How Russian AI targets news organisations

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1:00Find out more at polandyourplacetogrow.com. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

1:14Estás escuchando The Fifth Floor. The Fifth Floor dinliyorsunuz. Vizim leka do. Tomiha ektai The Fifth Floor, Farnak Amidi Sobat. This is The Fifth Floor. at the heart of global storytelling with BBC journalists from all around the world. I'm your host, Farhanak Amidi.

1:45Sifting news for what is real and what is fake has always been a part of journalists' work. But what if certain AI and disinformation campaigns exist with the precise purpose of ensnaring journalists and news organizations in a maze of fact-checking? Damien Charco from BBC Monitoring is with me to talk about recent Russian interference in elections in Europe and what its ultimate aim might be. Damien, welcome to the fifth floor. It's great to have you. Thank you for having me. So, Damien, there have been stories circulating online about celebrity trips to Ukraine and violence in the elections in Moldova.

2:31What do these kind of stories have in common? Well, we've noticed in Russian independent media reporting that a lot of these are being circulated by bots. A bot on social media usually refers to an account that is not genuine, doesn't represent a genuine entity or person. Typical ways to spot them would be a digitally generated profile picture, a lack of credible description as to who this represents. Oftentimes it means that the account follows very few, if any, people and isn't followed by anyone either. And the times at which it's active coincide with bursts in activity from other similar accounts.

3:17In the last year alone, they've been active around the German parliamentary election, the Polish presidential election and the U.S. presidential election just over a year ago now. So let's unpack these stories a little. Can you give us some examples of some of these videos? One video, which has been debunked in Western media, appeared to show a French professor who introduced himself and then launched into a bit of a tirade about the Moldovan government, President Maya Sandu and her pro-EU government, and alleged ways in which she's keeping her opponents out of the election, which is a Kremlin narrative targeting Maya Sandu.

4:00So this video was fake? Yes, he's since disavowed the comments that he appeared to make in that video. And what seems to have happened is it's an AI edited video, which takes his genuine remarks, which he as a professor of geology made about geology in France. And literally, I suppose, put words in his mouth to criticize the pro-EU government in Moldova. And another example was about the celebrities being flown to Ukraine. Yes. So this was another video, this time spoofing the style of the Wall Street Journal. So presenting it as a report by the Wall Street Journal, but making claims that the Wall Street Journal did not make, which is that USAID was used to send celebrities to Ukraine.

4:54Some of them seem to originate in the Russian segment of Telegram, but they are repurposed and they are reposted on X, formerly Twitter, and recently Blue Sky as well. But what are they trying to achieve, really? The thing with some of these is that the volume of attention and traffic they generate is often not very high because they may not be designed to do that. They may be designed to inundate fact checkers, get the attention of Western media. they will seek out the social media presence of news organizations or news personalities, people who are fact checkers, and we'll tag them and we'll ask them to fact check this sometimes in the comment section.

5:37So you get into this vicious cycle of just fact checking. Yeah, I suppose so. I think it appears that something, an operation like this, especially if when using bots and especially being able to scale that up with the advent of AI means that it can be a multi-pronged operation. There can be many objectives. Generally, polluting the information field and chipping away at confidence in trusted Western media, established Western media, is something that would benefit the Kremlin. What do we know about the networks producing this kind of content? Yeah, well, But by its nature, they're opaque because they do try and present the information that they're putting out there as coming from legitimate or trusted Western sources.

6:24International observers have labeled some of these campaigns as Matryoshka, which is a Russian nesting doll. That is the campaign that churns out these videos and some have called it Dvojnik, which means doppelganger in Russian, which is a similar operation, but uses cloned websites. So it mimics the visual identity of Western media websites. And how do these bots work? I suppose they work in two stages. The first stage takes one set of bot accounts, which are referred to as seeders, who put the information out there. Then there is another collection of accounts which pick up the information. They're called quoters, and they try and amplify it.

7:08Or they target Western media, Western fact checkers to, I suppose, inundate them or trick them and embarrass them into falling for what eventually we can understand and reveal is Kremlin or Russia-aligned propaganda. And what kind of uptake do the stories they create get? Each post doesn't get a lot of natural reach. And some, even to the naked eye, would be apparent disinformation. But it may be worth it to the operation for them to just have one, quote unquote, hit every once in a while, which if quoted by a conspiracy account or if it manages to trick one credible news outlet could get millions of views.

