Mapping Epstein's global connections

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0:30Make your travel dollars work harder. Follow Smart Travel on your favorite podcast app. Is China the real winner from the war in Iran? I'm Asma Khalid, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the war in Iran drags on, one big idea we keep hearing is that somehow the real winner is a country technically not even involved in the fight, China. But is that story actually true? And what does this war mean for China's long-term ambitions? Listen to The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you listen to your favourite pods. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

1:26This is The Fifth Floor, at the heart of global storytelling, with BBC journalists from all around the world. I'm your host, Farnak Amidi.

1:44The personal correspondence, photographs and papers of the late convicted sex offender and financier Jeffrey Epstein that are now open to public scrutiny run to three and a half million documents. Emails, letters, photographs, videos, financial records and flight details. They reveal a web of international connections. So many countries, India, Qatar, Israel, Brazil, Dubai, Russia, just to name a few. With me today are two BBC Language Service journalists, each of whom has spent time examining the files. Abdurraim Saeed from BBC Arabic and Luis Fernando Toledo, who is a reporter for BBC News Brazil.

2:27Today, they share with us what they found about the files related to their regions. Guys, welcome to the program. Great to have you. As a journalist, how did it feel to know that you were about to dive into these files? For me, I was just curious because, as you said, there were thousands of documents published and all the major newsrooms were on it. and there were the usual high-profile names. There was interest a lot from those names who are based, or individuals who are based, say, in the UK or in the US or the Western countries.

3:06Abdirahim Sa:And I was really interested. I was asking myself, I was curious, who else can we find in these documents? So we did have a short list of names to look at. And then not every single name would be interesting. Other names would be interesting because there's a sustained communication over the years. And then we would narrow it even further down. And, you know, and then we look at the nature of those communications. And if the people are still around, we try and, you know, get hold of them and speak to them directly. You know, you've been in touch with Epstein. Here's part of the communication that we found.

3:38You know, what did you mean by this? What was the chat here? Because with some of them were, you know, on very friendly terms, they were not just discussing business, but they were discussing women sometimes in very crude and sexist way. you want to speak to them what did they mean by that some of them would uh you know blank you and not talk to you or they would send their lawyers to you and some others you know would get in touch with you but you know it's one of those stories where you let audiences know this is what we found this is who Epstein was in touch with this is the nature of the communication where this person is around we'll try and get you know a response from them and you know there was a lot of curiosity in our region about Epstein and who he was in touch with from, you know, the Middle East region, from the Arab world and, you know, North Africa.

4:24Abdirahim Sa:And of course, being mentioned or being in communication with Epstein does not mean there was any criminal wrongdoing. But it was interesting to see, we're talking about this guy who appeared influential, powerful, in touch with global figures. And for me, it was, you know, for our region and for our audiences of BBC Arabic, it was the case of who is from the region or is associated with the region that Epstein was in touch with. So I was ready and curious. And, you know, I spent many days chasing those names and those papers. So Luis, as a journalist, when you found out that you have to dive into these documents, how did it feel?

5:07Yeah, so the first thing for me was that I've worked before with huge data sets like when we had Panama Papers and other leaks where many journalists had access to the same database at the same time. But this time was really, really different because it was not just journalists. Everyone in the world had access. If you had internet, you could go to the justice.gov website and look up the documents. So it was really challenging. For me, I was working for, I worked for BBC News Brazil. So I was interested in finding stories about Brazil. The first thing I did was I have some programming background.

5:43So I created a scraper that downloads all the documents from the government websites that contains Brazil or Brazilian and names related to Brazil. And I've come up with$4 ,000 documents, something like that. And after that, and looking up the documents for like two or three days, I realized that there was a very good filter for me. So I was looking at a specific point in time between 2003 and 2005, 2006. And at the time, there wasn't Google Translator. There wasn't like many fancy stuff to translate Portuguese to English, English to Portuguese. You just needed to go to the real dictionary in paper.

6:22So Brazilian people, they speak in a very specific way. They use very specific words. So when I was trying to look up for keywords, like when we say goodbye to someone in an email, we say abração, big hug, something like that. so I was just looking at big hug big kiss and things like that so I could find the Brazilian people who are in contact with Epstein or being mentioned by Epstein or in exchange with Epstein in some emails so that that was a really effective way to find conversations between Epstein and Brazilian people so it was exciting for me at the same time challenging because we needed to fact check everything and reach out to the people who were mentioning those files and nobody wants to talk about that, of course, but it was really challenging.

