In short
Socialising, clubbing, dating, and accessibility challenges for wheelchair users; how “accessible” venues still fail in practice across the UK, Kenya, South Africa, and the US.
Guests (wheelchair users)
Maddy (18, Manchester, UK; thrown out of a club), Brian Muchiri (Kenya, Rift Valley/Nakuru; married, discusses societal attitudes), Nadia Lele Karelse (Johannesburg, South Africa; paralysed 6 years; dating and outings with children), Hayley Rosa (Florida, US; spinal cord injury; planning and communication issues).
Key claims
Accessibility is often undermined by staff attitudes, unsafe/incorrect ramps, steps, toilets used as storage, and intrusive behavior (people pushing chairs, praying/“healing” comments). Wheelchair users often pre-plan because spontaneity is exhausting.
Notable examples
Maddy removed after 5 minutes; bathroom stored in an accessible restaurant; roller rink with steps where she had to wait outside; people pushing/pulling chairs after drinks; Nadia’s partner hid her and controlled photos; dating often includes fetishizing or “pray to be healed” remarks.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOMaddy's Nightclub Experience
1:18 to 2:20
Hear about Maddy's distressing experience at a nightclub.
“Imagine how you'd feel on an evening out with friends in a nightclub when after only five minutes you're asked in front of everyone there to leave.”
Reactions from Other Wheelchair Users
2:20 to 3:47
Participants share similar experiences regarding accessibility.
“and she began by explaining how she felt when she was thrown out of the club.”
Preparing for a Night Out
3:47 to 5:28
Discuss the preparations wheelchair users make for social outings.
“Yeah, a lot of places say that they're accessible.”
Challenges in Accessible Spaces
5:28 to 7:34
Explore the various obstacles faced in supposedly accessible spaces.
“Maddy, what is a typical night out for you and how much preparation do you have to do?”
Cultural Perspectives on Disability
7:34 to 12:20
Understand how different cultures perceive disability in social settings.
“And also for me, I find a lot of places that are grandfathered in and don't have to have an elevator.”
Barriers Faced by Wheelchair Users
14:01 to 14:11
Explore the challenges wheelchair users face in social settings across four countries.
“We'll hear more from them in just a moment.”
Navigating the World of Dating
16:09 to 16:46
The discussion shifts to the challenges of dating as a wheelchair user.
“Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast on your favorite podcast app.”
Personal Dating Experiences
16:46 to 18:03
Nadia shares her traumatic dating experiences after her paralysis.
“I think I've dated like once after my accident and that alone itself was very traumatic.”
Unique Challenges Faced in Dating
18:03 to 19:25
Guests share their unique dating challenges and observations about relationships.
“So why would you ask somebody that you don't know?”
Men vs Women in Dating
19:25 to 21:55
The group discusses if it's easier for male wheelchair users to date compared to females.
“I think men generally find it easier from the guys that I know because women are more empathetic and they look beyond in general.”
Show all 13 chapters
Importance of Acknowledging Disability
21:55 to 22:52
Discussion on the significance of recognizing disability in relationships.
“I do think that's us in women's nature to be nurturing and caring as well.”
Envisioning Accessibility
22:52 to 25:04
Hayley discusses her vision for ideal accessible spaces to benefit everyone.
“And I don't know how you guys think about that.”
Ideal Club Design for Wheelchair Users
25:04 to 26:56
Maddy shares insights on what an accessible club environment should include.
“And when I go to noisy places, I struggle a lot to communicate.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Nadia Leila Carelse:This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
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1:00Nadia Leila Carelse:Listen to Choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.
1:07Nadia Leila Carelse:Hello, I'm James Reynolds. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences. This time, we get a glimpse of what it's like to socialise when you're in a wheelchair.
1:30Nadia Leila Carelse:Imagine how you'd feel on an evening out with friends in a nightclub when after only five minutes you're asked in front of everyone there to leave. This happened to 18-year-old Maddy recently in Manchester, here in the UK. Her experience was captured on social media. The club, which has since apologised, initially said it was because her wheelchair was a safety hazard. It's all prompted a larger conversation about disability and accessibility. We decided to hear then from four wheelchair users across the world about their experiences when out socialising. We have Brian Muchiri in Kenya's Rift Valley, Nadia Leila Karelsi in Johannesburg, South Africa, Hayley Rosa is in Florida in the US, plus Maddy herself in the UK.
