Mamdani’s New Yorkers

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If there was a big red button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:42Hello, I'm Luke Jones. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC OS Conversations, we bring people together to discuss major stories that affect their lives. This time, we're hearing from supporters of New York's newly elected mayor, Zoran Mamdani. he's an immigrant he is muslim and a self-proclaimed democratic socialist zoro mamdani is also at just 34 years old the city's youngest mayor in a century famed for his charisma and with millions of views on social media the democratic candidate campaigned on a platform that included reducing the cost of living providing free child care and levying new taxes on millionaires and corporations.

1:29New York, tonight you have delivered a mandate for change. A mandate for a new kind of politics. A mandate for a city we can afford. Later we'll hear from two women about the financial challenges of living in New York city and three american muslims discuss why mamdani's election matters so much to them in his victory speech mamdani made a point of thanking the voters he says have been left behind by the city i speak of yemeni bodega owners and mexican abuelas senegalese taxi drivers and uzbek nurses trinidadian line cooks and ethiopian aunties Yes, aunties. For our first conversation, my colleague Rahul Tandon brought together Fadir, a carer originally from Sierra Leone.

2:31Choky from Nepal. She owns a restaurant which she says she can no longer afford to run. And Carlos is an academic born in Colombia. This is the very first time in the 25 years that I've been living in New York City that I see all the areas of the working class coming together, despite their different backgrounds or different tendencies, even their different faiths. Mandani has made a point about the need for the city to be functional for everybody, not only for the billionaires. And in that sense, he was able to inspire different generations, different cultures, and different faiths. This is a unique phenomenon that has given us, again, hope for a better New York.

3:14Yeah, this is the first time I ever experienced what I see in my eyes on this Tuesday. Because McDonough is not only for the poor people or the rich people. It stands for everybody in New York City. It stands for right. It stands for justice. It stands for everything. Everything that we need in New York. We are just praying for McDonough so God can guide him and protect him. Because sometimes it's not easy. So we pray the almighty Allah to guide him and protect him. And whatever she achieves for New York. He's someone who knows our problem. He came to Jackson Heights so many times. He promised to lower the cost.

3:57We are very hopeful and we are very happy he wins. And he will bring the rent control law to protect the small business. Either he helped me or not. But after I shut down, maybe he helped someone like me who is facing this kind of problem. And I am so happy that he is victory. Carlos, I know that you're somebody who teaches, don't you? Yes, I am. I am a professor at the City University of New York. When you see the kids around you in New York, in a city that's so expensive, you know, how do they cope? You know, rent is so high, food is so high. What is their future? Do lots of them think, hey, I need to leave New York?

4:43I truly believe that the lack of affordability for New Yorkers, for working class New Yorkers, is robbing this generation of the right to the pursuit of happiness, which is in the Constitution of the United States. People have to work many jobs, even to cover basic, basic needs. And we're talking about people who come to New York because they are willing to work for a living. They don't want handouts. They don't want things for free. They want to be given the chance to improve their lives through education and hard work. There is a crisis. Young people are not able to move out of their houses to begin their own independent lives.

5:23More and more, the city is becoming divided into two big pieces, you know, the ultra rich and the working poor. So the middle class is suffering in New York City. that this generation is losing hope. And I do expect Madani to concentrate on delivering for them, for the young working generation of New York City. Yeah, I'm just going to say that when we come from West Africa, we know New York is expensive. We know that. But I know Madani is going to go out for the poor, especially the poor people, the middle class. She can go out and help, especially the rent and the poor people, because now people are scared to go out because of heist.

6:06They're scared to go out because of circumstances. Some people are so scared, especially the day of the election. Some people are so scared because I know one of my neighbors. When I come in, I say, Mommy, are you not going to go out for voting? They say, I'm scared. I say, scared for what? I say, go out and vote. Speak your mind. If you go out and vote, your one vote is something else in New York. is going to do something to New York. So I'm just praying to the Almighty God to help him and guide him. I know New York is not an easy place to live. It's expensive. But we're praying for the rent and freedom.