7:05So as a journalist, I think it's a unique moment in time for us. So where did you start from?

7:11Abdirahim Sa:It was just a case of just being curious and seeing what's already out there. And then one or two names will come up or his absence connections to certain countries will come up. And also, yes, I'll be checking social media as well. And sometimes you will get tips there, but you want to verify them, right? And one name that quickly came up was Sultan Ahmed, bin Salaam. He's one of the most powerful people, not just in Dubai, where he's based and from, but globally. You know, he's a developer, a state mogul on his own right. But he was also the boss of a global ports operation called Dubai Ports, which ran ports in the region, but globally in Africa, in South America, and also in the UK.

7:57Was there a lot of appetite in your region for the Epstein files?

8:02Abdirahim Sa:I mean, Epstein as a figure wasn't initially that well-known in the region. And as the story grew in the US and then in Western cities and capitals, people started to hear about him. And the initial question is, who is this guy? Why is he important? And then the next question is, has he got any connections to our region? People quickly find out there's a list of powerful people, influential people around the world that were in touch with him, not necessarily for the wrong reasons, could have been legitimate reasons, but people were curious. And you mentioned briefly that, of course, just being in the files or being named in the files, it doesn't mean, it's not evidence of any wrongdoing.

8:43But you mentioned one person that kept on coming, his name kept on showing up in the files. What did you find out about him? The Dubai Morgul Sultan Ahmed bin Salim. He was one known figure around the world. he was in touch with Epstein for around a decade,

9:02Abdirahim Sa:definitely after Epstein's first conviction in 2008 for sex offences. So with Sultan, it was a happy to be a close relationship in the sense that they knew each other very well. So they would often update each other on their itineraries, where they're going to be, are we going to cross paths, where I'm going to see you. But also there was other aspects of it. It was very friendly in the sense that Epstein, in one email, declared to Sultan, you know, bin Slayim, you're my best friend, you know. But also, on the other hand, Sultan would seek advice and counsel from Epstein on various matters, sometimes very personal.

9:42Abdirahim Sa:So he would seek, you know, his advice and counsel on his own health issues, for example. But also, more than that, they had discussions about women around them in a very crude, sometimes sexist way. Sometimes they would rate the attractiveness of women they're coming across. There was a lot of the communication, the context is not clear. And again, and even in those terms, talking about women, it's not necessarily an indication of any wrongdoing. But for me, it offered a glimpse into the world of Epstein and the powerful, often powerful men he was in touch with. And these are very protective people, these powerful people, not just Epstein, but other business people who's in touch with, including Bin Salim.

10:30Abdirahim Sa:You often get them filtered through their PR machinery. You don't know them as a person. You hear from them via their statements. And here you are seeing thousands of documents, hundreds of emails, seeing them as they are. And we should also say that Sultan Ahmed bin Salim resigned from his post after the Epstein files revealed years of messages exchanged between him and the late financier. Louise, what about you? Tell me about some of your findings. Yeah, so the thing about Brazil was that, first of all, everybody was interested in Epstein, but not necessarily in the real stories. I think this was the first challenge for us.

11:14if you were on X at the time, December, January, so many people were discussing conspiracy theories around him, stories about, if you find like a famous name of a model of someone who's famous, then people would start saying that this person was receiving money from Epstein or something like that. So it was really challenging to make people interested in the real stories because the real stories are scandals. But at the same time, people were not that interested in the real stories because there were so many conspiracy theories. So I think like because we tried to pursue like different stories, but real stories with real people, we were not just looking at the documents.

11:57We were trying to talk to people that we found on the documents. So people that are accused of something or people who are victims. And I think this is really important to mention. Sometimes we knew stories that we just couldn't publish. because, for example, we found about a teenager model who was in Epstein's airplane several times. She never spoke about that. We tried to reach out to her and she didn't say anything. So we decided that we wouldn't publish anything about her because she was a victim. She was not doing something wrong. So why would we publish her story if she didn't tell anyone about that?

