Bonus: Forgiving a killer - from Lives Less Ordinary

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1:57Bjorn Ihler:This interview takes us to Norway. The man at the centre of this story is an expert in preventing extremism, having survived the country's worst terror attack in recent history. It's a remarkable story about how you can turn the worst thing that ever happened to you into a force for good. you have to acknowledge that the people who hate you are also people and i think that's the starting point for for conversation have you ever been hated to the point where someone wants you dead actually go so far as to point a gun at you and open fire do you think if that happened to you you could say what we've just heard like you have to acknowledge that we're all complex human beings and we're all on these weird journeys of life in some way shape or form and we're all sort of in it together as well it's an extraordinary thing about bjorn isla that he really lives by that mantra that we're all in it together no matter who we are, where we come from, or even what we've done.

3:12Believing that is what nearly got him killed. It's also the reason why he doesn't hate the man who pulled the trigger. There's a lot to unpack there. Let's do it. From the BBC World Service, this is Lives Less Ordinary. I'm Jo Fidgen.

3:34Bjorn is from Norway. He's a respected counter-extremism expert, and he takes the view that the way to deal with violent extremists isn't to ostracise them, but to try to understand them, to care for them even. He's always been political. He joined Norway's Labour Youth Group when he was still at school because when he looked around the neighbourhood where he was growing up in Oslo, which was changing as more immigrants moved in, he felt very strongly that everyone is equal and should have the same opportunities. I think part of it is just exposure. Growing up in that neighborhood and having friends and peers from all around the world of all sorts of different faiths, most of whom had, you know, mothers who cooked better foods than what I would get at home.

4:21Don't let your mother hear that. She'll be fine, I think. But, you know, to me there was beauty and strength in that. You used the word beauty. which really stands out because that's kind of more about poetry, isn't it, than politics? To some extent. I mean, like I am to some extent an artist, right? Like I studied music, I studied theatre, etc. And for me, that's become like a very important lens through which to view the world. And I find that in people coming together and people sharing their experiences and contributing in different ways to kind of shaping each other's lives and perspectives.

5:09And I think, you know, there's immense beauty in that. But not all Norwegians felt the same way about immigration. And one of them, Anders Breivik, was working himself into a fury. He adopted an extremist far-right position and wrote a manifesto calling for armed struggle against multiculturalism. Fifteen years ago, in July 2011, both Bjorn and Breivik travelled to Utoya Island in a lake a short drive out of Oslo. Bjorn was 20 at the time and studying performing arts in England. He was heading to a summer camp of labour youth activists. It's very classic southern Norwegian countryside, I would say.

5:57It's a massive lake and it has these small islands, one of which is Uta Island, which has been owned by the Labour Youth Party since forever. It's really a magnificent place in many ways. And lots of trees. There's always lots of trees. It's a beautiful place. Yeah. It was unthinkable that someone would seek to destroy that piece. Until that point, a Breivik was unthinkable. The 22nd of July was a Friday. In the middle of the afternoon, a van exploded in Oslo outside the Prime Minister's office, killing eight people. A man dressed as a police officer and carrying a pistol was seen walking away from the van and getting into a car.

6:45It was Breivik. He drove the 30 miles or so to the lake and boarded a ferry for Utoa Island, where Bjorn and his friends and fellow activists had just found out about the explosion. So after the gathering where we were told about the explosion in Oslo, the group from Oslo, which was kind of my cohort there, decided to gather out in the campsite to try to coordinate in figuring out whether anyone we knew or anyone's families, etc., had been affected by the explosion. but then as we were kind of doing that we started hearing load popping sounds and it sounded like possibly fireworks or something like that but we can see down to where the ferry was from where we were we were in the campsite which is sort of the island is shaped kind of like a volcano with a crater in the middle and the crater is where the campsite is so you have this ridge that blocks blocks the view down there and so we heard the loud sounds and I thought maybe someone who doesn't know what's been happening in Oslo are just having a celebration or something, which would still be unusual, but it could happen.

