Befriending the man who killed my family

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1:38Daniel Gasangwa:They are the ones who killed my family. Among the recent released prisoners, how many perpetrators did you recognise?

1:46Steven Ngabonziza:I recognised four.

1:47Daniel Gasangwa:In Rwanda, some men convicted over the genocide have now returned home after decades in prison. For those who survived, that return raises difficult questions, not only moral questions, but spiritual ones too. How do you live alongside someone who helped destroy your family?

2:11Steven Ngabonziza:I even paid them a visit in their homes. Someone told me about it and I went to see them and we had a chat. I told them to be strong and assured them that what happened in our country will never happen again. That is what I told them.

2:28Daniel Gasangwa:You said that when you went to see them, you told them to be strong. Why?

2:34Steven Ngabonziza:Because we have forgiven them and that nothing else can happen after forgiveness.

2:39Daniel Gasangwa:You are listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. I am Felenga Kwaya, and for heart and soul, I am in Rwanda, speaking to survivors and perpetrators of the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi and asking what forgiveness means when the people who killed your family come home.

2:59Steven Ngabonziza:Well, they were released towards the end of last year. This year started with them already released from jail.

3:08Daniel Gasangwa:The man you've just heard is Daniel Gasangwa. He's 75 years old and lives in Bugesera, in the eastern province of Rwanda. A bald-haired man, in blue suit without a tie, Daniel is very calm. And when the men who had killed the members of his family were released, he went to find them himself.

3:37Steven Ngabonziza:When I heard the news, I did not believe it. I was like, then? Released? How come? Okay, let me go and see. There was a friend of mine I wanted to see there. A friend who helped us during those difficult times. So, when I arrived, I asked him about them. And he took me where they gathered at a pub and joined bed.

4:04Daniel Gasangwa:To understand why Daniel says he forgave, you first have to understand what he lost. During the genocide, his wife was killed as well as four of his eight children.

4:21Steven Ngabonziza:During the 1994 genocide, things were very difficult. And we were evacuated to Burundi. My children and the mother hid in the house. Others ran from gunfire. When people saw them, they said, look, those are Kasangwa's children. They hit them with holes. And my wife was killed instantly.

4:44Daniel Gasangwa:And yet, alongside the people who murdered, there were also others who hid and protected his family.

4:52Steven Ngabonziza:When I returned from Burundi, I found that Murugatama's family had hidden my children. And they survived. I went with the soldiers and brought back awful children. I had eight children. Only four survived.

5:13Daniel Gasangwa:So for Daniel, the road to forgiveness did not begin with forgetting what had been done. It began with something else. The knowledge that even in the middle of the killing, some people chose to save life.

5:33Steven Ngabonziza:When we returned to Rwanda and reunited with our families, we realized not everyone was black. We also had good preachers who taught us to forgive. They taught us that those who shed blood will face consequences. Because we had realized that some people had done good by saving lives, while others had committed evil, we decided to forgive publicly. We refused to take revenge by shedding blood as they had done.

5:58Daniel Gasangwa:Let me ask you, was forgiveness your own choice or was it because the president asked or it was by pressure?

6:09Steven Ngabonziza:No, there was no pressure to forgive. We forgave this all willingly without coercion. Forgiveness came from my heart.

6:19Daniel Gasangwa:That spirit came from the religious teachings you received. In other words, you would say that your faith enabled you to forgive those who harmed you.

6:29Steven Ngabonziza:Yes, our faith led us to forgive because we realized that what they taught was true. If it was not for God, we too would have perished. But we were no better than those who died.

6:41Daniel Gasangwa:Forgiving those who harmed you, how much effort did it take? What did it take for you to be free?

6:50Steven Ngabonziza:Forgiving required prayer in closed rooms. Pastors helped us pray and sing for God. They would say, we pray for God's people. Have a pure heart. Forgive those who wronged us. Avoid sinning as they did. We pray God to be with them. Bless those in prison. And forgive sincerely, for they may be released. Truly, it came from their heart.

7:15Daniel Gasangwa:Do you have peace now? No more resentment? Or it's just 50-50?

7:23Steven Ngabonziza:Absolutely not. For example, when their families have weddings, they invite us despite having killed our loved ones. They say, we want you at our wedding. Please do not miss it. This Saturday, there is a wedding. My wife, whom I married after the genocide, and our children are all invited. Actually, although he wronged us, but now we are friends. We visit each other, share drinks and food. Children eat and have fun Sometimes he sends me a bunch of bananas to eat Because he knows I used to have banana plantations But now I do not Even though he committed atrocities during the genocide Today he's my friend

8:13Daniel Gasangwa:Did he kill members of your family?

