Archaeology and war

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

1:02This is The Fifth Floor, at the heart of global storytelling with BBC journalists from all around the world. I'm your host, Faranak Amidi.

1:17A top Russian archaeologist is currently under arrest in Poland. Aleksandr Butiagin is awaiting a Polish court decision on a request from Ukraine for him to be extradited. He's a scholar at the Hermitage, Russia's largest art museum in St. Petersburg, and has been digging in an ancient site in Crimea since 1999. Ukrainian authorities claim that he is criminally damaging and looting the site, making the most of the Russian occupation. Butyagin himself denies all charges. It is a story that Gregor Atanizhiyan of BBC Russian has been looking into. I first asked him to tell me more about this ancient Crimean site.

2:01So the archaeological site is called Myrmikion, which is the name of the ancient Greek city, which was founded there by colonists from what is now Turkey, but ancient Greeks in the 6th century BC. So around the time when democracy was founded first in Athens. And so from then on, there was for millennia, we can say almost, almost. There was this civilization which was first a Hellenistic ancient Greek kingdom, then became a part of the Byzantine Empire or Eastern Roman Empire. Then it was attacked by the barbarians, different tribes which were passing through Crimea. Then it was occupied by the Mongols.

2:39The Italians from Genoa sailed there and there was a Genoese fortress. And then finally it was taken over by the Ottoman Empire. And there is an Ottoman castle as well on that side. And And then in the end, it became part of the Russian Empire. Russia has conquered Crimea. And then through that, from Soviet Union to currently part of Ukraine, which is now occupied by Russia. Rich history and probably very rich in archaeological treasures as well. So who is Butyagin and how long has he been digging there for? So Mr. Butyagin's case is really, really interesting because he's been digging at that site, Mirmykion, in Crimea since 1999.

3:18he was only 25 or 26 when he became the head of the expedition but really he first came there when he was a schoolboy and he started digging, it was during the Soviet time in the 1980s and so since then he was digging from 1999 of course the problems start with 2014 Russian illegal occupation annexation of Crimea because before that his expedition was perfectly legal because it had permission from Ukraine. And from 2014, he stopped getting those permissions to dig there from Ukraine, and he just carried on with the Russian permissions. So what are the laws and conventions regarding archaeological excavations during this land disputes and wars?

4:05So there is this second protocol to the Hague Convention, which is specifically about preservation of cultural heritage during wars and conflicts armed conflicts and occupation and it says that the occupying power which is russia in crimea should prohibit any archaeological excavations barring very few narrow exceptions such as if you're going to build a road this site going to be bulldozed and you need to dig and see whether there is anything ancient below that, which is not the case in Myrmykia. Ukraine, Poland, and most of European countries are parties to that second protocol. Russia is not.

4:45So what are the Ukrainians accusing him of right now? So he stands accused, first, of illegal excavations, basically the fact that he was digging without authorization from Ukraine. And there is an additional charge, more serious charge, of destroying the cultural heritage, the archaeological monument itself. And it seems like he's not being accused of actual destruction. He carried on the work that he used to. It's just the very fact that he was doing his scientific research without the proper papers from Ukraine is being seen or treated by Ukraine as destruction. But my colleague, they've been looking into the legal side of it, And they think that the part about destruction is added specifically to make it possible to extradite him because he's arrested under arrest in Poland and he only can be extradited legally if he's committed a crime which is serious enough.

5:45And illegal excavations, they are not serious enough. So there is an added charge of destruction. Why is he in Poland? That is very curious. So despite the fact that he was indicted by Ukraine several years ago and there was an arrest warrant out against him last year by Ukraine, he continued to travel across Europe. He traveled a lot across Western Europe. And he was in December, he was given lectures in a few European capitals. He went to Amsterdam first, then he went to Warsaw. It was supposed to go to Belgrade. And then in Warsaw, he was detained and then arrested on Ukraine's request. So what do Ukrainian authorities say he should have done and when should have he done it to make his activities legal?

6:30From the Ukrainian standpoint, it's very black and white. He should have requested Ukrainian authorization permission to dig in Crimea after 2014, the way that he did before the annexation. He was first sanctioned by Ukraine in 2019. Initially, he carried on digging. He brushed off those sanctions. And then after the full-scale invasion in 2022, he kept on digging still in Ukraine, leading the excavations. And then he was sanctioned for 10 years by Ukraine, and then this criminal case was opened. And what about other Russian archaeological excavations? What has happened to them since the annexation of Crimea in 2014 and then the full-scale invasion in 2022?

