In short
Victoria Falls’ surrounding environment is under pressure from elephant-human conflict and competing plans for tourism and development in Zambia and Zimbabwe, including UNESCO World Heritage protections.
Guests/backgrounds
Chamanawa “Chamu” Chambu, lead driver for an emergency response team run by CATS (local non-profit promoting coexistence); Larry Norton, Zimbabwean artist in a legal fight against a restaurant near the falls; Namo Chuma, from NGO Environment Africa; Evans Mubanga, Permanent Secretary at Zambia’s Ministry of Tourism; Hamakoa Himulonga, community volunteer with Zambia’s Department of National Parks and Wildlife; Teresa Mishiba, coordinator of a Livingston volunteer program; Stanley in Nyakichande, organizer of CATS community river cruises; Gift, youth trained by CATS to become a guide.
Key claims
Elephants are driven into towns by drought, shrinking migration corridors from development, and past poaching recovery; UNESCO warns overdevelopment could threaten World Heritage status. Zambia argues development is needed for jobs, but should be balanced and kept out of the core.
Notable examples
night elephant patrols coaxing elephants away from “Cold Storage”; a legal battle over a restaurant on the Zimbabwe side; community safaris and free river cruises for locals affected by elephants; a government-funded luxury resort in a buffer zone criticized for blocking elephant corridors.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Elephant Encounters in Livingston
0:00 to 0:37
Learn about the growing encounters between elephants and residents in Livingston.
“This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.”
The Elephant Encounters in Livingston
1:29 to 2:26
Learn about the growing encounters between elephants and residents in Livingston.
“the tourist capital of Zambia, in southern Africa, which lies just a few kilometres from the Victoria Falls, one of the natural wonders of the world.”
Challenges of Elephant Migration
2:26 to 3:38
Discuss the factors leading to elephant migration into urban areas.
“People have actually died this year from...”
Balancing Development and Conservation
3:38 to 4:48
Explore the debate around tourism, job creation, and environmental preservation.
“And though there are national parks nearby, experts say that recent severe droughts have forced animals to seek food in unusual places to which they still return.”
The Majesty of Victoria Falls
4:48 to 6:01
Experience the breathtaking beauty and significance of Victoria Falls.
“with the preservation of the unique environment which surrounds one of Africa's most famous attractions.”
Larry Norton’s Fight Against Development
6:01 to 8:10
Hear Larry Norton's battle against construction violating UNESCO protections.
“And through the spray, we can see the silhouette of the knife edge, and behind that is the mystery of Mosea Tunia, the Victoria Falls, the smoke, the thunders.”
Tourism and Environmental Concerns
8:10 to 9:48
Understand the balance between tourism development and preserving natural beauty.
“even saying that overdevelopment could potentially lead to the withdrawal of the falls' status as a World Heritage Site.”
Community Perspectives on Development
9:48 to 12:12
Gather insights from locals on the need for preservation versus development.
“Totally see why it's one of the seven natural wonders of the world.”
Government Perspectives on Tourism Growth
12:12 to 14:02
Hear from officials on balancing tourism growth with conservation efforts.
“will be able to enjoy the view that we are enjoying today.”
Tourism and Conservation in Zambia
14:02 to 17:24
Explore the balance between tourism development and conservation efforts at Victoria Falls.
“The falls is much more than just a natural wonder.”
Show all 16 chapters
Community Interactions with Elephants
17:24 to 20:34
Learn about the challenges and changes in human-elephant interactions in Livingston.
“Livingston is the tourist capital of Zambia.”
Community Interactions with Elephants
21:22 to 21:50
Learn about the challenges and changes in human-elephant interactions in Livingston.
“Investing with Schwab is like spending a Saturday at a great farmer's market.”
Community Interactions with Elephants
21:53 to 22:23
Learn about the challenges and changes in human-elephant interactions in Livingston.
“the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe.”
Alternative Solutions for Human-Elephant Conflict
22:29 to 28:00
Hear how communities are finding peaceful solutions to coexist with elephants.