7:51And then as we were trying to figure out what was going on, we saw a man in dark clothes walk across the ridge, and some people ran towards him. And I believe in hindsight that that was because he was wearing a police uniform, but there and then that didn't quite register with me. And the people who ran towards him, he lifted a gun and shot straight down. Did you see that? Yeah, so I saw them being shot, like, you know, not very far from where I was. And immediately me and my group kind of turned around and ran into the forest surrounding the campsite and laid down flat on the ground, basically.

8:35And then he went on to do other things for a while while I tried to figure out what was going on. So one of the first things I did was call my father to see if he had any idea, which I don't think he did. But he basically told me to stay hidden and not be a hero and all of the classic things. But he was on the phone with me for quite a bit there. Then I made my way down to the track that goes around the island and met some friends of mine who were there. and we started telling people to try to hide and to cover up like the party's colors are red right so people had red t-shirts and stuff which are very visible in the forest so we try to encourage people to to figure out ways of covering that etc and find places to hide and then as my friend and I was doing that we found a little kid who his father was one of the security guards on the island and we picked up that child and then i hid with the child between like some bushes essentially and he he was obviously um in quite a state of panic and all while this was happening we heard like the popping sounds from around the island it was hard to determine where it was from or or who many shooters there were because on the other side of the lake there's a massive kind of cliff wall and there was the echo from that as well.

10:06So we were kind of in uncertainty about that. How old was this child who you were looking after now? He was eight years old. How did you keep him calm? I laid on top of him and held him down for a lot of it. And just by trying to talk with him and distract him through that, And then we did that for a while. And then a group of people came running through where we were hiding. And we realized that the shooter was not very far from us. So we joined that group and ran along the track again. And it was 15 people or so. And we moved incredibly quietly for being that many people. and we got to a place on the track where Bravig had executed a group of people who had been hiding and we couldn't run on the track because there was a pile of dead bodies there and I kind of blacked out after that but somehow we ended up out on the southern tip of the island.

11:18You don't remember moving from that point to the southern tip, it's just all a blur? Yeah, that's kind of a blur. But in that group as well was another kid who was the descendant of another security guard. So I took kind of the two kids and we ended up on that southern tip of the island. And from there, we could see like the longest line of blue flashing lights imaginable. So we knew that there were ambulances and police there. At this point, I think about an hour had passed, right? And we saw a helicopter in the air. So we assumed that that was a police helicopter. It turns out later that I was the national broadcaster in Norway.

11:55He had been quicker to get a helicopter than what the police had managed to be. And there were boats on the water picking up people who had started swimming from the island. So we thought that this is coming to an end of some sort. And I can call my father again. And then as I was speaking with him, this man in a police uniform came out from the bushes behind us and said he was from the police and that they had caught the bad guy. and then he lifted his gun and started shooting at our group. How far away was he? I don't know, like eight meters maybe? Not very far at all. So I took the boys and we jumped in the water.

12:35My phone connection with my father broke, so the last thing he heard was me repeating that the police officer was there and said that they had caught the bad guy. And I made my way a little bit out in the lake and I was wearing a massive woolen jumper because summer in Norway is pretty cold. And so I sank and then managed to pull the jumper off and stand back up in the water, looking into Watchland and realized that Rebic was taking aim at me. I kind of remember the moment of accepting that this was the end. And I've described it in the past as well as kind of feeling like my soul left my body.

13:14and he took aim and fired and missed and I fell over in the water and then he moved on to other targets but the boys and I managed to make our way kind of around a little edge of the island and hide underneath some bushes that were hanging out over the water meanwhile he was shooting at the people that we have been with and then he turned around and walked back up on the island and we stayed in the water under the bushes and he was arrested pretty immediately after that by the police who had finally made their way onto the island but we didn't know that and so after a while we climbed back up onto the island because the water was like 14 degrees or so so pretty cold and there was a wild one we didn't hear any gunshots right so we were sitting on some some rocks on the lakeside when you know again someone in the police uniform came out of the woods and told us they had caught the bad guy but thankfully that was the actual police did you believe it was the police at the time not really right so i think both me and other survivors have described how difficult it was to to actually trust the police at that point right because we had just had the experience of someone in the police uniform shooting at us so that was a challenge but he was somewhat understanding of that as well and told us that we could identify who was the real police by the fact that the real police were all wearing helmets while the shooter was not and so giving us a little bit of what we needed to know who to trust and they had to secure the island and And then they also coordinated the evacuation of people who had been wounded, which thankfully I had not.

