Turkey on trial: Can courts control a nation?

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0:57Ekrem İmamoğlu:Thanks for choosing to listen to a Simon on the documentary podcast from the BBC World Service. I've worked as a correspondent covering Turkey for years and live in Istanbul. I've seen how the legal net is widening here. Opposition mayors, journalists and increasingly performers and entertainers are finding themselves on trial. The government insists its courts are simply applying the law and the judiciary is independent. But critics say President Erdogan is using the courtroom to silence dissent and tighten his grip after two decades in power. I've been investigating how Turkey's justice system came to work this way and what's left of freedom of speech.

1:42Ekrem İmamoğlu:Oh my goodness, I cannot believe how many police there is. Is this normal? These are normal.

1:53Can I ask why you came today? I'm Daria. I'm here to support Deniz and demand his release because it is actually illegal what they are doing to Deniz. It is not illegal to make jokes. It is not illegal to say what you believe. It is not illegal to make some jokes as a comedian.

2:13Ekrem İmamoğlu:I'm outside Istanbul's main courthouse. It's a large multi-storey complex with a vast marble atrium connecting endless corridors. These days, it feels more like a prison surrounded by metal barricades and a ring of police. I've come here a lot over the years, following court cases in Turkey, and the cast of people appearing keeps widening. Opposition mayors, students, and today, a popular comedian called Deniz Guktas.

2:45Ekrem İmamoğlu:They are chanting freedom for art, freedom for humour and freedom for Deniz. A month earlier, Deniz was on stage.

2:56Ekrem İmamoğlu:He looks small at the front of an outdoor amphitheatre in Istanbul. He's dressed in black beside a giant model of his own severed head, backed by lavish red curtains. The 32-year-old pokes fun at Turkey's president Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who's ruled the country now for 23 years.

3:18Ekrem İmamoğlu:In one joke, Deniz compares Erdogan to a grumpy neighbour and describes how he's evolved from a shy dictator to one who is at peace with his own identity. For 90 minutes, he takes aim at everything. Society, religion, the jailed opposition, the kind of material that in today's Turkey gets you in trouble. He even laughs about that culture of fear. All was fine until his show was posted online. First the authorities here tried to block clips of it, citing national security. It didn't stop it going viral. It had struck a nerve with Turkish society. Millions of people are completely disappointed, hopeless and sad.

4:00What's happening to the country? A sharp regime change, full of oppression. We are on a survival mode in our daily lives, struggling to pay our rents, pay our bills to study. And Denis Goktas gives all our feelings and problems in his jokes. He spoke for a lot of what young people are feeling right now. Exactly, exactly. He became a symbol of the youth now.

4:27Ekrem İmamoğlu:Not everyone found the jokes funny. Many found them outright offensive. and the chief prosecutor's office said hundreds of complaints were filed. I asked Daria, one of his supporters, about that. Yes, offensive joke, but it is a joke. It was not insulting the religious people, it was not insulting the religion, it was not insulting the ordinary people's rights or beliefs. But I believe he's now in the court because he called Ardon openly as authoritarian. leaders. That is the main case.

5:11Ekrem İmamoğlu:When I saw the clips online, I got hold of his number and I sent Deniz a text asking him for an interview. I'm not sure he ever read it and I suspected there might not be much time anyway before he'd be arrested.

5:28Ekrem İmamoğlu:I'm Emily Wither and for assignment I'm in Turkey. I've been living and working in the country for years, and I've seen firsthand how the fight for this often polarised country's future is playing out in its courts. This is a story of three courtrooms recorded across one summer. I've covered hundreds of opposition politicians who are facing legal battles or are in jail here. And increasingly, it's not just the political opposition. It's anyone who challenges the government's idea of how the country should be and how its people should behave.

6:09Ekrem İmamoğlu:On July 2nd, Denis Guttash was arrested, and the very next day I was at the courthouse. Inside, supporters of the comedian crowded the corridor to hear the ruling. They're told Denis will be held in jail as he waits for a trial. The charge is insulting the president and publicly inciting hatred and hostility. He's not alone. Almost 59 ,000 people are under investigation in Turkey for insulting the president or the state. That's according to Justice Ministry figures published in March this year. More than 800 of them are children. The crowd have now come out of the court. They've walked down six flights of stairs with huge numbers of police trailing them.

