From American Pastor to Whirling Dervish

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:45The musicians are warming up their instruments. They're gathering, and you can see Hakan is putting the pudra, the talcum powder, down on the area where they're turning, and it makes it easier to turn instead of just working on concrete. And these are some of the semazins coming here. I'm Emily Wither and for this edition of Heart and Soul from the documentary on the BBC World Service, I'm in Konya in Turkey's central Anatolia region. I'm about to watch a group of semazan or whirling dervishes perform a semah ritual, a form of whirling meditation and prayer used by the Mevlavi order. There's something special about being able to do semah in the shadow of Rumi's tomb, to be here with guests from around the world that have come here looking for love, looking for something.

1:37He's just chasing away a cat that's gone on to the spot where the dervishes will be performing this evening.

1:48Welcome. Which language do you speak? English. English, welcome. Welcome. Many people will think of the whirling dervishes as a performance, and there are obviously people coming to watch tonight. But the dervishes are not whirling for us, they're not dancing for us. No, we're not dancing at all, actually. We are doing sema, we are making sema. The dervishes start with their hands crossed over their chest, and then as the Semazans ask permission to whirl, they begin to whirl, and then gradually, like a flower, open their arms up to the sky. And the symbolism is that from the right hand we receive from God, passes through the heart, and with the left hand we give to the world.

2:33So as they turn, they're giving blessings to everybody. And that's how I like to describe it as blessings. It could be love, it could be justice, all the things that God has to give. This is the journey our souls need to make to receive from Allah and to give to everybody. But what we tend to do is to take from Allah, demand from Allah and keep to ourselves. And so that's why the journey of the dervish is so important, because it's about receiving and giving.

3:05And I'm here to learn about Ismail Fenter's journey to becoming a whirling dervish. Raised in Los Angeles, he was once a Christian pastor, before converting to Islam, changing his name from Craig, and uprooting his life after falling in love with the teachings of Mevlana Jaladin Rumi, a 13th century Persian poet, Islamic scholar and Sufi mystic, whose writings on divine love and the soul's journey toward God has inspired people across faiths. They transformed Ismail's life. He moved to Konya permanently four years ago, the spiritual centre of Rumi's legacy and his final resting place. After Rumi's death in 1273, his followers founded the Mevlevi Order, dedicated to his teachings.

3:56They're famous for these Sema ceremonies, where dervishers dressed in white robes and tall felt hats slowly spin in prayer, with their arms outstretched towards the sky.

4:15It's not just when we open our arms, it's like a rose. No, it's like a bird flying. It's like an angel flying. Rumi tells us in his stories, he says, don't you know that you're like a falcon? You're like a falcon who sits on the arm of the Shah. And you should be able to fly free, not living in the ruins. So yes, Sema is also like that. There are moments where you fly. has moments where you can transcend. And you go up, and sometimes you stay up for a while, but then you come back down. But that moment you go up, you've gone to that place of no place, if that makes sense. And at the same time, you're aware, because there are other people around you, you know there are people around you, and yet you're not there, and yet you are.

5:01So there is a mystical moment that can happen in making Sama.

5:09Semah Miza Hosh Geldeniz. So, my dear friends, guests, lovers of Hazreti Mevlana, welcome to our Semah and Aga Irani. Ha-Ming Joss, Hosh Abedin. Ha-Ming Joss. Ha-Ming Joss.

5:30On every turn we are saying Allah's name. All you hear is Allah's name. What does the word Semah mean? to hear. It means to listen. In Judaism, it's Shema. Same thing. Listen, Israel. Ha, Sema is the same word to listen. But what do you hear in Sema? In yourself, you hear Allah, Allah in yourself. But you also hear everybody around you saying Allah, Allah.

6:03The dervishes are also wearing a tall hat. What does that symbolize? The tall hat is called a sikke, S-I-K-K-E, which represents our gravestone. So it is about dying before you die. It is about the death of the ego, the death of the self. The Sufi word is called fana, which means to annihilate the ego. What does it mean to be a dervish today? What practices do you think are essential? To be a dervish today is different than it was in the past because we live normal lives today. The head of the Meblevi Order says it's important for us to be part of society, to look like part of society so we don't wear special clothes around the street, wear robes and things like that.