2:20Nadia Leila Carelse:and she began by explaining how she felt when she was thrown out of the club.
2:26Haleigh Rosa:People can be quite nosy and when something's going on, everybody has a look over and tries to find out what's going on. So being in a bar where security keeps coming over and people keep coming over asking me to leave, it was really infuriating knowing that it shouldn't be happening but I can't stop it from happening. It was really dehumanising and one of the most embarrassing situations I've been put in.
2:47Nadia Leila Carelse:What kind of effect has it had on you in terms of thinking about going out clubbing again?
2:52Haleigh Rosa:I'm definitely more anxious to go to places that I haven't been before because I've never been to this bar. So I think in future I'll be a bit more cautious going to places that I haven't been before because I don't know how they're going to react or what could happen.
3:05Nadia Leila Carelse:Hayley, Brian, Nadia, does Maddie's experience sound familiar at all? Yeah.
3:11Haleigh Rosa:So for me personally, I have been to a local bar where they didn't remove me or say my chair was a hazard. However, I was just told that the chair was in the way. So they weren't happy, you know, that it was there.
3:25Maddie Haining:Yeah, I think many of us wheelchair users can relate to that in some sense because sometimes a space online will say wheelchair accessible or they can accommodate us. But the attitudes of people are unwelcome and accommodating. It can differ from broken lips or badly designed limbs or the staff not knowing how to respect us and speak to us.
3:47Haleigh Rosa:Yeah, a lot of places say that they're accessible. But when you get there, it's a different story with how they treat you and the things that they can say. happens a lot more than I think people imagine it to.
3:58Maddie Haining:And I think accessibility goes beyond them. It's also including us and giving us our dignity back and independence and not having to plan around every outing around these barriers. Life as a disabled person is already hard as it is. So we shouldn't be feeling like that.
4:16Nadia Leila Carelse:Brian, listening to Maddy and Hayley and Nadia, have you had similar experiences?
4:21Brian Muchiri:Not specifically the same kind of experience, but I relate very much with Maddie with how she says that she'd be scared to go to new places. Because from my time when I would want to go clubbing, I would concentrate on just going to this one place that I'm used to, because I'm well aware of how the accessibility is in that place and the staff are already kind of conversant with my needs. And that way I feel a bit safe and I feel like I don't have to over explain every time I need something.
4:59Haleigh Rosa:Yeah, I would have to agree with that, actually. I think it becomes more of a comfortability thing. I'm not scared to try new places. However, it's just easier to go to places that I know are accommodating and helpful. You know, the place that I went to and had that issue, I haven't been back to because I fear they are unable to accommodate a wheelchair, honestly. So, yeah, I stick to the places that I am most comfortable with, which it shouldn't have to be that way, but it just has become that way.
5:27Nadia Leila Carelse:We want to explore more fully the idea of going out and socializing and clubbing and dating. Maddy, what is a typical night out for you and how much preparation do you have to do?
5:40Haleigh Rosa:If I'm ever going to a new place, I usually look into it on social media or online, Google reviews, things like that, to make sure that, well, to be as prepared as possible. I never really expect anything bad to happen, but I like to feel more comfortable with myself and less anxious knowing I've looked into it beforehand. But it is quite rare that I'll go to places that I haven't been before.
6:02Nadia Leila Carelse:What about you, Hayley, in Florida?
6:03Haleigh Rosa:In Florida and in, I feel, the states in general, you know, I do check ahead of time if it's somewhere new. I was just in New York City visiting my sister and I had to check everywhere because most of them had steps to get in and it was really not accessible at all. You know, back at home in Florida, I'm lucky that a lot of places are accessible. However, I've encountered issues even in a restaurant that's accessible where the wheelchair accessible bathroom has been used as storage. So therefore, I don't have a bathroom. And that's nothing that I can foresee. It just was something that I had to figure out when I got there.
