In short
The Documentary Podcast: Episode Summary
Episode Title
Persian Poetry and Politics
Podcast Description The Documentary Podcast showcases the voices at the heart of global stories, diving into the minds of creative individuals and exploring the impact of news stories on people's lives. Each episode goes beyond headlines to uncover hidden truths across various topics.
Episode Overview In this episode, we delve into the intricate relationship between Persian poetry and politics, examining how poetry serves as a tool for leaders in Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan to build legitimacy and shape political narratives amidst the complexities of national identity.
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Key Themes and Discussions
The Role of Poetry in Persian Culture
- Cultural Significance: Poetry is deeply woven into the cultural fabric of Persian-speaking nations, often used in major life events and celebrations.
- Symbol of Identity: Persian poetry is not only valued for its beauty but also serves as a marker of education and status among politicians and the elite.
Poetry as a Political Tool
- Legitimacy and Connection: Politicians use poetry to connect with the populace and enhance their legitimacy. Examples include:
- President Emomali Rahmon of Tajikistan: Known to recite poetry during public speeches to engage with citizens.
- Iranian Politicians: Rely on poetry to signal their cultural credentials and educate their audience subtly.
Tensions Between Islamic Ideology and Persian Identity
- Contradictions: Persian poetry often embodies themes of love and intoxication that conflict with the Islamic Republic's values.
- Historical Context: The Islamic revolution in 1979 temporarily marginalized poetry's role, but leaders have since utilized it selectively to regain popular appeal.
Language and Identity
- Dialect Variations: Persian is known by different names (Farsi, Dari, Tajiki) in various regions, highlighting the historical and political divisions while maintaining mutual intelligibility.
- Cultural Identity vs. Political Identity: Regional differences influence how poetry is perceived and utilized by leaders to foster national identity and solidarity.
Modern Political Usage of Poetry
- Contemporary Leaders: Current Iranian leadership, including Ayatollah Khamenei, hosts poetry nights, drawing parallels to historical practices of rulers who used poetry to connect with their subjects.
- Criticism and Resistance: Despite its use for state propaganda, poetry remains a vehicle for the opposition and dissent, often reflecting societal issues and striving for freedom against theocratic governance.
The Impact of Geopolitical Events
- Recent Conflicts: The episode references the 12-day war involving Israel and Iran, which has led to a resurgence in emphasis on Persian cultural heritage as a means to unify the populace against perceived external threats.
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Conclusion This episode underscores the dual nature of Persian poetry as both a tool of political power and a medium for cultural expression. It reflects the ongoing struggle between the ideals of Persian identity and the realities of theocratic governance in contemporary Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan.
Key Takeaways
- Persian poetry is integral to cultural identity and political rhetoric in Persian-speaking nations.
- The relationship between poetry and politics reveals deeper societal tensions and the complexities of national identity.
- Modern political leaders utilize poetry to navigate legitimacy while facing resistance from the populace, who also harness poetry for dissent.
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Episode Contributors
- Parneon Sadegi - Iran analyst
- Majid Nusrat - Afghan representative
- Maruvjohn Ismatov - Central Asian representative
- Host: Krassi Ivanova-Twig
Additional Notes
- The episode provides insights into how poetry transcends mere artistic expression, acting as a societal glue that connects individuals to their historical roots and fosters community.
- Listeners are encouraged to further explore the dynamics of poetry in shaping political discourse and identity in the Persian-speaking world.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Persian Language: A Unifying Yet Divisive Force
3:16 to 4:40
Exploring the complexities of the Persian language and its dialects across Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan.
“I'm Krassi Ivanova-Twig, and this is the Global Jigsaw from BBC Monitoring, where we look at the world through the lens of its media, exploring the narratives, the propaganda, and the disinformation.”
Cultural Influences and Linguistic Diversity
4:40 to 8:16
Discussion on how regional influences shape the Persian language and its dialects.
“People from Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Iran can easily understand each other.”
