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Podcast Episode Notes: The Documentary Podcast - "New Elements"
Episode Overview Title: New Elements Description: This episode explores the quest for element 120 on the periodic table at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California. Cosmologist Andrew Pontzen interviews scientists involved in creating this super-heavy element, delving into the motivations and historical context of their work.
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Key Themes and Concepts
The Quest for Element 120
- Element Creation Process:
- Super-heavy elements have 104 protons or more.
- Created through nuclear fusion using a cyclotron, which collides lighter atomic nuclei.
- The creation of element 120 is both a scientific challenge and a pursuit of knowledge.
Scientific Motivations
- Curiosity and Discovery:
- Scientists are driven by the desire to understand the universe and push the boundaries of knowledge.
- Historical context emphasizes the importance of discoveries in shaping modern technology (e.g., smoke detectors, concrete scanners).
- Historical Significance:
- The episode references past discoveries and the role of notable figures in nuclear physics, such as Glenn Seaborg and Ernst Rutherford.
- It highlights the geopolitical implications of element discovery, particularly during the Cold War.
Personal Insights from Scientists
- Conversations with Researchers:
- Jacqueline Gates and Jennifer Poor express the excitement of potentially discovering element 120, likening it to a legacy of scientific achievement.
- Carol and Jose Alonso, who contributed to the discovery of the last new element at Berkeley, reflect on their experiences and the continuing pursuit of new elements.
Challenges of Discovery
- Scientific and Ethical Dilemmas:
- The episode addresses the pressure to achieve results, including the infamous case of Viktor Ninov, who fabricated data during the discovery of element 118.
- It raises questions about competition and national pride in scientific research.
The Future of Element Discovery
- Impact on Society:
- The potential applications of new elements are speculative but can lead to significant advancements in technology.
- Researchers emphasize the importance of fundamental science and the beauty of discovery, stating that knowledge itself is a valuable pursuit.
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Key Takeaways
- The pursuit of creating new elements reflects a blend of scientific curiosity, competition, and historical context.
- Researchers at Berkeley are on the brink of potentially creating element 120, fueled by a desire to extend the periodic table.
- The motivations behind scientific discovery are complex, intertwining personal pride, the quest for knowledge, and the desire for practical applications.
- The legacy of previous discoveries shapes current research, highlighting the ongoing significance of element creation in our understanding of the universe.
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Conclusion The episode offers a profound look into the world of heavy element research, illustrating not just the technical aspects of element creation but also the human stories and historical legacies that drive such scientific endeavors. Andrew Pontzen's journey through the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory not only highlights the complexity of modern physics but also the timeless human desire to explore and understand the unknown.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOUnderstanding Super Heavy Elements
0:27 to 1:12
Explaining the significance of super heavy elements and how they are created.
“For the BBC World Service, this is the documentary.”
The Role of the Cyclotron
1:12 to 2:19
Describing the function and importance of the cyclotron in experiments.
“that has never before existed on planet Earth.”
Creating New Elements
2:19 to 4:32
Exploration of the process used to create new elements and the challenges involved.
“We're now on top of the main particle accelerators.”
The Physics Behind Element Discovery
4:32 to 5:56
Discussing the physics of accelerating ions and the challenges of element discovery.
“minuscule central nucleus that makes the atom what it is.”
Historical Perspectives on Element Discovery
5:56 to 8:10
Looking at historical examples of how new elements were discovered and their implications.
“So when you're trying to bring two nuclei together, it's like trying to bring two north ends of a magnet together.”
Reflections from Discovery Pioneers
8:10 to 14:06
Interview with pioneers of element discovery reflecting on their experiences and motivations.
“So one is americium that is in smoke detectors in people's houses.”
The Importance of Discovery in Science
14:06 to 15:06
Explore the significance of fundamental science and the human drive for discovery.
“I would love if there are one day applications, but I don't know if that's the case.”
The Quest for Element 120
15:06 to 16:14
Join physicist Andrew Ponson as he investigates the production of Element 120.
“You're listening to The Documentary from the BBC World Service.”
Detecting Super-Heavy Elements
16:14 to 17:47
Learn how scientists detect fleeting super-heavy elements like Element 120.
