Flying with kids: Cabin chaos

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1:17Hello, welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. I'm James Reynolds and this time in BBC Conversations, we bring people together to discuss something that most airline passengers dread. Noisy and disruptive children on flights. On the 9th of August in the Canadian West Coast city of Victoria, Porter Airlines flight PD444 was taxiing to the runway for an overnight flight to Toronto. Pretty routine stuff. Everyone was ready to go, apart that is, from one small child. That child reportedly stood on their seats and refused to put on a seatbelt. Despite efforts by the parents and crew, you can imagine how frantic that must have been.

2:03The child would not sit down. The delay, though, meant that the flight could not depart before the airport closed for the night. It was cancelled, disrupting the plans of everyone on board. Imagine, then, how they must have felt. The incident has opened a debate about how airlines should deal with these kinds of situations and how parents should control their children. Later on, cabin crew will share their experiences. But for our first conversation, my colleague Luke Jones brought together three mothers who regularly travel with young kids. Charlotte is currently in Vietnam. Elena is in Sweden.

2:38And firstly, Emma, here in the UK, gave her reaction to what happened with that Canadian flight. You know, as a parent, you're always going to be judged. but from what I read they did ask them to leave and they weren't happy about leaving whereas I think when I was on the plane and my little girl was horrendous and I'm having to hold it I think I might have been quite pleased if they said would you leave like at one point I think it got to a certain point and it's not safe I'll be like yeah you know what we'll leave this isn't worth it anymore. As a parent we always feel the social pressure from passengers so if it comes to the point that the child is screaming crying uncontrollably you can't do anything then yeah I think it's better just to leave.

3:16Yeah, agreed. I mean, if you've tried everything and your child, the child just doesn't settle, I would definitely leave. But personally, I don't feel bad anymore after hundreds of flights of my kids, like behaving like kids in a plane. It's a public space. Kids have the right to be there. And kids, well, our kids in our society nowadays, especially in France, like kids are asked to behave like adults in you know public spaces and they're not adults like sometimes something goes wrong and they can't express it and the way they express it might be like running around the plane I haven't read about the story but my thought is that I hope the parents don't feel too bad because if they tried everything they could and it didn't work then it happens that's just what it is traveling with kids sometimes you can't just control your child it's not a little puppet or robots that you ask to sit and do whatever they want all the time.

4:15Sometimes they feel off. We all have off days. So I think it was one of those for that child. You all have experience of this. Charlotte, why don't you tell us about traveling with little kids? How's it gone for you in the past? Yeah, I've had two traumatic experiences, honestly. The first one was with my firstborn, and it was the first flight with her. She was four weeks and we were going to South America. it was two flights connecting in Miami and during the two flights she did not stop crying like I just could not make her stop crying because she was exhausted and I was exhausted as well and what I was doing is that I was using all the techniques that I use at home I was a new mom a new mom so I was just doing that but I didn't realize well look you're not at home this is not gonna work like You're trying to put a blanket to make it dark, but it's impossible to make a space dark for your child in the plane.

5:10So she's just basically totally overwhelmed by what's happening. And you're trying too hard to do all the things you usually do, and they don't work. So from that time, I really learned that there are tricks and a lot of different things you can do on the plane. And the rules that you have at home and the routines don't apply on the plane. You just have to do something new. So that was a big first lesson. and another pretty traumatic experience is that during landing like my child really needed to go to the bathroom and didn't want to sit still and I just like it was awful she was just screaming and she couldn't stand up and it was like when I learned the art of distraction it's like you do whatever you can to take your child's mind off the issue and you have to be super creative so now I like always have a bullet points in my head of things to do and I go down the list sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't that time I think I put headphones on her with like music she liked and it changed everything so you need to know the little tricks learn them along the way yeah I can relate to that um I was gonna say one of the tricks I use which doesn't work now with my five year old because obviously she's too old but my younger one I just pretend I can see things out the windows that aren't there.

6:24So I'm like, oh, look, a dragon, a giraffe. And like, because, you know, she believes me. She'll look at it and go, oh, no, like she can't see it. And then I'm like, oh, no, you just missed it. So like, if you're in a desperate situation, I just make up something that we can see and then hope that that will distract them. That's a good one. Tell us about your worst journey, Emma. Well, I say it happened both ways. But I think it was terrible because we didn't expect it because we'd taken her a flight before and she'd been absolutely fine. This was my first born. And I think she was like almost two.