The Importance of Persian Poetry in Identity Formation
8:16 to 11:10
Understanding how Persian poetry serves as a cultural anchor and a means of expressing identity.
“For Afghans, Iran's Persian sounds more melodic and musical, while Tajikistan accent sounds more robust and rugged, perhaps due to influences from Russian stress patterns.”
The Political Dimensions of Persian Poetry
11:10 to 14:00
Examining how poetry reflects and shapes national identity and political narratives in the Persian-speaking world.
“People across different countries reach for the same lyrical texts in search of wisdom and inspiration.”
The Origins of Persian Poetry
14:00 to 14:48
Explore the geographical and cultural roots of Persian poetry.
“And the name of those places are mostly in today's Afghanistan and Tajikistan rather than Iran.”
Poetry's Cultural Significance
14:48 to 16:04
Learn how poetry serves as a social glue and cultural identity for Persian speakers.
“Beyond its beauty and lyricism, poetry has a real purpose.”
Themes in Persian Poetry
16:04 to 17:28
Discover the major themes and metaphors used in Persian poetry.
“So that's why it's easy even for ordinary people to just listen and keep it in mind and recite it later.”
Poetry in Iranian Culture
17:28 to 18:58
Understand how poetry is woven into the fabric of Iranian life and celebrations.
“But at the same time, tell us to avoid all these.”
Political Use of Poetry
19:33 to 22:29
Explore how poetry is employed by politicians to connect with the populace.
“The best conversations from across the BBC.”
Poetry as a Check on Power
22:29 to 25:10
Learn about the historical role of poetry as a critique of political power.
“Similarly to the way British audiences might think about classics, which is knowing Greek and Latin, but it is like have it woven into the way you speak.”
Show all 15 chapters
Khomeini's Surprising Literary Legacy
25:10 to 28:00
Discover the unexpected poetic side of Ayatollah Khomeini.
“The idea that a cleric should be in charge of Iran because of the way that he knows about guidance of God and you can say that that was very much like an innovation in Shia Islam.”
Persian Poetry's Role in Iranian Politics
28:00 to 31:09
Explore how Persian poetry influences political narratives and identity in Iran.
“People who were imprisoned with him, because he was in prison under the Shah before the revolution, they say that he was very much interested in poetry.”
The Impact of the 12-Day War
31:09 to 35:14
Understand the shift in cultural messaging in Iran post-12-day war.
“What we are seeing currently is more emphasis on the Persian side, especially since the 12-day war.”
Taliban's Influence on Persian Culture
35:14 to 36:54
Learn how the Taliban's policies affect Persian cultural expression and poetry.
“The execution numbers this year in Iran have increased, even compared to last year where it was incredibly high.”
Criticism Through Poetry in Iran
36:54 to 38:46
Discover how poetry serves as a medium for criticizing the Iranian government.
“And Roman, obviously, they are not allowed to speak outside, let alone just reciting a poem.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
0:30Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The Interview. The best conversations from across the BBC. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. With the people shaping our world. You're making decisions that will have long-term consequences for the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Wind power in the United States has been subsidised for 33 years. Solar for 25 years. That's enough! The interview from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.
1:16If you ever find yourself at a wedding in the Persian-speaking world, prepare for a treat. Not a witty best man speech, but a poetry recital.
1:31It's a tradition for people to use poems during their speeches, whether it's an official ceremony or wedding or any kind of gathering. They try to recite a poem. Everywhere you look in Iran, there's a bit of celebration of Persian poetry. It's incredibly ubiquitous in the culture in general, woven into any major life events. This is one of the beauty of Persian language because of the philosophical meanings or wisdom that are included in this poetry. Poetry sits on the pedestal of Persian identity. Politicians too lean on to it as a means of connecting with their tribe. The lyricism of it is really important for signalling that you're educated and you're from the elite and that is how a lot of Iranian politicians signal that they have the correct credentials.