“you've got rid of all of the other annoying atoms that came with it.”
The Legacy of Element Discovery
17:47 to 18:35
Understand the historical context and legacy surrounding the discovery of new elements.
“The sheer amount of electric charge makes it hard for it to stay glued together and that's a big part of the reason why we don't naturally find these super heavy elements on Earth.”
Show all 15 chapters
The Darker Roots of Element Discovery
18:35 to 20:08
Delve into the controversial history of element discovery during the Cold War era.
“that past can't be untangled from its darker roots.”
The Competition in Element Discovery
20:08 to 21:19
Explore the fierce competition in element discovery and its implications.
“why do you think people get involved in this line of research?”
Collaboration and Geopolitical Shifts
21:19 to 23:02
Discover how collaboration between US and Russian scientists shifted over time.
“And he was the rising star of element discovery.”
Complex Motivations Behind Element Discovery
23:02 to 24:49
Uncover the complex motivations driving scientists in their pursuit of new elements.
“the bottom there you can see berkeley and california but remember berkeley's coming back from taking a big hit with Viktor Ninov.”
The Personal Impact of Discovering Element 120
24:49 to 26:06
Hear personal reflections from researchers on the significance of discovering Element 120.
“But there is at least an underlying simplicity to asking, what is the universe made from?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01We're going to go through the main doors into the cyclotron facility. It's like a kind of giant cavern with a giant box in the middle of the cavern. Yeah, so we're actually standing directly outside of the main cyclotron vaults. Separating us from the cyclotron is about 10 feet of concrete right now. Is that a safety thing? Yes. The radiation fields that the cyclotron generates when it is running are quite high. For the BBC World Service, this is the documentary. I'm on the hillside above Berkeley, California. And while it feels like I've entered an end-of-the-world bunker, I'm not here to witness destruction.
0:41I'm here to understand creation. My name is Jennifer Poore, and I'm a research scientist working in the heavy element program at Berkeley Lab. My name is Jacqueline Gates. I am the group leader of the heavy element group. We study super heavy elements. A super heavy element is any element with 104 protons or more. Back in the 40s, when we were beginning to understand nuclear science, we didn't think that these elements could exist. Now these researchers have worked out how to make another one. How to manufacture an entirely new super-heavy element that has never before existed on planet Earth.
1:16We have to make these in collisions where we combine nuclei of two lighter atoms together. So the cyclotron is the heart of every experiment that we do. I'm physicist Andrew Ponson and this is the search for element 120. Jacqueline Gates and Jennifer Poor at the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab are the latest leaders to tackle the hardest experiment in physics, making something totally new. I'm fascinated by processes of creation. My day job is studying the way that atoms, planets, stars, galaxies and the entire universe were formed over a tumultuous 13.8 billion years. Some of the heaviest, rarest elements like gold, platinum and potentially even super heavy elements are made in the collisions of neutron stars.
2:07People creating new elements here on Earth bring that remote universe a bit closer to home. Still, I'd like to get to the bottom of why anyone would go to the trouble of producing new elements because it's far from straightforward. We're now on top of the main particle accelerators. We are directly on top. That hole right there is looking down into the cyclotron if you were able to actually get your head there. You probably don't want to get your head there. It's incredibly noisy. There are machines everywhere. They are joined with pipes. They're joined with cables. I mean, it's like something out of a Hollywood set designer's fevered imaginations of what it's like to be a scientist.
2:50So this is Venus, the best ion source in the world. So an ion, it's a bit of an atom. So an atom is made up of protons and neutrons that form a nucleus at the centre of your atom, and then it's surrounded by a cloud of electrons. You usually would have the exact same number of positively charged protons that you do negatively charged electrons, and they completely balance out that charge overall. but when we create an ion now we remove one of these negatively charged electrons and we have an excess of positively charged protons so overall the atom will have a positive charge. And it's the overall charge that lets you actually push this thing around and do interesting things with it?
