Rapping behind bars in Cameroon

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Odoo, providing tools for businesses across industries into one fully integrated platform. Whatever your business needs, Odoo is committed to providing it. Learn more at od00.com. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian, and we have a lovely, funny fascinating chat about a different subject from world history and in this new series we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of homer the iliad and the odyssey and that's with kyle smith bino joining us and then we'll be learning about francis galton and the racist discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with desiree birch we'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with rachel parris so if that sounds like your sort of thing listen to your dead to me wherever you get your podcasts.

0:58Thank you. Bye.

1:03You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

1:11Welcome to the fifth floor from the BBC World Service with me, Farhanak Amidi.

1:20The BBC World Service broadcasts in 45 languages around the world. Our job here at the Fifth Floor is to bring you the best of those stories in English. Coming up, how a 13-year-old boy's rejection by an Egyptian football academy sparked a national conversation about anti-Christian discrimination.

1:41Wedaeli Chibelushi:Since 1990, there was only one famous Egyptian football player who was Christian, who was playing in El Ahli, which is one of the major football clubs in Egypt. People now are speaking about that out loudly. But first, Nubal Prison in Douala, Cameroon operates a bit like a city within a city. The facility has its own taxis, its own law enforcement and its own market. The jail is overcrowded and under-resourced and the occupants have adapted the jail's stretched system to work for them. An on-site music studio and label has also sprung up and found an international audience. Widei Leech Belushi, journalist for BBC World Online Africa, came into the Fifth Floor studio to tell us more about it.

2:29A 2022 report from the human rights organisation, Human Rights Watch, found that there was 4 ,700 prisoners there, and that's four times the capacity. And so you've got prisoners sleeping in the courtyard under the stars because there's just not enough beds, and they actually call them the penguins because they huddle together outside in the courtyard. And then also sanitation is really poor. So there's not clean drinking water. There's not enough food. So you get prisoners fighting over food. Also, a lot of violence as well. So you've got gangs operating the prison, taking each of us food, money.

3:06Yeah, it can get quite bad there. in 2022 there was a cholera outbreak and again human rights organizations have put the fact that it spread so quickly down to the fact that it's so overcrowded the conditions are so poor so at least six people died during the outbreak and that's the figure that the authorities gave but um detainees have said that the death toll was much larger yeah when i was watching the videos it doesn't even look like a prison it kind of looks like a favela or like kind of like a spiraling slum a free-for-all basically yeah yeah what kind of people end up in this prison so unlike a lot of prisons where you've got like either maximum security or prisons where you know you've got people that go for doing petty crimes with new bell is just the whole range so you've got people who are on death row for doing murders but you've also got people who have committed very low like petty crimes and minor crimes so for example there's a musician called jeje who is from Nigeria but she moved to Cameroon to live with her uncle and at the age of 16 she ran away from his house and stole some of his money because if she says that he was abusing her and so she ended up in Nubal for stealing from her uncle so that is obviously in the women's prison or are they mixed yeah it's mixed so there's there's a women's wing yeah yeah so you've got people like JJ in there for stealing money but then you've also got people that have done murders and are on death row.

4:31That is absolutely terrifying. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the word that she used to describe her experience that terrifying. It is terrifying. So this jail time records, this record label, how was it created? And when? So it's created in 2018. There's an Italian artist called Dionne Roach. And she was volunteering in the prison with a nonprofit organization and so during a dance class some of the prisoners took over the microphone started freestyling and she was like oh okay this is these guys have got talent and so these guys kept rehearsing and she went to the prison authorities and was like how would you feel about setting up a studio and actually making something of these guys talent and the prison authorities were like yeah sure so they set up a studio and she enlisted one of the prisoners to run it his name's Steve Happy um and he has experience in producing and sound engineering so that's that's how it got started and they own they don't just broadcast they make these full-on music videos i mean i watched a couple of them and i was just seriously it was mind-blowing this is high production yeah absolutely and i'm a big hip-hop fan and to me too the the quality like the music videos they are as good as a uk rap video filmed on the streets of london or hip-hop video from LA, like just really high quality videos.

5:56And everyone gets involved. So you get other prisoners dancing, being hype men, some of them behind the camera as well. It's yeah, it's I'll definitely implore people to watch. It's incredible. And the quality of the music is so good. Yeah. So what about the prisoners who take part in these videos and in this creative space? What do they say about it okay so steve happy who i mentioned so he used to be a prisoner he's now out but he's the person that runs the studio he produces sound engineers and he also raps as well and he says that while he was there he was like it allows us to like think and see behind beyond these four walls enables us to find freedom which i thought was quite quite strong and also jeje who i mentioned earlier she described her experience there as terrifying but she said when she was able to get into the studio and make music, the experience of being in prison became less terrifying for her.

