Navigating the Strait of Hormuz

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

0:30Make your travel dollars work harder. Follow Smart Travel on your favorite podcast app. Investing with Schwab is like a hike with endless trails that get you to the same beautiful sunset. Go solo with self-directed investing. Choose a guide with full-service wealth management. Or take stops along the way with trading, automated investing, and planning for college or retirement. Schwab gives you the map and the gear, all in one place. No matter which trails you take, you can invest your way with Schwab.

1:09Hello, I'm James Reynolds. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences. This time, what's it like to be a sailor in the Strait of Hormuz? Bordered by Iran to the north and the UAE and Oman to the south, the Strait of Hormuz is vital to the world's energy needs. Some 20 % of global oil and liquefied natural gas is usually carried through the narrow corridor by around 3 ,000 ships a month. But since the US and Israel attacked Iran, the country has in effect blocked the strait, sending global fuel prices soaring.

1:51Iran has targeted ships in the area. It's estimated that over 20 vessels have been hit and at least eight people killed. In our conversations, we wanted to get a sense of what it's like to be a sailor navigating the Strait of Hormuz. Later, we'll hear concerns for the seafarers trapped on ships in the region, worried about supplies of fresh water, food, fuel. Firstly, though, we're going to hear from three people familiar with the area. Captain John Noble is a former marine surveyor who's spent a lot of time in the southern Persian Gulf. Tom Sauer is a former U.S. naval officer, and Salmer Cogliano was a deck officer in commercial shipping.

2:30The Strait of Hormuz is one of those narrow little maritime choke points. It's not quite as congested as the English Channel or the Strait of Malacca, but there's steady traffic through it. You have a lot of small little craft, dows and fishing vessels there. And you're always kind of very aware that right off as you sail into the Strait of Hormuz, right off your right side of the starboard side is Iran. You can see it as you pass by. What kind of precautions do you take? It depends on the nature. Obviously, during different times, there are concerns about it. Lots of times you have to worry about the IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, coming out with their boats.

3:06There's usually some sort of harassment or radio calls on the VHF channel that you'd get. But, you know, most of the time you're able to sail through without really any major issues. But from time to time, Iran has made a point of targeting ships coming in and out of that strait. So Sal, you worked as a commercial deck officer, but let's bring in Tom, a former U.S. naval officer. What did you need to do in the Persian Gulf from a naval, from a military point of view, to keep the channel open? When we would transit through my first ship, when I was a young junior officer, USS Kearsarge, we would often try to transit at night because we, of course, did not want the Marines to know where our ships were.

3:46The Kearsarge was a very large ship. It's a small aircraft carrier, in essence. we would reconfigure the lights on our ship to make us look like a merchant vessel so the iranians wouldn't because they don't have oh yeah absolutely it's called it's called deceptive lighting we would only we would and we would only broadcast with our civilian radar we turn all of our military radars off and we would just transit through quietly because usually at night at i mean 24 7 there's a ton of merchant traffic going through and at night it's very dark on the ocean And the only way you can see ships is through the lightning.

4:18And furthermore, also, to piggyback on what Sal said, we would get harassed on VHF, you know, the commercial radio station. They'd scream obscenities at us quite often. They constantly query us. And then another time. Did you swear back? No, we're for. Oh, we wanted to. You have to sit there on the bridge and just don't respond while you're on the bridge on a quiet bridge transiting, paying attention while you've got Iranians screaming obscenities at you in English. and uh oh they know they put they play audio from pornography all sorts of terrible stuff just to make your life miserable and then uh additionally one time we did transit out of the straight during the day and during the day while we were alongside we had just left the straight and we were pulled up alongside our supply a refueling ship and we're connected side to side getting gas and during that time we were overflown we were essentially as we'd say buzzed by an iranian p3 and i was on the flight deck at that time and I saw a P3 coming which is a four engine patrol craft that's meant to find other vessels and I thought oh hey there's one of our planes they're flying over and as it got closer I said wait the paint scheme doesn't look like ours and he flew right over us and it was we saw the Iranian flag and he got low enough I could see the pilot wow from where he was that close yeah they do not like us being uh in their neighborhood Captain John Noble let's bring you into the conversation.

