Hungary: The alternative to Orban

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0:48I'm Nick Thorpe and this is the documentary, The Alternative to Orbán, from the BBC World Service. In January this year, Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orbán held his annual international press conference. It's almost the only time that he takes questions from foreign journalists and critical media in Budapest. Elections in Hungary are just round the corner. The leader of the opposition, Peter Magyar, a former member of Orbán's own party, Fidesz, is currently leading in the polls. So I thought I'd try to find out how Orbán really feels about the man gunning for his job. Prime Minister, in the spirit of this season of goodwill, please could you tell us the three things that you admire or respect most about Peter Maguire?

1:45Thank you.

1:51He left the feeders. That's all. Later that day, Peter Magyar held a press conference of his own to match his rival, and I asked him what he respects about Orbán. Having seen Orbán's response, he was prepared. Magyar said he admired Orbán's first term in government from 1998 to 2002, his record on immigration and the fact that they both love football. And that evening, he posted the two exchanges on Facebook side by side. The video has since had more than a million views. In the comments, Madhya's official account exhorts his followers, share it and feel the difference. Since Fidesz swept to power in 2010, no one has posed a serious electoral threat to Viktor Orban.

2:53Voters credited him for a strong recovery from the financial crash and keeping out irregular migrants He pushed through a brand new Hungarian constitution which helped consolidate his party's power In the last parliamentary election, Fidesz won yet another landslide victory which Orban himself described as So big you can see it from the moon But in the four years since then, the economy has faltered and discontent in Hungary has grown. With less than three months to the election, poll after poll suggests that Peter Magyar has convinced a significant part of the population that Orbán's 16th year in power could also be his last.

3:39Hi, I'm Peter Magyar, 44 years old, the leader of the TISA party, the main opposition party in Hungary.

3:55So who is Peter Magyar and where did this upstart politician come from? A good place to start is here in Kalmanmigsad Square, close to the centre of Budapest, and the elite Catholic boys' secondary school where he studied for four years. It was a very elite high school in Hungary. I can tell you. Many former prime ministers graduated there. It could be strange, but I was very much interested in politics in my early ages as well. My family are lawyers. Everybody is lawyers. So my mom is a judge or was a judge. My father was a lawyer. My grandfather was a Supreme Court lawyer. The group to which I belonged and Peter Magyar belonged were especially politically interested.

4:45This is Agostón Mraz. He's a political analyst and a director of the pro-government think tank Nezöpont. And a former classmate of Peter Möller. And our secondary school was a Catholic one and belonged, so to say, to the strongholds of the conservative circles. And therefore, Viktor Orbán visited our secondary school. He represented for us a totally new country, a conservative and modern country. And during our four years in secondary school, he became prime minister. Victor Orban first served as prime minister from 1998 to 2002, then didn't return to power until 2010. While the young Orban ruled the country, he was only 34, the young Peter Magyar got stuck into his law degree at the newly founded Peter Pazmán Catholic University.

5:42Peter Magyar had very different hair back then. We are talking late 90s, early 2000s, so the spikes, you remember. It's like German techno kind of haircut. This is Sándor Eszik, a lawyer and author of one of Hungary's most popular political substanks. Peter Magyar was a year above me, with a lot of people who are now cabinet ministers and other leading figures of Fidesz's party. So the law school at Peter Pazman University was like a seedbed for the new generation of Fidesz. Peter Magyar, like most of his fellow students at the university, was devastated when Fidesz lost in 2002 and promptly joined the party, one which Viktor Orban now set about reshaping to become an invincible political force.

6:35Orban stormed back to power in 2010 with a strong mandate for change. Leader of Conservative Fidesz Viktor Orban said that Hungarians had voted to defeat hopelessness. Flag-waving Fidesz supporters danced late into the night in Virashvati Square. This was the biggest victory of any party in the 20 years since democracy was restored in Hungary. Magyar, unlike a lot of other people from Pazmány, didn't go to the first line of Fidesz politics. He became one of those background personalities. And during the last 15 years, I think Orbán started to tap into that resource, bringing in younger politicians like Judit Varga.