6:57So, you know, like the terrible twos were happening. And I'd been a bit smug because we got through security fine. You know, checked everything. We'd been queuing fine. And it was when we got on the plane, she was a little bit upset. And it was the moment we had to put the seatbelt on. She just completely lost any sense of reason. And the best way I can describe it is like she was possessed by like some kind of monster. This happened to me too, I swear, several times. there's something for sure yeah I can relate to that yeah so she was screaming and crying and she was bright red and I just had to like because obviously it's not safe so I had to just hold her basically anytime the seat belt sign came on and she was screaming and I at one point was singing very loudly when I was like I don't know if this is making it worse like people now can hear the child screaming and my terrible singing but you know you've just got to try your best it was only to Paris the flight but it means there's like a lot of time the child has to have the seatbelt on because it's only like an hour and a half but obviously you're taking off and landing for a majority of that time so I remember just sitting and like looking and praying quietly being like please don't make us put the seatbelt on again yet just please because it's so bad and the woman beside us was like she asked for three vodkas and coke and I was like do you want me to pay for one because I was like, I think we've caused this.

8:17Like we've made this woman want to drink. And she was so kind and like, oh no, it's fine. And I was like, are you sure? Because I realized we're the reason this is happening. So it was absolutely horrendous. My worst flight was when I was already quite experienced because my daughters, they were five and almost three years old. So I was quite confident. And we were flying from Cairo to London. It was a very early morning flight, six in the morning. So my daughter who was three years old, she probably didn't sleep well and she needed to sleep more. she was over exhausted, over tired. So during takeoff, she just started screaming and she didn't stop screaming till we landed.

8:51And the flight from Cairo to London is quite long. So everybody on the plane were on vacation. They just hoped to sleep all the way to London. Instead, I was just feeling like the worst mom who could not make her child stop. Even the neighbors and the other passengers, sometimes they were coming to us, trying to play, to talk to a child, to distract nothing worked absolutely nothing so some people were understanding some were talking behind giving dirty looks i was feeling so miserable and the moment we landed she stopped crying yeah it's like they know isn't it oh thank goodness it's over i can get off now and are you aware throughout all of this i mean what the rest of the plane is thinking because sometimes i don't have children but when you're on a plane with a screaming child you feel like the parents are quite good at tuning it out because i guess they've used they're used to it and the rest of us are sort of experiencing this noise for the first time it's sort of more annoying for us is that fair i don't think that's true i think especially um as a mom your hormones are kind of like going wild when you hear your baby crying so like you're more used to it but i'm also like i often think my children sound louder to me than other people because in my And I'm like, I need to find a way to stop it.

10:04And you're panicking. And it's kind of like you're in fight or flight mode because it's really stressful. And you can just hear this constant screaming and you're trying to find the solution. So yeah, I get other people who aren't around children normally will sound loud. I think it sounds loudest to the parents who are having to deal with it. Like you're really aware of everybody around you and how noisy your child is being almost, probably more than they actually are. Emma, you gave us that very good tip of, you know, pointing out the window and going, oh, look at that, even when there's nothing there.

10:30Charlotte, do you have any tips and tricks? So I think, you know, in your handbag, you should always actually keep it near your feet and have a couple of things inside just to deal with these types of moments and try to distract in different ways. So things that I really like is like a birthday balloon that's not, you know, blown. And then you can blow it a little bit, let your child blow it. But they find it usually very funny. and it's like helping really distracting them and it doesn't take any space in your bag. So this trick has served me a lot. And when you're at the airport, you can also use it to distract your child and like close the balloon, but that's something that I use a lot.

11:11I also always carry like, you know, dried fruit or little gummy looking things. I try to, you know, do the healthy way, but like something that your child can eat and that feels like a sweet treat to them and that can help definitely. I always have stickers, you know, you can, I like the one that you can stick on places and then remove easily. And you can create a story with the stickers on the window of the plane or around you without leaving any mess. My kids really like that as well. And of course, like a tablet with movies, games, or stories, because, you know, for me in a plane, the rules that apply home or in your routine don't apply.

11:57There is no rule on a plane. Like you are there. Don't be worried about screen time. Don't be worried about screen time. Just do what works. Yeah, do what works. And don't worry about giving your child a bad habit. I've never seen that in my kids. They never asked for things they asked on a plane or had on a plane outside of a plane. So yeah, do what works. But be prepared. Like I think being prepared as a parent is a key to helping your child as well if you're not well prepared then you might have a hard time settling the child down just by shushing or you know telling a story like you do need some things i don't say bring a whole like bag of toys that's not necessarily what helps but like specific things can really help i totally agree i always bring sticker books so with some new toys with new stickers and some snacks favorite cartoons on the ipad and i also bought when i was in japan small erasers like animals and you can like it's like a lego so it doesn't take a lot of space and depending on the age children can play with them for a long time yeah yeah also ventus toy and magnetic toys are amazing the ventus one yeah on the windows and play with them and magnetic also they don't like you don't lose them easily they just stick to a certain board so these are great too yeah we use a lot of them especially because you can stick it to the table or the window it's so handy just to put it on there and let them play for a bit another thing we do is we often go to like the charity shop in secret without the children we get a few little toys that then we wrap up so they can like open on the plane and that's distracting them even if it's just opening up and we're like oh what's this and then that's new and interesting for them to play with for a little bit.