6:41Nadia Leila Carelse:Did you say to them, please remove your storage?
6:43Haleigh Rosa:Yes, I did, actually. And they did remove it because that was the only bathroom that I could use. Yeah. I face it quite a lot in cafes or shops or even hospitals that are, you know, you'd expect more people in chairs to be in. A lot of them, disabled toilets, are used as storage rooms.
7:01Maddie Haining:Either it's used as storage or they also just, it's normal people making use of our bathrooms. And then you're left sitting outside the toilet waiting for 10 minutes plus. But we can't hold our blood, as you know. And when it comes to planning around going to spaces, I'm always checking, like Maddie said, online, social media, and I'm always DMing businesses to just confirm because there's no spontaneity when it comes to our lives. We can't just wake up and be like, oh, I'd like to go to X, Y, and Z or travel without doing pre-planning. And it's quite exhausting.
7:33Haleigh Rosa:It's exhausting. And also for me, I find a lot of places that are grandfathered in and don't have to have an elevator. so I can't even go if I want to.
7:43Maddie Haining:Yes. And then they almost like to contradict themselves like, oh, we can't help. But you go there and they expect you to be okay with being carried up a flight of 10 steps, which is a danger in itself.
7:53Nadia Leila Carelse:That's happened to you, Nadia?
7:54Maddie Haining:Yes. So I have three young girls, daughters, and I usually like to take them around to places, but kiddies' places are not wheelchair accessible. So for example, I recently took them to a roller rink, but it was above ground. but when I called I said it's accessible. So be in mind we've traveled almost 30 minutes to get there but I had to sit outside because I think well over 15 steps but the way they were situated if I was getting carried I'd have to be lifted out of my chair. So I sat outside didn't experience my kids roller skating and then had to wait at the bottom of the steps.
8:29Nadia Leila Carelse:That sounds like a really difficult day.
8:31Maddie Haining:Yeah it was and then you don't want to show emotion because also I've got kids so I want them to feel some type of way about the disability or that it's holding them back. So at some points, I just accept defeat and I stay there if it's going to benefit them.
8:45Nadia Leila Carelse:Brian, what about your preparations as you choose to socialise? My experience is quite different here in Kenya because especially in my hometown of Nakuru,
8:56Brian Muchiri:clubs tend to be more accessible than other places for some reason. So every time I think about venturing out and trying out a new place. I just need to figure out whether it's on the ground floor. If it's on the ground floor, then nine times out of 10, they will have a good ramp. And sometimes you can ask beforehand whether it's accessible, but accessibility doesn't really mean the same for them because it could be just a ramp that is not up to standard and to them that is accessible enough. So for me, when I just find out if it's on the ground floor, I just go and I have a good time. But what I have trouble with is other club goers, because after a few drinks, you will find that they want to come and get all up in your space.
9:47Brian Muchiri:And I don't know if any of you ladies have experienced that when you go out.
9:52Haleigh Rosa:I definitely have. A lot of people come up behind me and start pushing my chair around in clubs and things like that then you turn around you're like stop please stop they don't really take it in like I've told so many people to stop pushing me around or stop touching my chair and getting in my space but once people are that drunk they don't really take the information on there was an event in August last year which I was in a bar and it was completely fully accessible it's a bar that I go to quite frequently and I went in and there was some guy I hadn't properly got through the doors yet um came over and sat on my lap and started pushing himself around while sat on my lap on my chair.
10:29Haleigh Rosa:Oh my gosh. Which is something that I'd never experienced before and I haven't experienced since but it was really eye-opening for me to think people think that that's something that's okay to do and that they can just do that. I don't think people understand how terrifying it is when they come up behind you and start to push the wheelchair honestly. It's so scary. Yeah it's very scary it's almost jolting. I do have a question for Brian. I am extremely interested in learning what the biggest hardship, I guess, would be for a wheelchair user in Kenya, in your opinion.
