Charlie Kirk and free speech

0:05Hello, I'm Rahul Tandon. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC OS Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences and their views. This time, people discuss free speech in the wake of Charlie Kirk's death. Right-wing US commentator Charlie Kirk was celebrated by his many fans as a champion of free speech. Others, though, saw it differently, accusing him of spreading hate. Since he was killed less than a fortnight ago at a university rally in Utah, the two sides are further apart than ever. The whole idea of free speech and what it means is in the balance.

0:48Some Americans on the left believe views like Kirk's, including his strong rejection of gay marriage, criticism of Islam and opposition to abortion, cross a line and are dangerous. But this week, we hear from people who take a different view, including some who predict a bleak future for their country if the right to debate controversial and contested topics is threatened. Democracy is built on the foundation of free and fair public discourse in the public square, and an attack on Charlie or anybody else for that fact is an attack on all of us. And if we no longer have the ability or feel comfortable expressing our opinions in public or at all, that is a loss.

1:33The conversations you'll hear this week are with Charlie Kirk supporters, but also with people who defend the right of anyone with strong views to speak out. Carrie Bartholomew is from Mums for America, an organisation that promotes Christian family values. Porter Lafiba and Tiana Lau are two students at Utah Valley University. All three were in the audience when Charlie Kirk was killed. Tiana first. I know that he was very controversial, but I still believe that he debated with students from various opinions, and it was peaceful. I mean, he didn't intend to cause any direct harm. Some may not agree with his opinions, but he made it clear to others that he has his stance and anyone can go up to him and prove him wrong.

2:26And so I believe that anyone should watch him and see what they think for themselves, see the facts, and then hear both sides of people's opinions and decide for themselves what they want to think. and I feel like he was really good at expressing that. Porter, some people say he was the most influential figure when it came to youngsters and politics in the US of his generation. How did he attract people where others had failed? Well, I think a lot of times when you think of a politician, you think of an old guy who has way too much money, who doesn't know what to do with it. But, I mean, Charlie Kirk, he's a young guy.

3:03He has a young wife and family. He's somebody who didn't actually go to college, but he made this fortune himself, right? And so I think he's just a lot more relatable as far as my generation goes. But let's be clear here, Porter. He appealed to some people in your generation. There were a lot of others, young people as well, who didn't like his views, weren't there? Oh, 100%. And being somebody that agrees with a lot of what he says and somebody that disagrees with a lot of things that he says, I think regardless of political views, I think it's important that people are talking about these matters because when people stop talking is when problems start happening.

3:37I think just him being shut down and being shot at a freedom of speech rally says a lot about our country. Carrie, what did you make of some of the comments that he made? You took your 17-year-old son there, didn't you, Liam? You're black. He made some pretty strong comments about black people. You know, I teach analytical thinking to high schoolers. And I tell them that truth never fears being questioned. So what we do is we look. We say, OK, he made these points. Do we have any evidence to the other side? Which one makes more sense? How do we analyze this? And I appreciated that. But were you offended by what he said?

4:20No, I'm not offended because I seek out truth and I don't identify with my race. I'm getting a lot of people right now who are sending me messages saying, you know, Charlie Kirk hates black people. He would have hated you. You're a black woman. You're, you know, who picked you? All that stuff. And it's like that's not who he was, though. And you can project all you want on a person, but who they are as an individual matters. I want to get a sense you know if you like Charlie Kirk and your friends don't do you have lots of discussions about that oh for sure yes since I do consider myself independent I have a lot of friends with differing opinions some far left some far right and one thing that has brought a huge concern upon me because I was really sad and in that moment and of course it's a human life nonetheless Nevertheless, I was distraught about what happened.

5:15But still, some of my friends seem to be celebrating his death. To me, it doesn't matter what side of the political party you are on. I don't agree that we should be celebrating anyone's death at all. I think that we should be respectful. Porter, what does this tell us about the US? Because, you know, if you go on social media, there's some pretty unpleasant comments about Charlie Kirk, even after he has died. It seems for people outside to paint a country that's incredibly divided. I mean, you know, we have this belief that everybody should have freedom of speech. And when one person's shut down for probably having arguably one of the greatest platforms for freedom of speech, what is it saying about our real views internally, right?