6:50What about the prison authorities? What is their take on the whole situation? Yeah, so they're really into it. So both Dion and Steve, when my colleague Tom interviewed them, they were saying that when they approached the prison authorities, they were just like, yeah, sure, because they were saying that Cameroonians love music. It's like a really, really big part of their culture and daily lives. So for the prison authorities, they were like, of course like yeah this could be nothing but a good thing of course the people in these videos they are criminals some of them very dangerous criminals yeah and when i was actually watching the video in the beginning it is quite scary because you know they pretend like they're shooting guns and you know it is kind of like intimidating um do these videos glamorize crime and the life of criminals so from jail time records point of view um they're saying this is a rehabilitation project it's not our place to judge these people we don't glamorize them we don't condemn them we just enable them to make music and basically rebuild their lives so that they can become core members of society again and that's good for everyone and as for the lyrics it ranges so you get some people talking about you know don't mess with me i've done dangerous things before but you also get people like jejo who are kind of pouring their heart out like you know this is what i've been through no one's ever been there for me i guess catharsis um and something that you can really like really empathize with so um have any of the artists gone on to become successful recording artists outside of prison so with the new tune channel You get people like Amparo, who is the leader of the quarter Latin gang.

8:38At the time of me writing the article, he had 24 ,000 views for his video, which is pretty good. But he's still in jail at the moment. So it's hard to tell how good he will be, how much attention he'll be after leaving prison. But it's hard to tell how big people who have left have got when they are outside the prison. Thank you very much, Wedele. Thanks to Wedele Chibalushi from BBC World Online Africa.

9:09In Egypt, Christians are a substantial minority, making up 10 to 15 percent of the population. But they are not always represented fairly in employment and public life. This month, the case of 13-year-old Makati Yunnan has led to a public debate over anti-Christian discrimination. Ahmed Omar of BBC Arabic joins me now from the BBC's Cairo Bureau. Ahmed, welcome to the program. It's great to have you.

9:38Wedaeli Chibelushi:Thank you. So tell me about Makari. What happened to him? Makari, he is a young football player. He is a young kid. He's 13 years old and he was trying to get enrolled in a football academy in Egypt. He was reportedly denied entry after the coach discovered that he was Christian. Actually, the story got a lot of attention on the social media after his mom posted the story. So according to the mother's post, he participated in the test for this academy. He was getting positive feedback. Then when the coach asked him for his name, which is obviously Egyptian Christian, then the coach told him that he is rejected.

10:17Wedaeli Chibelushi:After the mom posted the story, it got so many attention, so many feedback from different sides. And then later on, the club, the Egyptian authorities issued statements that this was not true, that the kid misunderstood the thing. And then they suspended the coach and he was sent on investigation. And the player was finally admitted into the team. He got that. He was approved and he was admitted into the team finally after like two days. So since 1990, there was only one famous Egyptian football player who was Christian, who was playing in El Ahli, which is one of the major football clubs in Egypt.

10:52Wedaeli Chibelushi:Since then, in 1990s, there was no much Christian Egyptian players who are playing in domestic tournaments and playing also in the national team. The point that people now are speaking about that out loudly. Let's talk about some of the main discriminations that the Christian community have been facing historically and at the moment. We can divide this into a couple of time phases. If we're talking about the current one, we do not have a clear-cut sort of discrimination. But definitely there is glass ceiling and there is a couple of incidents that happen every now and then. Whenever Christians are trying to expand the building of any of their churches, most of the time this is causing some hassle, especially if we're talking about rural areas.

11:38Wedaeli Chibelushi:There are some glass ceilings here and there, but we do not have this sense of systematic discrimination against Christians. The current regime has been very keen during the past 10 or 12 years on showing how supportive he is to the Christians, to the minorities, and basically the Christians, because this is one of the pillars that he built his legitimacy on. And the political regimes have been very keen on having this representation either in the cabinet or in the ambassadors or in the public fairs and spokespersons for the government on taking this box, that Christian representation is there.

12:13Wedaeli Chibelushi:No one can deny that discrimination is present. But now if we are comparing this to what, say, for example, what happened during the 80s, during the flourishing time for the Islamist groups, this is definitely totally different. And even during this phase between 2014 till 2016, 2017, when the Islamic State was very active, and it was even active in Egypt, they were targeting for churches. This had been happening frequently in those three, four years. It was really serious back then. This is not the case anymore. But definitely, there is somewhere some discrimination that people can feel, but it's not that on the surface like it used to be before.

12:50So the situation in general has improved for the safety and security of the Christian community. But discrimination still, social and cultural discrimination still exists.