11:03Brian Muchiri:I think what you would have to be prepared for is the general understanding and general perspective of disability from the Kenyan society. Number one, some people view disability as bad women. And other people, when they see you as a disabled person, they tend to, I don't know the best word to use it, but they will come up to you and tell you how strong you are and tell you how they would never be able to do it if they were in that position. But the actions will actually contradict because they can be quite discriminatory at the same time. So I would tell you the thing that you have to be most prepared for is how our society treats disability.
11:50Brian Muchiri:and you kind of like have to just shut your ears and just look forward and not really pay too much attention because you'll either find people who are either too eager to want to get in your space and act like they want to help without actually being asked for help and other people who will just stare at you and want to treat you like a child. So I hope that doesn't discourage you from coming to Kenya, but you just have to be prepared for that.
12:19Haleigh Rosa:I was actually going to say the bad omen is very interesting to me. However, everything else sounds pretty similar, at least for me in the States. There are people who are so eager to help or there are people that just stare. It is quite similar, actually.
12:34Maddie Haining:I think it's very similar in South Africa as well. With regards to the bad omen, I've had people want to pray for me in a club. I recently went to a concert and somebody wants to lay hands on me and pray because they said I need to have more faith that I walk. But it's not that I have a lack of faith. I have a lot of faith. Actually, it's just that bad things happen to anybody. Anybody can be disabled at any time. You know, it's not something that you wake up one day and you're like, oh, let me just go out and get disabled. Right. It literally can happen to anybody.
13:05Brian Muchiri:So actually, that is why I stopped going to church, because most times I would go to church and the one who is delivering the scripture would use me as a case study. They would say, look at Brian, for instance, if he had enough faith, I'm sure Brian is going to work soon and you should come to the next crusade because I'm sure that God is going to do something big for Brian. and I got tired of being used like a reference point. Yeah. So I just got to a point when I just said, I would prefer to go to church and sit there and be invisible and get through the service without someone pointing at me for one reason or the other.
Read the full transcript
13:48Haleigh Rosa:But that also goes along with the whole when we're out in public thing because people will come up to me and say, can I pray for you? And it's in public. I don't even have a choice at that point because they've already started.
14:00Nadia Leila Carelse:Hayley, Brian, Maddy and Nadia on their difficulties in four different countries when visiting a bar, a club, a restaurant, even a church when you're in a wheelchair. We'll hear more from them in just a moment. I'm James Reynolds. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.
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14:47Haleigh Rosa:Based on 2025 Consumer Choice Awards from Kelley Blue Book, visit kbb.com for more information.
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15:29Nadia Leila Carelse:Mike and his guests offer their perspective on how policy changes could affect what you do with your portfolio. Download the latest episode and follow at schwab.com slash Washington Wise or wherever you listen.
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16:21Nadia Leila Carelse:So far, we've mainly heard about the physical barriers to socialising when you're in a wheelchair. Let's delve now into the always complex world of dating. A reminder that I'm joined by Maddy, Brian and Hayley. But let's hear firstly from Nadia in Johannesburg about what her dating experiences have been like since she was paralysed six years ago.
16:45Maddie Haining:It's been really bad. I think I've dated like once after my accident and that alone itself was very traumatic. He never wanted to be seen outside of me. We never went on dates. It was never, it was almost like we were being hidden. I was being hidden actually and I didn't know how to take that. I just felt like rejection and it was still, I was freshly new, paralyzed. So I was still learning how to be confident and stand up for myself. And then there was somebody that was with me that was like, don't post these pictures on Facebook. don't do this, don't do that. So I haven't navigated dating again after that because it was such a bad experience.
17:21Nadia Leila Carelse:And Hayley in Florida?
17:22Haleigh Rosa:I would say that it hasn't been great, but actually not anything to do with the wheelchair. Just I find the men here. Yeah. I'm like, how do I say this politely? They don't really care about the wheelchair. That actually has not been a standout point, to be honest. It has not changed much for me. Typically, if people care, I guess I'll find out within the first 30 seconds. I can tell in a conversation if it's going to be an issue or not. However, I do look at it as a positive because it's almost taught me who would be there in a certain situation and who I would not even want to waste my time with to begin with.
18:02Nadia Leila Carelse:Maddie, what about you?