2:30But as a container of national identity, poetry can sometimes be at odds with the dominant ideology of the day. There's always this kind of contradiction at the heart of the Islamic Republic and also the Iranian population in general because there are parts of Islam and parts of Persian identity that sometimes clash. In this episode, we talk Persian language and poetry. to understand the tensions between different facets of Persian identity. We explore how politicians in today's Persian-speaking world toggle between them as they try to build legitimacy, shape political narratives and reinforce power.
3:15Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. I'm Krassi Ivanova-Twig, and this is the Global Jigsaw from BBC Monitoring, where we look at the world through the lens of its media, exploring the narratives, the propaganda, and the disinformation. Radio Tehran. We were not involved in the territory of Ukraine. Western countries are not the international community. That era has finished.
3:49We'll start with a pub quiz question. What do Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan have in common? We have representatives of those three countries to tell us. Parnion Sadegi is from our Iran team. Majid Nusrat in the Colors of Afghanistan. And Marov John Ismatov is representing Central Asia. They all speak the same language, but they have different names for it. Maruf John first. Tajiki, Dari and Farsi are dialects of the same language. The Persian language has these three names for geographical and political reasons. The three dialects have some minor differences in accent, vocabulary and script, as well as loanwords.
4:39But the dialects are generally mutually intelligible. People from Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Iran can easily understand each other. Farsi is the name used in Iran, Dari is the name used in Afghanistan and Tajik is the name used in Central Asia. This language is spoken across a vast region, So there are many differences in how it has developed. Barneyon is our Iran analyst. I think Dari is a slightly more pure version of Persian, in the sense that the modern version of Persian is very much mixed in with Arabic and mixed in with other languages. There is a kind of idea that the Persian that spoken in Iran is better in some ways.
5:29But again, I think that that is just based on kind of the elitism that exists. The Afghans have something to say about this, and here comes our third expert, Majid. Modern Persian language took mostly shape in eastern parts of Iran, Afghanistan and Central Asia, because they promoted Persian language against Arabic. And over time, this spread to western Iran. Farsi or Persian is historically the dominant language in Afghanistan, on the language of the government, the language of the administration, the language of the trade. At least half of the population speak Persian at home, so it makes it the language of majority.
6:15The word Persian came from Greek. Persian, in fact, translation of Farsi. But in Afghanistan, the language is officially called as Dari. The use of Dari as an alternative name for Farsi started about 60 years ago, when royal families were just politically dominant from the south and ruling elite. They wanted to create a Pashtun identity for Afghanistan, showing that Afghan identity is separate from Iran. Pashtuns make up about 40 % of the population. Tajiks, around 30%. And Uzbeks and Turkmen, maybe around 10%. Hazaras, more or less 10-15%. And this is the estimate they use Persian because it's a language of Franco.
7:06Over in Central Asia, there was a similar push to form a separate identity through language. Persian ended up using a script that was originally created for a Slavonic language, which happens to be my mother tongue, Bulgarian. Cyrillic script is used for Tajik, while Arabic is used for Dari and Farsi. Actually, the Cyrillic script was introduced by the Soviets to form a new identity. These dialects also incorporate long words from different languages, for example, Tajiki from Russian, Dari from English and Farsi from French. How big is the Russian influence on the Tajik language? It is noticeable there are lots of long words in spoken language.
7:56Almost in every sentence you hear one or two Russian words. For example, they don't say in Tajik, ordi or simple. They say, poster. They're speaking Tajik, but they use Russian words. Under local linguistic influences, each version of the language has grown into its own rhythm. For Afghans, Iran's Persian sounds more melodic and musical, while Tajikistan accent sounds more robust and rugged, perhaps due to influences from Russian stress patterns. Persian and Afghanistan more or less influenced by Sanskrit languages from the Indian subcontinent, while Iranian Farsi is more or less influenced by Turkish language.