13:35Yeah, but the trick is I do exactly the same thing. But what I find is that don't give them that upon entering the plane. Keep them for emergency case. Yeah, you really have to wait until the end. And it happened to me that I finished a flight without having given the toys that I had planned and wrapped up because I didn't need them. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to keep them for another emergency. What about the staff on the plane? How useful are they? just because we put this story on TikTok and one of the people who commented on that said that they were on a flight a few years ago.

14:08A little girl got scared. The parents did their best. Dad held the hand. But a flight attendant, quote, leaned over and shouted at her. And as a result, she wet the seat. The abuse the whole family got from the flight attendants was shocking. The parents had to get a plastic bag and the dad sat on the wet seat for takeoff and landing. The poor kid frozen to the spot. And it's obviously quite an extreme example. But do you find that the air stewards and the rest are sort of a bit more accommodating? or not? I've never had any help from staff on the plane and I've flown over 500 times with my kids.

14:41No one ever offered to help or landed a hand or anything and that has been super shocking and I've flown all companies throughout the world. I was going to actually, I don't know if this is like maybe a more English thing, I've actually found with Air France and with EasyJet and Jet2, The staff had been very friendly, especially I remember there was one Air France flight and my little girl was saying, I'm hungry, I'm hungry. And I was like, oh, would you please just wait, just wait, just sit down. And one of the stewards, they brought her a little biscuit because they clearly overheard our conversation.

15:15We were going, oh, just wait, please, because the bags are all, you know, in the top. And of course, I'd put the bag with the snacks in the wrong area. And I thought that was so kind because he overheard our conversation and thought, oh, I'll go and help. So I've actually felt I've been quite lucky. normally they've been very friendly and I'm quite like child friendly actually in my experience and I think I was quite lucky as well because I normally fly alone with children now I have three children and even when I was flying with one or two when I needed to go to the bathroom I would easily ask the staff the flight attendant to hold my baby to hold my child play with them while I would go to the toilet because the bathrooms are so tiny and they were always happy to hold the baby to play with a baby while I was in the bus room.

15:54So I never experienced anything negative. Elena and Emma, along with Charlotte, who runs the Little Voyageurs blog. Brilliant and useful tips for anyone travelling with young kids. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service with me, James Reynolds.

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17:53Our guests spoke in that first conversation about their mixed experiences with cabin crew. So we wanted to hear from flight attendants themselves about how they deal with disruptive of children whilst keeping all the other passengers safe and not grumbling. Mapule in South Africa has worked on flights across the Middle East for 15 years. Cindy is a former air hostess in the UK and Ali flew as a flight attendant on transatlantic flights and now lives in the US. Let's face it, if you are a toddler and suddenly you're being put in a metal tube surrounded by 150 strangers and you're strapped down, that's kind of scary.

18:32You have no concept of air travel. and from what I hear the child was terrified and refused to sit down. The crew would have had multiple attempts to try and get the child to sit and be safely secured but at the end of the day if they're not secured you have to make that decision to either offload them or there's nothing else you can do about pinning somebody down and beating them which nobody would actually want to do. So I have had this before as a parent. I travelled with my three-year-old and he was very tired. It was a late night flight and he's neurodivergent and he was just terrified of being strapped into this seat and he couldn't get to me because I was sat like just one seat away from him.

19:14And he didn't understand why he had to sit down there and was trying to get out. And luckily we were able to bribe him with chocolate and he sat down. So that was great. But you're basically looking at a parent's worst day and it's now in the global news. And I just feel bad for the parents. I feel bad for the other passengers who were probably trying to get home to their families or their jobs. And it's just not a good day for anybody all around. Yes, it is unavoidable. You can't really tell what a child would respond to because it's different with an adult. But if there's a child, you can't predict whether they will listen to the rules or not.

19:50So it is very uncomfortable for everyone because I can imagine the discomfort that the parent is feeling, the frustration that the parent is feeling. and obviously also nobody wants to get off a flight to spend the rest of the because people have things to do. But when it comes to the safety of the airline there's really nothing the airline could have done. That's a safety issue. Absolutely. What should the parent maybe have done maybe in advance of even getting on the plane and booking a flight with their child? In all honesty I don't think there is because there's not like any simulation that could prepare a child to sit on the seat because children are unpredictable.

20:25You can't really tell if a child would listen to your rules on that day. So usually what parents try and find to try and get them to sleep prior to boarding the aircraft because then they're asleep so then you are in control of their actions. They don't know what's happening. Cindy what would you say? Does this child wear a seat belt in a car because and if it does why couldn't the parent practice sitting in the back row of the seat next to them show them and do some work with the child before possibly take some counselling perhaps a child needs some slight medication that would help him be calm.