7:20Judit Varga was Peter Magyar's wife. They'd met at a party in 2005 and got married a year later. Peter Magyar's position got stronger within Fidesz. When they were looking for a new justice minister, it was his wife. He had a job, like Diak Hitelköspont, which is a student's loan organization. So he was destined to be living a successful life in the background and retire with a truckload of money. Everyone was expecting someone from Fidesz to make a break at some point, but it came as a complete surprise that he started to do what he's doing. In 2010, Fidesz won the election. You became a diplomat, working in the Hungarian permanent representation.

8:11During that time, the Orbán government passed many laws, it rewrote major parts of Hungary's legal and political system, and they centralised power. did you have any doubts then about what they were doing? At the beginning, no. Because, you know, we were after eight years of social liberal governance. They almost destroyed the country. Hungary had to go to the IMF. So the Hungarian economy just collapsed. And we thought at that time, and I was not alone with this sentiment, that it is necessary to stabilise the country, to help the people. So it was not obvious for me, especially, that it's something wrong and it's too much at the beginning.

9:01And then after a while I became more and more critic, openly and just among friends. Could you highlight your most importance of doubt or disillusion? Was there one moment or several moments? No, several moments. It was a long way. But I can tell you that the Fidesz we see today is very, very different. Fidesz I joined in 2002. But I was always told by the politicians that it is necessary to hold the position and to keep the power. So, OK, I accepted it for a time. But of course, the turning point was in 2024. Jó estét kívánok, köszöntönönyézenket, servusztok. In February 2024, a scandal broke.

9:53The president of Hungary, Katalin Novák, had granted a pardon to a man who'd helped cover up the sexual abuse of children in one of Hungary's state-run children's homes. The pardon had been countersigned by the Minister of Justice, Judit Varga, Magyar's wife. On the 10th of February, Novak and Varga resigned. In a party dominated by men, to see two of its leading women fall like skittles was a shock for everyone. By then, Peter Magyar and Judith Varga were freshly divorced. When they forced to abdicate Judith Varga, you know, mother of his children, even if it's an ex-wife, what I heard was that it was like the last drop.

10:40Magyar posted on Facebook. He wrote, I do not want to be part of a system in which the real people in charge hide behind women's skirts. The following day he appeared on Partizan, a popular left-leaning Hungarian political YouTube channel, and explosively criticized Fidesz, accusing them of cronyism and corruption. Szerusz Péter, thank you for listening to our show. Good evening, Szerusz. take us back to that moment did you know what you were going to say or not say no no it was not a planned move my mother called me not to go but i did deposit so i was why not what did your mother say because everybody knows the situation but knew the situation in hungary so it's not very safe to go against this government.

11:36That's why I mentioned during the interview that if I were Antal Rogen, who was the propaganda and minister responsible also for the secret service, I wouldn't do anything against Peter Magyar, because everybody will know who and what did and what not. And it was a good strategy because I'm still here and I'm still alive, which was not so obvious after the interview. In response, Fidesz ministers said Peter Magyar was a liar and was using the scandal to build himself a political career. You abandoned your own world, your old friends. How lonely was that? It was quite lonely at the beginning of the story, I can tell you.

12:23One third of my ex-friends are already ex-friends. And one third are still friends, but very much afraid to contact me directly. Because they are still in the system. And one third are not so much afraid, but it's hard to imagine that we can have a walk on the street. And when I was here in this house, lonely, I was wondering whether it was a good decision. Because I have also three kids. I love them very much. And I was very much worried about their future as well. It was a very, very, very, very negative period. But it was only two weeks. And then another story started.

13:12If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the documentary from the BBC World Service. So first I saw him in the interview, of course, as most of us in Hungary.

13:58On the partisan interview. On the partisan interview, yes. This is Anita Shepreni. She's a consultant who started working with Magyar in the early months of 2024. That interview was so authentic and so honest. Peter managed to voice the feeling of so many Hungarians. I felt that it doesn't only resonate with me, but practically with everyone I know. After coming out on Partizan, there was an outpouring of support for Madhya on social media. It soon evolved into feet on the street in the real world. I remember when we held this huge demonstration, and I had a long speech, as always. and I just decided in the middle of the speech that I will inform the public that we will go around the country.