“I'm Isa Jacobson on assignment in Zambia.”
Chasing Elephants: A Childhood Game
28:00 to 29:58
Learn about the playful childhood experiences of chasing elephants and the connection to local wildlife.
“I would say, me, I didn't like elephants.”
Balancing Development and Conservation
29:58 to 30:29
Explore the challenges of development versus wildlife preservation around Victoria Falls.
“hope people will find a way to share the special land.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
0:30business needs in one place, saving you time, headaches, and serious money. Stop paying for missing pieces. Go to odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com to learn more. Choiceology, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, is a show about the psychology and economics behind our decisions. Join host Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book, How to Change, as she shares true stories from Nobel laureates, authors, athletes, and everyday people about why we make the choices we do and how to make better ones to help avoid costly mistakes. Listen to choiceology at schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen.
1:21Welcome to the documentary podcast from the BBC World Service.
1:28Night has fallen, and a team of Zambians are patrolling the dark streets on the edge of the peaceful town of Livingston, the tourist capital of Zambia, in southern Africa, which lies just a few kilometres from the Victoria Falls, one of the natural wonders of the world.
1:55this area. You would find, say, at least before 6pm. Try by all means to be at your house. But they're not worried about criminals. They're looking for elephants. There's an elephant? Oh, wow. It's gone? In recent years, elephants have been coming into the outskirts of the town to raid people's gardens and feast on food waste dumped around the city. It's led to deadly encounters with residents. People have actually died this year from... Yeah, I think I would say we have four deaths. Chamanawa Chambu is the lead driver for the emergency response team, created by the Conservation and Tourism Society, or CATS, a local non-profit organisation which aims to promote coexistence between communities and wildlife.
2:50Elephants are one of the best animals that are very gentle. So you think it's human behaviour that's basically causing them to attack? Yeah, more especially in our communities, you know. They would throw stones on them. There are these gangs whereby they even end up following elephants to the game park. If you want to join their group, you are supposed to touch a tail of an elephant. I would say they lack knowledge in our communities. Is that because the Zambians living in Livingston and around aren't used to elephants? Yeah, elephants never are used to come in our communities. So why are they coming into town?
3:28Over decades, Zambia's elephant population was decimated by poaching. More recently, their numbers have been growing again, helped by the ban on ivory. And though there are national parks nearby, experts say that recent severe droughts have forced animals to seek food in unusual places to which they still return. But another key driver is increased development around the town and the falls which has cut across old feeding grounds and routes used by elephants as they migrate from neighbouring Zimbabwe and Botswana to Zambia. These elephants corridors, the place where these animals can fit from is getting more and smaller.
4:06And they keep on building lodges, hotels, they give out lands, just like that. At the end you find to say elephants or these animals do not have enough place or space for them to fit. They end up visiting those communities, you know, causing damages. So there is something being built here on the right hand side? Yeah, there is. But it will create another block Yeah, so this place was one of the corridors that an elephant would stay or eat or graze from, you know. This is just one aspect of a growing debate about the management of the Victoria Falls. How to balance tourism, development and the need for jobs with the preservation of the unique environment which surrounds one of Africa's most famous attractions.
4:57I'm Isa Jacobson and this is Assignment.
5:04That incredible sound you can hear, that thunderous sound, is the sound of the Victoria Falls here on the border of Zambia and Zimbabwe in southern Africa. By volume, it is the largest waterfall in the world. From here I can see the top of the falls and the Zambezi River flanked by forests, driving a massive curtain of water over this rocky precipice a mile or nearly two kilometers wide, down a hundred meter drop into a churning torrent below. So right now, standing here, I'm struck by the pristine beauty of this place. But there are concerns that all that could change.
5:56It's a winter's day, beautiful blue sky, and the spray from high water is blowing towards us. And through the spray, we can see the silhouette of the knife edge, and behind that is the mystery of Mosea Tunia, the Victoria Falls, the smoke, the thunders. Larry Norton is a Zimbabwean artist. I meet him on the old bridge, which links the two countries, Zambia and Zimbabwe, and provides a stunning view of the falls. This extraordinary, powerful place that's had such spiritual, emotional meaning to every person in Zambia and Zimbabwe. It's a place we all own inside ourselves, and we have to protect it.