7:15So a lot of other Russian excavations just carried on, and some other Russian scientists have been indicted by Ukraine, but none were arrested or detained yet. Nevertheless, some of the Russian scientists decided in 2014, and even more so after 2022, the full-scale invasion, to cease work in Crimea, because they didn't want to stand in violation of international law. There was this eight-year gap between the occupation of Crimea and the full-scale invasion. Many even Russian state companies didn't go into Crimea because they understood that they would be immediately in violation of international law.

7:53So some of Russian scientists, researchers, archaeologists, they didn't want to do that. For Butyagin, it's specifically, basically, this project, this Myrmikion excavation is his life goal. So what are some of the supporters of Butyagin saying about him and the accusations against him? This case surprised a lot of people. And obviously there is the Kremlin and the Russian foreign ministers speaking out in defense of Mr. Butyagin. But also some of the anti-WO and anti-Putin Russians and prominent public figures, public intellectuals spoke out in his defense. And there are broadly, I would say, two arguments.

8:33One is narrow technical argument that if an archaeologist abandons a site and site specifically as rich as this one, there is all the risk that criminals, people would come and dig it up and sell it on the black market. so in one in that argument him carrying on was just a way to protect the monument he cares about the second argument in his defense is a bit more I think there are sort of imperialist undertones to it from the Russian specifically very imperial view but it says Mr. Butyagin we should say is a top researcher, top scholar at the Russia's biggest museum the state hermitage in St. Petersburg So the Hermitage has been digging in Crimea for 150 years.

9:22And it's not like they rolled there with the Russian tanks in 2014, right? They've been doing that. They were the ones who really started a lot of the excavations in Crimea. You know, Mr. Butyagin first came there when it was Soviet Union. He carried on when it became independent Crimea. Then sort of flags changed, but sort of his scientific research carried on. That's the argument. But of course, it's very, from the Ukrainian side, it's very arrogant. Do things like archaeological discoveries and research get used in war propaganda by Russia? Well, I think that's why a lot of Ukrainians would actually like to see him extradited and stand trial in Ukraine.

10:02because even by the fact that he is this prominent archaeologist who travels freely around Europe, talks about his work, is being listened to, is being invited, is being respected by his European colleagues all the while digging an occupied territory. In the Ukrainian view, it sort of legitimizes occupation, right? And Russian military officers or Russian propagandists, they all sanctioned or the senior figures sanctioned by the West. They cannot go there. People like Butyagin, they sort of can sit on two chairs almost in Ukrainian view. So it's important for them to make an example out of him.

10:36Has Butyagin himself said anything about continuing digging on occupied territories? Yes, he has commented when Ukraine first started to launch the criminal case against him. He said to the effect, I'm not quoting it, but it was to the effect, look, my focus is preservation of this site. My loyalty is to this archaeological site. You know, I'm doing all I can in the most ethical manner to preserve this archaeological site. And what he and his employer, the Hermitage Museum, always stress is that everything that they dig up ends in the local museum in Crimea. So it's not transferred to the Russian mainland.

11:17It stays in Crimea, which is still problematic for Ukraine because Russia took over that museum as well. And its collection is now part of the larger Russian state collection. So it's still, in Ukrainian view, looting of archaeological artifacts. Thank you, Grigor Athanasyan of BBC Russian.

11:42You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is The Fifth Floor and I'm Farina Khamidi.

12:35The Kalbelia are a nomadic community who live in India's northwestern state of Rajasthan. They are a huge part of the cultural identity of the state, known for their singing, dancing and swirling costumes. But despite their renowned culture, the Kalbilia people have faced decades of discrimination and due to their nomadic history, they are left largely without land. This means that the Kalbilia often struggle to perform traditional last rites and bury their dead. Ashay Yerge reports for the BBC in India, and he recently travelled to meet the Kalbeliya to hear their story. So the Kalbeliyas are one of the Rajasthan's oldest nomadic communities.

