Raiders of the lost art

11:53Sandra Kanth:Antiquities are a small but important part of the New York art world. But what defines an antiquity?

12:00Matthew Bogdanos:Most countries have legal apparatus to define antiquities, and generally it's anything more than 100 years. Some countries it's more than 500 years. But generally, I think the best definition is you know it when you see it.

12:16Sandra Kanth:It's very old.

12:18Matthew Bogdanos:It's very old, and it represents a culture.

12:23Sandra Kanth:And it's that premise which underpins Matthew Bogdanus' passion for this work, because he strongly believes that history has shown us cultural vandalism is often a harbinger of much worse to come.

12:36Matthew Bogdanos:We have seen time and time again over millennia that when you attack a people's culture, you are in effect attacking their identity. Destruction of cultural heritage always comes first. and then you attack the people. Look at the former Yugoslavia. I was in Kosovo. You name the side. They attacked the cultural heritage. They blew up churches and temples, bridges, because they recognized how important cultural heritage is to the identity and the unity of a people.

13:12Hello.

13:13Sandra Kanth:Hello, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well. Oh my gosh, what a beautiful apartment this is. Thank you. Uptown from the offices of the ATU is the home of one of those art experts who's worked with Matthew Bogdanos and his team. It's one of those New York City apartments which comes with its own history. My mother bought it.

13:33Matthew Bogdanos:She was the illegal subtenant of an illegal tenant in a commercial space in the 70s. It used to be a factory to make leotards. So when we moved in, I kept finding needles from the sewing machines working their way up from between the floors.

13:47Sandra Kanth:You didn't step on any of my home? No, fortunately. This is the home of Erin Thompson, who has a job with a very specific title. I'm a professor of art crime at the City University of New York. I'm the only one in America, as far as I can tell. Professor Thompson has combined her qualifications as a lawyer with a PhD in art history.

14:07Matthew Bogdanos:I study all sorts of overlaps between art and crime, from forgery to art made by the incarcerated to fraud on the antiquities market. Humans have always made art, and we must have started to steal it pretty soon after we started to make it. It's valuable. It's beautiful. People want it. So you can either sell it legally or you can snatch it and then make much more money illegally.

14:35Sandra Kanth:Stealing the treasures of a culture's history is a crime taking place in many corners of the world. Though it's hard to know exact figures because illicit markets are, by their very nature, hard to measure.

14:46Matthew Bogdanos:But there are some clear signs that it is a huge problem. So, for example, during the Syrian conflict, we were monitoring archaeological sites using satellite photography. And you can see a pristine archaeological site, an ancient city within weeks is covered with looter's holes. It looks like the surface of the moon. People going in, destroying an entire settlement, destroying our knowledge of the past to seek things for the market. Maybe they find a few pieces. Maybe they find a masterwork. Who knows? but the promise of making a lot of money by selling these things to wealthy foreign collectors leads to incalculable destruction.

15:32Sandra Kanth:And once historical pieces go missing, they're incredibly difficult to trace.

15:37Matthew Bogdanos:Italy doesn't know when somebody digs up a tomb and sneaks something out of the country, how's it supposed to reclaim it? Or letters and manuscripts like the Keats letters. It's really very difficult to keep track of every single piece of paper in an archive. Much easier to know when the Mona Lisa goes missing, for example. You make a ton of money if you are able to transform the freshly looted artifacts outfitted with a fake provenance or just find buyers who won't ask a lot of questions.

16:10Sandra Kanth:Provenance is the traceable history of an object, such as where it was found, who's owned it, and where and when it was bought and sold in the past.

16:18Matthew Bogdanos:The problem is, I don't know, something like 90 % of the artifacts on the market don't have a long provenance history. They'll be sold with records indicating where they've been for the last 10 years. That doesn't mean they weren't looted because we've caught dealers lying. We've caught them faking that provenance. So the dealers are going to say, well, if we don't have any information, that doesn't mean it's illegal. And I'm going to say if we don't have any information, that's really not a good sign.

16:48Sandra Kanth:This is the documentary from the BBC World Service.

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18:56Sandra Kanth:I'm Sandra Canthal, this week on Assignment in New York. Since 2012, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office has seized more than 6 ,000 objects from public institutions, businesses and private homes in order to return them to their countries of origin. According to Matthew Bogdanos, all search warrants and turnover orders must be signed and approved by a judge. But there have been some cases he's worked on which were more glaring than others.

19:27Matthew Bogdanos:For example, an extraordinary antiquity comes on the market for the first time. It fetches$4 million at auction in Paris, never previously photographed. Wait, what? You have to be a career law enforcement officer to know that there's something wrong with that picture.

