Undocumented migrants in the USA

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1:55as the government steps up its efforts against illegal immigration. Great honour to be deep in Florida, the Florida Everglades, to open America's newest migrant detention centre. It's incredibly built and you're seeing that yourself. That's why I said let the press join us on our walk so they can see what's happening. President Trump, during a tour of what's been called Alligator Alcatraz, the US's newest migrant detention centre, surrounded by wetlands, The facility is designed to hold up to 3 ,000 detainees. You might have seen some of the memes on social media about it, posted by some of the president's supporters.

2:31Photos of alligators in ICE baseball caps, ICE being the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency. Donald Trump campaigned hard against illegal immigration ahead of the presidential election, and he promised voters a major crackdown if they backed him. And since he came to power, the president has issued executive orders to fortify the country's borders, and suspend the entry of undocumented migrants. He's also vowed to oversee the largest deportation programme in American history, with criminals and gang members prioritised in raids. So what is it like to live in America throughout all of this, without legal status?

3:08Our guests this week all came to the US as children, as we'll discuss later. It wasn't a choice they made. We've agreed to protect their identities, so we won't reveal what states they're living in. So let me introduce you to Jane, Angela and Juanita, who came to the US from El Salvador. I was 14 by the time that my parents decided to come here due to circus deaths in our country. There was a lot of political violence towards my father and there was a lot of gang members. There was a situation where our lives were at risk and my parents decided to move to the United States. And the main reason why they decided to move here is because this is where they had a family.

3:49We didn't really have another country to go to. Most of my dad's family is here in the United States and some of my mom's family as well. So when we immigrated, you know, we had to cross Mexico and Guatemala and we crossed the border. We did have to cross the river. We crossed in like a little floaty where everybody got wet. The guy that crossed us told us, you know, you should start walking and you'll find immigration there. And that's what we did. It was a bunch of us who started walking and were greeted by some ICE officers who took our documentation and took us to the detention center. We landed in San Antonio, Texas in 1989.

4:34My mom was able to obtain a tourist visa and she promised us she was going to take us to Disney World. The funny thing is here that I ended up taking my mother to Disney World in my mid-30s. But yeah, we landed in San Antonio. My grandpa drove to pick us up and then we ended up living in the South here in the United States. And I've lived here ever since. I remember back when I started kindergarten, I was the only Latina in my classroom. I was the only person that spoke Spanish. So I had a really difficult time assimilating, right, to the culture, to the language. It was a culture shock for me.

5:11I remember that I got in trouble because I needed to go to the restroom and I didn't know how to say it. I ended up using my cubby as a restroom. And my mom told me that that was a shifting moment for me because I learned English in six months. I didn't find out I wasn't documented until I was 18. I got accepted to my dream university and we went to registration. We went to go choose my dorm, my classes. And then when we got to the financial aid office, he started asking me for all of these documents that I didn't have. And that's when I realized, oh, I'm undocumented. And this is what it means.

5:50I ended up going to a local college, which is fine. And that's kind of like reality from the day that I turned 18 until today. This is what it means to be undocumented. This is what a simple plastic piece of paper can be avoided if I just had that. I arrived here when I was 10 going on 11. I essentially, you know, entered middle school here, went on to high school. And then by the time I was a senior in high school, and the whole thing of like applying for colleges, you know, like, think about your future, started applying for colleges. And then that's when I found out that we had overstayed. That was pretty interesting because, you know, when you're 16 or 17, like that's like the last thing you would know about, right?

6:38Like how immigration works and what a visa is, right? And how many different types of visa there are and what it means to be undocumented. It's like pretty much having the rug pulled underneath you, right? Or like when you're taking like a really nice nap and then somebody like awakens you with like a cold bucket of ice, right? That's what it felt like. by then I was accepted to the college that I wanted to go to and then I had to take a gap year because they would have charged me an international student tuition fee right which was like double triple the amount I was like I don't have that kind of money so I took a gap year and I started working I was getting paid cash at like different restaurants and then finally I was able to collect enough to afford my first semester of college after that gap year yeah since then I've been kind of advocating for myself.

