Experiences of miscarriage

0:00unknown couple:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30unknown couple:Make your travel dollars work harder. Follow Smart Travel on your favourite podcast app. Ever wonder why we make the choices we do? And how to make smarter ones? Introducing Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join Wharton Professor Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioural scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes and everyday people about why we do the things we do and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes. Each episode covers the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self-control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings, and why starting over can feel so hard.

1:20unknown couple:Listen to choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.

1:32unknown couple:Hello, I'm James Reynolds. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences. This time, we hear from two couples sharing their experiences of miscarriage. As well as physical symptoms such as pain and bleeding, miscarriage can be deeply traumatic for couples who were looking forward to becoming parents. and who instead find themselves grieving the loss of an unborn child. In our conversation, our guests discuss their experiences of miscarriage, the strain it's put on their relationships, and the support offered, or not, to grieving couples.

2:14unknown couple:Northern Ireland has just introduced paid leave for a woman and the woman's partner. If the couple suffer a miscarriage, we'll hear more about that later. So let me introduce you to Vesta and her partner, Leslie. Now in the UK, they grew up in Europe. Their families are originally from Ghana. After multiple miscarriages, the couple now has three kids. And Joseph and Katharina are in Sweden. Katharina is now pregnant after an earlier miscarriage.

2:42Catharina:I felt that it was such a surprise when we lost our first baby. I was expecting everything to be normal because the experiences of people that I had close by, they seemed to be very positive. But actually, when I experienced miscarriage myself, I started to get to know people who also experienced the same thing, but they just didn't talk about it. Maybe Joseph can tell also how it was for him. Yeah, for me, it was a strange emotional experience where I really felt empty inside afterwards. I haven't really experienced that other times in my life. Generally speaking, I'm quite positive and happy about my life, but it was definitely a low point where I just couldn't really understand what was happening within me and my own thoughts and emotions.

3:37Catharina:And it was tough. And I'm very happy now to be expecting a child with my wife being pregnant.

3:46unknown couple:Congratulations.

3:47Catharina:Yes, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Things have changed. But it was a roller coaster.

3:53unknown couple:Katharina, how far along were you in your pregnancy when you had the miscarriage?

3:57Catharina:I was in the beginning, so I was six weeks. And that's also very tricky because when we went to the hospital and then we did the ultrasound and the baby wasn't developing as it should be, the doctor said that it's more normal than we think. And it happens to many women, but that's the last thing that you actually want to hear because you just wish that you had your baby there unhealthy in the ultrasound and some positive news. And it's also you have mixed feelings because you are grieving for someone that you've never met and you never will get to know, but you still feel sad. So even though I try to be sometimes rational about it, it was very difficult because my feelings were telling me and my body was telling me something completely different.

4:51Catharina:It took a long time for us to even get pregnant too. So we were trying for quite a while to get pregnant. And then once it happened, once we got a positive pregnancy test, we were celebratory. And then things changed so quickly from that to, oh, never mind, this is not going to be a child developing as we expected. So the emotions went from one side of the spectrum to the other and quite quickly. I think that for me was very hard as well.

5:19unknown couple:Well, thank you so much for sharing your experiences. And we'd love to bring in our second couple in this conversation, Leslie Investor. Yes, I would love to talk to them. Yes. Leslie Investor, thank you so much for joining us. I know you'll have listened so closely to Katharina and Joseph. And what have been your experiences as a couple of miscarriage? It's very similar. It's actually almost a mirror because obviously when you start off, you know, trying, these are the things that you do not think about. These are the things that no one talks to you about because everybody talks about the happiness and the joy you feel when you first find out you're pregnant, the symptoms that come with it and everything else.

5:57unknown couple:Thinking back, our journey started in 2010, really. And I must say, I've had miscarriages in all stages. it's been a challenge you know when it first happened it was like you know we found out we're pregnant we're excited went to our first scan and then there was there was nothing in the sack I didn't know of the terminology I had never seen a scan before so to me everything was very new and I wasn't sure how to react and everything that was told to me didn't make any sense it was heartbreaking but I still had that hope that actually okay this you know as I was told it happens a lot it takes a few times to get it right said okay fine fair enough but I wasn't able to open up to anybody because no one around me was going through it no one around me had ever shared an experience like that before so it's just me and Leslie and you know I think we took solace in each other in knowing that okay this might not be it but next time it will happen However, you know, it took us a long time to actually get pregnant And be pregnant for a longer period within the term So I think emotionally it was really tough I was the one that was going through it physically And I was dealing with it emotionally But Leslie was supporting me And I think sometimes, thinking back at it now That maybe his emotions were almost neglected, if that made sense Because he was strong for me I think it was very weird having to go to work and knowing that Vesta was home by herself.