13:02Wedaeli Chibelushi:Exactly. This is the thing. Yes, yes, exactly. The extremists are still there. But this is in the social media sphere, nothing on ground. So I just want to stay with Makari Yunnan's case a little longer than we move to football in general. But Makari Yunnan's case, what happened on social media? What kind of reactions did you see? And who were the main drivers behind the social media debate? There was so many players, so many different players, if you want to just divide. There was someone, let's say, the mainstream that was condemning and was very much against what happened and saying that this is irrational discrimination.

13:44Wedaeli Chibelushi:This was a biggest chunk. This was basically from public figures, from regular users on social media. There were some other voices that were saying that this is the texture of the team and this is an Islamic country. And this team, the point that Egyptian national team, it was called the team of the states because they used to kneel in the Islamic way after they scored goals. So they were called the team of believers. this was very common and every now and then there have been those photos of the coach holding the muslim holy book quran during the matches and for players sight of quran and praying before matches so this had been more or less the ambience or the setup for the egyptian national team so it was very much associated with islamic religion for some time uh some people were using that as a drive to explain that they should be Muslims, but those were a little bit less in terms of quantity and no public figures were supporting or were having this time.

14:46I was researching for this story and I came across another coach from another team making a statement in Egypt that if you don't, this is an Islamic country, and if you don't want to be discriminated against, maybe choose a different name for your children. Did you come across that?

15:04Wedaeli Chibelushi:Yeah, I came across that. And actually such statements come most of the time from extremists. It's not the mainstream. So as you mentioned, the national team of Egypt became kind of like this iconic Islamic Muslim team. Where did the Christians stand? This reminds me of the most iconic Christian Egyptian football player who played in the World Cup in 1990. His name was Hani Ramzi. He was 100 % neutral name. You can never tell from the name if he's Muslim or Christian. The point is, for the past, for saying 25 years, this conversation had been happening behind closed doors to the extent that even in 2018 and 2019, there was a football academy that was called Je Sui in French.

15:48Wedaeli Chibelushi:It was in Alexandria in northern Egypt. And this academy, it was known that this academy is basically for players, Christian kids who want to get enrolled in professional football. The other thing that actually Makary was lucky for, that currently during maybe the last 10 years, the social and economical category that have been looking for and trying to get into the football academies had a little bit changed. This was not the typical social and economical classes that used to apply and used to try to get admitted into the football clubs before. So now with this change happening, someone would say that those classes, they cannot tolerate discrimination, maybe like other less fortunate classes during the past years.

16:33Wedaeli Chibelushi:So this, in addition to the support of the regime, in addition to the social media, all those made Makari very much lucky compared to other players who maybe may have faced, definitely, we don't have an accurate number. So there is cultural changes happening slowly, brewing. Exactly. So this is not the spike of the wave. Actually, this is the wave at least moving a little bit in the right direction. So tell me, Ahmed, about the importance of academies when it comes to football. Why are they so important? And why is it so important for people to get into these academies before entering professional football?

17:10Wedaeli Chibelushi:Egypt is more or less a poor country. We have to admit that. And the poverty rates in Egypt is significantly high. It's moving downwards, but it's still significantly high. And one of the profitable professions is football player, especially for those who do not have academic qualifications that may enable them to go into the labor force market. So many families are looking that their kids can get a good profession and good career if they manage to start playing football. So the golden gate to be enrolled in the teams that will be playing in major tournaments is those academies. So say, for example, 5 ,000 players will be admitting, only 40 will be admitted into the teams.

17:51Wedaeli Chibelushi:So it is very critical for so many families that see that this is the way for their kids to pursue their passion for football or even to try to achieve some sort of social and economical upgrade in the community. So it is important, especially in rural areas and outside of Cairo. This is seriously important. Thank you very much, Ahmed. Thanks to Ahmed Omar from BBC Arabic. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

18:46epic poems that became backbones of Western literature. Join me and my fantastic guests as we unpack the stories of ancient Greek culture, war and triumph and have a laugh while we do it. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. Bye.

19:06This is The Fifth Floor and I'm Farina Kami-D. If I lower my head, it's certainly not because of the fruits on the ground, but because of my gratitude for others. This is Wang Zibing, a Chinese food delivery writer in his 50s. He's also a poet.

19:33I have written 150 ,000 kilometers and written 5 ,000 poems. Today, I want to share my poem with you. Wang has found a huge online following in China and beyond with his reflective poems capturing his daily life. Now he's won one of China's top literary prizes. After growing up poor and doing many different jobs, Wang became a food delivery writer in 2019. He often scribbles poems on scraps of paper between deliveries, but the prize he's won is named after poet Liu Shun, seen by many as the father of Chinese literature. Ko Yu from the BBC's Hong Kong Bureau came into the fifth floor studio to tell us his story.