18:04Haleigh Rosa:I haven't really faced much of it, to be honest I think a lot of situations where I've started speaking to people and there's been there's been occasions where they've been like well just pray and you'll be healed or some inappropriate comments and things like that which has then immediately shut it down I think you're not the kind of person I want to be involved in but it's in terms of actual relationships I've never really faced many problems with the chair I've also found that automatically the conversation
18:33Maddie Haining:become sexual it's as almost as if they're fascinated by the cheer and want to know if you can do this you can do that but you don't even know me I wouldn't even if I was able-bodied I wouldn't have that conversation with somebody I've experienced that and those are the people that I
18:48Haleigh Rosa:will um unmatch block yeah that is something that happens with me a lot as well like you think you wouldn't ask even an able-bodied person what they can and can't do and what they do and don't do in sexual ways. So why would you ask somebody that you don't know? It comes across in a weird form of curiosity that kind of sounds fetishizing in a way.
19:11Brian Muchiri:I've always had conversations with my friends who are also wheelchair users and we always come back to this question, is it easier for male wheelchair users to date than it is for female wheelchair users? What do you think?
19:26Maddie Haining:I think men generally find it easier from the guys that I know because women are more empathetic and they look beyond in general. But men are very like visual people, you know?
19:40Haleigh Rosa:I would agree with that. I think men are definitely visual and can get caught up in the chair.
19:46Nadia Leila Carelse:Brian, after your accident, you met the woman who went on to become your wife. Can you tell us about meeting her and your partnership and relationship with her now?
19:58Brian Muchiri:Jane and I met a few years ago on social media. I write articles about my life story and disability on my Facebook and other platforms. And that is where we initially met and we struck up a conversation on messages. And that led to us meeting up and our relationship was slow burn. It wasn't like we didn't fall head over heels for each other. It started as a friendship and went gradually into a relationship. And last year we got married and we've been living together since for one year now.
20:41Haleigh Rosa:Oh, wow. I love that. I love that you use slow burn as the term. Yeah, I had a lot of hesitation, anxiety and fear when it came to making it official and really putting things on concrete and making this big commitment.
21:01Brian Muchiri:because the reason why I asked whether it's easier for men on wheelchairs to date is because actually when I sat in this wheelchair, I got more attention from women for some reason. I think it's maybe from a point of curiosity, women wanting to know how it feels, or maybe them just wanting to be nurturing and take care of me for some reason. but I got more attention from women. But the issue has always been to sieve all that curiosity and probably even pity to find someone who really wants you for you and wants to make that commitment. So that was what came between me and wanting to take this relationship to the next level, just that kind of fear that I had at the time.
21:57Maddie Haining:I do think that's us in women's nature to be nurturing and caring as well. I'm so happy that you found someone that actually gives me hope that not all hope is lost, you know.
22:08Haleigh Rosa:The right people genuinely don't see us as people who use wheelchairs. They see us for who we are. You know, the wheelchair is just there.
22:15Brian Muchiri:I would say for me, it's always a red flag when someone tells me that they don't see the wheelchair. I know what you mean when you say it, but I actually want someone to see my disability and really feel it because I have a C5, C7 spinal cord injury. My paralysis is a very big part of who I am and it defines a lot about how I live my life. Of course, it doesn't define my mentality and the kind of person or my personality or all that kind of stuff. But I want my partner to really see it, to acknowledge it. And I don't know how you guys think about that.
22:57Haleigh Rosa:No, I agree with you. And I might have worded it differently than I should have. Of course, they should see that the wheelchair and our disability is a large part of our lives. but I think it's important that that's not the sole focus and they're able to recognize you know we are human outside of that and this injury or disability did happen but you know our personality at least for me my personality is still there I'm still funny I still like to do the things that I can do that I did before so yeah as it's largely a part so is the part of me that still has it left.
23:33Nadia Leila Carelse:With all these experiences of toilets used as storage with unexpected steps, do you have a vision of what an ideal place might look like, Hayley, in Florida?
23:45Haleigh Rosa:Yeah, I think accessibility honestly just benefits everybody. So no steps, larger bathroom stalls perhaps, just a wide open area. We can make those beautiful as well.
