Everest tourism's toll on Sherpas

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1:06Welcome to the fifth floor from the BBC World Service with me, Faranak Amidi. The BBC World Service broadcasts in 45 languages around the world. Our job here at the fifth floor is to bring you the best of those stories in English and also to get you closer to the extraordinary work our journalists do. Later, we will hear why some senior Catholic priests from the Vatican flew to Peru to kneel and ask forgiveness from a native tribe.

1:44Today, we are here to ask for your forgiveness on behalf of the Church. We are late. We should have come here 20 years ago, and we are truly sorry. Please forgive us. But first, at the beginning of June, a cleanup crew on Mount Everest were clearing abandoned tents and rubbish when they saw a man in the distance, completely alone, sliding down the mountain towards base camp. The man was Hilary Dawah Sherpa. He had been missing for six days and his family were so convinced that he had died that they already started doing last rites for him. He was airlifted to a nearby hospital where he received treatment for dehydration and frostbites and a fractured bone.

2:33Nearly every person who climbs Mount Everest depends on a member of the Sherpa community to guide them up the mountain, carry belongings and set up camps. So why was Hilary Dawa Sherpa left alone on the mountain? Joining me today is Kamal Pariyar of BBC Nepali, who spoke to Hilary Dawah Sharpa about his miraculous survival, and global environment correspondent, Navin Singh Khatka, who is also from Nepal. Welcome, guys. It's great to have you on the fifth floor. Kamal, I'm going to start with you. When you went to see Hilary Dawah Sharpa in the hospital, what was it like and what did he tell you?

3:15In the brief conversation, Dava explained how he survived and expressed his happiness to see his family members again. He didn't go missing, but he was forced to stay behind as his oxygen ran out near Camp 3. He also informed that he chewed ice when he was thirsty and fortunately found some chocolate in his pockets to eat. And he also informed that he had lost his bag that included his gears and walkie-talkie. So he couldn't make the immediate communication with the expedition team back in Kathmandu. And so he didn't think that he would be alive. He was trapped in a crevice for about two days near Khumbu House icefall section.

3:59After managing to come out from the crevice, he followed some ropes that he found nearby. And he didn't stop until he reached places near base camp. and a group that leads the cleaning campaign in the Everest, they saw him and he was carried down before he was airlifted to Kathmandu for treatments. Wow, a true miraculous survival, really. So Kamal, one part of the story that has been, you know, raising a lot of questions is that Dawah was initially hired for this particular expedition as a cook, but then eventually he became a guide. Why did that happen? And is it a common thing in expeditions?

4:47It's not a usual thing for sure because the family members that I talked to said that he was hired as a cook, not as a guide. He was booked for up to Camp 2 only. But told his family members that he had to accompany a foreign climber after another guide failed to join him for some reasons. At the same time, the expedition company that Dawa was associated with has different narratives and at present, the case is under the investigation. It's a report in a couple of days, maybe tomorrow or thereafter. And things will be more clearer then, I guess. And do we know why it took so long for him to be rescued?

5:30Everyone is happy that Dawa self-rescued himself amid difficult landscape, amid bad weather conditions. But the people, especially families of the Sharpa, have been raising a question. Would there be the same treatments to the foreign climbers or any VIP clients? The entire mountaineering community and the members of the family are yet to know about this and why he was rescued so late. But people are blaming the expedition company for its negligence and government's efforts in the delays of his search and rescue operations. I think the search operation was carried out after three days of he went missing.

6:18Liaison officers at the base camp knew days after he went missing. The search was carried out only after the story was covered in the international media. So since everyone thought he was not alive and search and rescue operations began very late, but had there been GPS tracking system in place, I think it would be easier to trace him in time and a rescue could be carried a little earlier. Navid, I want to bring you in here. You've been reporting on Mount Everest for a very long time. When incidents like this happen, does it bring a lot of scrutiny onto the industry? What is the reaction of people?