6:45That's all we need in New York City. It reminds me of the feeling that we had when Barack Obama was elected president. We knew that he wasn't going to be perfect, but we knew that he was making history by becoming a role model of decency and work for the American people. In the same sense, Mandani has given people a sense of renewed hope, I would say. So it does feel different. I hope the feeling transforms into effective policies, which is a big challenge for Mandani and his team. We now enter into the hardest phase. You know, beyond the election is the actual office that he has to fill with his ideas.

7:24But it does feel different. is a city that was hit by all this situation that is affecting the general country. And Mandani has given people the hope that was taken away by policies coming from outside New York City. Carlos, Fadilla and Chucky. And as we were just hearing, New York City is a very expensive place to live. So to get a sense of what that means for families, during our daily live OS programme, we brought together Catherine, who still lives in the city and voted for Zora Mamdani, and her friend Brooke, who was recently moved south to live in the suburbs of Annapolis in Maryland. I had a baby and it was during COVID.

8:09And I'm looking around New York and I'm like, look guys, I can't have a child in this environment. We're middle class. I can't afford the daycare. So I'm going to have to give up this career that I made a commitment, a long-term financial and time commitment to, I'm an architectural conservator, I work on things. For me to have to give that up so that I could stay home with my child feels very like Betty Friedan, like 1950s feminine mystique. You know, it's like, that's still the reality though. And I know many women who have had to give up their careers to be able to stay home with the child because they can't afford the daycare.

8:51So we just said, this is ridiculous. We don't have retirement. We're in our 40s and we're living like we're in our 20s. This is absurd. As Brooke said, it's the money and you can make it work depending on how many roommates you have or are willing to do. But it is truly also the quality of life issue. I spend at least one paycheck a month, if not one and a half on rent. And I have roommates and I'm in my mid-30s. One. And for, you know, a two bedroom apartment. It is a quality of life too, though. It's not just whether you can live by yourself or not. It's extremely rare in New York to be able to have a dishwasher or a washing machine or outdoor space.

9:36It does become tiresome when you're spending almost your whole income on just where you're living and food and commuting. And you're still, you know, getting a one bedroom without anything else in it. It is clearly very expensive. It is clearly very difficult. But that is the story of many big cities. You know, if you come to London, that is the life that people live here. You know, when I was in India, in Mumbai, the financial capital there is much more expensive than other cities. If you are the biggest and in some ways the most important city, isn't that a cost you pay sometimes? When I graduated from college, I went to, I grew up in Baltimore and moved, like, ran away from Baltimore into New York when I was 19.

10:21It was, like, totally normal to pay a paycheck and a half and live off in one month on half a paycheck. So when I graduated from college and was working, all of my friends and I were making, oh, this was, by the way, 2003. So I'm really, really old. $23 ,000. Okay. So, but that was normal. Okay. But I'm also 23 years old. Right. So that was very appropriate for the time. It was very character developing. That is not the way of life for someone who is in their thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, beyond, right? So what has occurred in New York is you have this age discrepancy. You're not going to find a lot of people who are lower middle class, middle class, living necessarily in New York City in the areas where people, when they think of New York, that's the area they're thinking of, right?

11:17At my age group, we've all left. Sayonara, because it just doesn't make sense anymore. That is the quality of life thing that we keep pushing on. It's about investing in your baby's future. It's about investing in your future. It's about being able to not eat top ramen every single day. If the mayor is successful in his plans, would you think, hey, I might go back? You know, if there was free childcare, could that encourage you to go back? People like you to come back to New York? Well, I would love to come back to New York. I mean, in my heart of hearts, I think I am much more of a New Yorker.

11:49I'm far too aggressive and assertive to be down here. You haven't been on here, so there we go. Yeah, it's like I'm way too obnoxious to be living where I live. But no, I am very disenchanted. I have to admit I'm exceptionally cynical. You know, I've lived through Republican presidents, Democratic presidents. I've lived through Bloomberg, which arguably I think he was a fantastic mayor. I know there's a lot to be discussed there. You know, I was at the tail end of Giuliani. And then there was de Blasio, who was an absolute nightmare. mayor. I mean, he, de Blasio really was the reason why I left.

12:24So I think at the point, it's like, I'm not even looking at political parties anymore because nobody falls into their political parties anymore. As far as I'm concerned, I grew up as a very old school Republican. I don't recognize Republicans anymore. So I am very disenchanted. I am hopeful, but disenchanted. And as Brooke said, I agree. I am extremely disillusioned. I feel like I have been let down a lot by our political system and our government. So I think it is extremely hopeful and encouraging that there is a candidate that was truly the popular vote who won. And we will see what happens.