8:45Iran itself is a linguistic kaleidoscope. And because language is at the heart of identity, there's been a long-running effort to marginalise minority languages and elevate Persian. It's the only official state language. There are lots of regional languages. Azeri in the northwest, and there's Kurdish languages. And then in the southeast near Pakistan, Afghanistan, you have Sistan Baluchistan. They have their own language, Baluch. And then there's Arabic speakers around the Persian Gulf right at the south. Iran, both under Pahlavis and later under Islamic Republic, have been very sensitive to the idea of separatism, have been trying to stop that from happening.
9:28Some estimates is that up to 50 % of the countries speak a second language that is different from Persian. President Masvid Pazeshkian speaks Azeri, and during his campaign he did appeal to that background and wanted to get the votes from that region.
9:47You can interpret this in a way of saying that Azeri is a less threatening language to the establishment than Kurdish would be. But having said that, I think there's a little bit of change happening in Iran and wanting to get those minorities on board. Because again, the Iranian government is trying to unify people post the Israel war, especially. There's a similar picture in Tajikistan. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Tajik remained the sole official language, and it is also spoken in other Central Asian countries. Tajik is used in government, education, media and public life. It serves as a symbol of national identity.
10:31In Uzbekistan, Tajik is recognized as a minority language, but does not have the same official status as Uzbek, which is the sole state language. In Uzbekistan's regions with significant Tajik populations, there are some schools that teach in Tajik. However, access to education in Tajik is limited compared to Uzbek language education, which is predominant throughout the country. Despite the regional linguistic variations, one thing that seems universal across the Persian-speaking world is the love for poetry. People across different countries reach for the same lyrical texts in search of wisdom and inspiration.
11:18You have the Book of Kings written by Ferdowsi. It's called Shahna Meh in Farsi. And it starts from the creation of humanity up until the end of the Sassanian Empire and the conquest of Rome by Arabs. Because of the way that it's woven into the culture, people are really familiar with the language of it, used by different governments in different ways.
11:45My dad brought me this kid's version of Shah Nama, and he would read it to me at night. It was about the seven labors of Rostam, and he was like this Herculean figure.
12:05In the poem, the king is in Herat. His capital is in Bukhara. So what you have is this huge landscape of Persian poetry being connected to different parts. For a bit of Persian geography, Herat is in today's Afghanistan and Bukhara is part of modern Uzbekistan. And then my name, Paranian, when Farsi literature teachers would hear it, they would recite this very famous poem by Rudaki, which is known as the father of Persian poetry. It's a poem about King who went to campaign and his advisors wanted him to come back home. And the poet, Rudaki, writes about how good home is. And Paranion features in it.
12:49And Paranion translates like a soft, velvety material in Farsi. So it's about you go home and everything feels soft and remember how good home is. Parnion and the meaning of her name touches on an important issue for all Persian speakers, connection to the roots. Shifting borders and geopolitics have led to the formation of distinctive identities, all claiming the bloodline of the greats of Persian poetry. Many people in Afghanistan often take offence when Iranians describe all classical Persian poets including figures such as Rumi, Nasser Khisrau and Jami, who were born in Afghanistan as Iranian poets rather than poets of the wider Persian world.
13:37And Firdausi himself is the father of Persian language and he lived around a thousand years ago. He presented his book, Shah Nama, at the royal court of Ghaznaweed in today's Afghanistan.
14:06And the name of those places are mostly in today's Afghanistan and Tajikistan rather than Iran. So people say, look, it is us that have given rise to the language. Why Iranians just monopolising everything? Under different dynasties, those poets are claimed by different parts. For example, Rumi is claimed by both Iranians and Turkish speakers because he was in what is now currently modern Turkey. So we have national identity around these poets and poems who don't really fit within that mould because these borders are quite new and the mythologies that are within those poems belong to a huge, vast population.
