Raising children on a warming planet

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. America is changing. And so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London. And this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great-granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962. And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of U.S.

0:45President John F. Kennedy. We explore what was a terrifying moment in history. The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis. How close the world came to nuclear war. And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink. The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev. All episodes available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

1:31perhaps less for what was being discussed than who wasn't there, including the leaders of China, the US and India, the world's three largest emitters of greenhouse gases. As the temperature of the atmosphere continues to rise, some are questioning whether there's any point to having these global gatherings. So in our conversations, we wanted to hear from people who have decided to take their own action and will bring together a family grappling with the reality of reducing emissions when their own livelihood is at stake. Our first guests are Maya, who is in Sweden. She has three children and tries to lead what she calls a sustainable life.

2:08And Gwyn lives on the east coast of the United States. She's decided that the best way to save the planet is to not have children and has even had surgery so she can't get pregnant. When they spoke to my colleague Rob Young, Gwyn explained how she came to make such a radical decision. When I was a kid in my neighbourhood, I would go for walks every night with my mum and my sister and we would see bulldozers tearing down the forest in our neighborhood to build houses, a lot of the animals that live in the forest would come and run into our yard. We'd find snakes and that type of thing because their habitat was destroyed.

2:44And when I got to be a little bit older, maybe eight, I got a book on like 50 Simple Things Kids Can Do to Save the World and kind of started thinking more about the environment. And I thought back on my old house and I realized, oh, they were tearing down the forest to build houses, but they also did that to build my house. The forest is gone so that I could have a house. And it really kind of made me think like, I'm not intending to do this. I'm not intending to have this effect. But forests and oceans and prairies are being destroyed so that I can exist and so I can have my life. And I decided I didn't want to do that.

3:27I didn't want to continue that and realise that the most impactful thing I could do is not make more people. Now, Maya, you are also concerned about the climate, but have three children. Just talk to me your thoughts about the role of having children while also trying to tackle climate change. Just like Gwyneth, I've also had huge concerns about the environment as long as I can remember. But it was not until 2006 that I realized just how severe the climate crisis is. And then I decided to try to reduce my personal emissions as much as I could. So a few years later, I gave up flying. I'm a vegan and things like that.

4:08I don't have a car. When it comes to children, well, I had my first child in 2009. and after that I did think a bit that maybe one child is enough because I did share some of the thoughts that Gwyneth has. As the years has passed on, I started to think about this issue a little differently. I want to live in a way that I wish our society would look like and I would like to have a sustainable society where having children is not a problem because it's not really the children themselves that are the problem. The problem is that we have a society in which we live in a way that's not sustainable. So that's why I have decided to have more children.

4:52But I can also say that it's something that I thought a lot about. And I do realize that I think some people find me to be a bit of a hypocrite because I've been asking a lot of people to reduce how much they fly and, you know, give up meeting meat and things like that. and I'm still having children. So I think it's a complicated issue that I thought a lot about. That's all very important. I think those are all important steps that we can take. And it's just that it's not enough of an impact. I do most of those things myself or a lot of them. I've been car-free all my life. Very rarely fly, usually take train.

5:36Very low impact life. However, when we're producing more people, we can't control most of the impacts of those people. And we don't know how they're going to turn out. We don't know if they're going to grow up and have those same habits. And we also can't control the world that we're bringing them into. You know, having kids to grow up and experience, you know, severe famines, droughts, flooding, you know, disasters that are being caused by the climate crisis. You know, we don't have control over that. I do have control over my reproduction. I'm, you know, lucky enough to have that where I am in the U.S.

6:18So this is something that I could do to avoid all the things that I can't fix. If we're advocating a society without having children, that to me sort of conveys hopelessness. And I believe that having children is something that's very motivating into creating a better society. But I definitely agree with Gwyneth's concerns about how our children will be affected from the climate crisis. And it's, of course, a huge concern to me thinking about what my children's future will look like. So I can completely understand that people are hesitating to bring children into this world. But I'm still very happy that I've done so because to me, I can't imagine a world without my children.

