Somalis in America

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0:41Hello, I'm James Reynolds. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC OS Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences. And this time, we're hearing from Somalis, after Donald Trump said that Somali immigrants in the US should go back to where they came from. The president's comments came after allegations of large-scale fraud in Minnesota's social assistance program, costing the state tens of millions of dollars. Several Somali immigrants have been implicated. Whilst those accused of involvement represent only a small fraction of Minnesota's large Somali population, Trump has repeatedly criticized the community, saying that he doesn't want them in the country.

1:23You know, our country's at a tipping point. We could go bad. We're at a tipping point. I don't know if people mind me saying that, but I'm saying that we could go one way or the other, and we're going to go the wrong way if we keep taking in garbage into our country. President Trump speaking to reporters. And later we'll hear from Somalia and from Somali immigrants around the world. Firstly, though, we go to Minnesota, where the twin cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul are home to one of the largest Somali communities in the world. To find out what they thought of the president's comments, we brought together Kosar, a graduate student, Abdi, a film producer, and Amin, an immigration lawyer.

2:03It doesn't directly affect me personally, but it affects my community. It affects the people that I work with. I have community members who are panicking, and this touches them, family and friends, that this impacts directly. So instead of just the regular practice, I am now responding to this kind of emergency situation. Yeah, there's this kind of cloud over our heads that's darkened a lot more. I mean, again, this isn't the first time that the president has disparaged our community, but it's the first time he's disparaged us directly. So this has been a time for community to really step back and question if we belong here, but also who are our friends, who are our allies, who are going to stand with us.

2:40And we've been lucky to see an outpouring of support from the community, the broader Minnesota community. You know, the question is, where do we go from here and how do we, you know, stronger at the end of this? I think the most critical pieces for us is understanding the longstanding history of the United States, particularly dehumanizing and stereotyping and marginalizing immigrant groups, right? Particularly new American immigrant groups. We know this happened with Eastern and Southern Europeans. This happened with Chinese immigrants. This also happened with Irish and Catholic immigrants in the 17 and early 1800s.

3:15And so what really we're seeing right now is what we would consider a red herring, right? It's really to not really put a map and put in light on the level of economic disenfranchisement that's happening across the United States, both in rural and urban communities. And so I think it's critical to really raise awareness, but also really understand what is our shared humanity around this long U.S. tradition of really racialized labeling of immigrant groups. There are a number of investigations that you'll know about which do touch upon the Somali community where you are. Firstly, federal prosecutors have charged more than 75 people, some of them from the Somali diaspora, with committing widespread fraud during the pandemic.

3:59And then you'll see at the start of this week, the Treasury Department announced that it's investigating allegations that tax dollars from Minnesota may have been devoted to the Al-Shabaab militant group in Somalia. These are both serious investigations and allegations. Amin, as an attorney, how do you deal with them? In terms of committing crime and fraud, that's something that happens in every community. We shouldn't be responsible as a community for the actions of individuals. For the other part, in terms of money making back to Somalia and to terror groups and all that, I don't think there was a shred of evidence.

4:31We know that community members in Minnesota have family members and friends in Somalia. They have every right to support their family and friends in Somalia. No one just has the money laying around to give to al-Shabaab or whatever other terror group out there. So that's just a red herring, as Kauten mentioned. I don't think it has any basis in truth. It's just a way to rile up whatever base that this information was meant to rile up against the Somali community in Minnesota. and it's just marginalizing and it's just causing a lot of confusion and name calling and finger pointing as opposed to addressing the real problems faced by the American people and the people in Minnesota.

5:14On that second point, of course, we'll await the findings of the Treasury Department investigation. And going back to the remarks made by President Trump, he clearly spoke in a way that has upset many in your community. But is there a different way of looking at an underlying point here that Somalia is a state which has suffered from conflict for decades with unsurprising results. If you look at Transparency International, its ranking of perceived corruption, Somalia is 179th out of 180 countries in the world. If you look at income ahead and literacy, it's towards the bottom 10. Somalia might be dealing with its own infrastructure challenges, its own political and democratic challenges.

5:57But again, It's also a nation that's been colonized by three European nations all simultaneously. It's a young nation, much like other nations across the African continent, that is really still grappling with these borders that were designed by people who did not look like them, right? And so when you take all of that into consideration, past histories, current infringements, and also recognizing that much of the Western Hemisphere is still interested in investing in Somalia, right? We have the longest coastline on the African continent. And so when you have a situation of that orientation, you oftentimes will find that there is going to be issues and issues of contention in particular.