14:51Beyond its beauty and lyricism, poetry has a real purpose. It works like social glue. Poetry holds a significant place in the day-to-day life of Persian speakers in Central Asia. Poetry is a vital part of the cultural identity. It connects them to the historical roots and the broader Persian literary tradition. It is common for people to recite poetry during social gatherings, weddings and religious ceremonies. In Persian, there is a politician speaking. They recite a nice poem relevant to the topic to just make the event a bit lively and tasty. To be knowledgeable about Persian poetry shows also someone's educated background.
15:41That's why a lot of people try to also include some Persian poetry in their speeches. Poetry has another important function for the elites and the common people. It lives in an oral tradition belonging to everyone, including those who lack formal education. Because of the philosophical meanings or wisdom in this poetry, it makes them easier to remember. So that's why it's easy even for ordinary people to just listen and keep it in mind and recite it later. My maternal auntie is eight years old. A woman has not been to school for a single day, but still recites Persian poetry every five minutes during the conversation.
16:28I myself like reading poems and follow many modern poets on social media. Some of them very popular. And also their books were even published in Iran. They're also popular there. It's time for some poetry reading. Let me read a verse from Mirza Tursunzoda.
17:02It was a famous story during the Soviet times. The poem was about friendship. He says, value kind friends. It's difficult to live in this world without friends. One of the biggest poems that I love comes from Nasser Khisrau, who lived around 800 years ago. And he's asking lots of questions from God, saying, look, you have created Satan, lust, and so many other bad temptation or good temptation. But at the same time, tell us to avoid all these. So how could I resist? He said, you have created these Bulgarian beauties. But at the same time, you tell us, avoid them. So how could I do that? In Persian poetry, they use Bulgarian or Turks as a metaphor for beauty.
17:52Really? Yes. Mostly woman beauty, but also some nature beauty, whatever. So it's a kind of a metaphor. Wow. This poetry challenges religious belief that normally is full of contradiction and paradoxes. As a Bulgarian, I was curious to discover that our fame traveled so far. Moving west to Iran, Parneon tells us life wouldn't be the same without poetry. It's incredibly ubiquitous in the culture in general. It's woven into any major life events. You can see it in Iranian New Year, which is Nowruz, the beginning of spring. And people celebrate spring setting up a table and put different books on it.
18:35And some families would put the Koran in and some might put the Hafez in. They want to incorporate poetry into that.
18:45The way the Persian corpus at Vobin and you kind of see like small couplets having been written on top. Everywhere you look in Iran, there's a bit of celebration of Persian poetry because it's been such a huge tradition and such a huge part of people's life. Is the US conceding the green energy race to China? When the Trump administration said it was pulling out of the Paris Agreement for a second time, it seemed like a wholesale withdrawal from the climate change question. All the while, China's becoming a global powerhouse of green technology. What could happen in the long run if the US continues to cede the floor to China on clean energy?
19:26Listen to The Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. The Interview. The best conversations from across the BBC. Today we are spending trivians on war and peanuts on peace. with the people shaping our world. You're making decisions that will have long-term consequences for the levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Wind power in the United States has been subsidised for 33 years. Solar for 25 years, that's enough! The interview from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. America is changing. And so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval.
20:11It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
20:35you're listening to the documentary from the bbc world service as a form of artistic expression helping unite the nation poetry is a powerful tool in the hands of politicians president rahman usually delivers speeches in tajig and sometimes uses poetry
21:04On Flag Day, President Rahman recited a poem from Firdausi's Shahna Me. I observed him frequently reciting poems by Rudaki, who is widely recognized as the founder of classical Persian literature. President Emomali Rahmon, who was a Soviet-era bureaucrat, is such a fan of the Book of Kings that he's said to have ordered it for every Tajik household.
21:38You know, it's a tradition for people to use poems during their speeches. Through this, maybe they want to gain people's affection to them.