6:51We dress normally. So what's important is to have a daily practice, daily practice of prayer, daily practice of what we have a book of daily recitations called Evradi Sherefe, the blessed words, if you will, simple translation, which is praise to Allah, praise to the Prophet, sections from Quran, and then to be of service, be of service to your family, to yourself and to the world.

7:28Ismail stumbled across the writings of Rumi at a bookstore back home. He was at a point in his life where he'd walked away from his role as a university teacher and Christian minister, followed by a top job as a music producer in Hollywood. He felt a deep spiritual void and wasn't sure what came next. He was drawn to Rumi's work and later met S.N. Chelebi, Rumi's 22nd generation granddaughter, at an event in the US. It led him to Konya on a visit that would change his life.

8:06We're just entering the most important and spiritual site for followers of Rumi, and tens of thousands of people make a pilgrimage here every year to visit his tomb, which sits in a grand mausoleum surrounded by rose gardens. First time I visited Konya was in December of 2005, And one morning, we came over here super early in the morning, and we came into the courtyard here at Rumi's Museum, and Farukh Khem Dem Chelebi, the Makam Chelebi of the Mevlavi Order, the head of the Mevlavi Order, grabbed me when I just met him, and he took me by the arm and brought me around the backside of the museum, and I want to show that to you right now where that is.

8:52I'll open the gate for you. And this used to be what was called the Niyaz Pendulsi, something like the window of desire or the window of intent. So he said, we come here to make our desires, our wishes known to God. And he was standing there praying, and there was snow on the ground, but I noticed over in the rose garden, there was a single rose popping through the snow, and it caught my eye. And so then I turned back to him, and he was finishing his prayers, and he came down the steps and said, okay, now it's your turn. And I was kind of stunned because I don't know what to do. I mean, first time here ever.

9:29So I slowly walked up the steps.

9:34I stood in front of the window, and I didn't know what to say or do, so I just got quiet and stood still. Then all of a sudden, I felt like, bam! Like an arrow got shot into my heart. I don't know how to describe it. And I was kind of stunned, and I began to cry. And that was my first experience here. And I knew at that moment that I needed to be here. Everything that I had done in the past was like preparation for this moment and what was coming afterwards. And I said, I need to become a Mevlavi. And to be Mevlavi, to be a follower of Rumi, of Hazreti Mevlana, I need to become a Muslim. Because the Mevlavi order is an Islamic order.

10:18I said, fine, that's what I'm going to do. And then when I returned to America, alhamdulillah, I became a Muslim. Somebody said, that's the way I need to go. So I truly understand his life. So I truly understand what he's teaching. Yeah, I mean, that's how I first discovered Rumi is some of his love poetry. I mean, it's really beautiful, isn't it? Yeah, it really is beautiful. I mean, yes, there are all of those lovely love poems and love quotes, but he writes about the battle of the Moses and Pharaoh inside ourselves. You want peace? You have to start with peace inside yourself. People don't want to hear that.

10:53Look in the mirror and change who you are. He actually says, don't change the histories. Change yourself. You can't have divine love until you actually go higher and higher. Most people think the love we experience down here at the lowest level is what love is. I had a teacher years ago say to me, the love that we experience in this life is like the millionth photocopy of an original photocopy. divine love, the same kind of love that God shows us for other people, then you need to get rid of all of your desires, lust, anger, prejudice, all of those things so that we can actually experience what the true love is.

11:36Otherwise you can't. There's a veil up from this world, just a veil. That was how Rumi's teachings drew Ismail into Islam and the Mevlovi order. For others, his poetry is something they weave into their own existing faith or philosophy. But Ismail says moving to Konya and converting to Islam brought him spiritually closer to Rumi. You see it walking around the museum and seeing people from all over the world coming here and feeling this thing that he has, whatever that is, that still exists in this place. and to be able to come here any day that I want and to get near Rumi, get whatever is spilling out of him onto me, washing over me.

12:21People from all over the world do that. They come here wanting, wanting, and wanting. They don't know what they're wanting. Maybe it's love. Maybe it's healing. But they come, and even if they don't know why they're here, they're still getting that. So there's something special about this place. The entrance of the museum says, those who enter here leave complete. Do you feel that as a foreigner you were accepted into the Mevlevi order or was it difficult at first? No, that's what's amazing. When I came here I felt like I was home. I remember sitting in a restaurant, maybe my second trip here, my third trip here, and a young dervish looked at me and said, do you have any family?