6:46Larry has been fighting a four-year legal battle, taking on the Zimbabwean government and developers to stop the construction of a restaurant on the Zimbabwean side next to the falls, which he argues contravenes a ban on permanent construction in the core of this UNESCO World Heritage Site. The Zimbabwean authorities reject this. The restaurant has since been built. He's now being countersued for US$2 million for defamation by the restaurant's operators. Larry says in recent months he's also been visited by Zimbabwean security officers. But he's determined to keep on fighting. You look at what you're looking on there.
7:29it's absolutely incredible and the way things work we all know it starts with a small thing and it grows many of these things the lease is given to a small structure it then grows and grows and grows so our concern is that the precedent will lead to massive development we've seen it our whole life the World Heritage Site around the falls is divided into a core area close to the falls and a buffer zone, each with their own restrictions on construction. UNESCO has in recent years expressed real concern about building around the falls on both sides of the border, even saying that overdevelopment could potentially lead to the withdrawal of the falls' status as a World Heritage Site.
8:21If this place ends up with hotels everywhere, their buildings, construction. If you look onto the falls and there's millions of people running around on the islands and boats going backwards and forth, it loses what UNESCO referred to the outstanding universal value. And that's an intrinsic thing. It's hard to describe, but it's what you see in front of you. What we respond to in our soul as human beings is wilderness. And how can we not understand this? How can the ministers not understand this? How can the ministers not fight for this? Well, we've got two economies that rely heavily on tourism, and there is so much unemployment.
9:02So where is the balance in that? It's a very good point that you raise. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't develop. Zambia and Zimbabwe critically need development and growth and employment. But let's look after the thing that's going to bring people here. It's just the most incredible, magical place, a Garden of Eden here. You have something of such value. but if you built hotels right up to the lips of the falls and that's gone and once it's gone, it's gone those tourists are not coming and the promises of employment and education that you've made cannot be fulfilled the key to making this work and providing all of that is in protecting it and that applies to both Zambia and Zimbabwe these are sacred sites and I'll fight like hell to look after this because my instincts tell me what's coming
10:00currently around half a million visitors come to the falls each year for tourists there's a lot to do here there's canoeing river rafting kayaking bungee jumping you can take a helicopter or microlight ride above the falls and you can also go on safari drives it draws visitors from around the world. It was absolutely amazing. Totally see why it's one of the seven natural wonders of the world. It's absolutely incredible. You have to experience it. You have to go to them. And we've been to the other two falls as well, Igasu and Niagara. I think this one tops it, the whole experience. This still feels like the Africa we think about, you know, the bushland and the red mud.
10:39Yeah, it's more of the experiences. Is that a selling point? Yeah. Yeah. Would you like to see more accommodation, more hotels? I would say less. I was even a bit not annoyed, but the noise of the helicopters, I didn't really like that. I think more development will be better. Because people are coming, so we need expansion so that it attracts more people. If we have got these major events, Livingstone being the tourist capital of Zambia, we find that people struggle finding space where to sleep, so we really need a lot of accommodation. chance. Here are my local guys. From a glance of view, this is what they want to come here to experience.
11:20Not much development like the Niagara Falls where there are buildings all over the place. I think we still have to preserve it as it is. Our grandfathers were here a thousand years ago. They should keep it as it is. Tourists stay on both sides of the border and the Falls Heritage Site is jointly managed by both Zimbabwe and Zambia. On the Zambian side, there's pressure to develop too. We do know that communities depend on tourism from them to get their jobs, for them to feed their families, to send their kids to school. There's an influx of tourists from Europe who would love to come and enjoy the falls.
12:00But this should be done in such a way that we don't destroy the site itself. We don't overdevelop it so that generations that will come after us will be able to enjoy the view that we are enjoying today.