13:26For generations, they travelled across the desert, performing music and dance, and working as snake charmers. So they used to take these snakes around the country, and perform with the snakes so that people get entertained and they could donate any amount to these people and they could survive on this art of snake jam. So they were dependent on the snakes for the livelihood. In the 1980s, in India, wildlife protection law were enacted. So they were banned from keeping these snakes, which took away their traditional livelihood. In response, they transformed their art in developing a dance inspired by the snake movements.

14:13So whenever you will see the Kalbilya dance, it appears to be like a snake dancing in front of you. Kalbilyas are known for their flowing black costumes. So whenever you will see in Rajasthan, if there are dancers in black swirling costume and they are dancing in the desert with snake movements in the dance, then we can say that these are the people from the Kalbeliya community. Today, Kalbeliya dance is recognized around the world. It is also protected and recognized by the UNESCO, inscribed on the representative list of Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity in 2010, which highlights its cultural significance and supports its preservation as a living tradition.

14:59So the Kalbeliyas are the cultural identity of Rajasthan and of India also But they have faced exclusion from the society So during the British rule, around 200 tribal communities were labelled criminal tribes Under the Criminal Tribes Act of 1871 They were accused of being habitually criminal Forced to report regularly to police and their movements were tightly controlled entire communities were treated as suspects whenever a crime took place nearby deepening their social and economical marginalization so this criminal tribes act was repealed in 1949 after the independence but even after the independence the stigma of being a criminal never truly disappeared today they live physically close to villages but remain socially and legally on the outside of the mainstream.

15:52So if you see, Kalbeliyas are nomadic communities and there are communities in India who have settled in the villages. So those communities who are settled, they have the ownership of the land. But as this community was a nomad community, they used to roam around the country, they didn't own any land. And when the snake charming was banned in the 1980s or so, the traditional livelihood of this community collapsed and they were forced to settle. So they were not the natural settled community. They settled mostly on the forest land, grazing land or the empty government lands, which is in abundance in India.

16:28They didn't have any ownership papers of those lands. They have earned some money and they have bought some small pieces of land. But as a whole, most of these people are landless still. Kalbelias and other nomadic communities follow the Hindu tradition. and most Hindus in India cremate their dead bodies. But Kalbeliyas, they follow the Nath Jogi spiritual tradition which is another different sect and that's why they bury their dead in a seated meditative posture. So whenever someone dies in their family, their dead body is made to sit in a meditative posture and then they are buried in the land.

17:07Traditionally, whenever they used to camp at one place and someone will die, they will bury that person there and they will migrate to another camp. There was no problem earlier, but as the land crisis is growing on, they are finding it difficult to do this. In Indian constitution, there's an article called Article 21. And this article gives us the right to live with dignity. And many courts have extended that right of dignity to the dead bodies in India also. So after death, you have the right to get cremated or buried with dignity. but the Kalbeliya and other many other nomadic communities this dignity is often denied to them villages are organized by caste with recognized cremation grounds for most communities so every community have a recognized cremation ground but Kalbeliyas don't have villages or lands on their name they can't bury on the government land also because they don't have that ownership it's very unfortunate that they have to bury their loved ones in their own courtyards, sometimes their own homes, sometimes in their living rooms.

18:15And women in my recent trip told me whenever someone will die in their family, they will cry quietly. Because if villagers hear about the death, someone who is not the member of the Kalbilia community, if they hear these women are crying, they will know that someone has died in this family and that burial may be stopped. So there are instances happened that families have been forced to take the body out of the graves because of there are some superstitions linked to this Kalbeliya community in the other communities and there is always this conflict we can say on the burial grounds. So when I met the social justice and empowerment minister of Rajasthan he said they are they are making some changes they are trying to give some land to these communities so that they can bury their dead with dignity.

19:03The district administration allotted around half an acre of land for the burials of Kalbilya community. But people said that this was only a promise on paper. The land was actually not delivered to these people. So they are still finding it difficult to bury the dead. Whenever you will visit Rajasthan Tourism's website, you will find that all the posters, all the photos are from the people of these Kalbilya communities. These people are celebrated on the international level as an identity of India or Rajasthan, but they never get the dignity on ground. This is also extended not just to their life, but after the death also, they are denied this right to dignity.