6:38And so I'd be interested in understanding what is the United States' interest in continuing partnerships and investment in Somalia if we continue to actually see their communities as less than. It's a terrible way for us to be in the conversation, right? Somalis were introduced to the mainstream years ago with films like Black Hawk Down and Captain Phillips, and we're painted as these savage people. And the depiction of us is just untrue. And so we've never been in control of our own narrative. And this is another example in which there's a media topic about us that we don't have control over.

7:13I definitely appreciate this opportunity to be able to speak on the community. Another thing that I want to point out that is though Minnesota is a wonderful home for us. statistically, Minnesota has ranked as one of the states in the country with the largest amount of disparity, a huge racial gap, whether we're looking at income equality, if we're looking at homeownership, not even just for the Somali community, I'm talking about from white to non-white. This place ranks high as a place with great parks, great schools and Fortune 500 companies such as Target, Best Buy and General Mills. But rarely do you see that those opportunities are going to people of immigrant background, black and brown Minnesotans.

7:54And so what that creates is a place where we feel on the outside. We feel on the outskirts. So part of my job has been over the years to work with institutions, to work with production companies and streaming companies to really paint an accurate picture and portrayal of the Somali community as entrepreneurs, as innovators, as people who are willing to contribute. But again, we're in an uphill battle just to take back our own narrative. So it's unfortunate, but I think that there are reasons why we see that our people are on the outside now because the president and others have painted this narrative that gives people an excuse not to work with us, not to partner with us.

8:36But despite all that, it's been great to see a lot of support from the community. I mean, do you ever get to travel to Somalia? I've traveled back to Somalia this summer to Mogadishu. I was only there for about a week. And yeah, that's been my only time that I traveled back. But I do keep in touch with family and friends back in Somalia. And Somali-Minnesotans do contribute in a positive way to Somalia, whether it's in education, in business, in government, in all kinds of sectors. Individuals that are serving in Somali government and business communities and education and health often come back to Minnesota and tell us about it.

9:14So when you're back there, is it like fitting in immediately or are there American parts of you which you feel, oh, that's interesting. I'm more American than I thought. I do call Minnesota home. And, you know, coming back, even within such a short time, when I came back in two weeks, I was already feeling homesick and was very happy to be back home. Unfortunately, I haven't had the opportunity to go back. You know, I was born in a refugee camp just outside of Mombasa, and I've longed to go back home and contribute. I think, you know, the future of Somali's development and Somali's bright future really rests in the hands of those who are there in the country, but also within the diaspora.

9:53So I've actually in the past, I've worked with many Somali organizations, whether it's the Somali Museum or the Somali North American Business Professionals groups, where I have highlighted the work of developers and tech leaders and healthcare professionals who are looking to not only take their talents and experiences and professional backgrounds here to give upward mobility and economic mobility within the community, but also help develop and contribute back home. So that's something that I've longed for. I can't tell you, I mean, the coastline that we have that Kosar alluded to, I mean, it's a beautiful one.

10:29And our stories are so rich. Things that I think people have to understand is that Somalia is a, you know, we have an ancient culture, right, that goes back to ancient Egypt, that goes back to Rome, that we were a partner with these empires. and I think that's gotten lost in our history and our narrative and so I as a filmmaker as a storyteller I long for the day that I can set up camp back home and have a film production right there and in the last few years we've actually seen more and more Somali films being placed at international film festivals like Cannes and like TIFF at Toronto so when I do go back home it'll definitely be with a camera crew in tow and tell some good stories.

11:10In any community of course part of the culture is the cuisine the food if someone joined you in Minneapolis and didn't know much about Somali food or cuisine where would you take them and what would you tell them to eat well we have to take them to the OG spot which is which is on Lake Street and a newer spot that recently opened in the last year which is Sanag and both areas will offer an amazing federation plate, which is a mix of what we would consider pasta, right? Pasta bolognese and a federation of rice. And you'll have an assortment of meats. So we have keke, we have a form of a fried chicken.

