Ukraine after four years of war

0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. If there was a big red button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life. And all the bizarre ways people are using the internet. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

1:03Mir Ventinaru, the fifth floor, Irena Taranyukto. Matupatu, Nandi. This is the fifth floor, at the heart of global storytelling with BBC journalists from all around the world. I'm your host, Irena Taranyuk.

1:26This coming week sees the fourth anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, According to Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky, more than 50 ,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed in this war, with the total confirmed number of Ukrainian lives lost, soldier and civilian combined, amounting to more than 70 ,000. Russia's death toll is estimated to stand at over 160 ,000 killed. Talks in Abu Dhabi earlier this year and in Geneva aimed at bringing an end to this war did not produce a hoped-for breakthrough. With me in the fifth-floor studio is my colleague Vitaly Shevchenko, Russia's editor at BBC Monitoring and presenter of BBC's Ukrainecast.

2:12I began by asking him whether, if we cast our minds back to that dawn on the 24th of February 2022, when Russian columns started moving into Ukraine from three directions, north, east and south, he ever could have imagined that the war would still be ongoing. I really don't know, Rena. It was such a punch in the face that I didn't really think about how long the attack would continue. I remember that morning very well, until the very last moment, I was hoping that it wasn't going to happen. It was so off the scale. Surely not. And then at four o 'clock in the morning, I got a phone call from my mother in Zaporizhia who said that there were explosions and the whole building was shaking.

3:08And then the, well, I guess the adrenaline kicked in and this has lasted almost four years, four years now. And it's been one day at a time all these four years. Is there any sense that the end is looming, the end of the war is anywhere near? I would argue that the opposite is true. what we are seeing is the unspeakable being normalised right in front of our eyes. The whole world is getting accustomed to the daily horror and fundamental injustice of war and all that accompanies it. It's not just about Ukraine. The objectives that Russia is pursuing in Ukraine undermine the fundamental principles of international law.

4:12Things like you can't threaten force to put pressure on other countries to take bits of their territory by force. The irony is that Russia started attacking and demolishing and destroying the cities that are closer to it culturally, Russian-speaking cities of Ukraine's east and south. You come from Zaporizhia. You know that majority of people there were very much at ease with their Russian language. They spoke Russian. And yet these cities, the russified belt of eastern and southern Ukraine, were targeted by Russian bombs and occupied by Russian forces. That's why many people I know have a huge issue with what's going on in Ukraine being described as a conflict.

5:07The fact is that many Ukrainians, especially in the southeast, had accepted Russian culture, Russian way of living, maybe. And it's not a situation when there was growing tension between two peoples, which became a conflict that had to be resolved through negotiation. No, we had a country that was hugely influenced by Russia, to a huge extent being OK with it. And then there was attack, despite being very friendly towards Russia. I would like us to go back to what you said at the beginning about adrenaline kick that we had at the start of the war and how it still keeps us and Ukrainians going as a society.

5:53Because what I remember very distinctly, how the shock, the initial shock, was replaced by this sort of euphoric feeling that Ukraine is not losing. And then the Ukrainian so-called meme army joined in the war effort. And memes and humor kept many Ukrainians sane. The birth of a new phenomenon, war humor. And that was a distinction of the first year of the war. Ukrainians, wherever they were, felt pride. Pride in their armed forces, pride in the fact that they're not losing. What is also obvious is that regional identity is also very strong. And I would like us to listen to a stand-up comedian from Kharkiv.

6:50It's a guy called Dmitro Tütjun, Dmitro Tobacco. In 2023, he was getting big laughs for some home truths about Kharkiv. We have to explain what he's talking about to non-Ukrainian people. The first thing he says is that it's not the done thing in Kharkiv to like other cities. Look at Kiev, it's dirty. Meanwhile, in Kharkiv, we've got rubbish bins, it's clean, we've got park benches. And I think it just highlights the very strong identity of Kharkiv. Maybe our listeners will know by now that it's Ukraine's second city after Kiev in terms of size. and tragically it's been relentlessly pounded by Russia.