19:51Thanks to Achei Gerge, who reports for the BBC in India. In South Korea, a meme featuring a guy in his 40s wearing expensive trainers and leisure wear and carrying the latest iPhone has gone viral. The phenomenon is called Young 40 and its tone is far from admiring. The Young 40 guy has in fact been attracting the scorn of internet users across the country. The Fifth Floor asked BBC Korean Hyojin Kim to explain what he stands for and why he's come in for so much criticism. Okay, let me explain about the young 40 thing. The term first appeared in Korea around 10 years ago. So at that time, Korea's overall average age was rising quickly, and people in their 40s were becoming the country's core generation in the workplace, in consumer culture, and in society more broadly.

20:51So when this term was first introduced, it actually carried a rather positive meaning. In other words, it referred to people in their 40s who stayed active, paid attention to their appearance, and were familiar with trends and new technology. It reflected a broader shift away from seeing people in their 40s as automatically old or out of touch. However, more recently, the meaning has changed in online spaces. So now it is often used in a teasing or ironic way to describe people in their 40s who appear to be making an effort to look young. Here's South Korean YouTuber reflecting on the meme. Young 40, it's rather quite negative.

21:42It's a term to target certain group of people. I'm included. are basically men in their 40s, but early 40s. So that's me. And here he is reading out some online comments about young 40 men. They post gym selfies with hashtag forever young, but complains about their back pain. They still listen to 90s hits and call them real music. Ah, this hurts. Hurtful. But the keyboard warriors of South Korea are only just getting going. As Hyojung has found, although the critique of young 40s starts with clothing, selfies and music tastes, it does not stop there. Most of these images focus on men. They are often shown wearing street wear, sneakers, sling bags and holding brightly colored newly released iPhones.

22:38And there are also short videos in which these characters dance awkwardly to songs like Soda Pop from K-pop Demon Hunters. These memes spread quickly for a simple reason, because they provoke strong reactions. And because that kind of images are very exaggerated and the comments are open, especially harsh. I seem like this in my neighborhood. They are annoying or disgusting, something like that. And others go further, criticizing their attitude, saying, oh, these men respect different political views or hit on younger women in uncomfortable ways. So even though some people find the content offensive, others continue to share it as entertainment.

23:29So actually, I think it spreads so widely because it tapped into tensions that already exist in Korean society around generation, politics and gender. And of course, economics. The items often associated with young 40 are strongly linked to ideas of youth, energy and style, I guess. For example, air jodans or stooses. For many younger people, these items symbolize youth and passion. At the same time, many of these items are expensive and not easy for younger people to offer, right? So when someone in their 40s appears wearing several of these items at once, Younger people may not see it as sharing the same trend, but as something that feels awkward or out of place.

24:29So in the end, people are not really mocking the items themselves, but reacting to how symbols of youth are being consumed within Korea's strong expectations about age and generational boundaries. And in South Korea, age is always an important factor in any social encounter. Actually, in Korea, first, we tend to ask the age. Older people have long been respected as those with experience and responsibility. Because of that, age has functioned as a social system that organizes relationships. So it affects how people speak, who goes first, and how cautious they are expected to be. I think you can see this clearly in traditional drinking culture.

25:24And when younger people drink with older people, they often turn their heads away when taking a sip as a sign of respect. So given how hierarchy in South Korea is often age-based, for South Koreans who aren't yet 40, the casual style of the typical young 40 man can feel like a pretense. Actually, having youthful taste is no longer unusual. But when those tastes sit on top of traditional age-based authority, this comfort can arise. So I think for people in their 20s or 30s, The third piece, it can feel like someone is acting friendly or casual while still leaning on age and hierarchy when it really matters.

26:14I think it reflects pushback against authority that relied too much on age. Younger generations are more willing to ask why authority should come simply from age and what actually qualified someone as a senior. I think it's important not to see this as a simple jealousy or just a generational fight. I spoke to a psychologist. He explained that in Korea today, people in their 40s, especially men, are often seen as symbols of power and success. So in many workplaces, they still hold decision-making roles. So that is why the mockery often feels deeper. It reflects frustration toward people who can speak, decide, and shape outcomes.

27:17It reflects very different generational experiences colliding. Thank you, Hyo Joon Kim of BBC Korean. And if you want to let us know what you think about the show or you have questions for our amazing correspondents, send an email to the fifth floor at bbc.co.uk. That's the fifth floor, all one word, at bbc.co.uk.

27:45You've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.