiques and poets. But yeah, she was brave. I think this made her very special and different from other women. She wrote love poetry, romantic poetry, and Persian. But why is that so significant? Rabia was the first woman who wrote poets in Farsi. And also she's believed to be the first person who has written about love. At the time in 10th century, most of the poets were in royal courts. And they were complementing the royals through their poetry. And Rabia was the one that wrote about personal, yeah, personal hopes, desires and just about love.

10:59So when you say she was writing about love who was she in love with who was she writing to or about? Even in here there are different narratives such as Atar says that her love was divine and holy he somehow believed that it's not the personal love the physical love it's the love for God through Bakhtosh the her lover but in some text, it's believed that, yeah, it was a personal love, physical love. We always have that in Persian love, in Persian poetry that, you know, scholars are divided. Yeah. And regarding her lover or beloved, Bakhtosh, even in here, there are different narratives. So when you say Bakhtosh, who is Bakhtosh?

11:43Yes, I'm about to get to that point. Give us the juicy bits. Yeah. It's believed that after Rabia's father passed away, that Horace got to be the ruler. then Bakhtosh was working in Horace's court or palace. But in some cases or some narratives, it says that Bakhtosh was in Horace's army as the chief commander. But overall, when Rabia saw Bakhtosh either in the palace or outside the palace, she completely fell in love with Bakhtosh. So she decided to express her love through her poems. And Rabia had a mate. In Elahi Nama, it says that Rabia pleaded to the mate to be the messenger. between her and Bakhtosh.

12:26And eventually the maid accepted because Rabia was added as a daughter to her. Yeah. And also she was powerful. So they were just exchanging these messages. Bakhtosh was receiving the love letters or the poems, but he didn't know who was this mysterious woman who's sending love poems. Eventually, as it is said in the textbooks, he saw one of Rabia's pictures. obviously it was a painting back then and he knew that oh this girl or this woman is Rabia and he went to a marketplace or somewhere that he saw Rabia and saying that I'm in love with you you're writing this letter for me and just expressing the love back to Rabia but Rabia somehow got mad at him saying that this is not an unholy love don't make it physical or unholy but at the end it was the love between two persons and Shaki Bab, now I'm dying to actually hear some of her poetry and I know that you brought some extracts so please share it with us of course, I will just read it in Persian and I will give you a rough idea of what it is about yes, perfect yeah

14:01So it means that love is not easy. And it's an endless ocean that you cannot swim to the other side. And also, if you want to get to your lovers, you have to make with all the unpleasant things that comes your way. You have to eat something like poison, but you eat it like it's something really sweet, your honey. So, yeah, it just really gives you a complete picture of the bittersweet feeling of love. Sophia Balkhi's story has a tragic end. The death of her father and the arrival of a new ruler left her unprotected, and when her poetry writing was discovered, she was imprisoned, some say in a bathhouse, and never regained her freedom.

14:53Some sources even say that she wrote her final poems on the walls of the bathhouse in her own blood. Trying to escape is not possible. Love is an ocean without boundaries. A wise person would not want to swim in it. But despite her sad end, Rabia's story has kept reappearing for almost every Afghan generation. And broadcaster and filmmaker Abdullah Shadan has a personal connection with Rabia's story and has been patiently waiting in the wings. Now, Abdullah, I want to bring you in. And you actually played the role of Bakhtar in a feature film that was made about the life of Rabia back in the 70s in Afghanistan.

15:40How did that happen? Just tell me the story. Well, during my university years, I used to work for the Department of Art and Literature of Radio Afghanistan as a poem reciter, I can say. I've got the voice for it Maybe That's why the reason Anyway, those years I took a lot of interest In literature Before that my family Also they liked a lot Poetry, particularly Persian poetry Anyway, when I Graduated from the university A few friends of mine They wanted to produce a film They asked me, said that You're acquainted with literature and all these things, so you come and help us. I said, okay, I can help you.

16:31But later they asked me to play the role of Baktaj too. I love this. At that time, my girlfriend, Sima, she didn't want me to play any role with other girls. Oh, I don't blame her.

16:56anyway if you are going to play any romantic role you're going to play it with me I love that joke aside she also liked to be in the film so she played the role of Rabia and I played the role of Baktash yeah and that's why that's the story we have a clip from that film and I believe it's a dialogue between Baktash and Rabia I think it's the first time they speak to each other so let's have a listen Thank you very much.

18:16How does it feel listening back? It must be very emotional. You got emotional. Before I was born. It's emotional and nostalgic a bit. Yeah, it is. And Abdullah, when the film came out, it did very well at the box office back then. But then in the 90s when the Taliban took over, it was in danger of being destroyed because they raided the National Film Archives. What happened? How did it survive? Yeah, the Taliban attacked the Afghan Film Archive. One of the colleagues, one of the staff of Afghan Film, they tried to hide all these films. And they said that they built a wall between the archive and the other part of the Afghan film building.

19:08And they kept it like that. Of course, the Taliban destroyed some films and some tapes, but the films were saved. Also making the film, there was a lot of challenges. But what would you say some of the most positive aspects of making that film were? First of all, as you mentioned, the film was very welcomed by the people, by the audiences we received. And also make a lot of money. Sometimes say that it made more than Indian film because people liked their own stories. And the second most important point was that in this, the film featured around 20 or more than 20 girls and women at that time.