6:01Porter Lefebvre, Tianna Lau and Carrie Bartholomew. Charlie Kirk was one of the highest profile conservative activists and media personalities in the US, promoting his views through his Turning Point USA events on college campuses and reaching millions more people on social media. In the aftermath of his death, my colleague Rob Young asked two other political commentators in the US about free speech and online hate. William He is a student and activist who runs Dream for America, which describes itself as a turning point USA for the left. Mika Watson is a conservative and a pop culture commentator based in Washington, D.C.

6:47She spoke first. Oh, we definitely get a lot of hate online. And then especially for someone like me, I get a lot of hate because I am a person of colour. So when you are Hispanic, when you are black, you tend to get it even more so because they already have preconceived biases of what you're supposed to think, what your thoughts are supposed to be, what side of the aisle you're supposed to be on. William, is it the same for you? Yeah, I'm deeply concerned about what's happening in this country and around the world. We are America. We are supposed to be a beacon for the world, for freedom and democracy and opportunity.

7:26And the fact that this is happening now is very troubling, and I am very concerned about the future of our democracy. I mean, overall, I think political violence writ large is unacceptable in any circumstance and is a cancer on our country. And I think extremism on either side will be our downfall. And if we fail to change course, we are headed for a very dark road ahead of radicalism and extremism and violence. You know, at this moment in time, I think both sides need to turn down the temperature a little bit. I think it's not okay for anyone on the left to celebrate and to mock Charlie's death.

8:00At the same time, it's not acceptable for anyone on the right to foment fear or to call any Democrat or liberal domestic terrorist and that they should be hung and sought out in the streets. I think neither kind of discourse is acceptable. I do think, though, you can separate the art from the artist, right? Charlie was a husband, a father, a son. He was loved by friends and family. He is a human, a child of God. At the same time, you know, I think he has made a career and has profited off of division and hate and a lot of inflammatory language. So as much as I disagree with his statements and his views and his beliefs, I can still empathize with the fact that he was a father and he was a son and he was loved by many.

8:37So I think that we have to forgive and we have to find a way to see the human in each other. And I hope one day we can get back to a country where we can be that once again. Now, Charlie Kirk was not an elected politician. He was primarily an activist and influencer like you two. I wonder, Mika, whether you feel safe doing what you were doing. Well, I definitely feel safe because I already have, you know, those type of protections around me. Individuals on the law enforcement side and I never go anywhere where I don't know what I'm going to be getting into. So that's one thing, you know. Is it worth it for that?

9:18You mean that you're not living a full free life there, are you? Well, no, unfortunately, and this was before the issue with Charlie Kerr, the situation that just happened, because the discourse that we've been having, it has on both sides been ratcheted up. But it seems like the left has been saying, well, you cannot say these things because they hurt my feelings, whether or not they're true. And when we start trying to silence truth over the fact that it may cause someone's feelings to be hurt, someone may get upset, we start to get into a dangerous territory because now we're silencing what we could actually fix, what we could actually come to a medium consensus on, all because we want to protect feelings over facts.

10:10William, are you worried? Have you had any experiences where you thought what should have been a civil political debate might turn ugly? Yeah, and I'll also push back on what Mika said just now. But to answer your question, yeah, I think so. I think it's not just political violence, but also gun violence as well. I mean, there's also a lot to say that right after Charlie was assassinated, you also had another school shooting at a high school in Colorado right after that. So I think we're dealing with much more than just a political violence problem. I think we're dealing with a cultural and violence problem.

10:41And I think I am fearful. Democracy is built on the foundation of free and fair public discourse in the public square. And an attack on Charlie or anybody else for that fact is an attack on all of us. And if we no longer have the ability or feel comfortable expressing our opinions in public or at all, that is a loss for our democracy as a whole. Now, to push back on Mika's point, I think it's not just a mere kind of, oh, you know, feelings are hurt. But I think sometimes right wing commentator, I guess I should say maybe far right commentators would verge into the denial of people's existence or maybe pushing a couple of too many buttons about trying to vilify certain groups of people.

11:21I think when it gets to that point, I think people have a right to be upset. Well, people do have a right to be upset. People have the right to say what they want to say. But where it comes in on the other side of the aisle is that we are also being told that we have to agree with what someone else wants something to be called, what someone else wants something to be named. And we're even being told that we shouldn't see things for what they are. And if you do not, then you're a fascist, then you're racist, then you're a bigot, then you're a sexist. And these things can exacerbate on the ends of, well, if they don't agree, they must be dangerous.