7:32unknown couple:It made me very unhappy at work at the time, I remember. I was on the edge all the time. Every phone call that was coming to me was scary. Anytime I saw a missed call from Vesta, I'm like, okay, is she okay? Has anything else happened? You know, there was always something to worry about. and I think that was the start of never actually celebrating any of the pregnancies at least not you know not much because I was almost wanting to see the baby pop out before I know that I'm happy there's a child because the experiences were quite a few there was one we lost at 20 weeks so we actually delivered a still baby and and that was the worst of all of them I mean we have three kids now, I must put it out there.

8:21unknown couple:But obviously, there was no excitement on my part during the whole pregnancy because of the experiences we'd had. Very traumatizing in a way. Thank you so much for sharing those stories.

8:35Catharina:I have a question for you, if you don't mind. So through all this difficulty, how did you stay connected with one another? Did you find it difficult because I remember we lost a little bit of our communication I feel like because we were both dealing with emotions and trying to think and trying to understand ourselves and these things how was it for you?

8:58unknown couple:I think in the beginning I felt I didn't have a true understanding of it all so when Vesta was still wanting us to try again in my mind why would you want to do this again And, you know, even before we had our first one, I couldn't understand why she wanted to put her body through that. So every time she talked about, should we try again? I was almost angry because why are we doing this to ourselves? Why are you doing this to your body? Much as we were in sync in certain ways, a part of me was always concerned about why she wanted to continue having kids. Our relationship was tried.

9:40Catharina:Yeah.

9:41unknown couple:Yeah. I hear that.

9:42Catharina:I relate a bit to that. After we lost our first one, I think we needed some time to recover. And then we decided to try it again. We unfortunately lost the second one and it was also in the early stages. But after the second loss that I also didn't expect, I thought maybe, okay, it happens once, but the second one will go well. But it didn't. So I really felt unmotivated and just very frustrated until we tried for the third time. And I was like, if this time it doesn't work, I really need a pause because I don't have the emotional to go through that again. But thankfully it worked out. But I do know that I would have needed, I don't know, more support or more time to go through this again.

10:37Catharina:because it's, as you said, like the first pregnancy is full of happiness. But once you lose it, the upcoming ones, they come with a lot of anxieties and frustrations and overthinking. So I could never just relax and enjoy the pregnancy. So you change a lot.

10:56unknown couple:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I found that I remember when we went through our worst one, I sat him down and I said, listen, Leslie, I know we're in love. you know we got my because we love each other we have a lot of things in common and everything but if you find that you know as we're trying and it's not working we're never going to have children together this is the time this is the reason for you to leave if you have to right and I wouldn't hold it against you and I said it and he looked at me and he's like well me and you are together because not we know we're going to have children we're together because we love each other so that's a that's a you know he said if further down the line we realize we can't have children then we just have to figure out what life looks like without them.

11:38unknown couple:And I think that's when after we realized that, okay, actually, we're happy as we are, but obviously in the future, if for whatever reason we are unable to have children. And mind you, there was a lot of guilt on me. I felt very pressured. I felt like it's my fault because it's my body, right? That's not doing something right. So it means that it's all on me. It's not so much lessness. So what happens? you know so as a couple these are the questions that I know other couples also have it's a conversation that I think sometimes just happens to come up when a couple has faced so many losses or even if it's just the one because naturally I think when you know people get together get married or decide to be a long-term partnership this is one of the results or the reasons why what happens after if that makes sense so when that doesn't happen it was just a massive elephant in the room that needed to be addressed.

12:35unknown couple:Vesta and Leslie in conversation with Katharina and Joseph. We'll hear more from both couples in just a moment. I'm James Reynolds. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

13:01unknown couple:It's Mr. Pibb. Sweet cherry, bold outbursts, the kind of flavor that gets attention. Bold kick of cherry. Are you Mr. Pibb? Roll the window down. Do you hear that? It's the sound of spring. So bring on the spring at the Honda Spring Event. Honda's family of hybrids and EVs are ready for wherever spring takes you. Check out the all-electric Honda Prologue, CR-V Hybrid, Accord Hybrid, and Civic Hybrid. all from the 2025 Kelly Blue Book Best Value brand.

13:31Catharina:For great deals, visit your local Chicagoland and Northwest Indiana Honda dealer today. Based on 2025 Consumer Choice Awards from Kelly Blue Book, visit kbb.com for more information.