3:35Yes exactly so the overall charge lets us use magnetic fields and electric fields to accelerate and move these ions to where we want them to go. So what sets the super heavy atoms that you're trying to make apart from these ones that you actually start with? There are 90 elements that exist naturally here on earth. We put 118 elements on the periodic table and so to get the rest of those elements we have to make them ourselves using nuclear reactions. You start with a beam, which are the ions that we're talking about, and then you accelerate that ion onto a target, which is made up of a heavier nucleus, and you hope that in that nuclear reaction they'll fuse, and then you're getting up to that almost 120 number for a super heavy element.
4:28I'm just about keeping up. They take normal atoms, rip off the outer layers, and are left with the minuscule central nucleus that makes the atom what it is. Then the colossal equipment is designed to accelerate and smash those tiny nuclei into other nuclei. If they do it just right, sometimes the nuclei will stick together. The result? A very heavy nucleus. In other words, the nucleus of element 120, perhaps within a year or two. On the timescales of scientific discovery, that's imminent. This sense that the team could soon recreate what nature only manages in explosive, far-off, unfamiliar corners of the universe gives me a first taste of what's driving them.
5:14To compete with the universe's own approach to manufacturing, the nuclei must be given enormous energy. And that happens inside those foreboding concrete walls of the cyclotron. That window there is looking into the center region of the cyclotron. So if I were to look in there and I had the right kind of vision to be able to see these individual ions whizzing around really fast. You would see individual ions spiraling out from the center of the cyclotron and then they come out through that pipe right there. Just how fast are you trying to get these things moving? We accelerate to about 10 % the speed of light.
5:56nuclei are protons and neutrons. Those protons are positively charged. So when you're trying to bring two nuclei together, it's like trying to bring two north ends of a magnet together. They're going to repel each other. You need to bring them together with a lot of energy and a lot of force to overcome that repulsion. We do that with speed. As well as getting them up to such high speeds though, presumably you need to get them exactly on target. So what we try to do is we try to shoot as many ions as possible in that general area. So we have as many chances as possible for nuclei to interact. So something like 10 trillion ions a second down our beam line and hitting our target.
6:37If we're trying to make something like nobelium, which is 10 protons heavier than anything you can find on Earth, we can make like six a second. But if we're trying to make something that we recently did with libermorium, which has 116, we got one atom in 10 days. And that was for an element that we already know. If we're trying to make something new, it could be one every 100 or 200 days. All this time, energy and expertise is being poured into just potentially making one atom of the new element. I can't put it off any longer. We take a break away from the machinery, and I ask Jekyll and Gates why they're doing this.
7:21I would answer this by actually going back to the early 1900s to Ernst Rutherford's lab. He was really interested in alpha decay, this newly discovered type of radiation. He wanted to know what happens if I fire these alpha particles through a thin gold foil. So he sent one of his colleagues off to do it. This colleague reported back that some of the alpha particles bounced off at really odd angles. Within a few years, it revolutionized the way we understand the structure of an atom. And that experiment, that laid the groundwork for a lot of modern-day technology that we have today. Computers, smartphones, nuclear fusion.
8:02In fact, I think a lot of the technologies that we have today have similar backstories. I can point to artificially produced elements that are used every day in applications today. So one is americium that is in smoke detectors in people's houses. Californium that is used to determine the foundation of your house, how dense it is. So a lot of these elements that we have discovered have practical uses. And that's the research that we're doing. We don't know where this is going to lead us, but we hope that the discoveries that we make helps us find new technologies that we can't imagine now, just like Rutherford couldn't imagine smartphones in the 1900s when he was studying alpha decay.
8:49Concrete scanners and smoke detectors are certainly lifesavers, but this explanation doesn't quite cut it for me. My own field, cosmology, is sometimes also justified by its practical offshoots, but these potted justifications don't explain why we explore the universe. So to understand why anyone would want so badly to create a new element, I decide to talk to two scientists who have already done it. Hello. Hello. I assume you're Jose. Yes, I'm Jose. That's correct, yes. Hi, this is Carol. Hi, lovely to meet you. I'm Andre. Please come in. I've taken a winding taxi ride through the Berkeley Hills to find the home of Jose and Carol Alonso, the two remaining members of a team who, 50 years ago, made the last new element to be created in the Berkeley Lab.