20:22So Wang Jibing is the latest literary sensation in China right now. So he's a 56-year-old food delivery rider who was born in a rural village in Jiangsu province, eastern China. He did not finish middle school before he left to start working. In his life, he's dabbled in various odd jobs, things like construction work. At one point, he scavenged for waste. And then for some time, he was also selling things from a street stall. Around 2019, he became a food delivery rider at a time when the industry was really booming and people saw it as a way to make money while also maintaining some control over your time.

21:11And that was during the COVID breakout, yeah? That was, yes. So it came at a time where the services of these food delivery riders were especially important because people didn't necessarily want to or could leave their houses because of the pandemic. And tell me about his poetry. What is his poetry about and what inspires him? So he draws a lot of inspiration for his poetry from his daily life. One of his most famous poems, the one that made him viral in 2022, is called Man in a Hurry. And that was inspired by this particularly difficult delivery that he had. And that really resonated with a lot of people when he posted his poem online.

22:03Driving wind from the air Driving blades from the wind Driving fire from the bone Driving water from the fire Those in a hurry have no seasons Only this stop and the next The world is a place name And so is Wangjiang Village Every day I encounter one after another sprinting delivery rider pounding the earth with their feet, constantly being tempered in this mortal world.

22:42So can you tell us a little bit more about the story behind this poem? Right. So the story behind this poem came from this particularly memorable and tragic story, tragic delivery he had in 2019. he spent hours trying to find the delivery address for this food delivery he had and he could not he ran something like 18 floors trying to get to the address and kept getting the wrong house and it turned out to be because his customer had filled in the wrong address in the app so when he finally got to the correct house the person who opened the door was this young guy who looked really annoyed and frustrated and the young guy said something to him like if you are so old at your age if you are still doing delivery you must be really dumb and that incident really stayed with him as a delivery rider there's something like millions of them in China and they make up really the fabric of cities across the country.

23:55But these are often anonymous people who are scrambling around and trying to chase deliveries for pittance and kind of and being seen as subhuman almost. So Koyu, can you tell me, who do you think his poetry resonates with and China? His poetry has resonated across China, really. He's read by regular people in China, not just blue-collar workers like himself, but also office workers. And I think a big part of that is because food delivery writers, they obviously work really hard and have really tight deadlines to meet. But when you look at the broader China, there's a really grueling work culture over there where there's this thing called 996 where people are expected to work 9 a.m to 9 p.m six days a week uh from that you can kind of see that there's a lot of pressure to really uh commit yourself to work and outperform your fellow employees a lot of young chinese especially feel like they are trapped in a rat race they don't see hope in their future they feel like even though they have been studying really hard, you know, outdoing their classmates, that does not necessarily guarantee them a good job.

25:20And this has become especially a dominant sentiment given China's economic slowdown and high youth and unemployment rates, which is why when people read about the kind of desperation and hopes that Wang writes about, it has particularly resonated with them. And tell me more about this prize. What would it mean for him? What would the prize do for him? So the prize does come with cash. The exact amount is unclear for this round of the prize. But as far as we know, in the past, it has been around 15 ,000 US dollars. That's about 11 ,000 pounds. So that's quite a bit of money for a food delivery rider.

26:10And the truth is that since he went viral a few years ago, his finances has really turned around. He now owns, he now runs a little grocery shop with his wife. But he has continued to do food deliveries on the side while also paying more attention and committing more time to his writing. Do you know if he wants to continue the food delivery or not? That's interesting because you would think given the freedom now to pursue riding full time or, you know, do some other job, he has actually said that he would continue to be a delivery rider. He thinks that it's something that, you know, he's used to doing every day now.

26:57He doesn't necessarily have to stop just because he has gained some kind of recognition. Yeah. Well, also, it seems that the job inspires him. So why not? It does. I mean, for his latest poetry collection, the award-winning one, he actually interviewed something like more than 100 delivery writers. So it's not just his own experience that you're reading about. It's these little anecdotes, voices, the hopes and thoughts of delivery writers around China, really. Rivers are water and so are rain and snow It's one reason I love the world The sunrise is light And so is the candle flame It's another reason I love the world Wow, best of luck to Wang Thank you so much, Koyu Thank you Thanks, Koyu from BBC's Hong Kong Bureau and to David Holt for reading Wang's poems.

27:57That's all we've got time for today. If you want to let us know what you think about the show or you have questions for us, send an email to the5thfloor at bbc.co.uk. We love hearing from you. You can write to us at the5thfloor, all one word, at bbc.co.uk.

28:19This is the documentary from the BBC World Service.