7:13But I also realize that I believe that since to me being a mother has been very important and something that I feel very strongly about, then it's more difficult for me to sort of take in the information that, you know, maybe we shouldn't, if you see what I mean. I don't believe it's the most important thing to do, but I'm also aware that when I've been discussing giving up flying with people, it's been very interesting to see that people who fly a lot, they don't really tend to listen to the facts why flying is so bad for the climate. and they tend to make up arguments for why they should keep flying.

7:52Whereas if I speak to people who have never been on a plane, they instantly listen to the facts and they don't question it. So it's hard for me to know if I feel this way just because I feel so strongly about having children and would my opinion have been the same if I didn't have any. Gwyn, it's clear that Maya is attempting to tackle climate change partly for her children who will survive her. Who are you trying to save the planet for? I want it saved for every living creature and every living system. So not just my own offspring, but the kids who are already here, the people who are already here, the salt marsh, harvest mouse, every species that depends on somewhat stable climate and ecosystem.

8:40I understand that, you know, having kids to people, it's about hope often. I don't have a lot of hope that things will get better. Looking at graphs of environmental data, whether that's methane emissions, CO2, ocean temperature, you know, pretty much anything, any type of data you're using to track the environment is very, very dire and it's going all the wrong direction. And so the kindest thing I can do that to kids who are already here is try my best to make things better, do what I can as an individual to try and make things better, which I do in my work and my volunteering. But I can also choose to not make things worse.

9:27A lot of people has heard that, you know, having a child is the worst thing you can do for the climate. And then they are really stuck with that. There was a big Swedish study quite a few years back that stated that a child would contribute to, I think it was around 60 tons of CO2 a year, whereas a slight would be a couple of tons. And a lot of people hasn't really read the whole study. And what that study says, it's sort of that they've also taken into account future emissions for a child. And it's also what it will be like having children if we don't change our society and keep living the way we do.

10:05So it's a little bit misleading because it's not the children themselves that are the problem. It's our lifestyle and the way we live here. I mean, there are families in other countries where a family of 10 can have less emissions than a single person here living in maybe the Sweden or the UK. So not having children is not an excuse to keep having an unsustainable lifestyle. And I do realize, Gwyneth, that you are doing all those things. And I think that's very admirable. And I totally respect your decision. But I also know that many people have used not having children as an argument to keep having an unsustainable lifestyle, which is not correct.

10:47That's true. That's true. We have to live more sustainably. Those of us who currently exist, not just our offspring, we do have to make better choices. The only problem is that if making better choices is the only thing we're doing, that's also not enough. even if we do everything right, we're unlikely to be able to change complex global systems, especially those that have kind of the baked in energy, the runaway, or, you know, we're experiencing runaway climate change. So even if we stopped everything, even if we all disappeared right now, things are going to get very, very bad and will be very bad for a long time in terms of, you know, disasters and drought and heat.

11:35So it's also the kindest thing we can do to potential, you know, children is to not create them to suffer. That's, you know, definitely part of my reasoning also is I do really love kids. I have kids in my life and have really all my life kind of been like a big sister and aunt and looked after children in my life. And I'm very concerned for their future and I just know that based on the data things are very bad and I you know I don't want to create my own kids to be able to tell them I'm sorry I tried and I failed and you have to suffer because of it that's very unfair to them they didn't create this so that's also part of my thinking yeah I completely get what you mean and of course I'm also very concerned about my children and I know a few friends who have made the same decision as Gwyneth not having children so it's not a new thought to me if it was just up to me I probably wouldn't have had more than two children but I'm very glad that my husband still convinced me to have a third child because now I can't imagine the world without him but of course yes I'm very concerned about the future of my children.

12:50But I'm still like, yes, even if I am concerned about what their future will be, I'm still so happy and appreciate every moment that we have here and now. I try not to think too much about all the risks that we're taking in the future, but I'm still trying to do everything I can to work for a more sustainable society. Maya in Sweden and Gwyn in the United States discussing the environmental ethics of having children. And as Maya mentioned there, the relationship between population and climate change is complex. Most scientists agree that wealth and consumption make more of a difference when it comes to carbon emissions than absolute numbers of people.