15:06And so we were there for a while. You had not been wounded, but you had been shot at. Yeah. At close range. I mean, you said when that happened that you felt your soul leave your body. Yeah. When did it come back? I'm not sure. I think like over the last 15 years like certainly been been able to recoup part of that but there's also like part of like it's a defining moment in my life of course and that is so far away when you're like 20 and in uni right and I think it was kind of a pretty brutal transition into recognizing that like this happens and life is short but like obviously i survived and from that have been also kind of very consciously trying to rebuild um a life that has that as part of the luggage but also is able to kind of capture like the value of living a life as well uh after it so which is a challenge but still is important.

16:24Yes. And those two little boys? Yeah. They survived? You helped them survive? Yeah. And unfortunately their fathers did not. Their fathers were the two security guards on the island and among the first people to get killed. So yeah, that was difficult for them to deal with I think but at the same time uh very i'm very happy that they survived as well and then i was speaking to a friend a couple of weeks ago about this and it's odd to think that like now they are in their 20s they are older now than i was then right and uh yeah time is an interesting factor in this as well yeah you say it's been a very long process understandably to to find the value in life and the beauty in life again yeah what about immediately afterwards how does an experience like that settle in your body so i was in very deep deep shock right like like everyone um and so So I think the first few days after the attack, I was just in kind of immediate emergency response mode.

17:45And like we had gatherings downtown in Oslo of the survivors at a secure location to kind of just meet with other people who had been through the same thing. But also that was where we got news from the hospitals of who had passed away. and someone was like loading pallets into a van or something and i just disappeared from the street right like i was uh i suddenly found myself like hiding behind some trash bins in like a backyard somewhere because of the noise of that right um so there's kind of like that sort of immediate reactions that like the body just carried with it uh for for quite some time like you can intellectualize it all you want but ultimately like there's something pretty deep in like the instinctual brain where like learning learning to feel safe still in in some of those situations has been a massive challenge given the trauma what made you just i think a week after the attack pick up the manifesto that brevik had written before he went on his killing expedition why did you want to read that?

19:01First of all reading the text of the manifesto and trying to understand who Breivik was and what drove someone to do something like this wanting to understand why this had happened was a big component of that and the manifesto doesn't really help a whole lot in making you any wiser to that because it's fairly standard far right nonsense in many ways and a lot of this like copy paste from other sources and then there's like a section that is a interview with brevik by brevik which is a pretty surreal reading in in some ways and then the other component that i was also trying to understand how someone who grew up in the outskirts of oslo brevik is a little bit more than a decade older than me like we had fairly similar lives in many ways like how does someone who's so similar to me or like how does one of us become so different from us and that was something that i i wanted to understand as part of my healing process as well i mean it's an extraordinary response isn't it to sort of take a a rational mind to this situation when you're dealing with what you're dealing with i mean i wonder i don't know if it was a rational mind that did that right like and and i think like there's there's so many different ways of dealing with trauma like that like there there is no right way and people are going to respond in so many different ways um but i'm not sure like that was a healthy way of responding even like it was my journey and and how i dealt with it but i certainly wouldn't necessarily recommend it to anyone else right so would you recommend it to your 20 year old self would you would you go down that route again uh in in hindsight i would probably not recommend it to my 20 year old self but also having been my 20 year old self i know that i wouldn't have listened to that recommendation when i was my 20 year old self right so so so i would probably have done the same thing irrespective of what some like 34 year old version of myself was telling me What about your parents?

21:15What were they saying to you at that time? How were they trying to help you? They were also in shock, I think, but also very supportive and very much trying to help me deal with this in the way that felt right to me. And so I think that was good. and I've always had a relationship with them where I've been able to bounce ideas with them, discuss philosophy, theology, all of these big ideas with them. But also for them, I think it was very difficult, of course, to see their son go through something like that. And for them to understand that I was still a 20-year-old man and needed to like live my life and get back to that and then you know be a student and do the weird things that students sometimes do uh that's right right like so so it was also a process of kind of similar to when i first moved out and kind of redoing that in terms of just like learning that a parent child relationship is different at different stages in life and like this was a different stage in life.