7:39It's just a stone's throw away from the border with Russia. The subject of wartime humour, the stand-up comedy scene in Ukraine is burgeoning and I think the reason for it is because this kind of humour about the sound drones make, about how you're hiding in the basement or in your bathroom, it decatastrophises. This is one word I learnt over the past four years, decatastrophizing the war. It makes it easier for Ukrainians to deal with this immense horror happening at the worst time of their lives. If you can laugh at it, it's not that scary. And what I found interesting is that despite being, as you say, stones throw from Russia, about 30 kilometers, and despite being the first city to have encountered Russian bombardment in February 2022, Kharkiv still preserves this very distinct sense of civic pride.

8:43And a native Kharkivian, Victoria Kalimbet, told me about what she feels about her native city. A couple of days ago we spoke and we actually spoke on the day when Kharkiv encountered one of the worst bombardments. Here's what she had to say. First thing that comes to my mind, Kharkiv is tired. Kharkiv is really tired. You can see that, that after almost four years of full-scale Russian invasion, Kharkivians are just tired. But at the same time, they are amazing people. And I think Kharkiv is built around these beautiful people who are, despite being tired and really exhausted sometimes, they're still united.

9:27I think one thing for me that describes Kharkiv the most is community feeling of community which is very very strong this is community of journalists volunteers military i feel like everyone knows everyone and it is beautiful and people used to say that you know how the problem is solved in harkiv we just meet for five minutes and it's solved already so yeah i think this describes harkiv the best and to To understand Kharkiv's importance, one has to mention its proximity to Russia. How close Kharkiv is to Russia? Yes, it's about 30 to 40 kilometers away. So, yeah, it is very close. Rockets, they fly too quick.

10:19Drones fly too quick. You don't have too many time to go to the nearest shelter even. And it is hard. It is hard for people to live in such conditions. When the war started, you found yourself in Poland and you went back to Kharkiv and now you are in Kiev. Can you just tell us about your movements after the Russian full-scale invasion? yeah of course i was in poland yes i was working in the tv station polsat news and of course i wanted to go back immediately but i was the only person in my family left who still had a job so my parents kindly asked me to stay there but later it was summer 2023 i had an opportunity to go to Ukraine to work with our war correspondent on Donbass.

11:13So I saw all the places which are sadly occupied now. So I stayed. I just couldn't go back. Did you notice how other Ukrainians from other cities, other regions of Ukraine treat you guys from Kharkiv? What is the attitude towards your native city? Oh, we for sure get special treatment. When people hear that, oh, you're from Kharkiv, they somehow get scared, get concerned, and they want to know how do you feel today? How are your relatives? Are you staying in Kharkiv? And so on. But at the same time, the funny part is that we, I think, in a way, Harkivians are asking for special treatment when we talk about our city so much.

12:01We can talk about it for hours and we're pretty much bragging about it. We're telling people that it is the cleanest, it is the most beautiful city. So, yeah, I think people around Ukraine do know about our very unique kind of love to our city. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service. If there was a big red button that would just demolish the internet, I would smash that button with my forehead. From the BBC, this is The Interface, the show that explores how tech is rewiring your week and your world. This isn't about quarterly earnings or about tech reviews. It's about what technology is actually doing to your work, your politics, your everyday life, and all the bizarre ways people are using the internet.

12:54Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

13:01This is The Fifth Floor, and I'm Irena Taraniuk. You know, when we started talking about life in Kharkiv under war, Kharkiv was the first major city of Ukraine to actually face off the Russian columns, military columns back in 2022. And also Kharkiv was the city where Ukrainians showed huge resilience and, as you say, started returning to the city despite the war. How has the war affected this sense of pride in their city? Oh, yes. Now Kharkiv, we call it concrete fortress, right? It is a frontier city. And I think Kharkivians are very proud of Kharkiv's brigades, famous brigades who fought not only around Kharkiv region, but they defended also Donetsk, Sumer regions, Zaporizhia.

