ICE in Minnesota

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the Apartment Bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:44Hello, I'm James Reynolds. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC OS Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences. And this time, we hear from the US state of Minnesota, where the immigration crackdown has left two people dead. When President Trump came back to power, he pledged arrests and mass deportations of illegal immigrants. On the ground, those efforts are led by ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement. ICE agents have the power to stop, detain and arrest people they suspect of being in the US illegally. Over the past year, ICE agents have become a visible force on American streets.

1:27accused of using aggressive tactics. They often cover their faces and have cast a shadow of fear over migrant communities. In the city of Minneapolis, some 3 ,000 agents deployed in Operation Metro Surge have made hundreds of arrests. We can hear from Jackie. Her parents came from El Salvador, but she herself was born in the United States, making her a US citizen. And firstly, you'll hear the voice of Chachi, not his real name. He's from Ecuador and is in the process of obtaining resident status. I come into my house and more than 20 ICE agents. We are scared. My daughter is starting to cry. I told my wife and my daughter, they need to go for basement.

2:14I open the door and they just ask me what country we are. And I told just, like, I'm from Ecuador, but I have my papers legally here, but they don't want to listen to that. And where did they take you to? They took to us in El Paso, Texas. They took you to El Paso in Texas? Yeah. That's a long way away from Minneapolis. I was there like five or six days. In the end, you were able to return to Minneapolis. you're with your wife and your daughter but you live in hiding yes because we are a skirt it's been hard because every day anyone who needs to work or needs to get groceries or needs to pick up medicine it's scary because we don't know who's going to come back who's gonna be taken it's just like a constant fear that we all live in that worries us because even though some of my siblings have papers as well it's still scary because ICE agents sometimes don't even care if you are a U.S.

3:34born citizen and they just assume that everybody that's a person of color is illegal, it's still scary because you can always run into them and fear that they could do something to you, even if you're a U.S. born citizen. And it's just really hard because that prevents a lot of my family members from doing their day-to-day things. It prevents them from being independent. It really downgrades them and it really like makes us feel like we can't even walk our own streets that we grew up in safely anymore. And it's just, it's just, it's just really hard. The experiences of Jackie and Chachi in Minneapolis.

4:22Tensions in the city have been high for weeks, with widespread protests culminating in the death of protester Alex Pretty. He was the second US citizen to be shot dead by immigration officials. Renee Nicole Goods, a mother of three, was killed just over two weeks earlier. My colleague Priya Rye brought together Jeff and Randy. They own the Prodigal Pub in Minneapolis. Jacob, who witnessed the aftermath of the most recent shooting, and Anne, who's the head of a local preschool, a block from where Alex Pretty was killed. I was devastated. I got a text from my daughter with the news and it's just so heartbreaking that, you know, it feels like we're under siege by our own federal government here in Minnesota.

5:07And it was just so heart wrenching. Yeah, I felt like I was in the Middle East, tear gas, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of ICE officers and Border Patrol, all clad out. Yeah, it was unlike anything I've, of course, I've ever experienced. Yeah, and I was actually on the scene when I found out that it was a shooting. I was walking to my grocery store. I ran into police tape on the way. And there were several other people there besides me. I was just there filming and trying to blow my whistle. But they were being, I'm talking about the federal agents, hyper aggressive. I caught on film arresting and detaining another man who was just protesting like I was.

5:58And while they were doing that, they were shooting pepper balls. And I, in fact, even got hit by one. It's like a paintball, but it has pepper inside of it. And it really like stings your eyes. And they shoot them at your feet, but they're shooting them like at my torso. Now, of course, we can't speak to individual specific arrests or incidents that you're describing that have happened. But I'm really interested in the sentiment and the feeling. Jeff and Randy, I know you recently reopened your pub. What kind of conversations are you hearing? Well, I think it's a combination of grief and anger and uncertainty.

