Why I chose to adopt

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0:45Hello, I'm Luke Jones. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC OS Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences. This time, the rewards and challenges of building a family through adoption.

1:04One of the world's most famous actresses, Jennifer Aniston, recently spoke about her years of unsuccessful fertility treatment and her dreams of becoming a mother. Rather than adopt, she said she wanted, quote, her own DNA in a little person. This comment caused a huge reaction online, particularly amongst women with their own fertility struggles as well as those who had been adopted. In our conversations we wanted to get a sense of what adoption means to families and to the children they adopt. So let's hear from four women to get their reaction to what Jennifer Aniston said about wanting to have her own biological child.

1:41They are Alexis who is in Florida in the US and Margaret in India. They have both biological and non-biological children. Imogen is in the UK and has an adopted son and Diana is in Texas. We'll hear from her first. She's currently having IVF treatment in the hope of having her first child. It really resonated with me and I felt like I really understood what she was saying. What was surprising to me was the universal backlash that she received for speaking out loud something that I think a lot of people feel. Margaret how about you? Well, to some extent, I feel she's fine. But then my opinions differ a bit.

2:24You know, for me, adoption has been a very beautiful experience. Having your own kid, that is natural, right? That's God given. But when things don't turn up that way, adoption should be considered, I feel. Alexis. So I'm kind of in a unique spot where I'm in the middle. So I've been a licensed foster parent for about four years. And now we're in a position where my son who's been with me for four years needs to be adopted. And we are going through that process currently. And in the background of all this, I was pursuing IVF because I too had a deep desire to share a biological connection with a child.

3:05It doesn't diminish the love that I have for my firstborn son. And I do consider him my firstborn son, even though we don't share a biological connection. but I don't think that one is a substitute for the other and this idea that Jennifer Aniston should have been grateful to just been handed this alternative route and that she should have taken it I don't think that's fair to either her or the child. And actually Margaret you had already given birth to a child is that right and then when you adopted that was your second child? Yes my first one my son he was almost three years when we decided to go for adoption.

3:42Why did you decided to adopt if you could have got pregnant again? See initially the day I was about to give birth I went through a lot of pain and when my husband saw my pain he decided that that's enough this is the one child that we will have no more kids but then within three years we felt like yes we can give family to a child and this was shared in our group a little group that we had and then we started praying about it and it just so happened that this person came saying that there's a child you know somebody who wants to give away because she lost her husband we were not really ready financially all that but we said we'll just go and see and the moment we went to see the baby I tell you that was the point that I said I'm going to go for this that immediate connection with her you know she just looked into my eyes and I know I am not able to put this across but that was such a strong connection there and that is where I decided she's going to be my baby so that's how it just so happened yeah Luke you brought something interesting up because you asked if you were able to have biological children why did you choose to adopt and I found this to be the exact opposite of the question that we're discussing with Jennifer Aniston, because I had wanted to adopt from when I was a kid.

5:12And when I met my husband, and he told me on our first date that he'd had testicular cancer and was infertile, I went, Oh, my God, that's brilliant. I can adopt. So my reaction was, yeah, I get to do the thing I've wanted to do. Just explain that. Why was it the case that you always just knew actually, this is going to be the route for me? I think it was children's books about kids with no parents. It's also been in my family. My uncle was permanently fostered. My mum's partner is adopted. When I met my husband, his gran was adopted. So it was always something that I was aware of. But yeah, I think there were a lot of portrayals in children's literature about children children with no parents, children looking for a home.

6:00I always wanted to do it. But what image did you make then of those comments of Jennifer Aniston just saying, well, actually what I want, though, is a bit of my DNA in that person. I want to look at that child and know that there is my genes swimming around there. I mean, it's complicated for me. I don't share that feeling at all. I suppose it made me a bit sad to think that someone might think they wouldn't be able to love a kid that didn't share their DNA. You know, I'm probably extrapolating that from her when she hasn't said that. But yeah, all I can think is a bit like Margaret said, it's so easy to love a child who you don't share DNA with.

6:36So yeah, it doesn't resonate with me. I mean, you know, the other side of this is just leave the woman alone. Well, yeah, there is always that. Diana, what do you think about this? For me, it's also complicated because I never had the choice. Yes. My husband and I have been married for almost 15 years. And shortly after marriage, we discovered that we had some severe medical issues that was going to make it impossible for us to ever conceive naturally. So we did pursue adoptions. We wanted to also become a foster home and maybe one day adopt a child if we could. And we quickly learned that my idea of adoption in this way had been romanticized.