5:41Were you, as Sal was, aware of the proximity of Iran, which, even at the best of times, had an incredibly tense relationship with the West and Western vessels? Very much so. I mean, we would be working, for example, off Abu Dhabi, and Iranian patrol craft would come and have a look and see what we were doing. Our operations were completely commercial. There was no military aspect at all. that the Iranians did want to know what was going on. Did you tell them? No, we didn't say anything to them. Right, so like Tom, you kept your silence. And let's bring back in Sal, former commercial deck officer.

6:27At any point, did you have to go through drills on your ship about what happened if things got really serious? Well, we would. I mean, that was always an issue. Everything from boarding operations to damage control, that was routine. Again, every mariner on board a ship is a firefighter. The issue on commercial ships, unlike Tom's voyage through, is we have much smaller crews on board, so we have less capability to do it. And so we were always prepared for really any contingency. And, you know, depending on when you went through that region, it could be different threats, the small boat threats, missiles, and then there's always the danger of mines.

7:04And Tom, presumably you were on standby to pick up calls from vessels like Sal saying, look, we might need your help. Yes, absolutely. We had a number of attack helicopters, conventional passenger helicopters and Harriers as well at that time. And also my ship had a thousand sailors and two thousand Marines who were very eager to kill anyone that we would let them kill. So we were very much, you know, they're the U.S. Marines. So they were ready for a fight. Tom, what kind of your experience, what kind of insight does that give you into what's happening right now in the strait? Well, after my career as a service warfare officer, I became what's called a Navy EOD officer, a bomb disposal officer, better known in the U.K.

7:50as a clearance diver. Our job is to dismantle mines. So right now I am in close communication with all of my friends who are in the Persian Gulf right now who are preparing most likely for a contingency to clear the Strait of Hormuz. And it is something that I can say that the United States Navy has been planning and preparing and training for for longer than I have been alive. And Captain John Noble, given the situation at the moment, if you were called and said, look, we've got a job for you, it means you have to go back to the southern Persian Gulf, not far from the Strait of Hormuz, would you consider accepting that job?

8:28Yes, at the end of the day, as a civilian operator, you're relying on the military to defend you, but you've still got a job to do. And there is good liaison, and there certainly was in my day, between the military forces and the civilians who were working there. So, yes, it's a bit nerve-wracking. But at the same time, you've got a job to do, so you just get on and do it. You know, we talk about the Strait of Hormuz being this narrow little choke point. But in truth, the entire Persian Gulf is. I mean, it's only 100 miles wide at its widest point. You're always kind of right there in the shadow of Iran as you head all the way up to Kuwait and Iraq.

9:10So, I mean, there's always that kind of omnipresent view of that Iran is there, and they can always make your day very bad. On a clear day, Sal, just to be clear, what could you actually see of the Iranian coast? You get very hazy days in the Persian Gulf. I mean, I was at a dock where we got hit by a sandstorm and had zero visibility. But you can have those clear days where actually you are within sight. You can see the Iranian coast. I mean, it's brown, mountainous, but you do see a lot of traffic in and out. So a lot of fishing boats, a lot of Iranian small coastal boats in and around. And then the ever-present, you know, oil tankers and natural gas carriers.

9:49I mean, you just that's what's kind of the heart there of the Persian Gulf. Tom, I imagine you had pretty good binoculars being on a U.S. naval ship. Did you spend a lot of time looking at that coast? Yes, we absolutely did. And not just transiting the strait, but all over. And yeah, you could see the mountains and all that in various parts, whether it's along the Strait or elsewhere in the Persian Gulf. Later, in my later years, I worked on a smaller ship and we were at the Iraqi oil terminals, which was only about two miles from Iranian territorial waters. And I routinely had RPGs pointed at us by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy just outside of Iraqi territorial waters in 2008, 2009.