9:41I pulled out those books from our 106 days. I haven't looked at them in 50 years. This is me. I'm like 22. Wow. The picture you're showing us is from around what time when you moved? 1974. 1974. At the time that we discovered LLM 106. That was just a few years after Carol and Jose moved across the country to join the lab. We were at Yale working down in the basement with the computers and the phone rang and it was somebody calling from Berkeley and he said, Glenn Seaborg would like you and Jose to come and work at Berkeley. Will you come? I didn't even ask him. I said, yes, we'll come. By this point, Seaborg was a huge name already.
10:28What was he famous for at that point in time? For all the elements he had discovered. And his Nobel Prize was for the discovery of plutonium. He was quite famous, yes, there's no question about it. Glenn Seaborg had played a role in discovering nine new elements. Alongside him in the lab was Albert, or Al, Giorzo, who had already discovered 11. It was with these titans of nuclear physics that they began their new work. It's on the surface very simple. Namely, 106 has 106 protons. So you want to get a target, which was Californium, which is 98 protons. And then oxygen, which is 8 protons. So that's the two of them together is 106.
11:13So you bombard them, and if they fuse, then you've got element 106. We were seeing one atom at a time. But you want enough that it's statistically believable for everybody else. So we ended up with about 60 or 70. Around the same time, there was a team in Russia working on making exactly the same atom. Were you skeptical of what they were doing? How did you feel about the competition? People all along, and in the end, even though they say today they did it, they did not. Do you think that reflects the political side to this, that there is a sort of national side to element discovery? There always has been.
11:57Especially in the Cold War. In the middle of looking for element 106, I needed to go to a conference in Tennessee. So I get there, and I get in the elevator with four Russians. when they knew the Americans were going to announce that they'd found a new element. They had this habit of announcing that they had found it beforehand without data. It just bugged us. And sure enough, there I am, the youngest member of the whole team sitting in the front row, and this Russian comes down, and he whispers to the chairman. I thought, oh, my God, he's going to say he found it on 106. He did announce without any data two days later that he had found it.
12:37Nobody said anything because they're waiting to see the proof. Yeah, so this was our little piece of the Cold War, if you will. We've just been hearing all about a renewed push to discover new elements. How do you feel about this getting started again? Excited. And you know what? I still pay close tabs to what they're doing, and I think they're going to make it. I really do. Who knows what use they will have? I mean, it might be amazing. It's great that applications come out, but does that drive you personally? To me, that's the payoff, is where these discoveries can actually find practical applications that are benefiting.
13:19Yeah, but they also tell you how the universe is proceeding along. To me, that's more important. Looking last night at all the photos from the web of the various parts of the universe and realising how little we know about everything there, every little scrap of knowledge that we humans can develop is going to help us in the future. It's the beauty of knowing what's going on to me. Carol captured it, the beauty of knowing what's going on. That sounds an awful lot like researching cosmology. Back at Jacqueline's office, I began to wonder whether it's really just the prospect of practical applications that keep them going.
14:05I mean, if I say no, that's a bad thing. I would love if there are one day applications, but I don't know if that's the case. So what I am driven by is the search for new information and the chance to extend the periodic table and to extend our knowledge into the unknown. You always have to argue why fundamental science is important, but there's also something beautiful and very human, I think, in celebrating discovery. I think as humans we are curious and we are trying to discover more. And our society should continue to support that side of us and support this natural discovery. Jennifer Poor and I are on the same page.
14:51I share this feeling that it's always worth discovering more, pushing beyond the edges of understanding just because they're there. Practical benefits do matter, of course they do, but you can't motivate the why of your work by them. You're listening to The Documentary from the BBC World Service. I'm physicist Andrew Ponson and this is the search for Element 120. Back within the bowels of the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab's cyclotron facility, I'm ready to see where element 120 will actually be produced. So here we have the beam line which is coming from the cyclotron vault. So this is where the beam is continuing to be steered towards our target.
