Ariana Grande and the public scrutiny of women

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1:43Hello, I'm Andrew Peach. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. This time in BBC Conversations, we bring together Ariana Grande fans and content creators to discuss the scrutiny facing women in the public eye. Ariana Grande's eighth studio album, Petal, is a hit across the world. Its songs have been streamed billions of times and she's partway through a sell-out US and UK tour. But people aren't talking about Ariana Grande because she's a multi-award winning singer and Oscar nominated actor. What's grabbing the headlines is her decision to step back from public life once the tour comes to an end in September.

2:23This follows months of intense social media speculation about the singer's body and health, with many saying she's too thin. Speaking on Monday during one of her shows in Chicago, Grande said that boundaries need to be set. For our first conversation, my colleague Rahul Tanden brought together three Ariana Grande fans. Liva in the UK, Colette joined us from the Netherlands, and singer Rachel in Toronto, Canada. She's just such an inspiration for me as someone who is also in the industry. I aspire to sing like her. I aspire to be like her, to admit the kindness and love that she does. And also, I think a big, big thing for me right now is seeing how much she's healed and how far she's come from the things that she's been through.

3:07It's been so inspirational for me as someone who's also going through my own healing process as we all are in different stages, especially this last album and Eternal Sunshine as well. I've seen, I've felt the healing energy. Like her music has these frequencies that really just make a difference. Every time I feel like I need a pick-me-up, it's Ariana Grande. She reminds me who I am. Her lyrics remind me who I am and what I can achieve. She's a queen of manifesting. Like she knows how to go into things knowing what she wants and knowing how to get them. But she's also like such a kind, beautiful, pure soul in And that's inspirational as well, because a lot of people will just be like, oh, yeah, I just want to get what I want in life.

3:48And that's it. And they forget that there's a whole other aspect to that because we have people all around us and we need to be aware of how we treat them. She's never once been been mean to fans and anything like that. And like the words that I've heard people say are so unwarranted because of the person she is. She is so deserving of just love and like we should be grateful for her. This is Liba and Ayana Gandhi means a lot for her. I've been a fan since I was five years old, since Victoria. And I agree, her songs resonate with me a lot, especially like A Turn of Sunshine. And it's just so beautiful to see how much she's grown.

4:25Colette here, I totally agree with everything that already has been said. It's so beautiful to hear that there are more fans, of course, out there that has the same feeling, love and energy they feel from Ariana. And I really love how she always has been very open through her music. With her fans, it really feels like a deep connection you have with an artist, even though she doesn't know who you are, but it feels like you have a deep connection with someone. and I really grew up with her from the victorious era until now. I was just, I think, 11 years old back then and I can't imagine a world without someone like Ariana because she's so warm-hearted, so open, so honest every time and yeah, she really means the world to me.

5:23I know that you're going to see her, aren't you, Colette, a couple of times. coming up as is Lyber. A question to all of you, and Colette, if you want to go first on this one. She is so important to you, but she is taking this step back. When you heard that news, what went through your mind? I completely understand it. Of course, it is unfortunate, but I think that feeling fades away because I'm a real fan. I know she could really use a break. We had a break before. I think it was just after the Positions album she went filming for Wicked. It was a different kind of break, of course. It was more a break from social media and making music and really going after something that is her big dream.

6:09But now I think it's finally time for her to really take that break and just step back from everything that has to do with the public eye and just really go back to grounding, really go back to her being by herself by her friends her family I just completely understand it touring is physically and emotionally demanding creating music it's something she really loves but I think we underestimate the energy that she puts into it honestly when I found out about the announcement I was at first like upset but obviously it's so understandable I feel like empathy towards her because I feel like over the past year there's been like an intense amount of like public commentary about her body and I think it's easy to like forget that celebrities are still human beings and I don't think any like anyone deserves to have their opinions constantly analysed or like discussed by so many people whether it's someone in the public eye or not but also I feel like with the recent projects she's done she's done so much I feel like more anything i hope that um she takes the time that she needs to feel supported and know that many fans care about her well-being first and foremost and we will all be here waiting whenever she's ready to be back ladies that was so well said yeah when i first heard the news i had a lot of mixed feelings i knew immediately like because i could tell by the way she talked she knew this was the best thing for her and of course i want her to be happy and i'm happy for that i hear people comment on ariana's body for example um making comments about oh she looks a certain way and i'm concerned and and you know it feels like people want to say something because they just want to say it for the sake of saying it and then they they use the excuse that it's concerned genuine concern for her but you know like women's bodies having a commentary on women's bodies has always been an issue for so long ariana grande has spoken up on it herself and people still will talk and i have people in my life who have spoken about that i always say something because i can't stay quiet because it upsets me to know that people are talking about her in this way because nobody knows anything about somebody like, for example, Ariana Grande.