7:55In my experience as a journalist, when a piece of fake news goes out, no matter how many times it's been fact-checked and debunked, that fake news stays out there. People keep on referring to it. Yes, that's definitely a danger. And I think some of the think tanks and the observers that have dealt with this topic have posted advice, specifically to tech companies and to social media, to be more vigilant and to put policies in place to tackle that sort of thing. And in the case of videos where a person may be making remarks that they didn't necessarily make to alert people to that, that their visual identity has been stolen.

8:39What are the most effective ways to combat them? That is a tricky question. And usually the platforms themselves, the platforms that would host the bots, would potentially have the influence to simply take them down. The EU did introduce sanctions against entities engaging in these disinformation campaigns in 2023, but they're still ongoing. So it seems like that maybe wasn't entirely effective. The way in which we consume information and the way in which we communicate with changes in technology changes. So disinformation in the ways in which it reaches us changes as well. I suppose it means that we have to continue to be vigilant and take that vigilance through with us wherever we are picking up our information.

9:31And our job is becoming more and more difficult as well. Yeah. Damien is going to stay with us as we head to a story from BBC Vietnamese about a woman commonly known as the Bomb Lady.

9:51Earlier this year, rumors began circulating on social media that the so-called bunker buster bombs used in the U.S.'s June attacks on Iranian nuclear sites were the work of a Vietnamese-American scientist called Anne Young, who had been awarded a medal by Donald Trump for her work. Pictures of her, apparently with Trump, were widely shared online. Tuong Le from BBC Vietnamese tracked An Yung down to verify these claims. So I decided to contact her to clarify the rumor circulating on social media that time. And she told me that they were completely false rumor. She's been retired for five years now, and she has had no contact with the White House or President Trump and had no involvement in the Iran bombing this past June.

10:44Fake news then. But we are going to pick up the real story of An Jung's life and how it influenced her eventual work with the American military. In 1975, the Vietnam War was in its final days and An Jung's family, high-profile scholars and public servants who had worked for royalty, were caught up in the fall of Saigon to North Vietnamese forces. Right before the fall of Saigon, her family escaped by helicopter piloted by her brother, who is Republic of Vietnam Air Force pilot, South Vietnam pilot. And then the helicopter landed on a South Vietnamese ship offshore. And her family and other Vietnamese people were drifted at sea for several days before they were allowed to dock at a U.S.

11:39naval base in Philippines. And Thuong, how old was she at this stage? So she was 15 years old. Her family was brought to the U.S. and she had to wait until early March 1976 to come back to school. And when she did finally begin school in the U.S., Anne knew only about 50 English words. And in Vietnam, she was like top student with many, you know, literature awards. But then when she moved to the U.S., she faced lots of discrimination. She was angry when she was teased by other students. So she told herself to study very hard to outdo those people who bullied her, and so that no one could look down on Vietnamese people.

12:30Anne had dreamt of being a writer, but now, because she was still learning English, her father told her to switch to studying maths and science. His approach worked and graduated in 1982 with a degree in chemical engineering and then pursued a job working in weapons development for the American Navy. So when she joined the military, it must have been very unusual because she was a woman, and not only a woman, but a migrant woman, an Asian woman. Yes, so she described her workplace as male-dominated. and after that when she moved to the Pentagon, she told me that there was not a single woman working for the deputy chief of staff alongside her.

13:18She was the only woman, the only Asian, the youngest, and didn't know how to shoot a gun. So she faced lots of discrimination. But despite the discrimination, Anne succeeded, rising to manage programs devoted to explosives and undersea weapons. Then, in 2001, a month after the 9-11 attacks in America, the Pentagon requested that Anne begin developing the thermobaric bomb. Normally, this kind of project would take years, but Anne was given months. America wanted to use the bomb in its war in Afghanistan. She told me that all of the scientists at that time understood that compressing a five-year program into just a few weeks or months was a huge risk, and the chance of success were extremely low, but they were all determined to make it happen no matter what.