21:55When visiting regions, President Rahmon is met by children or young people reciting poems praising him. People are also encouraged to compose poems for president. In every visit, every local official tries to present a new, better poem devoted to the president. It's a kind of competition. You can see why knowledge of poetry is a must for a Persian-speaking politician. It provides an important connection with the people, and it shows the right level of education and legitimacy. Similarly to the way British audiences might think about classics, which is knowing Greek and Latin, but it is like have it woven into the way you speak.
22:46The lyricism of it is really important for signaling that you're educated. A lot of Iranian politicians went to seminary school and that is how they signal that they have the correct credentials to say, not only did I go to seminary school, but also I have this Persian poetry background. It's one thing you can't afford to get wrong if you're a politician, something former Afghan President Ashraf Ghani found out the hard way. President Ashraf Ghani recited a Persian poem from Rodeke in Tajikistan. He misread it without knowing that he misread it, but everyone knew that he made a mistake, meaning that he is probably not that good in Persian poetry.
23:36This happened in March 2021, and during reciting a poem by Rudaki, he made mistakes, and this sparked a reaction on social media, criticising him. They mocked him mostly because they thought this guy is exaggerating about his skills, about his education, but often he makes simple mistakes. You are listening to The Global Jigsaw from BBC Monitoring. Beyond lending politicians' credibility, poetry has at times taken on another important mantle to act as checks and balances for those in charge. The idea that they were irresponsible kings who would abandon their duties and poets were an important part of bringing them back to their duties and giving advice.
24:36Poets were given money by the king and they were kept as part of the court. These poets, even back in the 13th century, 14th century, they were writing it as a way to criticise the way they saw society and a lot of the time the way they saw religious people. There has always been a continuation of that. With the 1979 revolution, religion became the dominant force in Iran. The theocratic rulers were aiming for absolute power. Knowledge of poetry wasn't high on their agenda. The founder of the Islamic revolution, Imam Khomeini, was obviously very strict.
25:16The idea that a cleric should be in charge of Iran because of the way that he knows about guidance of God and you can say that that was very much like an innovation in Shia Islam. The world came to know Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini as an austere Puritan. But after his death, a surprising side of him came to light. After he died, his son sent a poem to a newspaper by him to get published. Whether or not he wrote actually these poems. There's actually not a lot of reason to believe that it would be fake, other than the fact that he doesn't have the correct persona for a poet. And the poems on a literary level, they are very much celebrated.
25:59They are good. What are they about? They are in the tradition of Hafiz and Rumi. On the face of it, they have a lot of imagery which is to do with a lover's hair or wine or being drunk in love.
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26:31It's a bit hard to know which one of these are literal and which one are about God. But with Khomeini, you would say he was much more interested in the God side of it. When he talks about the lover or the wine, he's talking about a connection with God and kind of the ways you get there. That is quite a stretch, isn't it? it? Yeah, in the sense that like any other poem, you're using the metaphors and imageries that people are connected to more on a day to day basis. Well, we thought it would be useful at this point to offer you a translation for the poem by Khomeini. Judge for yourself. I have become imprisoned, oh beloved, by the mole on your lip.
27:15I saw your ailing eyes and became ill through love. Open the door of the tavern and let us go there day and night, for I am sick and tired of the mosque and seminary. Persian poetry is full of wine, but wine does not necessarily mean alcohol. So it's a metaphor for joy, love for life. Everyone can connect to a more earthly love and you bring that obsession that you have with someone and say, remember how you felt about that person. This is how I feel about God. This is how much I want to be close to God. Was it controversial when the poem was published and when it became clear that, oh, there was another side to him?
27:58It was quite controversial. People who were imprisoned with him, because he was in prison under the Shah before the revolution, they say that he was very much interested in poetry. He knew a lot of poetry by heart. So you can see that how he would have wanted to have that legacy. You have the establishment version of him, which is he paved the way for the revolution. He unified all these different factions of society. And you also have the sanctified version of him. There's a huge mausoleum near Tehran where people go for pilgrimage, even though you can make many claims that he did wrong things.