6:59Ekrem İmamoğlu:There is a lot of anger here, a lot of disappointment. Some other entertainers have been handed long suspended sentences, a warning not to re-offend. Others face travel bans. Outside the court, I meet an actor who was subject to one. My name is Cem Yiğit Üzümoglu. A year and a half ago, I was here inside where now Deniz is waiting in a car. I am also in the board member of the Actors Union of Turkey. and a year and a half ago we have been protesting, making announcements for the protest and the ongoing situation in Turkey. So that's why I became a target. Without committing any crime, they tried to create a crime and they are still trying.

7:44The court is still on, but there is no result yet.

7:47Ekrem İmamoğlu:Do people have trust in the judicial system in Turkey? Do they trust that the trials here are free and fair? No, I don't think people trust. no one can trust. Because the judicial system is a tool of the government to oppress people. That's how they are using it. I asked Daria how she feels about the ruling. I'm angry. I'm simply angry because they try to feel everybody insecure in this way. They are trying to give a psychological war over society. So it's not surprising, but we will not normalize this. Thousands of people are in jail in Turkey, including political leaders and journalists. Tomorrow I can be jailed.

8:42Hi, nice to meet you. Morning.

8:45Ekrem İmamoğlu:How are you doing? It's very early the following Monday morning, and I'm off to another court case, the most well-known of all of them. The long journey from one side of Istanbul to the other begins crossing continents, from Asia to Europe by ferry. Yeah, good, thanks. Tired.

9:08Ekrem İmamoğlu:Furkan Kanube is a Turkish court reporter. He's heading to the court too, and I've brought a translator.

9:18Today, Imamoglu has three cases.

9:21Ekrem İmamoğlu:So he's in court on three separate charges today? Yes. We should probably go through, actually. It looks like the boat is nearly here. You might recognise that name, Ekrem İmamoğlu, the opposition's popular mayor of Istanbul. His arrest in March 2025 sparked mass protests across Turkey. Since then, he's been in prison facing charges from corruption to espionage. with prosecutors seeking sentences that add up to more than 2 ,000 years. He's also Erdogan's main rival. Polls suggest Imamoglu is the most likely candidate to defeat the current president. His arrest was part of a wider crackdown on the opposition that swept up hundreds of people.

10:11Ekrem İmamoğlu:I'm on my way to hear Imamoglu's defence. Furkan covers these cases every day. After the ferry we board a minibus to take us to the most remote district on the far western edge of the city Critics say it's no coincidence Imamoglu's trial is so hard to get to The government says it's simply that the prison has big enough courtrooms It's Europe's largest high security jail and is surrounded by barbed wire and fields of cheery sunflowers Outside a checkpoint are several courtrooms, which is where we're dropped off. This is Silivri. And three times I've been here. You've been held in here three times?

10:56Yes.

10:57Ekrem İmamoğlu:Lawyers and journalists covering these cases are often arrested too, including Furkan. He's been detained several times for publicly spreading disinformation. He switches to Turkish. I stayed here three times. One of them was seven months. At this point I considered this place like my home. Nearly 40 ,000, 50 ,000 people stays here. we have one room cells here. People stay in their rooms, small rooms. They also have bigger rooms and there are around 40 people. But now the population is so much in the prison. There are 70, 80 people staying. And some of them are on the sleeps next to the restrooms or they are on the ground.

11:51So it's over-prepated really. You are either super lonely or you have to stay with 80 people in one room.

12:01Ekrem İmamoğlu:Over the years, I've seen many journalists arrested here for doing their jobs, and most of the media is now state-controlled. I asked Furkan, who works for one of the very few remaining Turkish independent media outlets, how the cases are being covered. The government-aligned media basically looks out for what judges are saying. But us, as an independent, we look what the lawyers are saying, what proof is there, what kind of documents we can show. That's our difference. Should we go in? I probably have to put this away.