11:48We'll usually have salmon or tilapia or other fine fishes. And usually it'll be paired with a soup, hot piping Somali tea. So, I mean, there are so many places to choose from and tons of wonderful and warm food, especially this time of the year when it's cold. Anyone who comes to Minneapolis can have access to all this. Amin, Abdi and Khosar in Minneapolis, St Paul. Amin there referred to an emergency situation. And in recent days, the BBC's US partner CBS News has been reporting that immigration and customs enforcement operations targeting Somali immigrants are underway in the Twin Cities. I'm James Reynolds.

12:28You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

12:40I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom and the trading floor. That's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive. But even though I've got questions, join me, Merrin's Upset Web, every week for my show, Merrin Talks Money from Bloomberg Podcasts, where I have in-depth conversations with fund managers, strategists and experts about how markets really work. And join me for a separate episode where I answer listener questions questions on how to make those markets work for you. Follow Meron Talks Money on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.

13:14Somalia's recent history has been shaped by more than 30 years of civil war. As a result, millions of people have fled the country. For our next conversation, my colleague Luke Jones brought together Faduma. She works for the HR department of a company in Finland, where she's lived since she was four years old. Hesham is a second generation Canadian Somali living in Toronto. And Mohamed is an author here in London. Like every other community in the world, like we all have our different stereotypes that we're facing, this whole concept of lawlessness and we don't have a government. Actually, if actually we do, yes, it's not perfect.

13:51Like every other government out there in the global south, we also have a lot of Somalis that are contributing team back home in different aspects, whether it's entrepreneurship, whether it's humanitarian purposes, education. The best way is to showcase humanized Somali stories around the world, doing different things, incredible things, and showcasing positive portrayal of Somalis in general. My work revolves around doing that. And it's a small faction. And there are other people doing similar things on a collective will, you know, hopefully will be much more powerful. And I would just echo that, like what Mohammed is saying around that narrative of like we come from a lawless place and a place that the people themselves are lawless.

14:33I think that kind of sentiment is factually untrue. Even I had the chance to go back to Somalia twice, actually, in the past couple of years. And just like you go there and there is a way of life. There is academic institutions that are growing. There is growing trust in the system. But the notion and the narrative of a people, a lawless people or people that come from a place that doesn't have that is factually untrue. and one that is perpetuated mostly by an anti-immigration sentiment, not just in America, but across Europe and across different places, you're seeing a lot of minorities and immigrants being scapegoated.

15:03I totally agree with Hashim and Mohamed. If you look at social media, you can see a lot of beautiful pictures about Somalia and the videos when people are traveling there. Of course, we don't have the perfect government, and still the government is actually quite new because of the war. So basically every nation has a time to develop, to actually learn more about how to have a good government. And I think Somalis, if you look at the youth and the diaspora, I think we are the future that can be leading the country and maybe building a much better government. And these kind of conversations in BBC, these are the places to showcase who are we.

15:55You know, the president of the United States used a very ugly language toward Somalis. They don't define who are Somalis. We are basically telling and showing who are we by our own behavior. And I think we should just be more open and visible of our work, you know. and we're not like those things that they are telling about us. Do any of you feel discriminated against? Do you ever confront it in your own lives? Of course. Discrimination has been always, you know, in our lives. Being a Muslim and black person, you face usually more discrimination than white person. But I think that's also things that makes us more resilient because we have been always basically not privileged in these kind of countries that we are living.

16:47But at the same time, I can see discrimination as a leverage because it will shape the human being, you know. It will make you more resilient. We can face obstacles because if you are being always handled everything, maybe you cannot handle any obstacles. But I feel like I have a very good, you know, strength with myself. and I've seen the same strength in Somali community. If we are talking about this current situation in what happens in the United States, I think it will just bring us closer, the Somali community, despite wherever we are. You know, we are basically facing this challenge together.

17:29And I don't know if you have seen the laughable memes on social media. How Somali is all about it. And so basically, they will have a very good sense of humor. So basically, that is how we adapt. What are the memes? Somalis were promised 3 ,000 years ago in Minnesota, apparently. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we're a very funny nation, people. Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I think you can't really separate the Somali identity without the Muslim identity. And I think parts of that, you're going to face levels of discrimination or just even overt racism in parts. And I think that's something that you kind of grow to understand, but also to combat and not just accept, whether it's from a political official or even just in your everyday life.

18:19And I think that's something that the Somali global identity has been growing more resilient. And as Fadimah beautifully put, like this challenges like this bring us closer together. And over the past couple of years, there's been a growing global movement of just more and more integration as a global diaspora, where there is now global networks that connect each other. And I think that's one of the beautiful things that come out of unfortunate situations is that we collectively come together. And whether it's through humour, whether it's through organising, whether it's through support groups, there's some level of combating any level of discrimination that happens globally.