6:41You know, the United States has a$108 billion Department of Homeland Security budget. That's larger than most national armies and defense funding. So when Ann uses the word siege, it feels like that. Absolutely. We have 3 ,000 federal agents in our city, which is not that big, you know, 400 ,000. And for me personally, it's unlike anything I ever experienced or thought I would experience in the United States. Yeah, it feels like a war zone. And flash bombs, they blew up one of our dumpsters. They threw a flash bomb in one of our dumpsters, which was very loud. The gas was overwhelming. and just, you know, feeling like you're trapped in a neighborhood somewhat because of the perimeter that they created.

7:38It was just total crazy and chaotic, and let's just tell the truth for what it is. I mean, you guys have George Orwell. You know what he said. You know, he said they will try to tell you what you see and what you hear against what you actually see and what you hear in the famous novel of, you know, 1984. And it's all being lived out. It's all being lived out. You talk about a prophetic book. Oh, my God. Yeah, and this is all a crisis that has been created by our own federal government. This is all a crisis that's been created by Donald Trump. And it feels like it's because he has a vendetta against our governor, Tim Walz, and against one of our representatives, Ilhan Omar.

8:31And it feels like that it's all retribution. because he has a beef with them. He's attacking Minneapolis, Minnesota. It started out in particular against our Somali neighbors. You know, this is not a crisis that needed to happen. And on the politics of it all across America, there is support for Donald Trump's immigration program, which he was elected on, he campaigned very publicly on it, saying what his intentions would be. And it is backed by many around the country. But I wonder, could you and take me through somebody who's involved with the school as well, take me through some of the ways in which and examples of things that you think about what you do in an average day, things that have been influenced.

9:24The tagline for our neighborhood is that we're the international neighborhood. We have people from all over the world here. And our families here at the preschool, we've had families who are fearful to leave their homes because of the color of their skin. And they're afraid to go to work. And so as Minnesotans, we are taking care of each other. Different school groups, different community groups and neighborhoods. We are taking care of our neighbors. We're bringing groceries, giving kids rides to school, helping to support people paying rent because they're not able to go to work. It feels like we've been living in crisis for many, many weeks now, and it's taking a real toll on us because we're living in crisis and living in crisis mode every single day.

10:15It's not fair for our kids. It's not fair for our community. Well, for me, I grew up in this neighborhood of Whittier. I went to Whittier Elementary School. And compared to how I always went to school here and every day, most days you don't have tear gas filling the streets. There aren't armed, military, federal, militarized police on the streets. If it's not a war zone, I'm not quite sure what it is because it's definitely not normal. It's extraordinary what the federal government is doing here. And I'd just like to say we definitely do not deserve this to happen. Minneapolis is such a safe city, good city.

10:59I've lived here all my life and it's just incredibly sad and shocking. Whittier is a quite a small area. It's kind of blocked in as it's an enclave. It's not an open Street as of yet. It's close quarters and the people in our lives, they're sad, obviously, and tired and broken. But my goodness, Minnesotans show up and they show up strong with their hearts open. Yeah, there's in the midst of all of the chaos and insanity, there's also a lot of beauty. Neighbors really wanting to support each other emotionally, spiritually, financially. People know that economically the neighborhood is being affected as well as all the other ways.

11:45People are giving extra money and mentioned, you know, buying groceries and providing support in any way we can. The frustrating part is often that we just don't know how to create the change that's going to be necessary for life to come back to some sense of normalcy. Right. So on that, I wonder what the vibe of protests or how they've been sustained over the last few months since immigration agents first came to the city. How has that kind of varied over that time, Anne? Yeah, well, and I wouldn't even always use the word protests, but we're just neighbours speaking out. There's been vigils where we're praying and we're lamenting and singing, which are all therapeutic, you know, yelling.