7:28I've been learning a lot about different immigration policies, what it means to be undocumented, and how can I continue to advocate for myself, right? Because it's kind of hard to stand up for yourself when there's a funny man in office who's like out to get you, right, for some reason. Can you explain for me, all of you, what it is like to live as an undocumented migrant in the United States? Like as much as you can, how does that differ from the life and experience of a US citizen or someone with a green card? Does it change your approach to how you live, where you live, what you do for work, dealing with friends and, you know, officialdom, any kind of officials?

8:04I have a mixed status family. So what that means is that some of us are undocumented and some of us have a green card or are US citizens. And the dynamic is really different. My brother, who is a US citizen and a registered voter, he went to the border to vacation. He's able to travel freely and I can no longer travel because I don't have a real ID. Before this administration, I could move freely as much as I wanted to get on an airplane, drive everywhere. And now the urge of there's something happening in California. I really want to go, but I can't because I'm held back. That's been something that's just a shocking reality.

8:53And not just from this moment, but from the time that I've been here. There's always things that I'm really hyped up about and I'm really excited to do. And then, like Dana said, the bucket of cold water hits you and you're like, ah, I can't do it. My little brother can do a lot of things that I can't. And that's frustrating because it was just pure luck that he was born here. And it was pure luck that I was born in another country. But it's still a factor of what we do and how we do it. And we have to be careful. My parents have to work across state lines to another state. And it's fear that I have because we know that local law enforcement is working with ICE.

9:37So what happens if my mom and dad are detained going to work? What happens if I have to go to the Capitol and I get detained? My little brother doesn't ever have to worry about that because he's protected. Right. I apologize. I'm getting emotional. But but that's that's a reality. And things if things don't change that, you know, we're still going to be living under those circumstances in that uncertainty. And it's just simply not fair because some buffoon decided to take on and demonize us and put us in a bucket where we're evil people. And it's not it's simply not true. Some of us just want to live.

10:17what Angela is saying it's it's resonating with me heavily I don't think anybody should have to live in like fear or limbo right and many of us are many of us are including me we are living in fear and limbo because simply because of like how we arrived because at the end of the day it's like we're here like we just want to live a normal happy life right we're not really out we're not out here, like, you know, causing like damages and fear into other people. And I really do just think that like a humane immigration system needs to be a reality. I still do the same thing. I still contribute. I still pay my taxes on time.

10:57I'm working, right? I'm contributing to my community, to my society, yet I can't even access basic healthcare, right? When I get sick, I have to worry about the cost of me going to the hospital. So I'm like, okay, Google, like, I'll be Googling up my symptoms and then trying to come up with home remedies. Yeah. For me, it's like, I just want access to healthcare and I just want to live quiet, happy life. Like that's it, you know, with close to my loved ones. And it's hard to do that, you know, when there's a whole big administration that's like based on hate and like fear mongering and like try to divide people like us versus them, right?

11:36When in reality, it should be like us working together, everybody helping each other. Yeah, no, I want to second, you know, all of what they have also mentioned. I've been here for almost nine years without any status. You know, sometimes when your work permit expires, then you're going to have to wait until you renew it on time, but they don't send it on time. That means that you're able to lose the job that you're currently in and they just kind of let you go. And some people stay without jobs because they don't have their work permit. And, you know, you don't really have a date that your work permit is coming.

12:16You're kind of left in the limbo for whatever long the government wants to take to give your permit. So definitely it can be tricky. Juanita, Angela and Jane, more from them in a few minutes time. I mentioned a green card there. It's officially known as a permanent resident card. And unlike a temporary work visa, it allows you to live and work permanently in the US and is often a step to citizenship, which comes with the right to vote. Angela also talked about her brother being a US citizen. Now that's because he was born in the United States. Currently, if you're born on US territory, you automatically become a citizen.

12:50Although President Trump is trying to change that. You are listening to BBC OS Conversations from the BBC World Service with me, Luke Jones.

13:04Life's Less Ordinary is bringing you a special series of extraordinary love stories. Roshan Sethi was an uptight Canadian doctor who couldn't come out to his Indian family. Karansani was an actor from India who felt he had to keep his sexuality a secret to make it in Hollywood. But they met, fell in love, and things began to change. They decided to make a romantic comedy based on their relationship. Lives Less Ordinary Love Stories from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. We'll hear more from our conversation in a moment. First, though, let's hear from some supporters of President Trump who backed him and elected him on a mandate to tackle illegal immigration.