22:32I mean, you talk about wanting to get back to life as a student. You did, you went back to the UK, didn't you, to Liverpool to pick up your studies. How do you make that adjustment to go from the summer you've had to a new term with a bunch of students who've, you know, just good lives have carried on as normal, and they're doing all the normal things and having fun? And how do you fit back into that? Certainly no one in my class and peer group thought of it as a normal summer the news of of what happened in Norway had carried quite far and obviously like my friends from uni were very aware of what had happened and what happened to me and met me with a great deal of understanding the other component of that was the university being enormously supportive as well so they put in place things like a psychologist that had actual experience working with, in particular, veterans, but also survivors of terrorism from Northern Ireland and other parts of the world.

23:37And so that is quite distinct from the experience that a lot of people back home in Norway had where the system as such had never been exposed to terrorism in the first place. And so the psychological support system, et cetera, wasn't in place for that, while at the university in the UK, it was in a drawer somewhere, but there was a plan for how to deal with students going through something like that. That also comes down to Liverpool being an incredibly friendly and welcoming city. People bond together in times of trouble there in unique ways, I think. I love Liverpool in so many ways, right?

24:18So how soon after this did you go back to university? It started the new term like a couple of months later? Yeah, no, it was a start of the uterine, so early to mid-September, I think. Okay. It's pretty sudden, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Like, in hindsight, it looks more sudden than it felt at the time as well. I don't know. Time works in really funny ways when you're going through times of trouble, right? And some of that comes down to a lot of that time in Norway was also like going to the funerals of friends and and things like that and like that time is just so packed with impressions and like everything happening and just the media element of it as well where you know suddenly being on cnn as like a 20 year old kid from norway is it's quite an an experience and kind of this being a national trauma and all of the kind of public national responses but also this being uh international news story so yeah you talk about being a national trauma the norwegian prime minister came out at the time and said we need more democracy more openness and more love um which is quite a response yeah i think it's it's a good response it's good rhetorics at least i think ultimately that helped kind of tie norway together in a common response to to some of this like for i think everyone in norway this was a very personal trauma as well as national trauma.

26:08Right.

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26:46So as you say, once the trial started, Anna's Bravest trial, you were back and forth between Liverpool and Oslo. So to give evidence, but also to hear Breivik make his statement. Again, is this the same impulse as getting, you know, your desire to read the manifesto straight after? You want to hear why he did this, why he wanted to kill you, basically. basically yeah and i think like both the manifesto and the trial like left me reasonably disappointed by not actually figuring that out but the first time i saw him in court was in the fall of 2011 and i remember being fairly nervous because at that point brevik had been built up in my mind as this monster but and the media as well had been described very much that way and then i went into the courtroom and saw this kind of loser and like shackles at that point it was very evident to me as well like he he poses no threat to me anymore um and i think that was a moment of relief as well i i think that was very healing a loser in handcuffs i think you called him yeah i think that's a still a good descriptor of him i think so how how were you feeling going going into court that day i was nervous obviously it's intimidating to be in like a legal context in the first place uh for i think anyone but also like being there sitting with Breivik on the bench next to me.

