Living with the threat of drone attacks

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1:08Inna:Hello, I'm Rahul Tandon. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC OS Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences. This time, we hear from people in Ukraine living with the threat of drone attacks. There are now more Russian drone attacks on Ukraine than ever before in the conflict. On some nights, hundreds are targeted at the country. In one raid this week, Ukraine's Air Force says Moscow launched 619 drones and missiles, killing at least three people and injuring dozens more. In our conversations, we hear from three women who all have experience of drone attacks.

1:54Inna:One of them had a lucky escape. Elsewhere in Europe, Russian drones have also breached Polish airspace. They were shot down by fighter jets. And airports in Denmark were forced to temporarily close earlier this week after drones were flown overhead, potentially endangering aircraft. Russian involvement has not been ruled out, something firmly rejected by Moscow. Ukraine, meanwhile, has been using drones to target industry in Russia, including oil refineries. Russia reports that four people were killed this week in a Ukrainian drone attack. With drones becoming increasingly common in all aspects of warfare, we hear later from two Ukrainian drone pilots for an insight into their operations.

2:47Inna:Our first guests have all been affected by Russian drone strikes. Camilla is a journalist living in Kiev. Katerina is a student based in the capital city. She's originally from the Donetsk region, now the front line of the conflict. And Ina is also a student studying in Kiev. On the 7th of September, she went out to a concert and stayed over at her friend's. It was a decision that may have saved her life.

3:15Andy:I was just scrolling the news and I realised that they targeted my house. I think I felt like, I felt on the edge, like between the life and death, to be completely honest, because I remember thinking that it could have been like 50 metres left to the left. And if I was home, I would be dead. and it's really it changed the whole perception of my life to be honest after that moment it wasn't it wasn't the same

3:57Inna:Camilla can I come to you here you have experience within your family of something similar don't you

4:04Kateryna:tell us what happened to your aunt just less than a month ago in my hometown Russian drone hit our neighbor's house just next to my mom's house just across the street and I found out about that in the morning when I woke up by my sister call and she told me that hey, there is a Russian drone in our hometown and the first thing she told me was like, our mom is fine but Olya was killed Olya was my guardian father wife. She was my dad's childhood friend, really good one, really close. And I knew her for many, many years. So it's something you never could be ready for. And it's something you have to practice for a while.

5:01Inna:Yeah, we can hear in your voice. It's obviously something that you struggle with still. And I want to bring Katerina in here as well, because you have a similar experience to the other two, don't you, in terms of your house has been destroyed not once, but twice.

5:21Andy:So my first house was destroyed in Donetsk City because I came from the city. Then we moved into the Netsk region and then my house was destroyed during Russian attacks on my town like it was in the very beginning of full-scale war and just one day rockets hit our neighborhood and just in a few minutes everything was gone like the roof collapsed and the windows shattered and not only my house turned into ruins like many of my neighbors lost their homes too and yeah that was really painful for us to realize that we lost like our memories and our house it seems crazy like in childhood we

6:09Kateryna:were told that the world war ii was like the last one and now everything would be fine so for me personally and i think you also could share this war was the biggest nightmare which could ever happen so there is so much pain and so many things people have to deal with after it's something which not in the news that much because like usually what we could see like there was a strike how many people were killed, how many people were injured, and that's it. But after that, what happened to these people, that's what happened in my hometown. Family came, and they had to deal with all these distractions, and they had to decide where they could move later.

7:01Kateryna:And my mom, she also could not spend nights in her house anymore after that. So it's so much things, so many things are going on after that as well.

7:13Inna:You know, when you've been through an attack like the one that you've been through where your house was bombed, how do you deal with that afterwards when you go to sleep at night? Can you sleep or do you just live in this constant state of fear?

7:29Andy:I don't live in a state of fear because I would become mad because fear draws people mad. so we have to live our lives we have to endure we don't have a right to be broken that's what I'm trying to say because the price of our future I hope and the war is very high and living our life as normally as we can that's the least we can do I'm trying to live my own life I can work and study. And I can actually sleep at night because unfortunately we got used to these attacks. But I'm still afraid of the sound of these drones and explosions. So I can say that I feel much better now. But I am still shocked of these occasions that happens to Ukraine.

8:33Andy:and that's really, really terrible. And, yeah, I think you can understand it.

8:38Inna:Kamen, when you sit there now and you see what is happening around you and Russia is sending in more and more drones to attack the places where you live, what are your thoughts on when this might end or how it might end?

8:55Andy:I think it just, it has to end somewhere. I don't know. I'm just really believing in our troops, in our army. So, yeah, everyone might be just punished if they were acting bad. So we will win in this war, definitely. I hope it will be really soon. I'm trying to think positively, and I'm sure that Ukrainian troops will just beat the Russian ones.

9:30Inna:Who should be doing more? Should Europe be doing more to help Ukraine? What should President Trump be doing to help Ukraine?

9:38Andy:As a Ukrainian and as a young woman whose house were targeted by the Russian drone, I want to say this. Please think more of people who are suffering right now and what can you do for them? That's what you should be concentrated on as a politician, because I have no idea. I just like, I don't know, send more, more, I don't know, tanks. Money. Or artillery. Or I don't know. They don't want to send troops, of course. That's understandable. Yes. But the war equipment, that's what can save our lives. The lives of the children, of babies. The baby died in my house that night. with his mother. He was three months old.

10:33Andy:They were crushed by this hole with this big piece of building because they just, I don't know. That's very painful for me. I'm so sorry.