7:00What are the topics that they talk about? So when things like this happen, there's a lot of buzz. And then it evaporates. And then we have next climbing season. Everybody forgets what happened past then and then. See, I'll tell you quickly, in 2014, 16 Sherpas died because of an avalanche. Yes. We were there. We went to this village where most of those who were dead came from. Now, even then, there was a lot of hue and cry about how to regulate all this, what's to be done. And that was that. Fast forward 2023, 18 climbers died because of the traffic jam. But then what happened? Almost nothing.

7:38It kind of fiddles out, you know, it's just that it's basically a business, a business for everyone. I won't just blame the government here. It's also the private operators who make big money, including Nepalese operators and also international operators. We hear now and then some laws being introduced. The question is, how much is that implemented? And then the big multi-billion dollar question is, who implements them on the ground? What Kamal just now talked about liaison officers, that we've been reporting for many, many years now. The liaison officers are deployed with each team. They are supposed to keep track of everything, what's going on.

8:18But what happens is, we've seen this all these years, they just sign the papers, they pocket money, and then many of them, in fact, most of them don't even go there. Some of them who do just go there to the base camp, do photo ops, come back. Now, the question is, in this case, who was the liaison officer? Why did this person not know about this? Why did this person let a cook advance further? And then there were other liaison officers stationed in at the base camp. At least three of them, I know. Why were they not in the know? Kamal, when incidents like this happen, Sherpas get injured or left behind or die in these expeditions.

8:59Does it cause resentment towards the tourist industry in that area, in the Sherpa community? Yes. Death and injury of the Sherpa guides can build a sort of resentment, but it's really a very simple hatred towards individual tourists. Instead, this resentment is a complex mix of grief, economic necessity and frustration. In this case, people have been asking about why Sherpas must risk their lives to rescue client members who lack basic mountaineering skills. And when an influential guide dies or loses his fingers or too fast, while helping our client to make the Sherpa community feel intense or frustrated.

9:48So they're not happy that it's happening time and again, but the story is the same, I have to say. And Kamal, do people in Nepal, especially from the Sherpa community, want to see a reduction in this climbing tourist industry or maybe even a complete ban on it? Every year, this debate comes into the limelight during the average season. The number of climbers rising every year resulting in overcrowding on Mount Everest reveals a complex divide within Nepal and among Sherpa guides especially. Though there is an urgent desire to reduce the number of inexperienced climbers, there is a slim voice for the complete ban.

10:37I had an interview recently with a record climber, Kamirita Serpa, after he reached 32 times on top of Mount Everest. He stressed on limiting the climbing permits rather than complete ban, stating that the mountain is the lifeblood of the local community. And Navin, I know that you have reported on some attempts to make climbing Everest a bit safer. Could you tell us about those? So you see, they, I mean, like I said earlier, they have been introducing new rules and regulations time and again. The question is about how much it is implemented. Well, in some case, they have been implemented, but in many, they have not been.

11:21For example, the question of, like I said, climbers need to have experience. So what's the shortcut they found? The shortcut they found was because they'll have to spend three months, two months, three months, whatever, at the base camp. So maybe those operators will train those climbers who have no experience just then when they're at the base camp. You see what I mean? So that can be a quick go, you know, and then they can produce the certificate that here we go. We've got the training already. That's a quick fix, you know. But when it comes to implement, the liaison officer is a striking example, you see.

11:53That is, I think, the foremost point. If the liaison officers do their job effectively and duly, honestly, I think many of these issues can be addressed. I'm not saying it can be a foolproof thing. Remember, this is adventure tourism. It involves risks. But when all these kind of flouting happens, then that risk jumps manifold. Yeah. And why, in your opinion, what are the main reasons these things are failing and they're not being implemented properly? I think, to be honest, it starts with the level of seriousness. You see, like I said, events happen, tragedies happen, and it hogs headlines. lines and it's in the news.

12:33And then suddenly, you know, one year down the line, everybody forgets. That cycle has been going on for many, many years now. And then, of course, you know, there is this tussle between the local governance and the government in Kathmandu. So the local government, the Pasang Lamu rural municipality that regulates this place locally, they are now trying to get things in their own hand. They think that they should have the authority. And there was a tussle going on. So I think, you know, if once this give and take happens properly, then maybe, maybe a few things can change. I'm not saying everything will change.