14:18So to shorten the timeline drastically, she and her team of nearly 100 scientists overlapped multiple phases of the project. And as a result, within just 76 days, An-Yung and her team developed the first BLU-118B thermobaric bomb. And she explained that the thermobaric explosive have a long-range effect. So even if it detonated near a cave entrance, the heat and pressure can reach deep inside. These are the bombs the American military used to penetrate the cave systems where Al-Qaeda were dug in during the war in Afghanistan. But I wanted to understand more about what drives Anne. You know, she's, as a person who had witnessed war, the devastation that war creates, and as a person who was displaced because of war and became a refugee.

15:17Did she explain to you why she wanted to work in the military? Having grown up at mid-war and as a refugee, she told me that she would never forget the tragic circumstance of the South Vietnamese soldier running out of weapons and ammunition when the U.S. cut the military aid. That's why she never wants the current U.S. soldiers who are protecting her family to be put in the same situation. Did she ever tell you how she felt about, like, the bombs that she has developed are used in wars? How does that make her feel? She told me that, you know, like, she viewed weapons strictly as a tool, but the tools are flat resort.

16:04so she explained that the weapon just as in martial arts the martial artists are taught to use their skill for self-defense and to protect others not to dominate or harm people so you know the weapon should be used in a way that is ethically responsibly and only when absolutely necessary state-run media in vietnam depict her as a villain criticizing her for being an unethical scientist, for creating instruments of destruction like that. As you may know, in Vietnam, most of the media are state-owned media and there is no independent media. That's why me and my colleagues, reporters for BBC Vietnamese, are based in Bangkok.

16:55So the Vietnamese mainstream media barely says anything about her or the way they portray her. It's like the way they portray other Vietnamese bold people in not really positive ways. They're like considered traitors? Yeah, kind of. What kind of a woman is she when you sit in front of her and talk to her? So my first impression was, because I told you when I heard the name The Bomb Lady, I imagined a Hollywood figure. But then when I saw her on the screen, She's like 65 years old, but she looks ways younger, like a tiny lady, 150 meters or something like that, like same height like me. She's very kind.

17:43She told me that the way she raised her four children when I was young, her husband and her would just cut all the violent scenes, even in Disney movies, because they thought that violence is not the answer. violence is no, no. That was Thuong Le from BBC Vietnamese based in Bangkok. So Damien, had you ever heard of the bomb lady? I never had, no. What did you think of her and the story in general? She sounds like an impressive person and I really like the juxtaposition between the expectation of what the bomb lady would look like and in fact that she's still an impressive figure but physically unassuming.

18:24And the fake news part. Yeah, it exists everywhere. Thank you, Damien. Thanks for coming in. Thank you for having me. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. This is The Fifth Floor, and I'm Farina Khamidi.

18:46In many cultures, pigeons are a symbol of love and harmony. In Persian and Iranian culture, kabutar or pigeon is a symbol of luck and love. And in many parts of the country, you can see tall pigeon towers known as Burjakaftar, which provide safe shelters for these birds. In megacities like Mumbai and Delhi in India, pigeons seem to thrive. But in recent years, they've become a bit of a problem and authorities had to intervene. Sumit Hapal has been reporting on this story for BBC India. Across Indian cities, pigeons are a very common sight. And there are also very common public feeding areas where people will just buy the grain for them.

19:34They will be feeding them in these public corners. The word for the pigeon in Hindi is kabooter. And these pigeon feeding spots are called kabooter khanas. And these spaces have also become iconic heritage structures. And they are looked at as charitable spaces where communities could come and they can donate the grain and they can spend some time with the pigeons and feed them. In India and in a lot of South Asian cultures as well, pigeons have always symbolized peace. The people I spoke to, they told me that the tradition of loving pigeons goes back to centuries. In fact, in the Indian tradition, a lot of the emperors, a lot of the kings, they were using pigeons as messengers.

20:26In India, another interesting aspect is that there is a lot of belief that is associated with the pigeons. The belief is that by feeding pigeons, people will attract a lot of good luck. They are doing a good deed for the community. They are doing a good deed in society. And that will some way or the other give them some benefit or bring them some luck. So this is also one of the reasons why a lot of people believe they want to feed the pigeons. A lot of people also train and keep these pigeons in multiple quantities. It's known as Kabutar Bazi where you train the pigeons and they do certain tricks.