18:53Mohamed, Hesham and Fadumo. As we've been hearing, Somalia faces plenty of challenges, including corruption and insurgencies from the Islamic militant group Al-Shabaab. There are pockets of violence in parts of the country, but compared to the situation 20 years ago, it is now relatively stable. So what's it like to live there? Abdullahi and Abdurrahim are both lecturers at Somali National University in the capital Mogadishu. And Abdallah works in banking in Somaliland. That's a breakaway territory north of Somalia. It's safe, stable, just had a few years ago elections. So normal day-to-day life without much of a disruption, a relatively growing business, a hustling community from rural areas all the way to the cities, bustling cities with a growing number of entrepreneurs and businesses.

19:47The same goes to Magdishu and the rest of the country at large. As a banker dealing with international banks, the country at large has had, of course, previously had some issues, political and security issues. But I can generally say that security has much improved where we are in Somalia particularly. It's quite safe, relatively safe. There's no place where people cannot go. It's quite open spaces, safe and secure. I'd like to turn to Abdullahi in Mogadishu, lecturing at Somali National University. What do you like to take people to see in Mogadishu? There are a lot of places, James, to take, for example, tourists when they get a chance, you know, to come to Mogadishu, the capital of Somali.

20:36For example, the little beach, sandy beach, very beautiful. the Sita peach also very nice where people enjoy you see Stability is good everything is you know stable there is not any kais here there is not any as we had you know many many years ago but today Somalia is stable safe and sound I took them for example to Little Peach beautiful you know and they eat fresh fish different kinds you know kingfish something like that tuna and I would take them for example to you know Dar es Salaam village where there is, let me say that, it looks like a circus where people, especially in the western Kansas, enjoy.

21:18It's something fantastic today. There are a lot of places that I can take them to any visitor who can get a chance to come to Megadishu, the capital. What's the most popular thing that people in Somalia like to do? In some countries it's football. In other countries it's basketball. Is there a national sport? Certainly, there are a number of traditional sports, traditional activities that people enjoy doing. And Somalis are known to be entrepreneurs, known for a wide range of business activities wherever they go, wherever they travel to. The Somalis are unique in culture, in East African communities, unique in quite a number of other activities.

22:03You may name Mo Farah to be an Englishman, but the Somali. He won four Olympic gold medals. Of course, of course. We may reclaim that. So for you, are those four gold medals, do they belong to Somalia? That may be a debate between Somalia and India. Maybe the British, but definitely Somali. Born in this part of the country, in Somaliland. So yeah, why not? In addition to that, Somalis are known to be very famous with the poems and poetry. It's a cultural inheritance in East Africa, and generally in Africa and in the Middle East. We're known for these very articulate poems in history making when it comes to the articulation of traditional historians.

22:53Somalis are known for quite a number of things globally. Very unique talent when it comes to businesses. As a banker, what we normally see, and it is just a routine day, business hustling from ground all the way to startups, to big corporations. Somalis are known to be quite resilient when it comes to disasters and all of these other climate changes, what you currently call the climate change. What is your favourite line of Somali poetry? I may quote a number of favourite poetry online from our grandfathers. Hadrawi is one of them, very known for his well-articulated lines of poems, and particularly when he's describing the mother, when he's describing the woman, the generosity and the power of a woman.

23:42A very unique way of putting together how the Somali woman is able to, or maybe different from the rest of the population. They're great winners. To be frank, the mothers, Somali women are very powerful, very intelligent, Farid Karim, we're known for that. And that is quite obvious. I think one of the remarks from Donald Trump originated from what he had with Ilhan Omar, known for her courage and well-spoken. Abdullahi, Abdirahim and Abdallah in Somalia. Our thanks to them and to all of our guests this week for sharing their thoughts and experiences. I'm James Reynolds. You've been listening to The Documentary from the BBC World Service.

24:34I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom, and the trading floor. That's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive. But even though I've got questions, join me, Merrin's Upset Web, every week for my show, Merrin Talks Money, from Bloomberg Podcasts, where I have in-depth conversations with fund managers, strategists, and experts about how markets really work. And join me for a separate episode where I answer listener questions on how to make those markets work for you. Follow Merrin Talks Money on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.