13:32And of course, where you are born matters as well. People in richer countries leave the greatest carbon footprint. I'm Luke Jones, and this is the documentary from the BBC World Service.

13:53America is changing, and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I am Nina Khrushcheva, the great-granddaughter of Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of the Soviet Union in 1962. And I'm Max Kennedy, the nephew of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. we explore what was a terrifying moment in history.

14:38The story of the Cuban Missile Crisis. How close the world came to nuclear war. And what they had to do to pull it back from the brink. The bomb, Kennedy and Khrushchev. All episodes available now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Eric Marante had always been a fighter. Aged 21, he found himself with a squad stationed on a bridge in Iraq. On the morning of April 21st, 2007, a truck packed with 3 ,000 pounds of explosives was detonated just a few feet below them. This is a story about a man who turned pain into purpose. Therapy for me is being in the boxing ring. It's just good for your soul, good for your body.

15:25This is season four of Legacy, Defiant. Search Defiant Legacy wherever you get your podcasts.

15:37Aviation accounts for some 2.5 % of global carbon dioxide emissions and roughly 4 % of human-driven warming once other climate effects are included. That is expected to rise significantly in the coming years. Many people want to see flying curbed to help tackle climate change. Which brings us to our second conversation. Rich is an airline pilot in the United States. He was between flights in Hawaii when we called him. And his 20-year-old son is Finn, who lives in California and is a climate activist, which includes campaigning against flying. I reached a moment where there was a turning point, and this was on September 9th, 2020, When I awoke one morning to the sky outside of my window, completely descended in orange haze and ash and soot, that was because of the 2020 North Complex fire, which turned the Bay Area and the Golden Gate Bridge and all of San Francisco into this like Martian atmosphere.

16:42And I was also in the middle of the global pandemic. So here I was at 15 years old, seeing my future burning and seeing the world in utter isolation. And I realised that this was a moment where I couldn't look away because this is the future that I would be inheriting. Rich, tell us about you. How long have you been a pilot for? About 30 years flying. It's just something that I had always wanted to do as a child and was fortunate enough to be able to make happen at some point in my life. Is it as glamorous as I think it is? Probably not. But it's a really incredible, interesting, adventurous, rewarding job.

17:22So whatever isn't glamorous about it is made up for by the things about the job that are desirable, I think. Could you see the eventual conversation you guys must have had coming a mile off Rich? Were you thinking, oh, here it comes. He's going to stop asking me about my job and why I'm doing it? Well, you know, I think I've always been mostly aligned with Finn and his experience and his perspectives because I share many of his observations and realizations about climate change and where the planet is headed and the challenge of that. And I feel a lot of compassion for Finn's generation. I think the conversations that he and I have had that have had some tension at times have really been about how do I resolve the tension between my own awareness of and concern for where the planet is headed, how climate change will affect us, and the knowledge that I work in an industry that contributes significantly to adding to the crisis.

18:17and how I also feel the need to do my job for my own contribution to taking care of people, people's safety, getting them back and forth to places, including to climate change conferences. And so it's just a tension that I carry myself, whether I'm having a conversation with Finn or not. I do remember at times there being moments where I would talk about my anxieties, my fears about the future and the reality that we can't continue burning fossil fuels at the rate that we're doing if we want to have a stable climate and a stable economy. And I think that sometimes that tension of this isn't something that's working can create a sense of, I think, for my dad at times, frustration for him because he wants me to live in the most stable and healthy world possible.

19:18And I think sometimes perhaps there's moments where the reality of that not being the course that we're taking right now can create a sense of anger or guilt. I think sometimes there are moments where I'm talking about reality and we have two different kind of understandings maybe of what reality is. I can think of a conversation we had once where Finn was saying, imagine if all of the airline employees went on strike or quit their jobs in the name of climate change. And I didn't expect that he meant that that was likely to be something that could happen. But my reaction was somewhat abrasive because I thought it was sort of a pipe dream.