13:06I am hopeful. At the end of the day, the political process did elect someone who the majority wanted and who really speaks to what we believe are the core values of the people who live here. So the general vibes are good. Catherine in New York and former New Yorker Brooke. I'm Luke Jones and you are listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In a moment, here on BBC OS Conversations, Muslim Americans discuss why they believe Zoran Mamdani's election is so important.

13:43If there was a big red button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

14:40area of San Francisco. Amanda is in Dearborn, Michigan, the largest Arab majority city in the US. In 2015, Amanda became the first female chef to wear a hijab on the primetime television cooking show MasterChef USA. And Juaria is a New Yorker who now lives near Washington DC. Growing up post 9-11 with my mother, who is also visibly Muslim, I didn't see a whole lot of hatred come our way. I actually saw a lot of love in New York. But this is a day that I never would have imagined, especially as a little girl, to see something like this, to see a Muslim who is leading the charge is, quite frankly, unimaginable.

15:22And it makes me happy as a Muslim, but also happy for all of my relatives who are still in New York and who I hope will see good out of this. And I hope we'll look at Mamdani kind of as Muslim affluence and Muslim success. It means that someone great is in office, someone that looks like me and believes like me, that has similar ethics and values. And I'm very proud of that. Dearborn's had a Muslim mayor for the last four years. We just reelected Mayor Abdullah Hamoud and everything that he's done for the city. I think it's great to have Muslim mayors everywhere. It's a really big deal for America at this moment.

16:04It's a big deal for New York. It's really a big deal for Muslims and South Asians in particular. And I would say Arabs and Palestinian Americans who have seen such an avalanche of hate and Islamophobia thrown their way and to still see New York and the diversity of New York, Muslims, Jews, African-Americans, Latinos, Asians come out and support Mamdani. It's a moment of joy. There's a lot of talk about Barack Obama, isn't there? And he was a first. What a great moment that was. But if you speak to many people within the different black communities, they will say, in the end, Obama turned out to be a bit of a disappointment.

16:38Could that be the same here? I'm half African American, right? And I was pretty young when Obama was first elected. I was a child in school. I think I was like 10 years old. And all I remember was hearing about black success, hearing about this historic moment. And now as an adult, when I hear about what Obama has done in different countries, I'm filled with this kind of bitter resentment towards, you know, what could have been. I think with Muslims specifically, right, like black people, or if you're both like me, there is so much negativity that is already aligned with your identity. For Muslims, it's terrorists or that, you know, Muslims are not as smart as other people or they're savages because they eat with their hands.

17:30Or, you know, if you're black, there's a stereotype of violence or, unfortunately, stupidity, which is just abhorrent to hear about. I've heard about it my entire life. I think we have to take this opportunity to inspire people further. One stereotype, again, within Muslim communities is that everybody wants their kid to be in STEM. You know, you're successful if you are a lawyer, an engineer or a doctor in some capacity. And if you do anything else, you're not going to be taken seriously by the aunties, by the popos, by the kaltos. So, you know, I think it's great for little boys and little girls to see Mamdani and his wife Rama to see that as what could be.

18:12I don't want to be a mayor when I grow up. I want little boys, little brown boys and little brown girls and black girls to say, I want to be a better president than Obama. I want to be a better Muslim leader than Mamdani ever was. That was so beautifully said. You captured what we're feeling. You know, it's a starting point. It's getting the representation and demonstrating to the youth what they can aspire to be. I really am loving seeing Muslims push the boundaries in political office right now. If you look at the last 24 years, we're still in the shadow and aftermath of the war on terror that never ended, which has been fueled by a dehumanization against not just Muslims, but anyone who looks Muslim-y.

18:56Bigots aren't nuanced. Mamdani had nothing to do with 9-11. He's a South Asian immigrant born in Africa, and he was like a kid when 9-11 happened, but it doesn't matter. They still equate him with terrorists. I remember when 9-11 happened, I was a UC Brickley student in my pajamas watching the two towers go down. And that was the first time I got the email, go back to where you came from, to which I always wanted to respond. The Bay Area? Sure, if you could pay for my rent. And so this type of casual dehumanization of Muslims and Arabs has been around and has skyrocketed, especially in the past two years.