12:41I'm a preschool teacher. I don't swear. But to yell F ice is therapeutic. And so those things have been healing. to stand together with thousands of other Minnesotans on Friday as we had the work stoppage and everyone just crying out together, asking for ice to leave. Those things have been therapeutic and heartwarming. But at the same time, it's a cry for mercy. We don't want to live this way. We just want to have regular everyday life. And we're done. We're tired. Well, I've been to quite a few of the marches and the sit-ins and the showing ups. And every time I'm amazed how many people continue to show up and continue to show up.

13:41And a few weeks ago at when the large one was after Renee Good was killed at Powderhorn, there were so many people and there were Somali women standing outside passing out food to people. The people that should literally be the most fearful are out there. It was beautiful. And then maybe a week ago I attended a singing resistance where we marched through the streets in South Minneapolis and just sang songs. It was beautiful but hard to do because you saw little heads come out of windows waving and thanking you for being there. and we sang songs of hope and I decided to post one short video on our prodigal pub page and the number of people that have responded from all over the world with beautiful encouraging words and tears has been really pretty powerful it's it's pretty much gone viral which is weird because I don't that's weird for me anyways so that has been really lovely and then now this week again showing up and the people that have come in this horrific stuff, but they're showing up and they're loving each other, but we are very tired.

14:53Randy, Jeff, Jacob and Anne in Minneapolis. We're recording this program on Friday lunchtime. And since that conversation was recorded, the US president has said he is going to de-escalate a little bit. His borders are Tom Homan has now taken charge of ICE operations in Minneapolis, pledging to make those operations, in his words, safer, more efficient, by the book. I'm James Reynolds. You're listening to The Documentary from the BBC World Service.

15:29If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

16:07In our first conversation, Randy mentioned Minnesota's Governor Tim Walsh. You might remember the governor as the Democratic Party's candidate for vice president in 2024. Walsh has come under fire from President Trump for his handling of a fraud case involving state funds, which prosecutors say has cost the government some$9 billion, a claim Tim Walsh rejects. You'll hear Governor Walsh mentioned again in our next conversation, where we brought together two supporters of the immigration crackdown. Sean is the former chair of Minneapolis Republicans, and Terencio is the campaign manager for a local Republican politician.

16:45I asked them firstly for their reaction to the recent fatal shootings. Loss of life is definitely unfortunate. I don't think anyone here wishes for that. And, you know, what we would like to see is more cooperation with our local law enforcement to help kind of secure some of these operations that are happening. I don't think it would be fair if SWAT were to show up to a drug dealer's house locally if someone showed up with whistles. I think that's a very bad situation for them. And when you look into other areas where ICE operations are happening, there is cooperation with local law enforcement.

17:25So you don't see a lot of this chaos that you're seeing here in Minneapolis, and I think it's very unfortunate. I don't think you can exclusively point a finger at law enforcement, which this absolutely was. It was unfortunate and, how shall I say, awkward interaction with law enforcement that contributed to this situation and that there is a vast difference between what is being called protest and what is interference with federal law enforcement operations. Sean, what do you make of the fact that in both of those episodes, there was a very quick attempt by some federal officials to say, well, these were potential assailants or potential terrorists.

18:15And as the hours and days went by, the video evidence didn't tend to back that up. Oh, I think the hyperbolic language immediately resorting to domestic terrorists was uncalled for and only escalated the situation in the court of public opinion, which is where most of this escalation is happening in Minneapolis, the court of public opinion and media perception. Terencio, the idea that there should be ICE agents removing people who do not have the legal right to be in the United States, do you support that? Absolutely, 100%. That is the enforcement of our immigration laws. And, you know, those laws exist for the safety of all Americans.

18:59And I think it's quite unfair to blindly protect illegal aliens, especially the ones that these agents are targeting. We're talking about violent offenders, people with connections to drug cartels. And I think when we're talking about these type of people, to protect them is insane just blindly. And so I believe in the enforcement of our immigration laws and the work that ICE is doing. You know, we can't move from the fact that this all began with$9 billion of alleged fraud here in Minnesota. That is a large amount of money. And there's obviously a federal investigation into that. And obviously, you've talked about some of the individuals that ICE agents have been going after.