12:33So that's something we've been discussing a lot in Epstein Files cases Because sometimes it could be a story, but is it of public interest? Do people need to know about that if the person who's involved didn't want to talk about that? The first thing we were trying to find out in Brazil was how was it possible that Epstein had so many access to Brazilian models, Brazilian teenager girls, Brazilian entrepreneurs? There was someone helping him in Brazil. And it was not that hard to find out in the files and then talking to people that actually he had access to basically all the model agencies in Brazil back in 2004, 2005, because of one person, Jean-Luc Brunel.

13:15If you've read something about Epstein, you probably know this name. Jean-Luc Brunel was this recruiter who was first based in Paris and then moved to New York. And he was really famous at the time. He was organizing huge events for models. So for people in Brazil, it was not like I'm dealing with Epstein. They were dealing with this guy, Jean-Luc Brunel. For them, it was an honor to have him in their agency. There was a story, we didn't publish that before. There was a Brazilian news outlet called Agencia Pública. They were the first outlet to publish that. That Brunel was visiting model agencies in Brazil in 2019, a few years ago.

13:53And people knew about him. People knew what was going on, that he was being investigated, etc., etc. But even with that, he was still visiting Brazilian model agencies. And people were taking pictures with him because he was still someone huge in that market. But if you go 20 years in the past, in 2004, 2005, it was more because if you look at his name on Google, you wouldn't find anything. He would just be like this famous guy who can make anyone a star. So even like the most important, the most famous Brazilian scouters had some sort of friendship with him or wanted to reach him because he was the guy.

14:32So that's how they got access to so many agencies. And it just got worse through time. And after when you were going through the documents, what did you find out about what these individuals wanted from Epstein? And what did Epstein want from them?

14:50Abdirahim Sa:It's not always clear, right? But you can tell they, for some reason, they saw something in Epstein, right? They admired him. In some cases, you feel like they were more into Epstein than Epstein was into them. They would send him links. They would initiate contact and emails. Sometimes it was clear, though, as well. Sometimes it was a request of introductions. So the Dubai mogul we talked about in Slayim, sometimes it would just say, can you introduce me to so-and-so and can you connecting me with so-and-so I'm interested in business and sometimes it's the other way around sometimes Epstein would tell his contacts this seems interesting or you should be in touch with this person and the contacts the emails where they they get the introduction is quite interesting in itself Epstein is quite a matter of fact very direct so-and-so please meet so-and-so and so-and-so please meet so-and-so and he would leave the thread and the other two would continue the conversation right and that happened all the time in those emails quite frequently so there was a lot of introductions and sometimes it would be my impression is sometimes is one would be admiring the other a little bit more but sometimes you know equally as well I mean one character we came across in our which we which was included in our reporting is I mean he was at the time a modeling agent his name is Ramzi and he goes as an anthropologist and a musician now but at the time he again was in touch with Epstein for the best part of a decade right and in one email he actually tells Epstein you know you're a solid guy and this was after Epstein's first conviction and in the emails also he tells him you know um i know you're good for favors right no we got hold of ramsey he responded to us and he said you know he didn't know about the abuses of epstein and even after his conviction even after his first conviction he wasn't aware of the full story um you know and he was introducing epstein to women from the modeling world right and he was in fact proposing business system you know to partner in businesses and to co-invest and again um you know Ramzi told us that you know it was part of the creative development of these women that's why he was introducing them to Epstein you know it was a modeling business of course they had access to women um it was always about the business and you know that's what he told but again the nature of the emails and the language that has been used you know it's always um interesting because on one hand Ramsey told us you know I was an acquaintance right on the other hand you know he tells him you're a solid friend and you're good for favors so but other times the Epstein files can't tell us everything right and sometimes you would you would try and speak to those people you know what was going on and sometimes authorities and police forces will get involved and they will have further evidence that tells you what was going on.

18:01So it's sometimes quite clear. Sometimes the full picture is not clear. Luis, I saw you nodding and agreeing with some of what Abdu 'Rahim was saying. Were you able to decipher anything about what these people wanted from Epstein? And what was it that Epstein wanted from these people in your region? Yeah, I think in Brazil's case, we have a different direction. It was not Brazilian people who were interested in Epstein. Epstein was interested in Brazilian for some reason. So he was really, really interested in Brazilian models. So one of the stories that we published was about a huge model contest in Ecuador that happened in 2004.