28:40When you say on the bench next to you, do you mean literally next to you? Well, there were a few meters in between us, but not very, very far. And so, yeah, it was challenging, but also kind of gave a sense of having been heard and having been seen both by Breivik and by the court. That was empowering and important as well. He got the maximum. sentence 21 years um some people were calling for him to have the death penalty for the death penalty to be reintroduced in in Norway yeah what did you want I wanted him to get the harshest sentence of the law but not for us to change the law and so I kind of got my will there I think fundamentally what he wanted to do was change the nature of who we were and I very defiantly did not want to give him the power to do that and i think we kind of stood our ground and met the challenge and the test there as a society and it's going to be interesting in six years when the 21 year sentence is up to see how the courts will be grappling with at that point but what will likely happen is that he will be continuously held in prison for likely the rest of his life right like as long as he still constitutes a threat to society there is room in the legal system for keeping him incarcerated and so that is very much the likely outcome you said it's important to you that Norway shouldn't change in the way that Bravuk wanted it to change but it also feels like it was very important to you that he should not change fundamentally who you are as a result of what he did to you no i think that was that was also very important yeah um like i wanted to continue on my trajectory continue my life and do the things that i wanted to do it sounds like it's very you to want to understand and to want to get to the bottom of things and to make things better so this is what you do when the trial is over you devote yourself to understanding what drives people to extremism and terrorism yeah and how you can stop that from happening um and the way the way you went about doing this must have taken so much courage to actually go and meet people who had had extremist, dangerous extremist views and talk to them.

31:23Were you worried about doing that? Oh, absolutely. That was scary, right? No need to hide how terrifying that was. But yeah, it still felt like kind of a necessary step in my own dealing with this because I hadn't gotten what I wanted from the manifesto nor from the court. And so going out there and meeting people who had been in similar places to Breivik became kind of a better way for me of understanding how people ended up there. And having those conversations with former neo-Nazis was one element, but also having those conversations with former IRA members, having that with former Islamists, extremists, and extremists of all sorts of different groups and ideologies over the years has been important in that.

32:20But I think more important perhaps than understanding their path of becoming violent extremists in the first place has been understanding how they stopped being that, how they turned their lives around, like the commonality in possibility of turning your life around and heal and become a productive member of society like there's power in that I think let's talk about the first former extremist that you meet um yeah you're 21 at the time yeah something like that okay not your typical 21 22 year old i'm guessing quite a kind of old head on your shoulders um yeah probably um take us to that day your where you are how you're feeling and who you're going to meet so it was in london and like the institute for studio dialogue they invited me into london a few days early and set up a meeting between me and the former extremists and i got to kind of choose the circumstances a lot for that so for those who have been to london there's a massive bookstore near piccadilly circus that has like a restaurant and me being the nerd that i am like there's no place that feels calmer and safer to me than a bookstore and so i had the organizers set up a meeting in the restaurant at the waterstones and so it was me and one of the team members from isd accompany us and facilitate that but i remember being terrified of that meeting because like i knew that he had held the same worldviews as this man who had tried to kill me like a year before and so that was terrifying it turned out to be a fairly regular like some people having a chat over coffee in restaurants at waterstones right a fairly regular chat um well this has become a fairly regular chat type thing for me.

34:29I might recognize that that's not a fairly typical chat for most people. But like at this point, it's just like another meeting with like a former extremist. But at the time, it was not another meeting. It was your first and so much resting on it. So much trust, I think, from the sound of things to believe that people could change that there was a lot resting on this meeting yeah like it showed me that people do actually carry deep regret and want a need to try to restore or try to work towards kind of a better future even after having been in these very hateful communities by the time you met him he changed his views how did he feel about meeting you?

35:20Oh, I think he was more terrified of meeting me than I was of meeting him. I think he carried so much regret and so much pain from the pain he had caused others. And I think that was a life-changing moment for him as well in many ways, right? And a life-changing moment for you? Yeah, in some ways, a life-changing moment for me as well. But more, I think, demonstrating to myself that I could overcome that fear and see a human for a human and a changed man for a changed man you know there's power in that as well it wasn't just that moment was it I mean you went on to meet many other former extremists from from the far right from the far left you've met so many people I mean do you know how many over the years I've lost count.

36:15It's a lot. What have you learned about how they became radicalized in the first place? Is there a common element? There's a few common elements. And I think the most significant one is the search for a sense of being valued. And whether that value is driven through the camaraderie of being in an extremist group and the sense of belonging there or whether that is derived from posing a physical threat to someone those are both ways of having your value and presence recognized by someone else and those are like two ways in which that manifests in pretty much, I think, every former extremist I've spoken to in different ways.