10:30What did you feel as your ship sailed away? You know, being in the Persian Gulf in the U.S. Navy is always a very, you know, can be a little stressful at times. But hey, that's what we paid for. That's what we signed up for. And that's what we're there for. But I can definitely say that usually once we let usually once we left the Persian Gulf, that meant that we were heading home usually. And it was just and the ocean opens up. There's a little less traffic and everyone breathes and sleeps a little easier. Sal, Tom and John sharing their experiences of navigating the region around the Strait of Hormuz.

11:04I'm James Reynolds. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

11:16Have you or a loved one ever suffered from an exploded head due to an extreme energy drink? Hi, this is Larry Deathstein, attorney at law. Every day, thousands of Americans pound extreme energy drinks and literally explode their heads right off. At Deathstein and Partners, we fight for you. So take action today. It's stopped by the Deathstein and Partners office, where we only serve Liquid Death's new sparkling energy. A better for you energy drink. There's nothing extreme about it. With only 100 milligrams of caffeine, that's equal to a cup of coffee. Plus, Liquid Death Energy has got zero sugar and none of that freaky stuff like sucralose or aspartame.

11:57When it comes to extreme energy justice, Deathstein and partners will fight to the death. Also, if you're not near our office, you can still try Liquid Death Sparkling Energy at fine retailers like 7-Eleven. Or learn more at liquiddeath.com. Where? Liquiddeath.com. With markets changing and living costs rising, finding a reliable place to grow your money matters now more than ever. In the Wealthfront Cash account, your uninvested cash can earn up to 3.95 % APY. That's a 0.65 % boost over an already high rate for three months just for being a new client. There are no monthly account fees or minimums, and you get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts 24-7.

12:39So you always have access to your money when you need it. And when you're ready to invest, you can transfer your cash to one of Wealthfront's expert built portfolios in just minutes. More than 1 million people already use Wealthfront to save and build wealth with confidence. Get started today at Wealthfront.com.

13:28We'll be right back.

13:43During this latest conflict, the US has not so far deployed any warships to the Strait of Hormuz. Instead, it's targeted the Iranian Navy from the air and Iranian anti-ship cruise missile sites along the coast. A recent call by President Trump for other countries, including both US allies and China, to help secure the strait by sending warships met with little enthusiasm. And the level of enthusiasm matters to me. We have some countries where we have 45 ,000 soldiers, great soldiers, protecting them from harm's way. And we have done a great job. And we want to know, do you have any minesweepers?

14:27Well, we'd rather not get involved, sir. President Trump speaking on Monday. The previous week, he told Fox News that oil tanker crews should show some guts and continue to sail through the Strait of Hormuz. On Thursday, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Japan put out a joint statement expressing readiness to contribute appropriate efforts to ensure safe passage through the strait. However, there are few details about what those efforts might look like. As we record this programme, on Friday lunchtime, Iran appears to be allowing a limited number of ships through its waters, but for the vast majority, this vital shipping channel remains blocked.

15:08That leaves hundreds of ships and thousands of sailors stranded in the Persian Gulf. To get a sense of what those seafarers are facing, my colleague Rahul Tandon brought together Alexander Prokopakis. He's the executive director of the International Bunker Industry Association. They represent the industry that refuels ships at sea. Jacqueline Smith is the maritime coordinator for the International Transport Workers Federation. The Federation has been receiving messages from crews. What they're saying is that they're frightened. They don't know what's going on. They're wondering when they'll be able to get out of the area for those that are stuck there.