8:22She's got her own life. She's got her own people around her. Our job as a fan base is to love and support her and be grateful for everything she's given us. She is such a wonderful, caring person and she's getting these hateful comments. I can't even imagine how it feels. I remember one time because I'm a content creator and like several years ago, actually many years ago, I was younger, I received one comment that really, really messed with my brain on a singing video that I posted. And that was just one comment. I can't imagine how Ari must have felt like seeing all these comments from people claiming to be concerned, right?

8:57You're right that often people like to make comments, don't they? But is some of it from concern, do you think? I think that some people might be, yeah, for sure. but it's so easy to say something like that and not think about the consequences on somebody's mental health from behind a screen right um like it's it's not it's not that easy to say to someone's face like but when you're on your phone and you put it in a comment section that's easy you post it it's done and you don't think about the repercussions that that might have on someone because no one knows what somebody's like just by looking at somebody what their history is what they've been through, how they are.

9:32And I think that a lot of people are forgetting that during the eras that they say, oh, I miss this old Ari. I want her back. They're forgetting the things this woman has been through. I mean, Ariana has been through so much. She's worked so hard to heal. I'm so incredibly proud of her. I look up to her as an inspiration for me to be able to heal as well. And she's talked so many times about how unwell mentally she was back when people are claiming, oh, she looked so much better. She did this better. She did that better. And I can see how healed and happy she is now in comparison. And people are forgetting that her happiness is what matters, right?

10:10She's been through so much as well, hasn't she? With the bombing in Manchester, with the death of Mac Miller, her partner. I mean, this is somebody who's only 33, but it's been probably through more than many of us will go through in a lifetime. There's an interesting quote that she said, which I was reading about. She said, I've been a specimen in a petri dish since I was 17. Colette and Leiber, a question for you both here. Why is it still that if you're a female pop star, you're under so much more scrutiny than a man is still? And we don't look at Justin Bieber so much, do we? Or make comments or Harry Styles about their appearances.

10:47But when it comes to female pop stars, and let's be honest, they dominate the industry at the moment, we still do, don't we? Yes, of course. Yeah, Colette here. Yeah, I think it's just too easy to pick on a woman. I don't know. I wish I had an answer on this question because it's so interesting to think about. Definitely men don't hear these comments about their body. I think I never, even if I have to think about it right now, if I ever saw some comment or a news article about maybe like a popular actor or in this case, maybe Justin Bieber. I've never seen a comment about their body more than I saw comments about women's body and especially now Ariana Grande.

11:38But I've seen so many from the past, I think year already, I'm getting sick and tired of it. And I think we need to be more respectful for what we put out as Rachel already said it could really damage someone. This is something that I have thought about a lot recently because I feel like I'm starting to notice it even more with people in the industry constantly criticizing women or picking every little bit apart compared to a man and I feel like the only thing I can think of is because for some reason, for some weird reason, I feel like women like female seem to have a set like beauty standards and beauty, they need to look a certain way to fit the ideals.

12:35Liba, Rachel and Colette sharing their thoughts on Ariana Grande's decision to take a break from public life after the end of the Eternal Sunshine Tour. I'm Andrew Peach and you're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

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13:49For our second conversation, we wanted to pick up that point about women facing far more online scrutiny, criticism and comment than men. My colleague Luke Jones brought together Kayleigh, an influencer in the US known as the Gluten-Free Runner. Oriana in Italy, a former ballet dancer working in an industry notorious for issues around body image. And we're going to hear first from Ella, a high jump athlete in Finland. Four years back on 2022 was the World Championships in Oregon. During that year, I had some pretty bad injuries and I had a long rehab going on to the World Championships. So it was a really difficult season for me from an athletic point of view.

14:31And that means usually that it's also difficult mentally to kind of rehab against a deadline and a big important deadline like world championships. And I made the world championship team and I did OK in the qualification, but I didn't quite make the final. I just technically wasn't quite there yet. But like I gave my all and I was like super close making it to the final. But alas, quite didn't. So I made a post about it. and afterwards for the next five days I received more hate than I've ever received in my life and it came through like all my social media platforms email text messages it blew up my phone but it also came through like more traditional routes so through like a normal mail to my home in Finland and it was just astounding in that moment of like where does all this hate come from?