10:45Inna:I don't think there's any need for you to apologise. We're very grateful that you're talking to us and sharing what must be a very, very difficult experience. It's interesting, Camilla, to hear those thoughts there, that frustration. Do you share that frustration that more needs to be done to help Ukraine so that people like yourselves don't have to live through this day in, day out?

11:11Kateryna:I'm not that optimistic, to be honest. I don't have on a daily basis a hope that war will be over soon. I'm more realistic one. I'm pretty sure that that russia will be attacking as long as it could as long as they have money as long as they have weapon as long as they have power as long as they have respect from other countries russia is a terrorist like and what they do is a terror and you can't stop a terrorist just by talking to them or just praying or asking them please not to do it anymore it doesn't work like this russia was not punished after World War II when they were not at the right side in the beginning.

12:04And they never were punished for their crimes for any of them, internal, external.

12:11Kateryna:And they have to be punished. It won't work in any other way. They won't agree for, like, OK, now let's be good people. and like they came here to kill us and said what they're doing and this what they will be doing till they would be stopped. The only hope I have that one day finally all people in power in the whole world, they will understand like what they actually should do, that they should punish the aggressor, that they should protect at least themselves because we are not like protected already. Like we have lost so much.

12:56Inna:Well, you've all lost so much, haven't you? And you've been very good in sharing what you've lost, how you feel about losing it, how you cope with life on a daily basis. But I want to just end with you because what happened to you was so recent and so difficult. I know you're trying to be positive. Is that hard?

13:20Andy:I think yes. If you don't mind, I want to share one story. It's really quick, but I want to respect a memory of my friend who died recently as a warrior. His name was Ivan Pismenli. He was my school friend. and all I do now, I mean, not all, but I think I'm being positive for him because I know that he would want me to be positive. He didn't die for no reason. And he was only 23 years old and he was a medic. He wanted to protect people. He wanted to help people to save their lives. And he was a very, very positive person, very positive person. So I'm trying to be more like him.

14:20Inna:Ina, Katerina and Kamila sharing their experiences of drone attacks in Ukraine. In a moment, we'll hear from two Ukrainian drone pilots about how drones have changed the nature of the conflict. I'm Rahul Tanden. And this is the documentary from the BBC World Service.

14:45Kamila:I'm Steve Rosenberg, the BBC's Russia editor. In Our Man in Moscow, I'll show you what it's like being a news correspondent in Russia as the Russian authorities wage war on Ukraine and try to silence dissent.

14:57Andy:The sound of war has reverberated around Ukraine for three years.

15:01Kamila:Dramatic geopolitical upheaval alongside threats of intimidation and imprisonment. Our man in Moscow. Watch with a subscription to bbc.com and the BBC app. Visit bbc.com slash docs to learn more. Ever wonder why we make the choices we do? And how to make smarter ones? Introducing Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join Wharton Professor Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioural scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we do the things we do, and how to make better choices to help avoid costly mistakes.

15:46Kamila:Each episode covers the latest research in behavioral science and dives into themes like the power of self-control, shaping your mindset for success, navigating new beginnings, and why starting over can feel so hard. Listen to choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.

16:10Inna:The term drone usually refers to a vehicle without a pilot, remotely controlled or automated. Aerial drones have been around since the dawn of aviation. In fact, a radio-controlled bomb was flown in tests during the First World War. Surveillance drones were first widely deployed by the United States during the Vietnam War in the 1960s. And while the capabilities of military drones have become more sophisticated, drone technology has also become readily available and affordable. But despite their long history, today drones are changing the face of modern warfare, nowhere more so than in this conflict.

16:53Inna:On the front line, Ukrainian forces use drones for surveillance, delivering supplies and for attacking Russian forces. Some are radio-controlled, but others use thin fibre-optic cable that unwinds from a cartridge as they travel, avoiding signals being jammed. Drones are also being used on land and at sea. And to find out more, we brought together drone pilots Andy and Alexei. Based near the front line in the east of Ukraine, they told me first about the remotely controlled ground vehicles they use, big enough to evacuate injured soldiers.

17:31Oleksii:It's like a small car where we can put ammunition, medicine, water, food, everything needs on the first line. and we can do it like 8-10 kilometers depending from the landscape and so on. For example, we have a few positions that there's no way to get to this position by ground and we have no way to change people in this position for a week, two weeks, three weeks. But they have to eat, they have to drink, they have to have a lot of ammunition because they have an enemy position in 50 yards. So we have to deliver a lot of stuff for them, and we have to get out some persons who feel bad to give them medicine and medical help.

18:22Kamila:So one example, a couple months ago, the Azov Brigade, they delivered several units of blood by drone to the trenches, and this blood was transfused to the wounded soldier, and his life was saved. so you can imagine how much you can do. The sky is the limit. Honor imagination limits you.

18:43Inna:You're not on the front line, but do you feel sometimes like you are on the front line because you are killing a lot of Russians, aren't you?

18:53Kamila:People now, when we say war, right, something that comes to the mind of our listeners is Second World War, right? Long, long trenches and tents and artillery and aviation dropping bombs, right? The current war is different. Yes, we have thousands and thousands of soldiers. We have a lot of artillery. But the area where you could be targeted by enemy is increased drastically, right? So while infantry indeed entrenches face-to-face with enemy, drone operators could stay like five kilometers, three kilometers behind the infantry, right? But that's within the distance of attack of Russian artillery, Russian drones, Russian aviation, Russian tanks, everything.

19:47Kamila:It's not a secret that drone pilots are a priority target.

19:52Inna:Have you been targeted?