19:41And clearly, some will have criminal records, but others will simply have been in the country illegally. So there will be a range of issues facing each of those individuals. Some Americans from outside the state might say, is it really right to do all this with masks and with agents who, when you look at the video evidence, may not have performed to the highest level of professionalism? You know, the question of masks and, you know, how each agent behaves in these situations is subject to conjecture, I believe. A lot of these agents want to protect themselves and their families, because as you're seeing, there's situations where we've got legislators providing information to people and organizations where these folks are targeting these agents.

20:32So I think at the very surface, I think that would justify a mask for me to protect myself and my family. But you could see other police forces managed to arrest people without masks. Right. Absolutely. And it's due to the high tensions of the situation that we have here right now. And I believe when you ask about the fairness of deporting or seeking these people, even with the they're just illegal. You know, how is it fair to the people, the naturalized U.S. citizens and the citizens who went through the process the correct way to then protect those who didn't? Those legal U.S. citizens or immigrants who are now citizens are losing.

21:13They are the ones impacted. And they're our constituents too. And so there's a, you know, right now under our current situation, there's a need to enforce our immigration laws. I'm curious as to your interactions with people on the other side of the political spectrum from you. And Sean, am I right in saying that there is a phrase called Minnesota nice? Yes. Is that just a media invention or is that real? No, that's real. And it's very similar to Southern hospitality. And Sean, what do you take then to being a Minnesotan and relations with neighbors who might see things very differently from you?

21:52I can speak to that directly because my next door neighbor is probably as polar opposite politically as as humanly possible. And we still borrow each other's lawnmowers and rakes and a cup of sugar when necessary and have lovely neighborly relationships. It's very easy to get into the emotional tug of war with, you know, between yourself and your friends and family. I've learned that you have to force yourself into really working through a conversation that's not trying to gotcha and really honestly sharing each other's viewpoints and then finding out the truth of what are the root causes of those viewpoints and finding ways to take viewpoints that are extremely different and aligning them on something that is common.

22:42A lot of people, of course, have watched the devastating footage of those two fatal shootings. And I think it's surely human for people to wonder what they would do if they were in that situation. And I'm just curious, Sean, if an ICE raid happened on your street or near you and you happened to be nearby, what would you do? Let them go about their business. I have had personal interactions with federal authorities, state authorities before. I was a caseworker. I've worked with convicts, the mentally ill and addicts. And all of us can look at that. And it's an unfortunate truth is that's not how you interact with police.

23:20It's a cold, hard truth that when you have a combative relationship with a law enforcement officer, it will never end well. There is not a instance in U.S. history where resisting arrest or interfering with lawful operations has ended well. Your next week is going to be interrupted. Either you're going to be in jail or the morgue. I would do what I would normally do, probably stay in my home. This is the truth. I would stay in my home, make sure myself and my family is safe. I don't know why federal agents are moving onto a house, and I probably don't want myself in between them and whatever's in that house.

24:01And, you know, and as a neighbor, you hope, maybe you know this person and you hope that it's not a horrible situation. But there is a path to get into the U.S. I would hope that this person, if they were only deported and not arrested for a horrible crime, that they would then take the path that many others before them have taken and come into the country legally. And then there's so much reward for that. No one wants the violence. The president has signaled he doesn't want it. He sat down with Governor Walz. We don't want the chaos here in Minnesota. Terencio and Sean in Minneapolis. Our thanks to them and to all of our guests this week.

24:42I'm James Reynolds. You've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

24:55If journalism is the first draft of history, what happens if that draft is flawed? In 1999, four Russian apartment buildings were bombed, hundreds killed. But even now, we still don't know for sure who did it. It's a mystery that sparked chilling theories. I'm Helena Merriman, and in a new BBC series, I'm talking to the reporters who first covered this story. What did they miss the first time? The History Bureau, Putin and the apartment bombs. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.