15:48They're asking if they can go home. But recently, they've been contacting us because they're concerned that they're going low on provisions. For us, a major concern about what you just mentioned is spoofing and jamming. There are instances, as we know, vessels of our members had a direct attack and they were not able to contact the crew, and that's unfortunate. I'm very pleased that Jacqueline mentioned that she had some WhatsApps and some direct photos of her colleagues, because what we see right now is a lot of information flooding people and wrong messages can be put around as we live in a very dangerous, unprecedented in some cases situation because it's unfortunate that shipping and our seafarers are being attacked and they have no part in this thing.

16:39It is a very difficult situation for seafarers and I presume for their families as well. You must be in touch with families, your organisations of some of those seafarers going into that area who must be extremely worried at the moment, Alexander. They are. And, you know, we come to a critical point that, you know, the majority of the vessels are out of the area if you see it on a global scale. But there's always concern on the families of the seafarer. What if my management company, my charger, asked me to go there and how this will be handled? And, you know, there's a lot of things. There is an economic factor, of course, because they will get more money if that happens.

17:22Then we have contradictory messages like they're very uncalled for. And I said it last week, they're very uncalled from President Trump's message to show some guts. These are not helping the industry and definitely are not helping the unified message that I even think IDF has said is that the number one concern of all of us should be human life and attention on the seafarers. So we feel for them. We feel the concerns that they have for the ones that they are inside and what will happen. And of course, to the ones in the probability that they will be asked to come there. We're trying to get information.

17:59We as an association always say to be very cautious and take the best measures for the best way to avoid the area. It is concerning for the families and there have been several family members that have contacted us. Unfortunately, we've dealt with or dealing with one case where a seafarer has lost his life. So the daughter and son have been in contact with us and we're trying to deal with that issue. I'm really pleased that Alexander is also in agreement about, and I know that the industry is in agreement, that this is an unacceptable situation. This is, and for governments, leaders of governments to say that seafarers need to show some guts.

18:44These are very brave human beings that transport 90 % of everything. And they deserve better than saying, you know, you have to take a chance. it's easy to tell someone to take a chance when it's not you risking your life for someone that you love. Jacqueline, a lot of the seafarers come from places like the Philippines and India, don't they? And is it harder for them in a way because economically they have to work, they're providing for their families back home. Are you getting a sense of hearing from seafarers who feel under a lot of pressure to maybe go on trips that maybe they don't want to go on?

19:22We've moved on a bit within the industry. So a lot of seafarers, they do enjoy the job and I understand why. It's fantastic. It can be a fantastic career. But yeah, of course, you know, they come from developing economic countries and they want to provide a better life for their families and make sure that their children get an education. But even seafarers that when I've done ship visits, they want to encourage their children to go to sea for some of the seafarers. The biggest thing is, is that it's a lot of months away from home. The standard is nine months plus minus a month on board and then they're home for two or three months and they go back out again.

20:06So they are there because they want to make good money, of course, and to be able to provide for their family. But they also see opportunities because a lot of seafarers, they end up taking work within the industry itself on shore. Alexander, can I ask you, it's difficult to get a picture, isn't it, of what's going on within the strait? We know that some ships, Indian ships, have been able to go through the Strait of Hormuz. We know that other ships may have been attacked. What picture are you getting from your members of what it's like inside the Strait of Hormuz at the moment? The picture that we get is uncertainty and fear.

20:44That's for sure. This uncertainty of what's going on, because, you know, you might think you're in a safe area and nothing has happened near you, because as you can understand, it is, we say it's the Strait of Hormuz, but it is a big area. So in some situation, the crew, the vessel, the owners feel they are safe. But then, you know, you're here next to you, unfortunately, next to you, not in your ship, an attack and, you know, this fear automatically comes to everybody how this will develop. The same goes to port levels. We know about attacks in infrastructure and ports. So it is a situation that at the least it's uncomfortable.