13:10Because you see, there are other things. We have not even talked about climate change, how climate change is posing this massive thing into another real Himalayan task. But yes, to some extent, things can happen. For example, the poo bag. This was introduced by the local government, You have to bring your poo back because the mountain is stinking now. It's full of things. These people who got Hilary Dawashirpa from the lower reaches, that's quite low. Higher up, South Kohl, for example, that's the Camp 4. Go there. Now, people have been sending me videos. They are the ghost tent city now. That's terrible.

13:46They have left behind the entire tent. How irresponsible. And the tents are now dancing like ghosts at Camp 4. Trash. So this is like, you know, it's easier said than done. It's easier said than done. But hopefully they'll find this needs to be sustainable. This needs to be sustainable. Absolutely. Well, thank you both. Kamal Pariyar from BBC Nepali and Naveen Singh Khadka, Global Environment Correspondent for BBC World Service.

14:21You are listening to the documentary. from the BBC World Service.

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15:47This is The Fifth Floor, and I'm Farinaik Amidi. In May, in a town in northwestern Peru, a group of Catholic priests knelt and publicly asked for forgiveness from descendants of the indigenous Tayan community. The scene, captured on video, is pretty remarkable. A group of priests in robes addressing the representatives of the community before stepping down to be among them and kneeling. We are here to ask for your forgiveness on behalf of the church, said Monsignor Jordi Bertomeu, the Vatican's special envoy, as members of the congregation looks on. So let's find out more about why these priests were asking forgiveness.

16:32I have Isabel Caro from BBC Mundo here with me, who's been following this story. Isabel, welcome. Thank you so much. It's great to have you. So before anything else, let's set the scene. Who are the Tayan community? Yeah, the Tayan community are considered one of the oldest indigenous peoples of Peru's northern coast. They inhabited large lands on the area way before of the colonial times. And they were communities that lived from the agriculture and they lived from their land, basically. And the San Juan Bautista, the Catacaos community, which is in the center of this dispute, seems themselves as the descendants of this group.

17:22So you said this dispute. This is exactly why the church was there to apologize. But this dispute goes back to 1998. Tell us what happened then. Yeah, that's the year when everything started for the communities, because that year a transfer they claimed was fraudulent of nearly 10 ,000 hectares of communal land was made. the land that they owned was transferred in an assembly that they said never really happened. And actually, they found out later that people who had signed this transfer deed were dead at the moment when the assembly took place. It was thought that these people who got the land steal some dead members' identities in order to make this happen.

18:16Also, some of the community members who appear signing claim that they did not recognize doing that and their signatures were forged. So that is the very beginning of this story. A land was transferred in a fraudulent way. That's why they, that's how the people there is calling this. And their ownership of the land was different from the modern day ownership, which each person has their own deed. Yeah, because since they were like indigenous communities, they didn't have like property titles themselves. Like they weren't individual titles. They were like communal kind of titles. So when this transfer was made, the land was sold to a company that then passed it to a firm linked to the Sodalitium.

19:12Let's talk about the Sodalitium because they are at the heart of the story. They are kind of a sect and quite influential in Peru. Who are they? Yeah, well, the Sodalitium of Christian life was a conservative movement founded in Peru in 1971. by Luis Fernando Figari. It was founded as a Catholic apostolic society made up for both priests and consecrated lay members. They were recognized by the Vatican in 1992. And they create this religious community there in Peru, which is a very Catholic country, by the way. And they became a very strong and influential institution there, not only in terms of their religion, but also they were very powerful in terms of their political links and also their business because they had like a lot of interest in different industries there.

20:13Meanwhile, for the Tayan community, in the beginning when this land transfer happened, things didn't really change for the community. But then from 2011 onwards, things started changing and not in their advantage and benefit. What happened? Yeah, well, that year was like an inflection point for the communities because since the transfer happened in 1998, nothing really changed for them. So they keep living from the land. They were there doing their normal activities and nothing really changed for them. But then one day they realized some fences were being built in territories that they claimed that they owned.