13:07and I said, well, my mother and father have passed away. And he looked at me and said, well, we're your family now. And that's how I've always felt from the moment I got here.

13:22If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

14:03You're listening to Heart and Soul on the BBC World Service with me, Emily Wither. I've come to Konya in Turkey, a place of pilgrimage for followers of Jaladin Rumi, to meet a former Christian minister who left his life in the US to become a whirling dervish in the Mevlavi order, a Sufi Muslim brotherhood rooted in Rumi's teachings. Would you like tea or coffee? Yeah, I'd have tea.

14:34How much of a role did faith play in your childhood? My family, I would say we went to church every Sunday, and I was in religious parochial school every day. So I was memorizing the Old Testament, memorizing the New Testament, doing religious studies every day, singing in the choir, growing up in a church. So faith was always important to me. So when you finished school and you went on to university, did you feel like your family had a path for you already? So it was really my grandmother that wanted me to go into the ministry. I wanted to be a musician. I was already knocking on doors and doing things musically, but it was grandma that really wanted me to go into the ministry.

15:17And so I went into the religious school system, but the more I studied, the more it was like I was questioning, not what I believed, but it was questioning what the text was saying. Because I'm a critical scholar, and then I went to University of Michigan for a doctoral program with higher critical studies. And my research was also taking me to a path where I was like, you know, I'm not believing this New Testament stuff about Jesus. Not what he did, but about who they said he was. Because if If you've read the Old Testament with critical eyes, you can't take it for granted what's being said in the Gospels and accept it blindly.

16:01You say, huh, Matthew's doing one thing, Mark's doing something else, Luke's doing something else, John's doing something else, and they're not telling the same story, but they're all trying to prove a point to prove what they believed. It's not what I was believing based on the research. So you were on the path at that point in university to become a Lutheran minister. What happened? Right, correct. So while I'm at seminary, the church was going through all these changes, and even they changed the language of the creed, they updated the creed. Instead of one holy Christian and apostolic church, it said one holy Catholic and apostolic church.

16:38And while I was at seminary, I also was serving as a campus minister at the Jesuit University in St. Louis. Well, if I'm in this world, maybe I need to be looking at being a Jesuit, because they were smart, they were intellectual, and maybe I need to be looking at that, while at the same time, on the other hand, doing my own research and going, I'm not sure I understand what this is all about, what the New Testament is writing, when the Old Testament says something very clearly. There's only one God, right? Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad. Listen, Israel, there's only one God. Okay, I understand how the Trinity comes into manifestation.

17:19I understand logically how that works, but I had issues with that. After seminary, I remember having a conversation with the president of the seminary and saying, I can't do this. I can't do this. For many Christians, the Trinity is central to their faith. But for Ismail, it became one of the reasons he started to look elsewhere. and eventually he walked away from it all to pursue his long-held dream of working in music. When I look at you The world I knew gets smaller And the night just drifts away Wound up coming back to Los Angeles to do a doctoral program in music at the University of Southern California, working in Hollywood and finding that I loved music, but I didn't like the people I was working with because they were all egotistical and all about themselves.

18:16And the music as joy was disappearing and was becoming work and having to work with people that were just mean, self-centered people. Not everybody was that way. But if you're going to succeed in Hollywood, you have to have a lot of oftentimes misplaced ego. So it was in that journey I started to search because I was feeling empty and I needed to find the path for me to go. I've got some tea arriving now. Were you happy in those years? Because you were finally doing what it was that you always wanted to do, which was music. Yeah, I had happy moments. I was really happy. Teşekkür ederim. I had happy moments.

19:03I had some really happy times. I had successful shows I was doing. I was Musical Director of the Year one year in Los Angeles. I had lots of things doing music. But in the end, my spiritual side was drying up. And I didn't know what to do. All of the outside pressure was getting to me. And the reality is I had a couple experiences where I was so disappointed in the person in front of me but I said I just can't do this anymore this is ridiculous where's my joy for music where's my love for music and so I walked away from the music business wow that must have been a really big decision do you think you walked away from it because a big part of your your spiritual life was just not not there yes I think so I think it's absolutely right I was in that in-between spot that we often are in our lives, because I must have been 40-ish at that time, kind of like trying to figure out what the next thing was, since I walked away from A, I walked away from B, and so now what do I do?