37:10And the way in which I view violent extremism is very much as the violent denial of diversity. But then ultimately, you still end up having kebabs at the end of the night after going out drinking. There's so much influence that we take and that enriches our lives in such profound ways. but also like it's really hard to hate your neighbor over time right like you if you repeatedly learn that like people who you try to hate are generally not hating you back um like it becomes increasingly ever increasingly hard to hate them in the first place um i think that's something we see see repeatedly as well okay so so you're saying if you encounter hate don't respond with hate because that will only fuel it but responding with love or even just not hate it's very hard i don't think you have to respond with love as much like you have to respond with the recognition of the humanity of the other person right like you don't have to love thy enemy um you have to acknowledge that the people who hate you are also people um and i think that's the starting point for for conversation like you have to acknowledge that we're all complex human beings and we're all on on these weird journeys of life in some way shape or form and we're all sort of in it together as well um so yeah i've read a quote from you where you said you care for brevik in the way that you care for any human being yeah i think like fundamentally like at the end of the day like brevik is another human being um and should be treated you know humanely um and that's also like one of our greatest tools i think and so it's it's more about like how do we break cycles of violence rather than contribute to or continue them as well i wonder how people who went through what you went through you know specifically that day but also maybe other people who've survived terror attacks or lost people in terror attacks um how they respond to you when you when you say things like that do you find that people kind of say yes you're right or or do people say don't try to understand him he remains the monster that was talked about in the in the media at the time i think there's so many different paths right and everyone's gonna be dealing with this in their own ways and ultimately like the ways that work for them to like have a dignified life after something like that and i think like the gut reaction immediately after the attack was basically to to tell me i was wrong uh on a lot of this uh from other survivors and and the families that were bereaved and and stuff like that but um more and more of them like as time has progressed have kind of come around to my approach to a greater extent which you know is have you lost friends over this yeah you have yeah so um i think like in the in the early days most of my social circles back in Norway was the Labour Youth Party in many ways and because of my approach versus like kind of the more common approach in some ways like it became difficult to maintain friendships with people who kind of fundamentally disagreed in many ways about like how we should deal with Breivik but also how we should deal with like the shared trauma as well as the personal trauma of having been through what we we went through but also still had other friends and you know other healthy relationships in in my life and and i hope they did as well and like there's people i'm on talking terms again with at least uh now that uh i wasn't for a little while there talking of healthy relationships you are you are married yeah tell us about your wife i think she works in the same field you work together on countering extremism and encouraging diversity yeah she's she's an amazing woman also for for her 2011 was was a big year she's from libya and so uh that was the year of uh the spring of dignity in much of north africa and and with the protests both in libya and the subsequent killing of gaddafi and and and kind of the liberation of the country that led into years of civil war right um so also comes from from kind of background of of all of that but we met in turkey and then immediately clicked and joined forces in a lot of our work you you talked right at the beginning about about you know searching for beauty yeah so where do you find beauty these days i find it a lot in people so i'm very happy and privilege that i get to still travel around the world and meet with amazing people who are working for kind of the betterment of both themselves and their communities but then i also find a lot of beauty in nature and i live now in the middle of the forest in a very similar circumstance to like utah island like we're on the lakeside there's islands on the lake etc it gets a little bit crazy sometimes with all of the traveling around in the world and all of those things but like sitting down by the lake and just looking and enjoying and observing how alive the forest is are the moments when I like actually feel the most at peace and the most safe as well and I think that's that's a good place to be.

43:32Bjorn Isler he and his wife run the counter-extremism organization, the Khalifa Isla Institute. My thanks to him and to you for listening to Lives Less Ordinary. The producer today was May Cameron. I'm Jo Fidgen. Our editor is Manazza Khan. We are going to spend August in a much happier mood, celebrating love in all its glory. We'll be finding it in unexpected places and overcoming tremendous odds. Do make sure you're following Lives Less Ordinary so you don't miss out on some summer loving. Maybe you also have a love story to share. If you and your partner met in unusual circumstances or had to navigate some crazy twists and turns along the way, do get in touch.

44:19You can reach us at liveslessordinary at bbc.co.uk or message us on WhatsApp. The number is plus 44-330-678-2784. If that was too quick, don't worry. You'll also find it in the show notes. We might even feature your story in one of our episodes.