28:33Do you hear any criticism in the media of these top figures? The way that the state controls the media, TV channels and radios, information is very much monitored. The Supreme Leader, both Khomeini and Khamenei, They're seen as these holy figures. The current top theologian politician Ali Khamenei also seems to have an affinity for poetry. The Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei currently hosts a lot of poetry nights, much like the rulers for hundreds of years before him. He has the power to give voice to poets, and he does this by inviting them over. They recite poetry. He even sometimes corrects them.
29:21In his own speeches, he includes some poetry sometimes as a way of having that lyricism and having that meaning that people connect to in a better way.
29:39Obviously, he is giving deference to how important it is for Iranians and he wants to be part of that as well. Iran's theocratic leader too seems keen to dress his vision in poetry, as so many rulers before him, to secure popular appeal. But the Persian poetic tradition represents values that stray from the ideas of the theocratic leadership. Rumi or Molana in Farsi and Hafiz Ashirazi, 14th century poets, really had a very in-depth knowledge of the Quran. They were very inspired by it, but they also wanted something else, which was this personal connection with God and the mystic Sufi element of it.
30:20Wanting to go beyond the jurisprudence of Islam. It's about being able to connect to God in a more straightforward and personal way. And that has been in conflict with clerical Islam in Iran. The Islamic Republic has always had a bit of tension between wanting to emphasize the Islamic side of Iran and the Persian side. And if you're very anti-establishment, you really want to emphasize the Persian part. And if you're really pro-establishment, you want to emphasize more the Islamic side. Just kind of back and forth between Persian culture and Islamic culture comes and goes. But right now, something interesting is happening.
31:00There are signs of a pull towards the Persian cultural heritage in the messaging coming from the leaders in Tehran. And the timing is important. What we are seeing currently is more emphasis on the Persian side, especially since the 12-day war. And that's really interesting in terms of seeing how the culture changes, because the mythology of these figures, the mythology of the figures in Shah Na 'ameh, the Book of Kings, to say heroic acts that happened during the 12-day war are similar to these acts that happened in Shah Na 'ameh. The 12-day war Parneon refers to happened in June, when Israel and the US bombed Iran's nuclear facilities.
31:42The conflict was a major setback for Iran. How is the emphasis on the Persian side of the Iranian identity showing itself in the aftermath of this war? We have seen different drawings of Rostam, who's this Herculean figure, in massive billboards in Tehran, where the dragon is depicted with an Israeli flag on it. or with an American flag on it. So you can see that they are trying to have this more Persian imagery within the official dialogue. When the government is trying to appeal to Shah Namib and that sort of imagery, you can see that they want to have a more unified populace because of the war, and they see that as an opportunity to bring people together.
32:28So there's a bit of push and pull that has happened within the establishment. Them messaging around Persian poetry, is for a domestic audience. Even though there's no democracy, there's clearly some need for approval, for legitimacy. The people of Iran are not averse to showing their disapproval by taking to the streets. They too have reached for the poetic mythology to make points of their own, and they know their villains as well as their heroes. Persian poetry is so important to Iranians that you want to have that in your back pocket, but it used to be more anti-establishment since these protests have began back in 2009 and then again since 2018.
33:10You would have had Supreme Leader Ali Khamele be seen as this villain between Shah Namah, Zahak.
33:37He is this villainous figure who has snakes on his shoulders and every day he requires the brains of two young men, which is very much an image of wanting to kill the youth and wanting to destroy that portion of the population that you don't agree with. And that imagery used to not belong to the government. And I think to some extent it still doesn't. but they are trying to tap into that imagery. Your hardcore supporters, as an estimate, are like 20 % of the population, and you absolutely do not want to forcibly keep the 80 % in check because that takes so much resources. You want a little bit of a buy-in.