19:53Which is the big deal. Yes. And this illustrated that the women at that time had the opportunity to learn to act in films 50 years ago. And also portraying a strong, brave woman, a role model for a lot of women. Yeah, and the last thing, the last positive point is that the film conveyed a very important message about the role of the women, about the historic cultural heritage of the region, and about the influence and possibilities which were available for the women at that time. Absolutely. But maybe Rabia's most important legacy is that she paved the way for future generations. hundreds of years later.

20:40Afghan women are still passionate about poetry, even to this day, and despite the ban. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. Is the US conceding the green energy race to China? When the Trump administration said it was pulling out of the Paris Agreement for a second time, it seemed like a wholesale withdrawal from the climate change question. All the while, China's becoming a global powerhouse of green technology. What could happen in the long run if the US continues to cede the floor to China on clean energy? Listen to The Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

21:33that will have long-term consequences for the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Wind power in the United States has been subsidised for 33 years. Solar for 25 years. That's enough! The interview from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom and the trading floor. That's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive. But even I've got questions. Join me, Merrin's Upset Web, every week for my show Merrin Talks Money from Bloomberg Podcasts, where I have in-depth conversations with fund managers, strategists and experts about how markets really work.

22:14And join me for a separate episode where I answer listener questions and how to make those markets work for you. Follow Merrin Talks Money on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.

22:26This is The Fifth Floor and I'm Farina Kamidi. I want to finish with a particular kind of poem in Pashto, mostly recited by women in rural areas. It's about, yes, of course, love and heartbreak. And it has survived despite successive generations of women being denied access to education. It's just passed from woman to woman, unwritten. I asked Shakiba to tell me more about it. I love that, I would say, genre of Pashto poetry. What's it called, the genre? it's lande or the tape the really simple form of poetry wordings are really simple but they are just so full of romance love and longing and as you said you know it's passed through word of mouth so obviously when the mother talks about her life and how probably met the dad so it just goes from a generation to generation and also we have got a scene by scene from chest to chest Absolutely.

23:27And we have got loads of songs, actually. There are loads of singers singing them. So I'll just give you a few that they are my most favorite. Ma panasib mundalya yara, de khalko khuleyde rana wali belawina. Very good. So what does it say? It's all about love. And it says it basically the girl asked the lover to come at midnight because people are asleep and the stars are not telling the tale. And the other one is that my heart is really, really, I'm by. I'm made of a clay that's really, really vibrant. But my fate is really not helping me in that sense. Yeah, again, it's all full of love and I absolutely love them.

24:19Gorgeous. Alia, I believe that your grandmother was illiterate, but she knew a lot of poems by heart. Is that quite common in that region? I think we had a lot of older women in Iran that I remember were like that. So in my region, mostly, as I can recall, in the north side of the country, there is this culture that people sometimes talk through poems. My grandmother hasn't been to school. I can't remember her because she passed away when I was a toddler. But my older brothers and my mom used to tell me that she was really good at saying this irony through poems. So the boys would go to school and they would bring the literature into the family or maybe they would sit in gatherings and tell the tales to women of the family.

25:09My grandma used to say that to Azmashadi, Beishadi, she was telling it, you came from me but you think that you're better than me she used to say it in irony but the main the original form is to as man should you manas to them to as man be should manas to be should them it's part of maulana's poem saying that you became part of me and i part of you through me you were refined and through you i was renewed she used to say it as an irony telling to the kids that you're part of me, but you're acting that you're better than me. The original feminist, your grandma. Yes, she was. Thank you. Abdullah, Shakiva, Alia, thank you so much for this lovely and inspiring conversation.

26:00My pleasure. Thank you. Now, if you're in the mood for more stories from our fantastic language service journalists, you can listen to all of our previous episodes online and wherever you get your podcasts. We have stories that look behind the headlines from all over the world. Like the story about Chicken 65, an iconic Indian dish we discuss with one of our reporters in India, Bimal Tankashan. It's spicy, crispy chicken adored in the south of India. You can eat it in upmarket restaurants and roadside food stalls alike. But how did it get its name? So... One theory suggests that the chicken was cut into 65 pieces before cooking.

26:46One theory suggests that it has 65 spices. Another theory suggests that it was the 65th item on the menu. A lot of people believe that theory as well. But the actual reason as to why the name of the dish is 65 is simply because the proprietor of the hotel that invented the dish, made this in 1965. It's as simple as that. I love that. So tell me about the person behind this dish and the restaurant where this dish was served for the first time. So the Chicken 65 originally hails from the southern part of India. It comes from a city that is now known as Chennai, and it was invented at a time when it was known as Madras.

27:34The proprietor of the hotel that invented the dish was A.M. Buhari. And he founded this restaurant in Chennai somewhere in the 50s, in the 1950s. He started the restaurant. And to celebrate New Year's, he made this dish in 65. And he gave it to his friends and family who all came to his restaurant to have it. And they were like, what is this? And he was like, chicken 65? You can find that interview and many others. Just search for the documentary podcast and look for The Fifth Floor. That's almost all we've got time for today. But don't forget, you can write to us at the fifth floor at bbc.co.uk.

28:18That's the fifth floor, all one word at bbc.co.uk. Thank you to Cliff Sloan, who emailed us to ask, what are the three languages used in the introduction? I can identify Spanish. The second is either Uzbek or Turkish, but I'm stumped about the third. Indonesian? First, we thought we would just tell Cliff the answer, but that's not going to be fun. Can you help Cliff out? What are the languages in our introduction? Send your answers to the5thfloor at bbc.co.uk. That's all from me, Farineke Amidi, and the rest of the 5th Floor team. Thanks for listening.