13:59they were anywhere in Ukraine. So yeah, I think that no matter what, we're still here, we still work, we still deliver. Oh, yeah. In the West, in Europe, even in London, people always are surprised that the city under constant bombardment recovers so quickly. How quickly municipal services restore everything after Russian attacks. Can you explain how they do it? I cannot. It is amazing. It is amazing. They work really hard. They work in the summer when it's 40 degrees outside. They work now when it's minus 25 degrees outside. And they work after the bombardments, after the strikes. And when you talk to these people, they are very stoic.

14:52They are just doing their job. But I wonder, what do they feel after watching so many tragedies and after so many nights, after so many crashed windows and buildings? Yeah. Life goes on and the city must be cleaned. Yeah. Yeah. And it is clean. Sometimes you just forget that there was a strike. It is so clean. Yeah. Culturally, Russian influences were permeating the life in Kharkiv. But can you tell us how Kharkivites are dealing with this duality, if you want, Ukrainian patriotism and identity on the one side and cultural influences by Russia and industrial influences from Russia on the other side?

15:40It is very complicated because, you know, I am as a person who needs to somehow combine this Russian influenced past with my Ukrainian roots. I need to find this Ukrainian roots. I need to build my whole culture from zero. And it takes a lot of work, I think. And not everybody is ready to do that. And it is painful. Sometimes it is painful just to realize that you don't have a past somehow. When you abandon this Russian-influenced past, you lose it. You lose it. So I think it is very hard, like psychologically. But at the same time, it is amazing watching young people who are coming to concerts of old bands from west of Ukraine, which weren't previously even known in Kharkiv, which didn't even come to Kharkiv before.

16:46And now this young girl, 17 to 20 years old, they're dancing. They are learning Ukrainian literature. They are coming to museums. They are trying to discover what is ours, right? And I try to do the same. And I think a lot of Harkivians do the same. If you were to go to Harkiv now, how much Ukrainian versus Russian would you hear on the streets of the city? You know, you still hear more Russian language on the streets of Harkiv. But for me, in my social bubble, right, I hear more Ukrainian. All the Kharkivians I meet, and I have amongst them a number of colleagues and acquaintances, and I even count them, some friends amongst them, they're hugely proud of their city.

17:36And so what is the secret? Is it the place? Is it the people? Is it the community? and why would you want people from abroad come to Kharkiv and visit Kharkiv after the war? For me, yes, it's definitely community. Community is something that is in ultimate Kharkiv style and I know that after the full-scale invasion there are very little people left in the city and those who stayed in Kharkiv, they stayed for a reason right maybe some some of them froze for sure but a lot of them stayed for a reason to to help to help military to help eldest to help children and so on and so on so i think it is very important to be in a place when you have something to say you can do something to help when you are an important part, when you can make a difference, right?

18:43And Kharkiv is a place where you can make a difference. Thank you so much, Victoria, for sharing your love for Kharkiv and for sharing your personal story about being a Kharkivian wherever you live. Thank you. Thank you so much for giving me the space. Well, that was Victoria Kalimbertov, BBC Ukrainian. Vitaly, you come from Zaporizhia. And I have to say that before the war, I used to brag a lot about coming from the most beautiful part of Ukraine, which is Western Ukraine, Galicia, Lviv. and I would be trying to entice my English friends to come and visit and see Gothic, Baroque, neoclassical architecture and cobbled streets of old Lviv bearing traces of Austrian influences, Polish influences.

19:36But now I am just telling people, come to Ukraine. And, well, I'm sure that you are also a big patriot of your native part of Ukraine, the land of Cossacks, Zaporizhia, right? Lviv is beautiful. However, you've not lived until you've seen the sunsets of Zaporizhia. The vast industrial expanse of its industrial district, Balakishko, it's like a spaceport with different coloured lights and chimney stacks and smoke billowing from all bits of it. Very bad for health. It's the Dnipro River, huge, extremely wide, right in the middle of Zaporizhia, a huge nature reserve there, Hordice. The cliffs, unscalable, there's a Buddhist temple there as well, Dalinist baroque architecture.