20:04Can you remember when the first time was that you discovered some of Rumi's work? Was it in this period or earlier? Yeah, I'm sure it was in this period. It had to be. Some of you remember Borders Bookstores, you know, I would sit in there and browse through the bookshelves, And I ran across this itty-bitty book by Coleman Barks called The Essential Rumi. And it had all these wonderful, for lack of better words, love quotes in it. Also with a language I didn't fully understand. Because now he's using images from Islam in the Middle East that I really didn't get. But I began looking and exploring.

20:44and that was probably the beginning of finding the food that I needed to find. Probably, it was the beginning. Why do you think his work resonated with you so much? What I have come to believe over the years is that Rumi calls us, he calls us and we don't even know we're being called sometimes. We don't know that we need to be called but we hear something, you know, what does the Bible say? that still subtle voice, that small voice talking inside us that kind of tickles us and says, come and learn a little bit more. And I think that's what was happening to me because what it did, it opened up my traveling to learn and following people and searching deeper, like, who do I need to study with?

21:31Who is this person? Why are you here? Let me come find you and listen to you. It would have been really easy just to become a real arrogant, egotistical person, to become successful in the music business. But what Rumi talks about is what we need to do is train our soul, train our ego, and so that it can raise itself up to a higher level so that it can be, for lack of better words, purified, I say that in the best sense, from jealousy, anger, bias, prejudice, hatred, selfishness. Take your pick. all of those things that keep us from seeing who that person is in front of us, and ourselves for that matter.

22:24I've returned to the Rumi Museum and Mausoleum with Ismail. The site dominates the skyline with a fluted dome of turquoise tiles. We're here to take a look at Rumi's most famous work, the Masnavi, a vast series of spiritual poetry designed as a guide for the soul's journey toward unity with God. With the blessing of Rumi's descendants, Ismail is now translating it into English, creating what he calls a modern reader's guide for anyone who wants to really get inside Rumi's teachings. Every Friday at dawn, he shares that work with students from around the world in an online class. We've been teaching the Masnevi here in Konya for three years online to an international audience.

23:14And we're just through only the first book, and there's six books. So this is, you know, if God gives us permission to do this work, it's an eight-, nine-, ten-year project to get through it with a new translation. God willing, inshallah we say and to hopefully change the hearts and the lives of people that not only hear it but to the people around them that will change their hearts and lives as well.

23:43It's amazing to be here. What exactly are we looking at? We're standing right now of course in front of Rumi's sanduqa in front of Rumi's coffin but right here around the corner is the original Masnavi the oldest manuscript of the Masnavi that exists. These books are absolutely beautiful. They are painted very intricately. It's a beautiful, beautiful book, and it's open to the first page, which is ornamented. The inside is not ornamented. It's columns of Persian text, and it's basically 25 ,000 verses of rhymed couplets. Masnavi is the name of the pattern of poetry. It's a rhymed poetry. What people don't know is that in that poetry, in the form itself are embedded spiritual secrets.

24:35And if you try to translate it in poetry in English, you know, into Jack and Jill went up the hill poetry, you lose all that meaning that's embedded in the poetry. And it's a manual for how to change ourselves so we can change our lives, so we can change the world. And so it's a huge responsibility to be able to interpret and read the Mass Navi because interpreting means interpret it correctly. And I imagine the translations must be quite challenging at times. Do you get strength from coming here? Yeah, I often actually, when I come here, I stop at another grave over closer to the entrance. I actually come in here.

25:20One of the strange things, or I say strange, but humbling honors that I've been given. Recently, the head of the Mevlavi order, the Makam Chalabi, Farooq Hemdim Chalabi, gave me a, we say a destarli sika. a sikha, the brown hat that's worn with a green turban around it, to be a Mesnevi sheikh, to be, they call it Mesnevi Han, a reader of the Mesnevi. And the inspiration for the Mesnevi is this person here, Chalabi Hussamuddin. He and Rumi sat together for years, Rumi reciting and Chalabi Hussamuddin recording, what Rumi was dictating in a sense, going back, correcting it, fixing the grammar, and then reading it back to Hazreti Mevlana, to Rumi.