19:48Sandra Kanth:And that's a picture you can check out for yourself. He's describing an event which came to light at the 2018 Met Gala, one of the most high-profile events of the fashion world that takes place at New York's Metropolitan Museum of Art. In 2017, the Met bought an extraordinary Egyptian gold coffin for$4 million in Paris. The next year, Kim Kardashian was pictured standing next to it, wearing a gold Versace dress on the night of the gala.

20:18Matthew Bogdanos:It's a life-size coffin of Nedjermak. It sells for$4 million. It has never, ever been seen before. Where's it been? Where's it been hiding? This is a centerpiece of any museum in the world. Nobody asked where it came from. Of course, it was stolen during the Arab Spring. We know this because we found the looter. And I flew over and interviewed the actual looter who looted the piece.

20:44Sandra Kanth:Sometimes a picture is worth more than a thousand words.

20:48Matthew Bogdanos:That photograph of Kim Kardashian went viral and it was seen by the looter who had not been paid.

20:55Sandra Kanth:The ATU obtained a warrant to seize the piece from the Metropolitan Museum. And according to a museum spokesperson,

21:02Matthew Bogdanos:After learning it had been the victim of a fraud and cooperatively returning the coffin to Egypt in 2019, the Met undertook a thorough review of its process for verifying documentation and approving acquisitions, and then strengthened requirements for acquiring antiquities.

21:19Sandra Kanth:It now devotes substantial resources to provenance research and continues to work with the DA's office. Colonel Bogdanos comes across as charming and intimidating in equal measure, but it doesn't feel like it would take much to tip that balance against you. He has the demeanour of a man who spent plenty of time fighting his corner, both in the courtrooms of New York City and the boxing ring, which he still frequents. Which makes me wonder, what do the titans of the art world think when they see him walking through their doors?

21:53Matthew Bogdanos:It's an interesting dynamic. Had you asked me the question 15 years ago, what do museum directors or gallery owners or auction house managers think when we walk in the door? 15 years ago, it would have been incredulity. What are you kidding me? Wait, you wanted me to ask where it came from? Who does that? It's so untoward. I had someone tell me that is so impolite. It was a Brit. Said that is so untoward. That's what he told me. You want me to ask my client where she got it from? We don't do that here. That's not what my client expects. That was 15 years ago. Then it transitioned to a little anger.

22:41Matthew Bogdanos:What are you doing here? What, you want to give it back to fill in the blank of the country? They can't take care of it. They lost it in the first place. We can take care of it better. We appreciate it more. So you went from incredulity to let's call it hubris.

22:55Sandra Kanth:And that dynamic is still evolving.

22:57Matthew Bogdanos:I would say in the last five years, it's been extraordinary. Museum directors have called me up out of the blue and said, we have some pieces in our collection that came from someone you just convicted. and we're concerned about the provenance. Can we work together to see if these are in fact stolen? I've had gallery owners do the exact same thing. It's extraordinary. It is absolutely one of the best underreported success stories is there is a sea change in the entire industry that now says we want to be one of the good guys. I've had more museum directors and gallery owners say to me, 20 years ago, there were no rules.

23:44Matthew Bogdanos:And then 15 years ago, we didn't know what the rules were. Now we know what the rules are. We'll follow them. And if this office can take credit for anything, it's that.

23:57Sandra Kanth:An hour subway ride north of the ATU's downtown office is one of the campuses of Fordham University, situated along a loud and very busy street swirling with a cacophony of people and traffic. Pass through its gated entrance and you'll find the Walsh Family Library, a striking modern building that's home to the Fordham Museum of Greek, Etruscan and Roman Art. I'm Jennifer Udell. I'm the curator of university art. And it's quite an oasis here because I came off an absolutely thronging high street. How did you get here? I took the D train. Oh, well done. And did you call it a high street? I just did, didn't I?

24:36Sandra Kanth:Yes. Sorry.

24:37Matthew Bogdanos:If only it was high street, like in Edinburgh.

24:41Sandra Kanth:Jennifer walks us through the library's large, airy atrium to the museum, which is open to the public free of charge. We have some visitors in here now, which is unusual because it's summer and we're pretty slow here in the summer. Because it is incredibly hot here at the moment. Oh, it's wretched. Tomorrow's going to be even worse. During my visit to New York, the temperature hit 100 degrees Fahrenheit, which meant in that moment one of the library's most notable attractions was its air conditioning. It's about 4 ,000 square feet. And you walk in and it's a huge open space. Yes. Some blue walls, some white walls, some mosaics, statues.