34:18Yes, because the government is very much aware that there are huge swaths of the population who don't agree with it. We have had wave after wave of very widespread protests in Iran, and the government has suppressed it with a lot of violence, lots of people going to prison, getting tortured, etc. But it's very much an awareness between the political culture in Iran that lots of people, if they could vote tomorrow, they would vote to not have the Islamic Republic. So wanting to appeal to that portion of the population, I think, has become very important because what we saw during the 12-day war was Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel wanting to appeal to that portion of the population and saying, I think you should rise up, this is your moment.
35:01While the authorities in Tehran are trying to draw validation from Shah Nameh's heroes, they're also violently cracking down on the population.
35:14The execution numbers this year in Iran have increased, even compared to last year where it was incredibly high. One of the worst years in 15 years. and we think it's because the toll of the war with Israel has been used as a way of hacking down on any sort of dissent and any sort of like minority rights, anyone you want to arrest. And there's been this huge upsurge of repression and we see that reflected in execution numbers. UN human rights experts have said that they are appalled by a dramatic escalation in the number of executions with more than 1 ,000 people killed during the first nine months.
35:55of 2025. While the Iranian leaders are currently trying to gain legitimacy through the Persian identity and poetry, the leaders of Afghanistan have turned their back on anything that is not strictly Islamic. In August, the Taliban banned romantic poetry, and that's just the latest addition to a long list of bans. Taliban speeches are full of Islamic undertones, contrary to past speeches by politicians who are just mixed with wisdom and poetry and whatever. Nowadays, the Taliban speeches are full of verses from the Holy Quran. The Taliban has impacted everything. They have disbanded lots of books that promote Persian culture, books that promote poetry that contains like wine, love.
36:49And Persian poetry is full of this wine and love. So they have banned most of these. And Roman, obviously, they are not allowed to speak outside, let alone just reciting a poem. As an expression of values, poetry's potential to disrupt is well recognised in Iran too. Wanting to criticise the government is a huge thing, and that is the main thing that people want to do if they are expressing themselves artistically, because that is what a lot of people are connecting to. There's a lot of hardship in Iran, and any sort of criticism of the army, the government, and the religion, wanting to be anti-religion, wanting to believe that you should have certain freedoms and rights that are not enshrined in a religion, is very much still a crackdown on.
37:35It's important to note that you would have to be quite popular for the government to want to enforce these things sometimes. And although poetry, as we established, is used in Iran for enchanting the domestic audience, the temptation to quote it on the international arena is sometimes too big to resist. In May, in a speech, President Trump criticized the Iranian government, saying that they haven't been able to provide for their people, they haven't been able to deal with the corruption or the cost of living, etc. The government spokesperson, Fatima Mohajir, and he was asked about this.
38:14And she kind of did give a poem by Hafiz and the poem was, listen, fly, the phoenix's flight path is not your air, which is kind of stay in your own lane. It's very scathing without saying something scathing because if you're ambiguous, you can be wrong. In other words, strategic ambiguity, something we discussed in our recent episode about why China gets lost in translation.
38:46This is the documentary from the BBC World Service. Many thanks to our contributors, Parneon Sadegi, Majid Nusrat and Maruvjohn Ismatov for explaining the potency of Persian poetry in shaping the political message. Thank you for listening from our sound engineer, Martin Appleby, and the Global Jigsaw Production team, Barry Sadeed, Krista Shattori, and me, Krasi Ivanova Tweak.
39:32It seemed like a wholesale withdrawal from the climate change question. All the while, China's becoming a global powerhouse of green technology. What could happen in the long run if the US continues to cede the floor to China on clean energy? Listen to The Global Story on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
From the publisher
How poetry is used by Persian-speaking leaders to build legitimacy and shape the political narrative. Across Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan, millions share a language — and passion for poetry. But with its abundance of lovers and wine, Persian poetry sits uneasily with Iran’s theocratic leaders. We explore their complicated relationship with this facet of Persian identity and how they occasionally turn to verse to secure popular appeal.