20:31Whatever your interest is, you'll find it there. Okay, sold. I think that people will want to come and see Zaporizhia. but I wanted to talk to you about your investigation about the house in which you grew up where your grandma lived you managed to find out that actually not only is the village under occupation but the home of your childhood is also being taken over by Russians I think so I have reason to believe that there's a Russian military base there so one Friday evening here at our headquarters of the BBC before going home I thought I'd have a quick look at satellite imagery of my home village just, you know, nostalgic stuff and I saw that there was a new road leading right into my house where I grew up and given that it's a pretty dangerous place and most people are keen to leave the village whoever could, they did and whoever couldn't, they're trying to stay indoors was because of all the drones and, well, it's front line.

21:39And suddenly there's a proper road. So who could that be? And I spoke to our colleagues from BBC Verify and we commissioned more pictures and we noticed that the road got more use when it got colder and wetter. So we think it's soldiers who are sort of getting warm and finding shelter in the house when the weather is not too good. You didn't have any confirmation that it was actually Russians. Was it just a gas game? Well, the Russians are not going to answer any questions. And the locals, whenever you approach someone from, you know, local and you say, well, I'm from media. Oh, no, go away. I'm not talking to you because it's dangerous.

22:22You can get killed for speaking to the media. All this love of your local city made me think that four years of the war changed the society so much and the demographics so much. Men fighting, women alone. What I would like us to talk about is how dating scene has changed in Ukraine. And Natalia Petrikeyeva, my colleague from Ukraine, has been investigating. And here's what she found.

23:00Dating has changed since the start of the full-scale invasion in Ukraine. Women divide into two groups. One of them want to date with soldiers and the other don't want. All of them have their own reasons for that. Some women want to date with soldiers because they feel safe with them. They feel like they share the responsibility and defending Ukraine in the wartime with these people. They have to understand that they can see their loved one maybe two times a year for 15-17 days. It's not very safe to come to the frontline cities to see soldiers, But women often do this. And there are a lot of stories and photos from these cities when the train full of young women and older women who come to these cities to see their loved one.

24:09And it's very heartbreaking when they say goodbye to each other. Some women, the fact that men don't serve is a fact of attraction because she can see him every day and doesn't have anxiety. At the same time, these women, they say that they can't go outside. They say that they can see each other only in the house. Some of them who started their relations before the full-scale invasion, they say if they find the partner now, they will choose a soldier. Some of them even divorced or break their relations with men who don't serve or who don't volunteer for the army. Some soldiers don't want to have any relationship because they don't have time and strength for this.

25:13Some of them say that they feel that women don't want to have any relation with them because they don't want to wait. And they think that soldiers have PTSD or something like that. 20 % of Ukrainian army is female. Many veterans and servicewomen say that it's difficult for them to form any relationship with civilians because they have very different life experience and values. And they prefer partners with military backgrounds who share a similar understanding of war. I think that the topic about serving will be important for Ukrainian society for a long time. Natalia Patrykeyeva from BBC Ukrainian and her article, the title of her article is Relationship with a Military Man or a Draft Dodger?

26:14How the search for a partner changed during the war. What do you feel is the impact of this distorted demography on the future of Ukraine? Distorted is the word, Irena. It's another example of how abnormal war is. And it affects people in a million ways. There's a shortage of men who are eligible, bachelors if you like, in Ukraine. So many are fighting, so many women are abroad, their children with them, and who knows if they will return. The Ukrainian population is ageing for that reason. All sorts of age divides, ideological divides as well. Should I be in Ukraine at a time like this? Should I be safe abroad?

27:13Should I return? And when this is over, Ukraine will have to do a lot of work to put this awful past behind it. Thank you, Vitaly. Vitaly Shevchenko, editor from the BBC Monitoring and a presenter of Ukrainecast in the Fifth Floor studio. Thank you.

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