13:48My name is Michelle Connor and I live in western Pennsylvania. I strongly support President Trump's immigration policies And I believe that any person that is on U.S. soil illegally should be sent back to their home country. Every nation has the right to control its borders and determine who enters. When we ignore this and allow unlawful entry, it just sets a precedent that laws can be disregarded with zero consequence. It is also a tremendous strain on our public resources. We are spending hundreds of billions of dollars taking care of these illegal immigrants when so many Americans need this financial support.

14:37And of course, the biggest reason is that we have no idea who is on our soil now. And many of them are here, not because they want to assimilate into our culture, but because they want to erode and harm our citizens because they hate America. My name is Marcia and I am from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and I agree with Trump's immigration policy. He wants legal immigration and he does not like illegal immigration. And that is people just pouring over our borders where Biden administration allowed millions of people to come into the country. And some of them got away and we don't know who they are and they were not vetted.

15:26I feel bad for some of the people who came under the Biden administration and were allowed to be in the country. and now they're getting deported. But hopefully Trump is going to keep his word and allow you to apply and come back legally. And I hope he helps the farmers and the hotel workers who were here for several years, like 20 years, 30 years, and they have a good record, their employer like them. I hope there's some way to keep those people. There is some compassion there. and I look forward to see a middle ground. Thanks to Marcia and to Michelle for sending us those messages. We should say, though, that deportations are not unique to this Trump administration.

16:15According to figures from the Migration Policy Institute, President Biden carried out 1.5 million deportations during his four years in office, which is around the same as under President Trump's first term. During Barack Obama's first term, a total of 2.9 million people were deported. The Migration Policy Institute estimates that there are 11 million unauthorised immigrants currently living in the United States. And in recent weeks, immigration officials have increased the number they aim to arrest from around 660 a day to 3 ,000 a day. To do that, ICE agents have widened the net, targeting not just criminals, but workplaces such as farms, factories and car washes.

16:58So what does all this mean for our three guests? Juanita, Angela and Jane. I was undocumented and unafraid up until November of last year. Now it's I'm undocumented and I'm a little afraid. I spoke to my immigration attorney and he said, I need you to get rid of your social media. I need you to be as quiet and in the shadows as possible. I'm a community advocate, Luke, so I do a lot of advocacy around not only my state but around the country. So I've been a target many times. those threats have never gone or escalated. But this time is different. This time it really does feel different. I used to get on a megaphone and scream to my community, we have each other, we're safe, we're undocumented, we're unafraid.

17:46And now I'm not out in the protest. I'm not out trying to get rid of ICE from our communities. I'm stuck at home because I'm scared. I am now a priority. And I do want to make something super, super clear, Luke, is that some of us did go to college, but some of us didn't. So I want to make sure that those folks that didn't go to college are also uplifted because we are worth more than the economic impact that we provide. And also, we're not only farm workers and nannies and janitors. We have honorable, those are honorable jobs, but those are high skilled. So we also need to stop saying that those are low skilled work.

18:21But we're also lawyers and architects and doctors and nurses, construction professionals, executives. Some of us are living the lives that our parents dreamed of for us. How do you go to work every day and tell your community, tell your people, hey, we're going to be OK when you know in reality you're not? You know, I definitely second that, too, because I am a community advocate. I want to make my community better. I want to make sure that I'm contributing to my immigrant community, but also my community where I live. I want to make sure that I'm putting all of the things that I learned into practice.

18:58And there's a lot of misinformation and people are trying to put a lot of fear and discrimination among our folks. I'm the type of person that it's really hard for me to stay quiet. So I still go undercover to a few protests, but I'm definitely afraid because I think that now, you know, they're targeting people even by their looks. So something that I make sure that I do when I'm outside with my friends, I'm like, OK, y 'all, we cannot speak Spanish because, you know, I feel like we're going to get targeted. And I think I'm the only undocumented out of my friend group. So they understand that, you know, but sometimes I just feel like it's really sad that I have to take these precautions.

19:45It's really sad that that I cannot be myself. And I can imagine for the people that don't have an option, right? Like I work with many families and sometimes some of the parents are not able to take their kids to school because they're afraid, because there has been rumors that we have eyes in bus stops and they're like, well, my kid is now missing school because I don't feel safe. So it's definitely challenging. And the way that they are trying to oppress people, it's not okay. Do any of you ever get into debates with people about this? Because, you know, if there was a Trump administration figure here or someone who voted for or backed the Trump administration, you know, they would say we need to have controls on immigration.