8:16Steven Ngabonziza:Yes, he killed the children of my younger brother All my three younger brothers, their wives and children were killed and he was involved.

8:25Daniel Gasangwa:Now that they continue to return, are you and your people ready to welcome them? I'm ready to welcome them because the government tells that after forgiveness, nothing else matters.

8:38Steven Ngabonziza:I'm forgiven completely. I hold nothing against them. They can live freely.

8:46Daniel Gasangwa:Daniel's thoughts here are remarkable. even hard to hear, but not uncommon in Rwanda. After the genocide, program encouraging reconciliation between communities were set up all over the country. Remorseful perpetrators and survivors were encouraged to live among one another, and Gachata courts were set up to administer community justice at the local level. Bishop John Ruchahana has been a central figure in Rwanda's reconciliation process. When a survivor releases that anger, forgives, it's like releasing a pot of acid from your mind, from your brains. Does it work? Do you have results? Yes, it works.

9:33Daniel Gasangwa:We have men and women who have forgiven the perpetrators and they live together. And actually, if you have a chance to visit your king in the UK, you can ask him, we visited our villages, our reconciliation villages, where perpetrators and survivors of the genocide and repatriated people from Congo and elsewhere lived together in the same village. Is it hard to get to this? Let me tell you, you can imagine and talk about is to understand the agony, the pain, the loss of all the family members. And some of our people in Rwanda have lost their fathers and mothers, and they are alone in this world.

10:20Daniel Gasangwa:That kind of pain, that difficulty, and be confronted by a perpetrator asking forgiveness. It is yes, it is hard. And some of them today are still crying, shed tears, and sometimes we cry with them. It's hard. But you see, you cannot, let me tell you, we cannot surrender to evil. Recently, those perpetrators who have been in prison for more than 30 years are now being released. Yes. And prison fellowship is trying to help them. Can you take us through what you're doing? Actually, we try to rehabilitate these perpetrators who are being released from jail. are Rwandese. They committed crimes. Some of them confessed they are wrong.

11:12Daniel Gasangwa:They confessed to their families. They are going back. But they are coming back home, strangers, because Rwanda has changed. The worldview has changed completely. The attitude of the people, the understanding, the comprehension, the business mind is changed. So they are coming home with some kind of inferiority complex. We need to help them adjust to that change so that they can be productive in society. Is it working? Yes, it is. It will work. It's not over yet. We have still long to go, but we are persistent. That's why we have in Minebomwe unity and reconciliation and resilience. And these children live together.

11:59they don't see

12:01Daniel Gasangwa:they don't see in their own faces but they see Rwandese and friends and dear brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus they love each other and that's reconciliation reconciliation is not necessarily the word reconciliation reconciliation is practical reconciliation is living together in these villages we are talking about we have constructed in the lives we are living together in churches all the work, all the friendship all the intermarriages that are taking place all interrelationships, business sharing partnership in business, all is reconciliation reconciliation to me as a bishop is not the word is not the grades of people is not the amount of money, the poor and the rich no, it's that ability, that test of loving each other and living together and producing together and expect a common destiny together.

13:07Daniel Gasangwa:Bishop Ruchana speaks about reconciliation as something spiritual, but also something difficult, slow and deeply painful. Not everyone's route to forgiveness has looked the same. Stephen Gabonziza is 72. His story begins not in the church, but in fighting.

13:34Felin Gakwaya:We fled to Burundi after my wife and children had been killed. I didn't stay long because a lonely life in a refugee camp was unbearable. I returned to Rwanda to help liberate that country. I captured an enemy soldier from the enemy side of Habiari Manor. I wanted to shoot him. But they stopped me. I said, they are shooting at us and now I have captured him? You tell me to spare him? They told me revenge was forbidden in the army. I handed him over with his weapon and continued fighting. That's where I learned not to take revenge. Later, I was demobilized and given a job as a prison guard.

14:17Felin Gakwaya:In which prison? It was really my prison. I found people there whom I knew. At first, I refused to go, telling the ministry I could not guard a prison that held those who killed my family. I asked to be sent to Yanza instead. They told me Yanza had fewer prisoners, while Ririma had many and needed more manpower. So I had to go to Ririma. Once there, I found those who killed my relatives. My duty was to ensure no prisoner escaped. That was my responsibility.