15:36So then do you want to point Jacqueline where the target is? Our target is inside this little box so it's not a very big target. Jen actually has one of our targets. So you can see it's about the size of an old compact disc. So the beam spot will go along these banana-shaped segments on the outside of the target. And then what? And then we try to make a super-heavy element. But how do you know? So that's what these blue magnets are for. Its job is to take those trillions of failures a second and separate them out from that single atom of a super-heavy element that we have made. Okay, so I'm imagining you've made your one atom of element 120.
16:17you've got rid of all of the other annoying atoms that came with it. Then we have to detect it, because we only know that we've made an element after it's gone away. Let's go.
16:33We have lots of different components here. Most of what you're looking at is to control the vacuum of the system. The other components you see are electronics, which is what plugs into our detector, which sits here in this large box. And this is where we actually do the detections to try to see if we've made a super heavy element. What exactly tells you that that's happened? It's actually a little bit funny. We know we made that element after it's already gone. So these things live for very short periods of time. They're going to fly in and hit our detector. And then for 120, we're expecting in a few microseconds, is going to decay away and emit an alpha particle.
17:16An alpha particle is a small particle that's made up of two protons and two neutrons, and we can see that alpha particle. And then its daughter nucleus will also live for a very short period of time, and it will emit an alpha particle, and then the next nucleus will emit an alpha particle. And within a few seconds, we're going to see several high-energy alpha particles emitted in a very specific part of our detector, and this will tell us that there was something there, even if it is just a single atom. What I got from this is that a single atom of element 120 is only going to last for a tiny fraction of a second.
17:53The sheer amount of electric charge makes it hard for it to stay glued together and that's a big part of the reason why we don't naturally find these super heavy elements on Earth. It also means that if the team do create element 120, knowing that it was there, that had ever existed is a challenge in itself. Jennifer and Jacqueline's team are poised to see this mind-blowing work through to a convincing conclusion, and I come away as excited for the future of heavy elements as I am for cosmology. But this kind of work spans generations. As much as it's about building foundations for future scientists, it's also about the past.
18:34And as the Alonzos had mentioned, that past can't be untangled from its darker roots.
18:44It was the first thermonuclear test hydrogen bomb in 1952. This was the first megatons nuclear explosion. It literally blew the island that they were using off the map. If you go onto Google Maps now, you'll find this little blue hole where the island used to be. This is Kit Chapman, author of Super Heavy, a book covering the fraught history of element discovery. I came to him not only to hear the history, but in a hope of getting a deeper understanding of why scientists chase super-heavy elements. He told me just how far they'll go to do that. This mushroom cloud rose up, but the US wanted to know what was inside.
19:24And so they ordered fighter pilots to fly their jets in, and these jets had filters on the wings. They flew through the stem and they gathered up all of the debris. now one of the pilots doing this a guy called jimmy robinson his plane stall the electromagnetic pulse that had happened had completely fried his ability to find home base he had to land in the water and sadly he lost his life but the filters that were recovered from the planes that flew into the mushroom cloud were taken back to the u.s and because of the amount of neutrons flying around in that mushroom cloud we had elements that had never been discovered before and so from that explosion we found the elements fermium and einsteinium, elements 99 and 100.
20:07And if we take this as a sort of illustrative story, why do you think people get involved in this line of research? This is the biggest prize in science. I couldn't name, and I'm sorry to admit this, I couldn't name someone who won the Nobel Prize five years ago. And there are around several hundred people that have won the Nobel Prize in various science fields, but there are only a handful of people who have discovered an element. And here's the thing. If you discover the elements, you get to name it. And that name stays with human history forever, essentially. So these kind of heroics can be driven, in a sense, by some ego.
20:45Can that ego also lead people into darker places? Well, there's certainly a competition that happened during the Cold War between the US and the USSR. There was an active race to discover these new elements, and part of it is a geopolitical battle. If you think about it as this ongoing conflict between, essentially, capitalism and communism, this is science being involved in that. When individuals get deeply committed to this kind of race, presumably they can end up doing things that are less than scientific. There is a very famous case of this, a chap called Viktor Ninov. And he was the rising star of element discovery.