12:21Namo Chuma is from the local NGO Environment Africa, which promotes sustainability in the region. He meets us at the Dry Manzi picnic site, one of the last spots along the river, open to the public. And where do you see the future? What does the future look like to you? The future is scary. particularly in terms of the pressure for development around the falls, both Zimbabwe and Zambia. I think our governments should take very strong positions to make sure that developments are taken further away from the core. Then people can just drive to go and see the falls. But I see a lot of pressure over the coming years for developers wanting to get as close as possible to the falls.
13:11I see a future where even places like this one where we are standing at some point will be given to a private investor. Put a lodge and then local Zambians will not have access to come and enjoy the beauty of their own country. For the environment, the wildlife and the tourism industry, there is a question of climate change. Water levels in the Zambezi have declined, but at the moment, after good recent rains, it's flowing fast over the rapids. And there are plans for a joint hydroelectric dam about 50 kilometers downriver. This drive for growth has also led to a new coal-fired power station being built on the Zambian side, not too far from the falls.
13:51For Zambia, where youth unemployment is high, growing the tourist industry is crucial. After copper mining and agriculture, it's the biggest sector of the economy. The need to compete with Zimbabwe for tourist dollars is real. The falls is much more than just a natural wonder. It is one of Zambia's greatest economic assets and a catalyst for sustainable national development. Evans Mubanga is the Permanent Secretary at Zambia's Ministry of Tourism. We meet at a new luxury resort on the Zambezi, built with government money, a few kilometres upriver from the falls in the heritage site's buffer zone.
14:31It reportedly has created 1 ,500 jobs, a compelling argument for development, but its construction did not go down well with UNESCO nor with environmentalists concerned it was blocking elephant migration corridors. It's a balance of what we want to conserve but also in terms of economic beneficiation that comes to our people and today I'll tell you that Zambia is far much better off than when we were. So whatever we do, we abide by the laws of the country. Yes, we go to UNESCO, there's a lot of consultation. But I think that we are not doing things outside to destroy our very site, not at all.
15:20And I think that even the development that has happened here, I would like to see somebody who would say that this is what you've damaged. Yes, there was the element of saying that this is an elephant corridor, but elephants still roam around this very corridor. But the benefit that has come to the economy and to the people around this place who stay very close to the foes is phenomenal. Because we've spoken to a lot of people, both Zambians and foreign tourists, who say they want to see it pristine. Yes, they want it pristine, but those who are advancing such conversations need to face reality as well.
16:02That it's not about just pristineness, but what do you do to be able to make sure that the people that live around there benefit? It's a balancing act. So what next? There are parts of the heritage site that are currently earmarked as zones for sustainable development. but he says their focus is also on harnessing the potential of the nearby town of Livingston which lies just 10 minutes drive from the falls. There are so many of course iconic hotels and lodges that want to come into here you know and say no we just want to be closer to the falls. No, I think as government we say no we can maintain the falls but you can be able to build, buy off some of the assets around in town because it's very near.
16:51and regardless whether you've slept in town or you've slept closer to the foes, you know, the experience is the same. So for me, there is a value to maintain the foes in its pristine nature around those areas, but also we need to look at now other areas where development can actually go, but without forgetting the communities that really live around here.
17:24Livingston is the tourist capital of Zambia. It's grown to be home to around 200 ,000 people. A few decades ago, it was a centre of manufacturing and textiles. But as its old industries died, tourism has become the lifeblood of the town. It's a tree-lined, bustling place, safe, peaceful and incredibly friendly. But as it's expanded into the surrounding countryside, there's a growing recognition that people will have to develop a new relationship with the wildlife on their doorstep. Me, I came here in 1994, when I was almost 10 years old. This area, it was a bush. There were no people here when we came in 1994.
18:08Hamakoa Himulonga is a community-based volunteer working with the Zambian Department of National Parks and Wildlife. I meet him in Dambwa, a neighbourhood of Livingston that has grown right up to the edge of the national park. That time we had no, the elephant were not coming in. Then even these monkeys which are troubling us, they were not coming in. It's just a few years ago, I would say maybe two or three years ago, that's when elephants started coming in the communities. Teresa Mishiba lives nearby. She's the coordinator of the Livingston Victoria Falls International Volunteer Program. which collaborates with the park's department.