12:03And I think that's what got Charlie Kirk and the unfortunate events that happened because there are people that are taking this to the extreme when you put out rhetoric like that from the left. Yeah, I think what's most important, I think, is we need to get to a place in this country where we can have the urge to not veer towards the most extreme option during our discourse and have the courage to have nuance and have details and debate substance. Because I think too often, right, what is the most flashy thing? What's the most inflammatory thing, especially pushed by a lot of people in media or our elected officials and so on?

12:42For example, I mean, right after Charlie was shot, one of the first things that you will hear from right wing commentators is that Democrats are behind this and that we are verging on civil war and that we should try all Democratic leaders as domestic terrorists. And that's before we knew any semblance of information about the shooter. I'm just saying that, you know, we need to be more disciplined in how we talk about politics, more careful in how we choose our words and having the courage to be substantive and debate different issues. And the other thing I'll ask also, if I can just push back on that last point again, just like you said, someone from the right side of media.

13:21But if you go to the left side of media right when this happened, MSNBC, there was a reporter there who got fired just moments afterwards because he's already saying Charlie Kirk is divisive. Charlie Kirk is this. And this is why this is happening without knowing anything. This is moments afterwards. So again, it goes to show that there's no empathy. There's nothing there that says, hey, let's take a moment and slow down. This is a human being. And that has been expressed in academia on these campuses, because a lot of the liberal campuses are pushing these ideas that the right is dangerous because they don't believe what you believe.

14:01And if we're going as far as saying that, then there is no space for public discourse. There is no space to even come to the middle because the other side is saying that they're wrong. Don't listen to them. Silence them. Look, I think there's a problem with extremism on both sides here. You have a lot of people on the far left, and then you have an ascendant far right wing as well on the right that I think are driving a lot of the division here. And I think at the end of the day here, I think most Americans, regular people, have a lot more common with each other than they have with, say, the political commentators on Twitter or Elon Musk or whoever.

14:38And I think most people aren't really thinking about this kind of thing on a daily basis. And I think a lot of people are very tired of this kind of division. I think everyone is hungry for some sort of change. I think at the end of the day, too, if anything, no matter your beliefs, I think we can all agree that violence is bad and that everyone deserves the right to speak freely without the threat of violence and that regardless of politics, we can agree that something has to change here and that this is not tenable. Political activists William He and Mika Watson... I'm Rahul Tandon and this is BBC OS Conversations from the BBC World Service.

15:17In our last conversation, William and Mika mentioned people in the US who've been fired for social media posts about Charlie Kirk's death. Pilots, medics and teachers are among those who've been sanctioned by employers for comments deemed to be offensive. It's given people who disagree about what free speech means and where its limits lie plenty more to fight over. In the last few days, late night talk show host Jimmy Kimmel was suspended after accusing Donald Trump and his allies of capitalising on Kirk's death and using it to score political points. Our final conversation, recorded before Kimmel was taken off air by his network, is with three young Christian women who were dedicated supporters of Charlie Kirk.

16:05We talked about the sackings and about Kirk's views more generally. Savannah Stone, Naomi Speakman and Jordan Goodman. What drew me to Turning Point USA was because of how outspoken they were. A lot of people like to separate church and state, but as Christians, we know that we have to put God first in everything, and Charlie was not afraid to do that. And I feel like that's another way that he equipped so many young people. People need to know you are Christian by your behavior, not just your words. So if you're out here and you're at these marches and you think you're marching for civil rights and yet people are cursing God and they're advocating for killing children in the womb and they're anti-freedom and they're destroying people's property.

16:53Sorry to interrupt you. You may not like those views, but don't they have the same right that you have under free speech to express them, Jordan? Oh, they absolutely have the same right. And I have the same right to call it what it is. A lot of this behavior is demonic. So I have that right and they have that right. The problem is, is they try to take away my right for saying that. Yeah, I will add to that. This is Savannah. Look, everybody is protected by the First Amendment. They have the right to free speech. But when speech becomes violence and speech becomes celebrating the murder of someone, I think we need to have some boundaries around exactly what free speech is allowed.