21:03And at that point, what happened was that a big confrontation between the community and the people who were building the fences took place. And in November that year, this escalated way more because what the members of the community told me is that there was a massive confrontation between these two groups. Tell us more about how this conflict over this land started developing. The communities realized there were fences being built on their land. They tried to fight back and they tried to remove them. So then there was this violent confrontation. And that's when this man, he was on his 30s, had two children and a wife.

21:49His name is Guadalupe Zapata Sosa. He died because of one of the gunfires. In that moment, everything was very complex and it was a very agitated moment. And the community tried to defend themselves and defend the land. And that is when this member of the community dies. But that creates a very complex environment for them because this incident began what the Tayan people alleged was a criminalization campaign against them for a range of offenses, including trespassing, robbery and terrorism. Then in 2015, the Peruvian journalist Paula Ugas and Pedro Salinas published a book revealing that Sogillutia members had sexually abused many people within the organization.

22:40So that was like a big bomb. And that's when the Vatican take responsibility. And Pope Francis at that time sent Jordi Bertomeu and also Charles Cicluna to investigate this case and investigate this organization. Yeah. And then they realized this was not only about sexual abuse, but also abuse of power and also like a very kind of corruptive organization that were using religion to create wealth and avoid taxes and everything. They're always denied this. I mean, the company and the Sotilitium, they have been saying for years that they are not guilty of any of these claims. Nevertheless, the Vatican has apologized on their behalf.

23:26Yes. Do we know what the Vatican investigation found out? Actually, that is not very clear. But in terms of what we've been seeing the last couple of years and the narrative in which is being held by the Vatican, not only now with this gesture of kneeling in front of them, but also in 2024, Pope Francis sent a video to this community saying, I know what happened to you just you just need to defend your land keep doing that like it was the Vatican always support this community and they believe them because they realized and concluded after the investigation that that the socialitium was a corrupted institution after the investigation Pope Francis decided to suppress completely this institution and that's why what happened on that mass that was very emotional for their community they told me I talked with them and they told me it was a very like significant moment for them because they felt recognized they felt some justice and that's when the community started to feel more supported and what happened on this mass was like the end of that that path of of the promise of the vatican to give some reparation to these people.

24:45But it's important to say that in Peru, there is no sentence or anything legal that proves that these lands were transferred in an illegal way. It's complex. And when I talk with Jordi Bertomeu, he says this is a country with a very complex institutional situation. It's a very complex country in terms of their politics, their being in a lot of crisis. So what he tried to say with that is it's the justice in Peru needs to do more for these people because it's something that the Vatican feel it is their responsibility. And that's why they want to repair these families, not only with symbolic kind of gestures.

25:30Like an apology. Yeah. But also with money, with like economic reparation. Is that something that might happen? What Berto Meo told me is that they are in a very complex process of assessing the assets of this organization because it's not very clear which are the assets that they could liquidate in this case. But they are trying to do that. They are trying to get into that place where they can just liquidate those assets and then give some money back to the communities. At least that is the promise from the Vatican. And the families are now like very hopeful about that because they know the new Pope, Pope Leo, is also very committed to this conflict.

26:17I mean, he is connected to Peru. He was a bishop of Chiclayo, which is very nearby to this situation. And he had a crucial role in taking this gate to Pope Francis and in the decision that it was taking afterwards. Thank you very much, Isabel. Thank you, Isabel Caro from BBC Mundo.

26:41If you're a regular listener to The Fifth Floor, it's great to have you back. If you're just cashing the program for the first time, I should let you know that The Fifth Floor is at the heart of global storytelling on the BBC World Service, bringing you the best stories from BBC journalists from all over the world. They're always like half step away from a big breakthrough. Because it just takes one good acquaintance, right? One good opportunity for them to get access to something really important. It seems in most of the cases, in 90 or maybe even 99 % of the cases, it doesn't happen. But what if it happens?

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