25:21Sandra Kanth:Very welcoming lighting. It's a very welcoming space. It is, and thank you for saying that, because I completely reinstalled it and redesigned it in 2021, when 99 objects were repatriated and taken back to Italy. And this is why I'm here. Jennifer has experience dealing with the Antiquities Trafficking Unit. So let's go back for just a second. When you say you lost 99 items in your collection, how does one lose 99 items in a collection? Well, they were repatriated. In 2006, a former classics student at Fordham, William Walsh, donated his considerable Antiquities collection to the university, approximately 300 ancient objects.

26:06Sandra Kanth:But from the very beginning, Jennifer New accepting the donation would be problematic. Fordham's donor who acquired and collected the objects had bought the 99 in question from this dealer who was essentially the New York fence for this Italian art trafficker that the Carabinieri had had their eye on for a while and then subsequently the Southern District. The Southern District is a geographical reference to the Antiquities Trafficking Unit. The Carabinieri is a major arm of Italian law enforcement. The two organizations work very closely together. And so 99 of those objects were seized, repatriated, and sent back to Italy.

26:49Sandra Kanth:The university could have turned the donation down, but instead decided there was more benefit in putting the objects on display while simultaneously acknowledging and researching their history. And in the meantime, the collection can be studied and at least the Source Nation knows where the material is. That's the position we took. Was it the perfect solution? Probably not. Definitely not. In fact, it was very controversial and put Jennifer at the center of a debate about how institutions like this should treat stolen pieces of history. I did want to point out this object here. This is a cinerary hut urn.

27:27Sandra Kanth:What's a cinerary hut? It's a receptacle for cremated remains. It's a pre-Roman Iron Age culture, and it was tagged early, early on as being problematic. The Italian authorities tracked this object to Fordham University and wanted it back. The museum could have challenged the seizure in court, a battle they would lose, or return it to Italy. But Jennifer put forward another possibility. The third option is we acknowledge ownership of Italy, and we keep it here on long-term loan. This is the way forward. And there's a card next to it explaining it. It's a Cinerary Hut Urn, Villanovan, Iron Age, 9th century BCE.

28:11Sandra Kanth:And then underneath in bold black letters, it said, lent by the Republic of Italy. This object was looted and then acquired by the donor at auction in 1996. 1996. It was repatriated to Italy in 2010 and has been on long-term loan to Fordham since then. So you're being very open about the provenance of this object. And that's part of a teaching collection as well. And that means saying things like this. So this must be a problem for museums around the world. If you've got objects and you don't, you're not really 100 % sure of their provenance, what do you do? Just take them and put them in a basement until you figure it out?

28:48Sandra Kanth:I mean, maybe it's the right thing to do. Maybe keeping them from the public is the right thing to do, but you can see an argument on both sides. Well, that's why this is a difficult issue, because stealing antiquities and destroying ancient sites is a very, very, very, very bad thing. And it's horrific and something we don't want to play into. And yet, what do you do with these things? And that's another reason why they're called orphans is because what do you do with them? Do you ignore them and hope they go away? Will that solve the problems? Well, no. The short answer is no, and I think that is why I took the position I took.

29:22Sandra Kanth:There's literally no easy answer, which is why there hasn't been an easy solution. I haven't yet spoken with anyone who thinks combating looting and illegal trading in the antiquities market is a bad thing. However, I did come across people who were critical about the way the Antiquities Trafficking Unit and Matthew Bogdanos pursue their work, though most would only express their thoughts off the record. The word used most often in complaints about his methods was overreach, an assessment he very strongly denies.

29:55Matthew Bogdanos:I have no idea what overreach means. Either it's a crime or it's not, either it's stolen or not. I live in a Manichean universe, and I don't really care about your socioeconomic background. I don't care how much money you make. I don't care about how many generations of money you come from. All I care about is are you committing a crime? Period. Full stop. And that's what you want me to care about. You don't want me to care about anything else. I don't care about your education. Don't care. I care about are you committing a crime? I care about is this antiquity stolen? That's the law. That's not overreach.

30:31Matthew Bogdanos:That's the law.

30:32Sandra Kanth:Matthew Bogdanos has critics who argue he's tested the boundaries of the ATU's authority by attempting to seize allegedly stolen objects on display at other institutions around the country, using their transit through New York to assert jurisdiction. A small number have been challenged in court. And the prominence and potential threat of the ATU can be felt beyond the city's many museums.

30:59Matthew Bogdanos:so what you see around here is about a quarter of the catalogues and books i use for back researching for provenance and whatnot so all these boxes right here are catalogues

31:09Sandra Kanth:and we're surrounded by dozens of those boxes because this is moving in day for antiquities dealer sanjay kapoor he's left his manhattan address to open a new gallery in this industrial

31:20Matthew Bogdanos:loft space in long island city most of my sales have been online recently anyway so there's no point having the Madison Avenue space at$25 ,000 a month anymore. No one comes off the street and says, I want an 11th century Buddha. They find me when they want something.