20:58But the bottom line is, the stewardesses, you know, we've been talking here, we're not there just to serve food and drinks. We're there for the passenger safety. If you're not sitting with your seatbelt on during turbulence on air pocket, severe damage can be done and possibly even kill a minor. So it should, they should have known there was going to be a problem. And I think the parents should have done more. As a passenger on that flight, I would be furious at the extra cost and time it would have cost me because of one small three-year-old child, was it, I believe? It's so hard to predict how a child is going to react in these situations.

21:36They might have worn a seatbelt in a car. I mean, I know my kid hated wearing a seatbelt in the car and would have reacted exactly the same in a car as well. And you can start to prepare a little bit. When I had the first issue with my child After that, I would spend a few days beforehand pretending we were going on an airplane. We'd set up seats and I would put a strap around him and just go, oh, we're going to take off and got to listen for the pilots and stuff. And then I'm also a huge advocate of like, if you want to use screens at this time, this is a great time. Distract that kid. Yeah, this is the perfect time to use screens.

22:07But I mean, the flight was canceled because the airport closes at 1230. So presumably this was super late at night. An overtired child is not negotiable. They don't want to listen to reason. and they don't want it. They just are scared. They don't know what's going on. They should be fast asleep. It's a really tricky situation. So maybe if you think your child might have issues with this, plan a flight that's in the daytime or plan a flight where you know your child is calm and more reasonable or just use the tools that you can have and practice beforehand. Maybe small toys that they can open from, you know, we go to the dollar store and get some, you know, Poundland or somewhere, get some small toys that you don't care if they break or lose or something like that and use those to bribe them with.

22:47it's such a tricky situation and until you you don't know what kind of child you're going to get it's not necessarily a parenting issue you just don't know how a small human that's got no concept of air travel is going to react to these situations stay with us with other reaction to this this voice message we got from a flight attendant in nigeria chichi as a flight attendant you must be assertive when it comes to setting grounds right when you know that safety is jeopardized you have to be assertive to let them know that okay you have to do this i've been in situations where let's say you are disturbing the peace of everyone else around you and you're refusing to do what needs to be done like fasten your seatbelt i've been in a situation where we have told someone oh fasten your seatbelt and they just feel like it's a bluff we had to turn and then disembark the passenger and you know we continued our journey so when people around you because people travel a lot and they see that, okay, this is important.

23:44It doesn't take you, you know, it's not going to kill you. It's for your own safety, for your own good. But for like children, I would say that it is the duty of the parents to, you know, be firm with that child and let them do what they have to do because they have to do it for their own safety. Thanks to Chichi in Nigeria for that. As I mentioned, this has got a lot of people talking about just general behaviour on airlines. All of you have experience on working on airlines and after your worst behaved passenger story, who'd like to start? I have so many. Go on. It's unbelievable. I mean, most of mine are adults.

24:22I have far more trouble with adult passengers than I ever do with children. One parent didn't help us out at all by feeding their kid constant Coke and chocolate, snacks and stuff like that. And they were so rude that every time they press the call bell, they'd be like, get my child a drink. There was no pleasers, no thank yous, there was no nothing. So I gave their child as much coke as they kept demanding. And then inevitably, when the child vomited everywhere, I also gave them the bags to clean that up. So, yeah, I mean, honestly, I have more trouble from usually drunk passengers. Most of my stories come from drunk passengers or passengers who've taken sleeping pills and drank and then they go absolutely crazy.

25:02I mean, we're talking naked passengers, people trying to open doors, people stealing other passengers' shoes. You name it, I've had it. Yeah, I don't know what it is about my flights. They find you somehow, these people. They hunt me out, yeah. Me and my worst were somebody booking a flight in the economy, knowing you have a back problem and expecting a free upgrade. The guy was old enough to be my father, but he was throwing tantrums like a five-year-old. He was spanking doors. He wanted to be moved to a nice, flat seat. Yes. He said because the seat is already free, Why isn't he allowed to sit there?

25:39So we were trying to give him food. He started swearing at us. He just threw a major tantrum. He's like, this is so unfair, but the seat is free. And I'm like, but people paid to sit in the comfort seat if you knew you had back problems. And I tried to move him to a more comfortable seat, give him more pillows, but nothing was ever enough. Like, Ali's very right. When adults feel more entitled than any child you could ever have. Fascinating then to hear that it's the adults who are the major problem, not the kids themselves. Mapule, Cindy and Ali. I should mention that Ali hosts a podcast featuring the experiences of flight attendants.

26:14It's called The Red Eye. Our thanks to them and to all of our guests this week. And if you're flying with young children soon, good luck. You will get through it. I'm James Reynolds. You've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.