18:47That fence, that's demarcation between the community and the national park. Wow, it doesn't look like much protection at all. Yeah, the fence is too light for the elephants. You can see wire mesh in between wooden poles, stretching into the distance with the park on one side and houses on the other. and there is an entire community just mere metres away from this fence. They had six years today that came in this community. So you find that each household has mango trees. Then when elephants start coming looking for food, they always pluck big branches. Something that's bringing elephants in the community, we have poor waste management, so in the past people just dump anyhow.
19:36Then you find that elephants will be coming to the same place wanting the same food. But at least now people are slowly changing the mindset that dumping waste in places where it's supposed to be dumped. When elephants do come, people often shout, bang pots, throw stones or little fireworks to get them to leave, which can be counterproductive. Elephants have great hearing and smell, but poor eyesight, so they can be easily startled by all this commotion. And a scared, panicked elephant can be dangerous. So we tell them not to throw stones to the animals. If they start chasing them, it's when they become vicious.
20:15Maureen lives just a couple of metres from the fence with her young family. You're living very, very, very close to the national park. It must be quite scary. Do you feel like you can live with the elephants in future?
20:32So she's saying elephant problems are not something that's ending any time soon. So if they can have anywhere to go, they would rather relocate to another safe place. You'd rather move than stay here. You're listening to the Documentary Podcast from the BBC World Service.
20:52Ready, set, summer. With the Honda Summer Event. With available features like all-terrain tires, the rugged Honda Pilot, Ridgeline, CR-V and Passport. Have all you need to get summer ready. With the most fuel-efficient full-line automaker in America. For a limited time, well-qualified buyers can get a 2.99 % APR on a 2026 CRV. For more details, visit your Chicagoland Northwest Indiana Honda dealer today. See dealer for financing details. Based on EPA estimate of 2024 large bull line automaker fleet wide fuel economy. EPA automotive trends report 2025. Investing with Schwab is like spending a Saturday at a great farmer's market.
21:25You can fill your reusable tote with a bit of everything. Maybe you go for some free-range self-directed investing. Or perhaps you pick up a few farm-fresh trades while you peruse. You can even get help from a dedicated advisor. That's full-service wealth management. Mix, match, and change your mind whenever you want. Because at Schwab, you can invest your way. No matter your goals or appetite for investing, Schwab has everything you need all in one place. Visit schwab.com to learn more. Support comes from WISE, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees when you send money abroad with your everyday bank?
22:02Choose the smart way. wise you can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on google no unwelcome surprises plus ditch that where's my money feeling most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds join millions saving billions on hidden fees be smart get wise download the wise app today t's and c's apply
22:29I'm Isa Jacobson on assignment in Zambia. Some in the community would like the elephants to be gone, whatever it takes. But Zambia, unlike other countries in the region, says no to culling elephants. There are people seeking other solutions and trying to ease tensions. Among them, Chamu. On his night patrol, Chamu has a special job. He tries to coax elephants away from hostile areas. He shows that gentleness and understanding really can work. Mostly, you know, we just talk to them in a gentle voice. Yeah, if they don't move in a gentle voice, then our engine rave. We just rave a little bit of the vehicle.
23:16OK, so... There's some elephants? Yeah. There's some elephants? Yeah. Oh, wow. So there are houses behind us, there are buildings to the left of us, and there's an elephant right here, right here, feeding in the grass. It's only a few metres away from us. And on our right, the elephants are really only a metre or two away. Leaning out the window, Chamu the elephant whisperer works his magic. Come on, guys. It's time to go. It's time to go.
23:58There you go. There you go. Keep moving, guys. There you go. There you go. No, no, no, no, no. Hey. One shows a little irritation and shakes his head at being asked to leave. Chamu gives him some room. All right, they leave space for you. You can cross. And then, incredibly, these massive animals respond to his words and slowly trundle across the road. He's guiding them away from a neighbourhood called Cold Storage, where locals are known to harass the animals. So the reason why I'm pushing them on the other side, Yeah, it's because when they just go to court storage, it won't be good for them.