21:26And during the 1990s, he was pioneering using computing to discover new elements and being able to detect them. He moved over to Berkeley. He was going to run their team. He had this program which was absolutely fantastic for detecting new elements. It pinged. They had three lovely, beautiful atoms discovered of this new element, 118. They thought they had discovered an element. And then nobody could repeat the experiment. It became very obvious that someone had been going in and editing the computer data. Someone had actually been adding in lines of code. And the login was Viktor Ninov's. This was a huge scandal.
22:03This was the fall of Berkeley, which had originated a whole field of synthetic element discovery. It just ended the party. The geopolitics of this are still fascinating. I mean, for a while after the end of the Cold War, Russia and the US were actually directly collaborating on the search for new elements, weren't they? But presumably that's now fallen apart. It has, and it's really unfortunate. So it began in the start of the 1990s and continued in the 2000s. Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in America was working with the Joint Institute for Nuclear Research in Russia. And these were the two sides that had been pitted against each other in the Cold War.
22:43And it worked. but of course with geopolitical changes with the war in ukraine in particular things have changed and of course that means that things have moved in america towards berkeley where they have this ability to create 120 and they're now all working together as a us combined team and berkeley has a fantastic reputation they are the home of element discovery they are on the periodic table right down the bottom there you can see berkeley and california but remember berkeley's coming back from taking a big hit with Viktor Ninov. So they want that back. So the reason new elements get discovered is, yes, partly because of that human drive to understand nature, but that's just the start.
23:24The funding for all this is deeply interwoven with geopolitics, in part because of the connection with weaponry and in part because of a more abstract sense of national pride. I heard that from Carol and Jose Alonso, and now I've had it confirmed by Kit. Pride comes with pressure, pressure which presumably led Viktor Ninov to fabricate evidence for element 118. That one exception aside, Berkeley scientists are credited with legitimately discovering 14 new elements. And I wondered whether Jennifer Poor and Jacqueline Gates feel the weight of the legacy. I think there's definitely a sense of pride, and it's surreal, honestly, to be following in the footsteps of Seaborg.
24:06you know we haven't discovered an element in the United States since 1974 so there's been quite a dry spell and so to continue in that legacy would be amazing. I mean to be quite clear we would be happy if anyone in the community or anyone out there was able to discover a new element. We would just be even happier if it was us. Trying to understand why we create new elements has reminded me that motivations for scientific research, as for any human endeavour, are complex and hard to untangle. The desire to push scientific boundaries, the hope for future applications, the personal, institutional, even nationalistic pride, the politics.
24:49But there is at least an underlying simplicity to asking, what is the universe made from? Like all the best science questions. It can be posed by a child, but we still have only a partial answer. A little bit of alchemy going on in the Californian East Bay Hills has as good a chance as any to unlock profound new insights, the sort of insights that cement a scientific legacy. That's perhaps at the back of any researcher's mind. So what would it mean personally to Jacqueline and Jennifer if they go down in history as discovering Element 120. I mean, there are so few people in history who can say that they have been involved in discovering an element.
25:33And to add my name to that list and to be able to do that here at Berkeley, the institution where I learned how to do all of this research, it would be a great pleasure to be able to bring that work back to Berkeley. I honestly can't even wrap my brain around what that would feel like, but it would definitely be a magical experience. And it's such a well-known thing. It would be so public and a discovery that we can give to everybody and say, look, we've learned this new piece of information. We've added it to the periodic table. It's going to be hanging in every classroom. When my children learn chemistry, they're going to learn about the cool discovery of Element 120 for generations to come.
26:20You've been listening to The Documentary from the BBC World Service presented by me, Andrew Ponson, and produced by Ella Hubber.
From the publisher
What does it take to make something which has never existed on Earth before? The search for element 120 on the periodic table has begun at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California. Cosmologist Andrew Pontzen, who is used to studying the processes of creation, visits the 88-inch Cyclotron facility at Berkeley, where the next new element may be created very soon. To uncover what motivates scientists to pursue something that is possibly only produced in the violent explosions of stars he speaks with the scientists trying it now, the scientists who last made an element at Berkeley 50 years ago, and a historian of the fraught history of element discovery. The answer is not as straight forward as he suspected.