13:40unknown couple:Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast. Personal finance can feel like a pop quiz you didn't study for. This podcast is your study guide. On NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast, you'll hear from trusted journalists who explain the why behind major financial decisions. You'll get research-backed insights and clear pros and cons, whether you're planning a big purchase or just want to grow your wealth. Make your next financial move with confidence. Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast on your favourite podcast app.

14:14unknown couple:According to the World Health Organisation, globally, around one in four pregnancies ends before the developing baby reaches 28 weeks old. Earlier this month, Northern Ireland became the first part of the UK in which a woman and her partner are entitled to two weeks of paid leave if they experience a miscarriage at any stage of pregnancy. New Zealand, India and the Philippines also have laws aimed at supporting grieving couples as they deal with the trauma of miscarriage and come to terms with the loss of their unborn child. In this, the second part of our conversation, our guests discuss the support they got after their miscarriages and the change in attitudes that they would like to see.

14:58unknown couple:Let's hear again then from Katharina and Joseph, and firstly, Leslie and his partner, Vesta. We were offered therapy, you know, to try and talk to someone about what's happening to me and the emotions and us as a couple and what that means. And I think one of the miscarriages I had, which was before my second daughter, which was, I think, a bit more traumatic because it came with surgery. After that, my consultant sat me down and said, Vesta, you really now need to speak to someone because this is something that after that, your chances of having children are slimmer. So you need to really sit down and see maybe if it means you're just going to have the one child.

15:35unknown couple:I still stayed positive because I think my faith in me and there was something telling me that I am meant to be a mother and it's just going to happen. It might take a bit longer or whatever. So the support was going to come through talking therapy, which I never took up. And I don't know why I never took it up. I just felt like I can do this by myself. Me and Leslie, we are strong. We can do this together. But after a while, I opened up to friends and family. And that's when they also opened up and said, actually, we've gone through this. And throughout my life, I have come encounter with women that have gone through it.

16:06unknown couple:They're complete strangers to me. But we strike up a conversation. We start talking. and then actually there's almost like a healing process that happens when you open up and you can share your experience with someone and someone can share the experience with you i never knew my mom had a miscarriage until we had our first miscarriage we were talking to my dad's sister and he said oh you'll be fine you know your mom your mom had a miscarriage before your oldest brother and you had a third born so you know she had three kids after that so don't worry and i said what my mom had a miscarriage i never knew that and i understand why people don't talk about these things, at least within our community.

16:42unknown couple:I don't know about you, Joseph. First of all, men do not talk about miscarriages and how they feel when their wives go through miscarriages. I don't think I've come across any male friend or relative in my circle who has said, look, I'm really stressed because my wife has had a miscarriage. It doesn't mean they are not, but nobody discusses it. I agree with that.

17:05Catharina:I think men will think a lot about it and they'll carry it with them, but maybe not discuss it openly. But I have tried to go against that a little bit. And that's also why we're opening up to do this talk with you guys. And I'm happy to do it. But I recognized also in myself that I was probably doing the same thing and not sharing enough or not talking to people and not asking people questions and even with family. And so I think I can probably do a little bit better job on that too and share my experience and my feelings and just in an honest and easy way, in a laid-back way. But I think it can help heal, like what you said.

17:45Catharina:It creates this healing environment.

17:47unknown couple:Can I just ask, when you as couples respectively suffered those losses, those miscarriages, did everyone in your lives always know what to say to you? Oh, gosh, no. I mean, somebody, one of my friends said to Vesta, what did you do or what happened? It was almost like, what did you do to create that miscarriage issue? And we found it shocking. Obviously, we didn't open up to that many people, but the few we told did not know the right things to say. So we ended up not telling people. It made it worse. We didn't say anything.

18:26Catharina:I decided not to share with people and only my mom knew, but because she hadn't gone through a miscarriage herself, she didn't know how to handle it. So she would ask how I'm feeling and trying to make me feel good every day. But sometimes I just wanted to be left alone. And I actually didn't know what I was feeling myself. But I think the fact that maybe I didn't share with a lot of people, maybe it was good in a way because I didn't need to hear this type of comments. But also very, it was like a burden. and then having to go to work and pretend that everything was fine was also very difficult.

19:08unknown couple:Did any of you take time off, given the fact that in some areas now there is miscarriage leave?

19:15Catharina:No, absolutely not.

19:18unknown couple:I think one of the things that really upset me, which made me eventually leave that job, when we had the ectopic and her jeep was removed after she got home she needed a lot of help to do things but I wasn't given time off from work and that's when I got so demotivated to do anything at work I got really angry with them at work and eventually found another job