24:55It's amazing, they're actually moving off. Yeah, so they're going round like that behind these buildings. Are they heading towards the park? Yes, yeah. I've seen elephants in the bush, but I've never seen them in an urban environment before. and so to see them tonight like that, just standing on the side of the road, it's just surreal. The job is done, for now. Coexistence is the mantra. It can be a hard sell, but there are some novel ways to get people on board.
25:38We're on a riverboat on the Zambezi, but this is a cruise with a difference. The passengers are all from communities affected by elephants. It's an outing few can afford, so it's laid on for free. The idea is to show people the wonders of being in nature and use it as an opportunity to change their minds about living with wildlife.
Read the full transcript
26:07Stanley in Nyakichande is one of the organizers. He runs a community business unit set up by the Conservation and Tourism Society, or CATS. Gone are the days when we had a park that had a game reserve, where when there's no food in the park, the animals can go and cushion their feeding on the reserve. But all the reserve land has now been built, there are houses there. Most of them, actually, their houses are built along the corridors. Those corridors have been used by these elephants, time and memorial, you know. So they need to understand that they are in the conflict zone and then they need to know how to coexist with these animals.
26:45I'm Caroline and this is my first time on the river. I'm happy and it's so exciting. I'm enjoying it. It's very, very nice seeing some animals like hippos and crocodiles and even to learn something about how we should be living with the animals, especially the elephants which are coming into our homes. Staying away from them, not chasing them, because they are so scary, but they are friendly as well. So I have to stay away from them. A key message is that there are different economic opportunities for locals that coexistence can bring. They have projects to help people raise livestock or grow crops that elephants don't eat.
27:31One community even started doing nighttime urban safaris for tourists. So the only way we can stop the fighting is getting them to see the benefit of tourism and the beauty, wildlife. I mean, it's just nice to watch, not to fight. They also work with local youths in these conflict zones to provide training so that they can earn money from tourism and see wildlife as a benefit, not a curse. I was chasing elephants myself. I was chasing elephants. I would say, me, I didn't like elephants. Each time they come out from the national park, I'll be the first one to pick a stone and throw at them. Then we chase them, they chase us.
28:20We chase them, they chase us. So it was like a game. We were just like playing because we had nothing to do at home. And how many of you were in a group doing that? We were 30, 40. Wow.
28:41A lot of youths in our community, they just stay at home doing nothing. It's a year here in Livingstone or in Zambia to just find a job. It's hard. But through cats, Gift got training and is now a community guide. He works with Chamu, the elephant whisperer, and they take us into the national park, home to giraffe, hippos, elephants and white rhinos. He's come to love the wildlife here, even the elephants, which we finally find in their natural habitat, by the banks of the Zambezi.
29:18So you can see how the ears are moving. They are flapping. So it's just like cooling its body, the temperature. Because if they were not happy, the time that we approached, they can even shake their head to warn us. But they're in a happy zone, so they are OK now. To preserve this place, people must feel that they have a stake in it. The catch is to make sure that the jobs and development locals want do not ruin what makes the Victoria Falls attractive to so many. Change seems inevitable, but both Gift and Chamu hope people will find a way to share the special land. People will get to learn and they will understand the animals.
30:11They will change. My prayer always is these animals, they can just live freely. In the next, maybe not even ten years, maybe in the next five years, people's mindset is definitely going to change.
30:29This episode of Assignment was presented by me, Isa Jacobson. The producer was Alex Last. The sound mix was by Neil Churchill. The production coordinator was Gemma Ashman. The series editor is Penny Murphy.
30:49Thank you.
From the publisher
The Victoria falls, on the border of Zambia and Zimbabwe, is considered one of the natural wonders of the world. But as Isa Jacobson reports, there is concern that development around the waterfall could threaten the delicate ecosystem and exacerbate conflict between humans and wildlife.