31:36Sandra Kanth:Sanjay is a fourth generation art dealer. His grandfather started this business in 1975, specializing in Indian and Himalayan art. And now he's turning the space of white brick walls, lots of natural light, and a view of the city skyline into his new headquarters, with all the necessities needed to keep the moving crew around us motivated. There are donuts, an array of donuts and coffee here.

32:01Matthew Bogdanos:Always, always donuts and coffees. Increases productivity by at least 20%.

32:05Sandra Kanth:He's also the co-president of the Art and Antique Dealers League of America. Many of its members have been quite critical of the way the ATU operates. Sanjay has an additional challenge to overcome. His name is quite similar to a convicted Indian-American art trafficker, Sabhash Kapoor. which makes knowing the full history of any piece Sanjay wants to buy or sell absolutely crucial.

32:29Matthew Bogdanos:I always operate, you know, with provenance and due diligence up the wazoo. The first thing I do is I look at the paperwork before I look at the artwork and if I can't corroborate that provenance, I don't touch it.

32:40Sandra Kanth:This provenance work, vital for both big museums and smaller galleries, is time-consuming, expensive and requires a fair bit of detective work.

32:49Matthew Bogdanos:So I'll buy something from a small auction or private collection that I know is reputable first off. And then from there I'll go and I'll take a piece of provenance that they have.

33:02Sandra Kanth:And when you say provenance, you just mean paperwork tracing the object's ownership where it came from, that sort of thing.

33:07Matthew Bogdanos:Correct.

33:07Sandra Kanth:It sounds to me that that's where the real jeopardy lies. Because A, if the paperwork was not legitimate, or B, if there are gaps in it, that's where someone like you can step in.

33:19Matthew Bogdanos:I don't go by pan-signed documents unless they're like legitimate, notarized old paperwork or correspondences. I go by old publications, like the old auction catalogs.

33:32Sandra Kanth:This is why the majority of the boxes being moved around us are filled with auction catalogs going back decades. How much of your job is spent doing provenance research? 90%.

33:43Matthew Bogdanos:90%.

33:44Sandra Kanth:What's the other 10 %?

33:46Matthew Bogdanos:Crying. Why? Just try to make sales, send emails, produce catalogs, do write-ups, inventory pieces, get things conserved, get things framed, set up exhibitions. It's a lot.

34:03Sandra Kanth:So being an antiquities dealer requires a lot more than just buying and selling something.

34:08Matthew Bogdanos:Yeah, it does.

34:09Sandra Kanth:According to Matthew Bogdanos, the ATU has seized nearly$500 million of antiquities. They're appraised by experts. However, there's no standard formula to value objects with so much history and variation. But he'd argue they're priceless. So where do all these precious pieces of stolen history go while they're waiting to return home?

34:33Matthew Bogdanos:We have a secure storage facility. They are all treated with the respect they deserve.

34:39Sandra Kanth:This is what I meant earlier in the program when I mentioned Matthew also has a workspace below ground. The ATU evidence locker is located in the basement of a building across the street.

34:50Matthew Bogdanos:They're evidence, so they are catalogued, photographed, inventoried. We fill out chain of custody, and then they're there until we get a court order to return them to the country of origin.

35:04Sandra Kanth:I originally wanted to record our conversation in the ATU evidence locker, surrounded by the dozens of pieces that were being stored there. But that wasn't allowed. However, Matthew did give me a tour after our interview, on the condition that I didn't record anything or take any photos. There were shelves filled with pieces made of bronze and stone, and labelled by country. Myanmar, Turkey, Afghanistan, Greece, Thailand, Italy. The list goes on. In a separate part of the room, there were two huge mosaics, one from Syria and another from Lebanon, laid out on the concrete floor. For a brief moment, I could see and feel ancient culture and history.

35:46Sandra Kanth:It felt like walking through time. I asked Matthew if, after a bad day, he slips down to the room just to be around these objects. And without missing a beat, he answered yes. And each object gets a special send-off before it leaves the evidence room for its journey home.

36:04Matthew Bogdanos:We have a wonderful ceremony. It's like a mini wedding celebration, and we have done more than 140 of those so far, and every single one of them is special.

36:16Sandra Kanth:So how do you curtail a crime which has been taking place for centuries?

36:22Matthew Bogdanos:How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

36:30Sandra Kanth:The documentary was produced and presented by me, Sandra Canthal. It was mixed by James Beard, and the editor was Penny Murphy.