19:29And you've seen the ugliness, the cancellations, you know, the smearing. So to see Mamdani in light of all this hate, not just as a Muslim, as a democratic socialist, as a young man, as an outsider who was anti-establishment, as an immigrant, and proudly so, it's not just a moment of joy for Muslims. But as Javaria said, it's what could be for everyone else. All those kids who said, you know what, America would never accept me as a president. Not me. I'm not a white man. Obama was a one off. And now they say, maybe me, maybe inshallah, one day I, too, can be man. That's what Magdani represents.

20:07He represents the inshallah, the God willing and the realization of the inshallah manifested in reality. Amanda, you broke down barriers as well, but in breaking down barriers, you must have faced challenges on the way. Oh, absolutely. And my quest on MasterChef and cooking for Gordon Ramsay and really just pursuing a passion, I got great support from Muslims and non-Muslims just celebrating me cooking and making really delicious things, but also that brought out the Islamophobes and the racist people who continuously have made comments to me just based on how I decide to show up in the world as a hijab-wearing Muslim woman.

20:50And that hasn't stopped. I've stepped away from X Twitter because of that. But it's also an opportunity for learning and engagement, And maybe not the person that's hiding on their keyboard spewing rhetoric that they've heard about Muslims directly to me, but maybe it is reaching out to someone in my office and asking if they'd like to have a walk and talk during lunch and ask questions about what it's like for me being Muslim. I look at New York now living four hours away with the taste that lychee gives you like it's kind of sour and it's kind of sweet. I have so much love towards New York. But when I tell people I lived in Birmingham, Alabama, they kind of assume that that's where I received a lot of my hate.

21:35But two weeks before I was married, I was hit on the 72nd Street subway going uptown. I think I was just heading to a coffee shop. And, you know, I got up to get off and somebody hit me from behind and they hit me so hard that I kind of flew out of the door. And I stood there surprised as I turned around. The doors closed and the subway left. And I was just standing on the platform on this beautiful fall day, looking around, wondering, how do I even tell anybody about this? I can't tell the police about this because I barely saw who did it. They're gone now. So I was just left with that emotion.

22:11And it's funny because I had never received that kind of attitude for my entire life as a hijabi. Right. So I'm very hopeful towards what New York looks like in the coming years, as I am always hopeful, no matter who the mayor is. But I'm also a little bit wary of potential Islamophobia that can arise from this. And we've already seen this online. Right. Well, we're really sorry to hear what happened to you. That clearly was a horrific incident that must have shaken you. Final thoughts from all of you. What does it feel like being a Muslim in the US? And does it feel different now because of what we've seen in New York?

22:50Amanda, do you want to go first? I don't know what it's like to not be Muslim in America because this is my lived experience from the day I was born. And I think right now the feeling is pride, happiness, joy, encouragement. I feel extremely hopeful for the future of New York City, of Muslims, of our interfaith relationships, of everyone that's living here and how we can best get together and work and live together in harmony. As far as hope goes, we have to be hopeful. Our faith commands hope. And I have three kids and I'll be damned if I tell them they will have to hide their identity and their religion and their faith.

23:30I'll tell them, no, you can be the protagonist of the American narrative. You too one day can be mayor. I know things will be rough. I know tough days are ahead. This country is going through a lot. But it also shows the majority stepped up and said, you know what, we see this narrative and vision of exclusion and dehumanization and hate, and we're going to choose something better. And the person who will help lead the city is a Muslim brown skin immigrant. And as a Muslim brown skin son of immigrants, that gives me immense joy and hope. I truly can't imagine as a Muslim living anywhere else. I think it's beautiful to stand out in a ways, whether you're a hijabi or you're just a man with a beard.

24:11I just love talking about who I am and why I am who I am, which I credit to my religion. With or without Mamdani, I think I'm just so, again, hopeful and anticipatory towards what Muslims can accomplish in the coming years. Jewariah, Wajahat and Amanda. Thank you to them and to all of our guests for sharing their experiences this week. I'm Luke Jones and you've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service

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