18:41And after that, 2006. And I think this was the most popular story we've published. It was a Brazilian teenager girl called Glaucia. And she was invited by this model agent to go to Ecuador. And he promised everything for her. He said, you are going to win the contest. You are going to get$300 ,000. And then you are going to the U.S. with me in this airplane for free. And you are going to be a famous model. And she did part of that. She moved to Ecuador. She did the contest. But after that, her mother was suspicious. She said something like, this is not common. They promised that I would be in contact with you and it's been three weeks and we are not talking to each other.

19:26Something is wrong. Please come back. I won't let, because they needed her permission to take the daughter to the U.S. after the contest in Ecuador. And her mother said, no, you are coming back. And now, more than 20 years after that, we spoke to Glaucia and her mother. And she said something like, my mother saved me because if she moved to the West, she would probably meet Epstein. Because that's how we found out that that's how Brunel got girls for Epstein. Through these model events for the agencies, they went to the West and then after that they meet Epstein. So now Glaucia is really happy that she didn't go to the West.

20:03You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

20:15Is China the real winner from the war in Iran? I'm Asma Khalid, one of the hosts of the Global Story podcast from the BBC. As the war in Iran drags on, one big idea we keep hearing is that somehow the real winner is a country technically not even involved in the fight, China. But is that story actually true? And what does this war mean for China's long-term ambitions? Listen to The Global Story on BBC.com or wherever you listen to your favourite pods.

20:48This is The Fifth Floor, and I'm Farah Nakem E.D.

20:56Seriously, when you hear these stories, all this connection and how this network of people actually work together, You don't really have to be a conspiracy theorist to have your mind blown by the connections that exist in these documents. Do you think that the release of these documents has helped debunk some of these conspiracy theories or actually fuel them?

21:22Abdirahim Sa:It really depends because I like reading some of the comments from the audiences that we serve, for example, on publicly available forums, comments underneath stories that those who, you know, will take at face value. Here is some documents that indicate what Epstein was up to, he was in touch with, his network of people and so on. So they will take that as various value. Those who deserve to stand trial, they will. Those who were initially connected to Epstein, then that's fine. But you will get comments here and there where people are thinking, actually, what's been released is what's been officially sanctioned for them.

22:04Abdirahim Sa:right and there are there is a belief out there that there is more powerful people have been protected so the connections are mind-boggling so Epstein's in the middle he knows especially when it comes to the modeling you know world lots of influential people and then somehow also those people either some of them have been introduced to each other via Epstein but also sometimes they've met each other in a small you know it's a small world of the modeling business right again you've got Epstein who's no longer with us he he took his own life and others some others are you know just like Brunel who was connected with him also took on his own life and people are looking at those again not necessarily at face value where they will say okay who who who were they hiding The public face of this scandal, but there must be some people out there.

22:59Abdirahim Sa:And again, people are discussing and coming up with these theories without necessarily any solid proof. So it's kind of fueling the conspiracy theories even more. You agree with that, Luis? Yeah, for sure. As I said in the beginning, it was huge for journalists, but at the same time, huge for conspiracy theorists. Because you have everything you need for a conspiracy theory that you have many, many questions. And you don't necessarily have the answers. And we probably won't have those answers unless like someone goes after them. And there are so many questions that I think like it will be impossible to find all the answers.

23:35So it's really, really easy to get one email sometime with a typo. I remember this one with an email saying something like, I have a nine years old girl with me, something like that. And then we just found out that it was not nine, it was 19. And we have several copies of the same email saying 19. but in one email for a typo there was nine and I saw thousands of tweets of people saying on x that they were discussing selling a girl who was only nine at the time and things like that and that was a lie easy to fact check but if you are doing conspiracy theory you are not interested in fact checking you just want to share information and get as many people as you can talking about that So that was how hard it was for us to do real stories and compete with those people because they just publish stuff and they don't care about what comes next.

24:27And I think like when after like you publish five or six stories about the same thing, people start getting tired of the subject. They want more stuff or more extreme stuff. And we don't have that. But the conspiracy theorists, they have that. So now it's killing babies and then it's something worse and then worse, worse, worse. and how can we compete with that? It's really, really hard. Guys, thank you very much. That was fascinating. Thanks to Abdurraim Saeed from BBC Arabic and Luis Fernando Toledo from BBC News Brazil.

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