14:50So after this demonstration, we will have a country tour. This friend called me that actually someone needs to help Peter because he will start traveling the country. Would I be interested? And I say, let's meet. And then we decide, we met, and then the campaign started. So there was not much talk. It just we went with the flow. Hungary's villages and small towns have always been Fidesz heartlands, so Tissa expected to enter hostile territory. Nobody knew at that time whether there will be any positive feeling in the countryside for an opposition politician. And I was very much worried. I remember for the first time we visited Bekeskanti, Gyula.

15:33It was the first scene of the country tour. and I was called by my colleague that, look, you wouldn't believe it, but there are around 1 ,000 people besides the castle in Yula. By the spring, Madjar had decided to turn his movement into a proper political party. As there was no time before the June elections to the European Parliament, he took over a dormant political party, Tissa. It was so spontaneous. We made the decisions from one day to the other. We never had two identical days. We arrived to a city, we met with the people, Peter is on the stage. While us in the background, we would organize the next city.

16:21That's how it looked from, let's say, 8, 8.30 in the morning until 8 or 9 in the evening. It was intense.

16:34I think I'm the people who have the most selfies in Hungary ever. And it's very strange. I don't know what they are doing with my selfies, but at least I was able to speak with them personally. Then June the 9th. Good evening. Results are beginning to arrive in this year's European elections. I was quite pessimistic. I'm always a bit pessimistic about results. Really? Yes. I would have been happy with four seats. When we saw seven seats, everyone screamed. This is unbelievable. It's something that no one would expect. Tissa's share of the vote was 29%, second only to Fidesz on 44. We sensed that something is changing on the tour.

17:24We sensed that the country is moving and changing. I had to deliver a speech around 11pm after the Prime Minister's speech. He was not so happy, I can tell you. Because maybe he also realised the situation. He's a clever guy. And in my mind, it was clear immediately that this is a turning point. And at that time, I felt that we will be able to defeat them for the next general election. It was clear for me. Two years on, the 2026 election campaign is now in full swing. Most polls put Tissa 8 to 12 points ahead, but Fidesz are fighting back hard. Their campaign often targets Peter, portraying him as unfit for office and literally as a psychopath.

18:18These arguments animate the Fidesz faithful. But for undecided voters, there's also the idea that Magyar is an opportunist, seizing on a moment of political instability out of ambition. not principle. The Fidesz Congress in mid-January brimmed over with enthusiasm and the expectation of victory. Top Fidesz woman, Alexandra Sentkiraí, told the crowd, we need the kind of leader who doesn't just react to events, but thinks ahead and is actually one step ahead of them all. Orban Victor. Later, the Fidesz minister and former friend of Peter Madjar, Gergely Goujas, spoke to the Assembly, saying that Hungarian's choice at the ballot box was between a prime minister who represents the national interest with every breath he takes, or one who first betrays his family, then betrays his country as an agent of Brussels.

19:24Tissa countered by contrasting the razumataz of the Fidesz event with a countryside campaign to deliver firewood to vulnerable people. I'm now in a single carriage train rattling through northern Hungary up into the hills. Peter Madja has said that his party will distribute food, hot drink and firewood to the poor and vulnerable people in different regions of Hungary. And where we're headed to probably fits that bill.

20:07When we arrive in the village of Matra Seles, we meet the local party activists. This is one of the prettiest, but poorest parts of Hungary, they tell me. Only the older people are still here. Hello, Magyar Peter. I can't see it. Oh, Mr. Lekitiz. Peter Maggio's just got out of his car. He's welcoming local activists of the party and they've welcomed him here in the street of the village with some hot wine and hot tea.

20:42So what's happening now is that Peter Maggio's climbed up actually onto the back of the truck and with other party activists, they're throwing firewood they've brought over the fence into Valeria's garden.