20:27We can't have it be the case that people just enter legally and live here without documentation. There needs to be a level of control maybe to get there. There needs to be a reset where people who are undocumented are removed from the country, as many, many people are calling for. do you engage with that argument or not? I do, Luke. And the reality is that none of us want to be undocumented.

20:53We want to continue to work and play and enjoy as much as we can, but nobody wants to be undocumented. You can ask any of the folks that are living here as an undocumented immigrant that nobody wants to be undocumented. And we are 100 % thinking of the fact that something needs to happen. If there was a pathway, trust me, 11 million of us would have done it a long time ago, but there isn't. That's the reality. It's a lot of misinformation. People think that you can just go to the courthouse and apply and you can't. You know, when Jane was talking about her friends and how you should just apply, well, you can't.

21:29That's the reality. And people are also trying to divide our communities in the sense of the dreamers and the good narrative and, you know, excluding our parents or excluding the working folks. And that's just not the reality. I used to have these debates open up front and be like, listen, let's have a conversation. I don't want to continue with this misinformation and trying to educate people. And the shift in the narrative, once you educate somebody about the actual realities of what the systems look like, then people are like, well, we need to change the system. I'm like, yes, we have no, this is what we've been saying for a long time.

22:08Something that I will always debate and I will not stay quiet about is that there's this narrative that we all choose to come here. And it's not truth. I didn't have a choice. You know, my parents didn't give me a choice. They didn't have a choice. You know, it was you either come here where your family's at or you're dead over there. And it was not easy. You know, I remember in my first weeks here where people will tell me, why don't you learn English? I'm like, don't you think I'm not trying to learn English? I just got here. You know, it's not that I'm not it's not that I want to be here. I don't want to be here.

22:43You know, when I was in my country, I had my room, I had my house, I had a garden. And then here we came and for the first year when I was here, when I was going to high school, I was sleeping on the floor in the house of my aunt. So if you ask me, I was better in my country. But again, I couldn't stay there. Right. Recently, my grandma last year, the one that raised me, passed away and I couldn't go say bye. I couldn't see her. And it was not, you know, it's something that I feel like often people believe that it's a choice that we're making. But it's not a choice, you know, I've spent, you know, most of my life here.

23:22I don't have anything to go back to. I have my life here. My degree don't even work in my own country because of their own politics, you know. So it's definitely, I think, unfair to leave and to, you know, not come back. That is misinformation. So I'm always happy to engage in debates about it. A lot of the misinformed folks think that we just want to come here and we get all these benefits. Luke, that's not the truth. Jane was talking about getting access to health care. I had to raise money for my mom's health care because I was going to lose her. And I didn't get any support from anyone. I had to work my butt off to make that money so my mom's life-saving treatments could happen.

24:11And that's the reality for a lot of us. Some of us don't go to the doctor to get our yearly checkups because we don't have that luxury. And the reality is that none of us are getting any type of benefit. Right. Even with the most crazy thinking of the folks that we're debating, they think that we get phones when you cross the border, that you get immediate access to health care and you get free education. And that's just not the truth. I have the receipts of what my semesters cost me. I have the receipts of what a broken tooth has cost me. It's extraordinary. And it's important for us to share those narratives with these people that are misinformed and uneducated when it comes to the entire system, because it's just simply a false narrative that has been created by this administration that's criminalizing folks that have no criminal record.

25:02and all we want to do is like my colleagues are saying, we just want to live. Some of us just want to be normal people but that's not the reality that we're living. Angela, Jane and Juanita, three women living in the US without legal status. Thank you so much to them for sharing their stories and thank you to you for your company. I'm Luke Jones and you've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

25:33Lives Less Ordinary is bringing you a special series of extraordinary love stories. Roshan Sethi was an uptight Canadian doctor who couldn't come out to his Indian family. Karansani was an actor from India who felt he had to keep his sexuality a secret to make it in Hollywood. But they met, fell in love, and things began to change. They decided to make a romantic comedy based on their relationship. Lives Less Ordinary Love Stories from the BBC World Service. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.