21:27But I think fear is the one that is more described. And, you know, that's the worst thing, as I said before about seafarers, that it is a great job to be in, but what they have to go through with the situation right now, it's really unfair. I think, Alexander, that majority of people don't really understand the important work that they do. We've always called the industry, we call them the unsung heroes. And we did that under COVID, which was why we got them defined as key workers. But people don't understand that we're talking about on the news, it's a lot about ships being stuck. Well, seafarers being stuck on ships in the area.

22:09That's the reality of it. And then we're talking about, oh, inflation. But why should seafarers be risking their lives so that we keep the inflation down? They didn't start this. They didn't start the hostilities and they shouldn't be the ones having to pay a price. And she mentioned, like you mentioned, a very good point about essential workers. And, you know, People, unfortunately, haven't done a very good job in the industry that we move 80 % to 90 % of the trade, the goods in the world. And if shipping would stop, all economies, with no exception, would collapse in 90 days. So what is the backbone of shipping that supports the economy?

22:51Seafarers. They are the A to Z. And unfortunately, they're in a very bad situation. like the chicken said, they had nothing to do with it. They just caught exactly what we hear in the movies in the crossfire. And this is very unfortunate. Yeah, and that's one of the things because everyone's trying to talk about how to get them out. Well, I think the only safe way to get them out is if the hostilities stop. That's just how it is. You know, I know there's conversations about naval forces, convoys, but I don't think that, at least if I had been a seafarer, I don't know if I want to go in a convoy and then put a target on my back.

23:27for siding with one side or the other. So the only way that this is going to be better for the seafarers is if they stop the hostilities. And the provisions, you know, when you start getting low on provisions, then governments need to consider how can they get the provisions out. You're talking about fuel, you're talking about water, you're talking about food, and that has to come out to those ships that are stuck, and they're most likely stuck on Anchorage. So I'd like to see governments starting to have some real conversations on how to ensure that those provisions are replenished. It's a small hotel.

24:04You need everything. They need food, they need water, they need supplies. But again, at the end, they need fuel because, you know, even if you had provisions because you weren't able to get them, the Strait of Rumuzet and the Gulf Ferry over there. What we need to know is the third largest bankoring port of the world. So people were expecting in or out. They might have cut fuel. And now they're in a situation that they cannot get the fuel. So you might have provisions. You might not have fuel or it could be vice versa. So it's a situation that you handle that it's very, very hard. And, you know, if there were the vessels that they would do the long voyages and the ports weren't convenient, they're lacking enough and they're folding both, then okay.

24:50But, you know, it will come to a point as long as this situation continues that they need to get provisions, water, leave out the garbage. It's small things that it's not one or the other. It's a lot of things that they go in the operation of a vessel. And I think the biggest challenge was that no one knew this was coming. It just all of a sudden. So if they knew things were going to happen, They could prepare better. But we didn't know it was coming. It just all of a sudden, it starts and then they're stuck. That's why, what is the IMO? I think they've estimated 20 ,000 seafarers are stuck in the area.

25:30So that's a lot. The IMO, of course, the International Maritime Organization. Final thoughts from both of you here. And picking up on that point, Jacqueline, that you made there about people not being ready for this. Unfortunately, we live in this uncertain time. So would there have been much preparation? I mean, how do seafarers, are they prepared for these sorts of situations arising? Will they have training to go? Because, I mean, it must be incredibly stressful for them mentally, physically. There's been more focus on seafarers' mental health from the industry in the last probably four years, which is really good.

26:10But I don't think that you can really prepare for this, you know. Some of the ships operating in areas where there's piracy, so they might have some idea about that. But to this scale, I don't think that anyone is. Like nobody can ever be prepared on that. And what are you going to do, even if you know you're going to stop going? How early are you going to stop visiting the area? Because the global trade cannot stop. And the only way to restore the shipping operations is ending the conflict. and to resume the operations, there has to be diplomacy and peace. The world's just gone crazy. Jacqueline and Alexander discussing the fate of seafarers in the Gulf.