17:30And the other thing is, can I interrupt you there? What are those boundaries? So if somebody didn't like Charlie Kirk and said we didn't like his views and we've seen people lose their jobs, haven't we, for saying things about him, do you think that's correct? Or what should happen to them? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been working behind the scenes to get people fired from their jobs because I have a social media following. I've had people send in submissions. I actually think that that's the least thing that they deserve. We can't exist in society with people who celebrate murder, because if you celebrate murder, you're fully capable of committing murder.

18:06Well, is it celebrating or some of the people who've lost their jobs have just criticized the views that he held and they didn't like those views? And I'm confused by what free speech means. And isn't free speech free to say? And didn't Charlie Kirk say himself people should be allowed to say outrageous things? That was one of his most famous quotes, wasn't it, Savannah? There's a line, though. So the people that are disagreeing with him politically, those people aren't getting fired. The people that are getting fired are the ones who are literally saying the most heinous things about his death or making T-shirts of him getting shot in the neck and making fun of it or dancing on TikTok and saying, I'm so glad that he was shot in front of his wife and children.

18:45That's where we have to have a line. You can disagree with him politically. Can I give you an example here? Here's somebody who lost their job. This is what he said. I truly don't care if you think it's insensitive or poor timing to decline to respect an evil man who died. They're not celebrating his murder. They just say we can't respect him. What do you think should happen to that person? Again, I think that they should lose their job. That is a form of celebrating. That is a form of saying, I'm glad this man was murdered. What about you, Naomi, on this particular issue? I don't necessarily think people should lose their jobs for political beliefs.

19:21Obviously, it's different when they're declaring there should be some sort of violent act, but I believe that we're going against what Charlie Kirk stood for when we're saying, well, you're going to lose your job because you said this about Charlie Kirk and his family. That's rescinding free speech, so we have to toe the line between making sure people aren't insurrecting violence while also ensuring that we don't infringe on free speech like Charlie Kirk stood for. Hey, it's Jordan. I really want to cut in right here, actually. So sorry to you, Naomi, but I am fully in agreement with what Savannah is saying.

19:56We are not restricting free speech. This is the natural consequences of society when you spew out your hate, right? You are allowed to say what you want to say. And just like the leftists always say, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of consequences. We're not going to create legislation and make laws against what you can say, but society has the right to ostracize you. Employers don't have to let you represent them when you're sitting here celebrating death of a father, of a husband, of a Christian man who was violently killed in front of his entire family. So, no, I don't believe that we should make laws against it.

20:35I think we should actually make free speech more free. I need to expose who these people are in my community, in my society that are so OK with saying this stuff. And you will face the consequences. I wonder, though, if you want to try and build a country where people are willing to listen to each other, if you're going to make it difficult for people to express views you don't like, how is America going to do that? Again, a political view is completely different from saying, I'm so happy that a father, husband and Christian man died and was shot in front of his family. OK, but there are. Yeah, we do differentiate between that.

21:15But there are a lot of people who feel at the moment that they've said things about Charlie Kirk. They didn't like his views, particularly when it came to black people, if it came to guns. And that when they're expressing those views, they are also getting a lot of hate as well for what they're saying. And how do you bring the U.S. together when it looks from the outside now to be so divided? And Charlie Kirk, whether you liked him or not, what he always wanted, wasn't it, was dialogue? Well, from what I'm seeing, the people that are calling Charlie Kirk racist and homophobic and misogynistic, they listen to maybe a seven second clip on Instagram or TikTok of him and not an entire debate.

21:56And that's the problem with our culture is truthfully, it's a lot of young people. It's a lot of people who scroll on TikTok all day. So they have TikTok brain where they can't even listen to a full debate. They don't have the attention span to do that. And then the mainstream media sits here and calls people like Charlie Kirk and conservative people racist, fascist, Hitler. And so when you constantly demonize a public figure and you throw these words around like they have no meaning and then people are watching that mainstream media and they're also seeing these clips that are made for clickbait on TikTok and they're watching that every single day and they're consuming that.

22:30of course they're going to start to believe it. And then, well, I mean, if they believe that someone actually is a Nazi or a misogynist, then of course they're going to be like, yeah, we want him dead because he's all those different things. Savannah Stone in conversation with fellow Charlie Kirk supporters Naomi Speakman and Jordan Goodman. Thank you to them and all our guests this week. I'm Rahul Tandon and you've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. Thank you.