12:48Ekrem İmamoğlu:We go through security and inside it's sterile, crowded and chaotic. A small cafeteria serves tea and toast. The police block the doors as seats quickly fill up and supporters of the jailed mayor spill into the corridor. The first hearing of the day has just wrapped up. You're not allowed to record inside the court. When Imamoglu arrived, he had a big smile on his face and there was a standing ovation from the supporters that had crowded into the small courtroom to watch the proceedings. There was a huge round of applause and many of them were chanting President İmamoğlu. He told the court, how did the judiciary system in Turkey come to look like this?

13:38Ekrem İmamoğlu:İmamoğlu faces at least five separate cases plus further investigations. The one I just heard is an espionage case where he's accused of sharing the details of millions of Istanbul residents with foreign intelligence services. Among the crowd, observers from foreign governments also file out of the court. I grabbed the European Parliament rapporteur for Turkey, Nacho Sanchez Amor. Turkey insists that its judicial system is independent, that the courts are free and fair and that they are following the rule of law. you've come here to observe these cases. What do you make of that? There is no any hint of independent judiciary in Turkey.

14:19Not any hint. I have the list of the judge that has been removed only in the cases of Imamoglu, meaning if a judge acts independently, professionally, he's going to be punished. There are so many cases. There are so many examples.

14:37Ekrem İmamoğlu:It's really hard to find a judge to speak to you. In fact, in general, it's getting harder to interview anyone in Turkey, such as the fear of being publicly critical. To understand how the courts are run now, I need to take you back to 2017. That year, Erdogan won a referendum that reshaped the constitution. Out went the parliamentary system, in came an all-powerful presidency. Erdogan said it would replace unstable coalition governments with decisive one-man leadership. It handed him sweeping new powers, including over the courts. The board that hires and disciplines every judge and prosecutor, the HSK, was radically overhauled.

15:22Ekrem İmamoğlu:And now the president picks some of its members, and a parliament run by Erdogan's political party picks the rest. This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. You know when people try on new food and suddenly it's like, wait. That's the reaction a lot of people are having when they first try Kewpie mayo. It's the one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. You've probably seen it in the grocery store before. And if you've ever just walked past it, some people would say that's a huge mistake.

15:58Because this mayo is different. Most mayonnaise uses whole eggs. Kewpie only uses egg yolks, which gives it this rich umami flavor. It's smoother, deeper, and almost buttery. Once people try it, they start putting it on everything. Egg sandwiches, fries, burgers. Some fans even swear by dipping pizza crust in it. And once you notice it, you start seeing it everywhere. Chefs use it. Restaurants use it. People who really care about flavor use it. Never tried it? Grab the bottle with the red cap next time you're at the store. Put it on just about anything. Then you'll understand. QP, the original Japanese mayonnaise.

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17:36Ekrem İmamoğlu:This is the documentary from the BBC World Service. I'm Emily Wither on assignment in Turkey. So we're definitely recording. Is everybody ready? Are you ready, Aisha? How's it going? How's it going? Okay, to mum. I think your connection is okay. I did manage to track down a retired judge who was willing to be interviewed. Aisha Sarazou-Palavan was a judge for more than three decades and now works as an independent lawyer in the coastal city of Izmir. When the 2017 changes were introduced, she criticised them in a newspaper interview and learnt the hard way that disagreeing with the government has consequences.

18:19At the time I gave that interview, I was the General Secretary of the Judges' Union and a national newspaper had requested an interview from me to explain the consequences of this constitutional amendment on the judiciary. Everything I said has really come true, step by step. I said that appointments and authorizations in judiciary would all be done based on politics. Because the judiciary is really being used in the country to change and regulate society. But that's not its fundamental duty.

18:55Ekrem İmamoğlu:It's to restore peace in society and it's based on the rule of law. A disciplinary investigation was immediately opened against Aisha. And she was eventually hit with a penalty. She wasn't paid for several weeks. She decided to fight it. I took that salary deduction penalty to the European Court of Human Rights. Finally, they ruled my human rights had been violated. But despite that ruling, my requests were rejected every time. In other words, they didn't implement the ruling. But I still stand by what I said and what I went through shows that every sentence I uttered turned out to be the correct observation.

19:37That's why the investigations were carried out in order to pull people like me out of the field,