15:31Like, I know my sports are important to me. This is what I do for a living. But why is it so important to other people that they see fit to send online hate to another person? And it was a really difficult five days to live through. I never imagined when I started doing sports as a little girl that there would be a moment that I would have to receive messages that she says that I should kill myself because I didn't perform well in sports or that I am the greatest embarrassment the country of Finland has ever had it was a interesting moment to live through I started doing social media about a year ago on TikTok and Instagram and I look younger than I am, obviously.

16:23When I started, I was 17. People tell me I look like I'm 12 because I'm short or I have a baby face or I'm too skinny. So it gets difficult. I post a lot about running and about baking and just kind of my life, you know, as I head into college and things like that. A lot of the comments I receive are very, very critical, which makes sense because people on the internet are behind a screen so they feel more compelled to say things that they probably wouldn't say otherwise in person but everyone just feels so entitled to share their opinion with you which makes sense and is part of putting yourself out there but at the same time it gets difficult because when people constantly just beat you down about things like your looks or your voice or things you can't really control, it gets a little bit overwhelming and hard to deal with.

17:25But I have found that whereas it used to really, really bother me, I now focus more on the tons of positive messages I receive and how I've made people feel less alone or inspired. And I've learned to kind of take it with a grain of salt because what matters more to me at the end of the day is not what other people think about me, right? If I'm going to live my life with what they do in mind all the time, then I'm living for people that I don't even know. If I can add up to what the girls just said, some people forget or tend to have an image, like a fraction of what you show on social media. I think they can allow themselves to say things that throw all these hate or thoughts without thinking that behind the screen there is a real person it is funny because like when you get hate comments it can be for anything like you can just make the and not it is not even making a mistake but maybe just saying your opinion on something like I remember I had this old video where I spoke about how I did not like Duolingo And I received this massive wave of hate just because I said I didn't like that app.

18:43And I had to enable comments in that video because I just couldn't handle it. So it is curious how if your video or if you have a reach to certain users, you get to that side of social media. That gets really nasty and really tough to handle. and it affects you psychologically because even if you say, OK, I can't handle this, I'm a creator, those people don't know me, I don't care what other people say. But in the long term, when you start getting really aggressive messages, it affects you, it affects the way you feel as a person, especially if you have done nothing wrong. And with that in mind, I wonder what you all think about what's been happening about and around Ariana Grande, the singer.

19:27I have sympathy for her as a person because it does weigh on you when you constantly see so many people saying all this stuff about your body. And regardless of if you know something's wrong or not, it all just catches up to you. And if you can control it, if you can't control it, it's kind of ridiculous for other people to constantly be berating you over it. And so that does get tough. And as someone that deals with a lot of that and constantly catches criticism for my body online and for things that I can't even control about my appearance, it gets tough. But again, I do understand the point where it is part of being a public figure is people are going to have opinions about you and about what you do and about how you look like.

20:28And some of those people are going to be very, very open about those opinions. And so I do understand that. And it's kind of like you have to find a balance between understanding that it's part of being a public figure and and knowing that these people are still people. And it can be hard to realize that Ariana Grande is still a person because a lot of people don't think, oh, she's just like me, you know. Kayleigh put it quite well it's a game you cannot win whatever you do with your appearance you will be criticized by it athletes are quite a lot criticized about their appearance whether it affects well it doesn't usually affect their athleticism in any way or like if they put up too much makeup or too little makeup or if they don't look the certain way that they are supposed to look by it based on this moving goalpost that is based on nothing you sort of have to grow a thick skin because everybody will have an opinion about you and how you should look like doing your thing I can only imagine how hard it is on Ariana being a global superstar being paraded by these comments all the time because even though you know you shouldn't listen to them in any way or pay mind to them they are still there and you're still aware of them to a certain degree I cannot blame her for wanting some some of her own life back some of her privacy back some of the peace and room just to have to herself and not to be on her guard all the time or being wary of like how do I look in this certain moment can I be scrutinized by it can I be critiqued of like how I look in this certain moment all the time so I definitely sympathize with her and her decision to pull out of the public eye and yeah like Kayleigh said it's sort of part of the job and you have to accept that it is what it is but at the same time we are still people and as much as I think all of us would want to just ignore them to some degree they always affect you or at least make your skin thicker, which is not always a good thing.

22:51Ella, Oriana and Kayleigh, thanks so much to them for sharing their experiences. I'm Andrew Peach and you've been listening to The Documentary from the BBC World Service.