21:09Every time that people want to represent visually Indian cities, a shot of the pigeons is a very common visual sight. So pigeons are a deep part of Bollywood, of our films, of our music and pop culture in general. In fact, one of the films in Bollywood popularized a song called Masakali, which was dedicated to a white pigeon and the freedom and the peace that it symbolized.

21:40The end of July and in August, there was a big judgment that came from one of the high courts of the country in Mumbai, banning all pigeon feeding activity. And this was not just in Mumbai, there were other cities which followed suit, and they were also contemplating similar bans. And at the heart of this conflict was a very central question, one which pitted health against heritage and these community practices. As far as the legal case is concerned, pigeons and their droppings were becoming very unsafe for people in the surrounding areas. And the population of pigeons has also grown really, really substantially over the last few years.

22:24It's risen more than 150 percent. Since the year 2000, it is the biggest jump among all the birds, leaving homes and public spaces with droppings, as each bird can produce up to 15 kilograms a year. And it all started when people became more cognizant of the fact that these pigeon droppings and the overpopulation of pigeons was directly linked to some of the most dangerous respiratory diseases and it was causing an issue to people around in these areas. Experts also point out that these droppings contain at least seven types of zoonotic pathogens that can cause diseases such as pneumonia, fungal infections and even lung damage in humans.

23:1275-year-old Delhi resident Nirmal Kohli had been complaining of persistent cough for a very long time and she said that she was experiencing a lot of difficulty in breathing for the past few years.

23:31Her son told us that the doctors told the family that it is because of pigeon droppings that Nirmal was experiencing severe respiratory distress, which had caused her lung to shrink. And last year, an 11-year-old boy in Delhi had died due to the hypersensitivity which was caused because of this pneumonitis, a disease that causes the inflammation in lungs. Doctors said that the reason was persistent exposure to pigeon droppings and their feathers, which is very common in Indian apartment complexes, in parks where a lot of children play. So these are some of the concerns that led civic associations in Mumbai and Delhi to impose the feeding ban and launch a drive to demolish the feeding centres.

24:21Demolitions are currently on hold, but Bombay High Court has dismissed a plea against the feeding ban. citing public health as paramount. And there is an order which is very strict and it says that any kind of feeding action or an illegal feeding will be fined or there will be action against such activities. We saw that in a lot of these pigeon feeding spots, they had covered these spots with tarpaulin sheets. They had erected some structures around them to stop people from accessing these places. And because of this, we saw a lot of protests They were animal lovers, bird lovers and religious communities who got involved and they were protesting against the decision to ban pigeon feeding.

25:06So we met a local Delhi resident, Syed Ismat, who had been feeding pigeons and these birds for over 40 years. On his terrace, he had two big cages where over 200 pigeons were kept. They were let out every morning or in the evenings to go around and then they would come back to the same terrace. He was feeding them, he was taking care of them.

25:38He said that they are the most innocent of all creatures and all that they are asking for is kindness in return. To understand what Delhi, which is the national capital, was doing about this issue, we went and met the mayor. We want to feed the whole Delhi. Mayor Raja Iqbal Singh told me that the love for birds cannot come at the cost for other people's well-being. Feeding spots, they often turn dirty, which leads to foul smells. It can lead to infection and pests. And the Delhi municipal corporations and the authorities, they were trying to work in order to find a solution to minimize this feeding and also to strike a balance between this love for birds and public health.

26:26There are also people who are trying to find the middle ground in this debate. Ujwal Agrain, who represents the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, PETA in India, he suggests that allowing pigeon feeding only during the set morning or evening hours could actually be one of the solutions.

26:49He said that it could give people enough time to clean these spots and for civic authorities to also maintain hygiene in these areas. And this way, a middle ground can be sought where we can respect both public health and the emotional bonds that people share with the bird. Sumit Hapal reporting for BBC India. And if you want to let us know what you think about the show or you have questions for our amazing correspondents, send an email to The Fifth Floor at bbc.co.uk. That's the fifth floor, all one word, at bbc.co.uk.

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