20:08And I remember actually getting kind of aggressive around saying, well, what do you think is going to happen with all these people's families, their children like you? You know, we have to pay for health insurance. There was this frustration and tension and reaction on my part around these big ideas about what probably does need to happen in order to solve this crisis and the conflict between that and just my own everyday need and desire to help take care of my son by having a job like that. You know, it's something where as I've gotten older, I've realized more and more the challenges of needing to earn a paycheck, of needing to have a stable income to be able to afford to put food on the table and also to pay for health insurance and to create a stable, wonderful life that I honestly have been very privileged to lead.

21:03At the same time, and I see this amongst many young people, I think we've grown up in such a time of instability in terms of the pandemic, the age of the internet, the climate crisis, so on and so forth. And I think so many of us want to see, obviously, things aren't working, right? We need to see change from our leaders. I think perhaps the disagreement is where does the change come from? I think in my mind, I've thought, well, why aren't we having more people who have the power to do so, maybe at companies, like rallying together and putting the pressure on their CEOs and their companies? And I think that that's obviously something that's easier for me to say on the sidelines.

21:50I'm definitely more and more open to sort of understanding why that might not be a reality. But I do want to see more people using the levers of change that they have and it not just being young people who are in college. First and foremost, I'm so proud of Finn and I'm so grateful for the passion that he has in actually caring about the issue of climate and that he's really passionately engaged in trying to make change. And what is possible for me to do to contribute is, number one, to be supportive of Finn and others like him. Two, to have some compassion and tenderness and care around how I have conversations about these issues.

22:43And then to be curious about the kinds of changes that might be possible even within my industry. my mind remains open and curious and willing to listen and try to make whatever contributions I can while at the same time I continue to look at the microcosm of my own career as something that I am going to continue to be a part of. And what about you Finn has the experience of rationalizing all of this with your dad actually affected then how you go about trying to be an activist and change other people's minds? 100%. And I think right there, that's honestly one of the most important takeaways from the conversation is that I think sometimes it is in the greatest tensions that we have with our loved ones, and maybe the moments where we're at odds, where the greatest solutions lie.

23:34A lot of my work involves engaging as many people as possible and bringing as many people as possible into the climate movement. And that starts with seeing people, that starts with activating people and making them feel valuable. And you can't do that by approaching whatever job or values or work that they have from a place of shame, of guilt, or of blaming. In fact, I'm proud of the oil and gas truckers and the folks who work on oil rigs. I mean, these are working class people working in really hard working conditions, and they're getting up every day to frankly at times risk their life to put food on the table for their families and also to be able to run society you know and i think a lot of the energy that we're using it may be something that i disagree with but i think that we absolutely cannot villainize any worker and by actually having conversations with workers and and meeting them where they're at understanding what their needs are.

24:39I think that's where we can create as much unity and change as possible. I would support what Finn said and take it, you know, maybe a step further too, to think about the political divides in our country and how often climate issues become whittled down to, you know, us against them, maybe Democrat versus Republican, you know, good versus bad. And I think one of the things that I think about why people would ignore the facts and the science and the reality of the situation. I think it comes down to something that's been referenced, which is around people's feeling shame and guilt. If people are part of something that's making the planet less healthy, I think it's hard for us to reconcile that we would be a source of that problem.

25:30And we don't want to feel like we're villains or that we're bad just for being who we are doing what we're doing if we can get away from the idea of um us versus them you know you're either good or bad because you're on the right or the wrong side around this and and if more people could realize that they as finn pointed out are not personally or their or their livelihood is not specifically being targeted as bad and that we have these conversations like the way finn and i can have and hold the tension and hold the difficult conflicts and uncertainty about how we actually resolve these things and do it with compassion for each other, then I think there's more hope for progress.

26:14Rich and Finn. Thank you to them and thank you to everyone who shared their experiences this week. I'm Luke Jones and you've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

26:31America is changing. And so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. I'm Tristan Redman in London. And this is The Global Story. Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection, where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.