21:00From the village, we cadged a lift home in the battered Tisser pickup truck known affectionately as Richard. How is it to travel in the Richard? It's a magnificent machine. And here comes the singling song, How is to travel in the Richard? And I have the privilege to deliver the BBC guys. I guess if you win the election, they're going to give you some huge limousine. The sentence was wrong. It's not if, it's when. Back in Budapest, I wanted to speak to Krista Bordys, a writer and documentary filmmaker who runs an educational charity supporting children from Hungary's large and largely impoverished Roma minority.

21:50She advises Tissa on social policy and is standing as a candidate in the April election. Peter Magyar makes no secret of his right-wing roots, but his movement has captured the imagination of people across the political spectrum who oppose Orbán. I was curious to hear what drew a social activist like her to the Tissa party. So would you describe yourself really as a left-wing person? This is a very good question, because what I found most convincing in the Tissa party and in Peter Magyar's politics is precisely that it is ideology-free. Hungarian politics has been deliberately over-ideologized in order to divide people.

22:37The growing number of poor and the decline in equal access to education leads to the impoverishment of the entire country. What could your party, the TISA party, do to change that situation? The most important thing is that TISA has openly stated a systemic radical change is necessary. analyze the data, conduct research and base reforms on real evidence. The TISA party not having an ideology is nothing more than a protest party. Agostón Mraz again, a Fidesz loyalist and the director of Nezöpont in TZ, a think tank closely aligned with the government. If the protest is less than before, it is minimalizing the chances of a party which is nothing more than a protest party.

23:35I think in times of war, a politician like Viktor Orban, who is experienced and he would like to hold out Hungary from any kind of war, is more supported than somebody who is at least a question mark. Clearly, Peter Meder doesn't say that he is leading Hungary into a war, but for the Hungarians he is a big question because there is no experience with his promises. Back in 2009, when Orbán was last in opposition, he told me that if he won, he would replace the people in 12 ,000 public office roles. It was as though he knew their names. And this could be one of the biggest challenges facing TISA if they win.

24:22Would those 12 ,000 people who owe their careers to Fidesz cooperate? I asked Augusto Mraz. If the legitimacy of new government is not questioned, I think there will be cooperation from those people. But you very much emphasized that Peter Magyar and the TISA party would wish to have a liberal democracy in which the checks and balances work very well. And therefore I could imagine that there will be conflicts between, for example, the constitutional court and a new majority. And it would lead at the end to less stability. Therefore, it's a very strong argument in the hands of Viktor Orban that his own re-election is a guarantee for stability.

25:19I sometimes worry, as a citizen of this country, as well as a long-time observer of it, about how confident one can be in Hungarian democracy. I'm not happy that you are scared of the Hungarian situation. I think it's much better than you described. 2010, Viktor Orban got a very strong mandate to change everything. In the case of Peter Magyar, a huge amount of voters of TISA wants to get a similar change. But whether he will get a similarly strong mandate, I have my questions about. Even his voters don't think that Peter Magyar is a good guy, but they vote for him, whatever. András Poulay is an independent polling expert from the Publicus Agency.

26:09So if Fidesz tries to send a message that he is a bad guy, people think, yes, we know. And would you vote for such a guy? Yes, we would. Because we think he is the one, and he is the only one who can get to the Orbán for the country's sake. So could Orbán mobilise his own camp and win over just enough of the undecided to secure an astonishing fifth consecutive term in office? The day-to-day Fidesz campaign targets these voters, and as we have seen, not without effect. The TISA party is described often as a protest party. Is that a strength or a weakness? It's not a problem for me if the majority of the people are opponent, if they are criticizing the TISA party now and maybe later the TISA government.

26:58It's a good sign. If there is no critics, if there is no debate in your party, in the public, it's not a good sign in the democracy. This was the beginning of the end of the Fidesz. Criticism is a good thing. You will need compromises, not to rule the country, but to serve the country. I know them, I know their tricks, I know the communications, and I know that they are very much frightened. And, you know, whether I'm frightened or not, there is no other chance just to go forward and to win this election. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, not for Peter Mojder, but for the country. You've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service with me, Nick Thorpe.

27:49It was a Whistledown production. The producer was Artemis Irvin. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.