23:56Maddie Haining:If I would collaborate with summary, I would first think of navigating the parking, the entrances, the lifts and the bathrooms. And also, we don't think about bar stools being lower because sometimes if we're sitting in a bar, the stool is so high and your friends are all sitting on these chairs and then you've got to look up and they're looking down, which makes it a bit awkward, making all things like equal level. So people are sitting with us and it doesn't look as if they're doing us a favour by having us there. Lower pain points, easy accessible bathrooms with the lower sink, lower mirror, just so we can enjoy the night as well with people.
24:32Brian Muchiri:Just what would be like a good level table where you can just roll down using your wheelchair. Sometimes we find that in clubs or in these lounges where we go to socialize, the tables are either mostly they are lower than for a person who is on a wheelchair. So it's quite difficult to even grab your drink or share a meal with your friends because you are always trying to reach down at something. So if they would have that, then it would be good. For some reason, that's why I stopped going to clubs because of my spinal cord injury, I'm not able to really project my voice that far. And when I go to noisy places, I struggle a lot to communicate.
25:20Brian Muchiri:it. So that's why I prefer going to lounges now where the music isn't that high, isn't so loud, and I'm able to have a conversation with my friends without having to shout and lose my voice in the process.
25:33Haleigh Rosa:The barstool issue is actually a good call out because that is a huge annoyance, I'm not going to lie. And I find a lot of restaurants serve happy hour only at a bar. Yes. We can't sit at the bar.
25:45Maddie Haining:You know the revolving sushi we're going around? I can never partake in that it has my face to show because I can't reach the top. Then somebody has supported to me, you know?
25:56Nadia Leila Carelse:Maddy, we began looking at, you know, the terrible experience you had at a club. Is there in your mind the ideal design for what a club would look like so that you and other wheelchair users could have just a really good time?
26:09Haleigh Rosa:I think it would all be step three, smooth flooring because carpets are a nightmare for me personally. rugs and things like that are not fun to reel on. They usually pull me one side or another side. Multiple disabled toilets and accessible toilets not used as storage rooms, just completely free and enough room to be able to fully move around in it as well with sinks that you can get underneath and the bar as well lowered down because it's so hard to order a drink when you can't see the person that you're speaking to, especially when there's loud music, being the bar is usually around the same height as my head.
26:49Haleigh Rosa:So it's really hard a lot of the time to be able to look over it and be able to speak to people to order a drink at the bar.
26:56Nadia Leila Carelse:Maddy Haining here in the UK, Brian Muchiri in Kenya, Nadia Lele Karelse in South Africa and Hayley Rosa in the United States. Our thanks to all of them for giving us an insight into what it's like to experience life in a wheelchair across so many areas. I'm James Reynolds. You've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.
27:27Nadia Leila Carelse:Bring on the off-road. Bring home a new Honda. With a great deal on your favourite Honda vehicles. Conquer trails and back roads in cars built for exploring. With the rugged Honda Pilot, Ridgeline, CR-V, and Passport, the road might stop, but you're not done. All from the 2025 Kelley Blue Book Best Value brand. For great deals, visit your local Chicagoland and Northwest Indiana Honda dealer today.
27:53Haleigh Rosa:Based on 2025 Consumer Choice Awards from Kelley Blue Book, visit kbb.com for more information.
From the publisher
Imagine being dressed up for a night out with friends and being thrown out of a bar because your wheelchair is considered a fire hazard. When 18-year-old Maddie Haining was ordered to leave a nightclub in the UK it prompted a wider discussion about disability and accessibility in different countries around the world. Four wheelchair users - Maddie in the UK, Brian Muchiri in Kenya, Nadia Leila Carelse South Africa and Haleigh Rosa in the US - share some of the obstacles they have encountered when trying to socialise. Their experiences range from drunks in bars grabbing their wheelchairs to people praying for them in public. Even a simple visit to the toilet can become a problem. “I’ve encountered issues, even in a restaurant that’s accessible, where the wheelchair accessible bathroom has been used as storage,” says Haleigh Rosa, from Florida, USA.