7:27These beautiful stories that we read about growing up or movies that we've seen, they weren't exactly the whole truth, at least not in Texas. Not in Florida either, trust me. These children come from intensely traumatic backgrounds, Even if they come as small as my son, my son came to me at 21 months old. And let me tell you, a 21 month old child can have trauma. And we've been navigating that for several years. Adoption isn't as easy as you bring in a child and they have a home and everything goes splendidly thereafter. It's a lifelong process of acknowledging that love isn't enough all the time.

8:10Imogen, is that something that you've experienced with your adoption as well? the idea that even young children can then come into your home with a lot of trauma that they have to process? Yeah, I mean, just to be clear, kids can be traumatized in utero. You know, it's from pre-birth that these kids can be traumatized, which can include the most wild things that you have no idea about, such as my son has massive issues processing insulin because of the levels of cortisol due to domestic violence towards the birth mother when he was in the womb. You know, it's a huge and complicated situation. I agree that they tend to hide that.

8:52And I don't think that's right, because actually you want the people who will say, I want to do this astonishing, challenging thing with my life, because that's what it is. But the rewards are absolutely massive. And they're not what you would expect from birth parenting. What actually are those challenges though, if you don't mind me asking? I mean, what kind of thing? I mean, Christmas. Christmas is my favourite example because I love Christmas and I was really looking forward to having Christmas with my adopted child. What I didn't realise was that my adopted child would have been removed from his birth family by the police at Christmas.

9:31For years, you couldn't even see a Santa. And you had to learn that over the years. yeah margot what do you think of this well i i do agree when adapting i had no clue no idea what it is to adopt i just went in there but during that time i realized there's a lot of pain there's a lot of you know trauma that my daughter was carrying but this is why i say it's a beautiful thing is because we're able to overcome all that pain and all that thing behind her life whatever she was carrying to a place where she's very secure. She's now 26 years old, okay? And I'm so glad she's so full of life. The way she handles her challenges, the way she goes around making friends, it's a complete change, you know?

10:24And I believe simple love can bring about this change, you know? It's clear that you've all come to your own sense of how you feel about your decisions with regards to how you have children. But there's a lot of judgment in this area. I just wonder how any of you have dealt with the outside world having an opinion. So I actually lost my best friend through this. She was very firm that I should be, quote unquote, grateful to have my foster son and that that should have been enough for me. And why would I torment myself through the IVF process? and she quite literally told me that obviously being IVF is against God's will and that that's why I was facing so many challenges.

11:09And that prejudice I saw carried through with other relationships that I had, or it at least made me, I don't know if paranoid is the right word, but I kind of had a little chip on my shoulder. But now I don't care who knows about our story. Our family was built through science and our family was built through love, foster care and adoption. And that's just who we are. What about you, Diana? Yes, people in my personal life, people who I worked with. I am a teacher, so I work with a lot of women. And I didn't often share vulnerably like what we were experiencing. But the few times that I did, I would get the same sort of judgment.

11:48Like, why don't you just adopt? And that word just is like minimizing the fact that it's not something you just do. And if you are just doing that, it's going to be difficult for you and for the child because it's not an easy thing. I had many of the opposite comments, which were, why are you not going to go down the IVF route? And I was like, I don't want to. I want to adopt. But they were like, but you'll never know what it is to be a true mother. And I was like, yeah, but I will know what it is to help this kid. Did any of that judgment come from somebody who you cared about their opinion? Yeah, I'm afraid so.

12:28Very close friends, family, just gobsmacked. And there was definitely a kind of ambient eugenics going on around there. There was a lot of, but your genes are so good. And so, you know, it was really disturbing. And it shocked me, I'll be honest. I didn't expect that. Yeah, for me, when we thought of adapting, everybody tried to discourage us. I mean, it took some perseverance. Adoption is not at all encouraged over here It's not looked as something like, you know, in these foreign countries And I feel so good when I hear about foster care You know, how much capacity to love even one kid, two kids, three, four They have so much love in their hearts To go out of the way to help the kid, the parent, you know It's amazing, I wish we could have something like this over here In India, we can't even think about it There's no way, no foster care, no adoption so much and courage.

13:26But I'm so proud of you guys, you know, discussion today, even as foster care and all those complications as well. I'm glad we could have this conversation, yeah. Margaret, in conversation with Imogen, Diana and Alexis. And actually we'll be hearing from Margaret's daughter shortly in conversation with two other adoptive children. All of them are grown up now, of course, with their own perspectives on this. I'm Luke Jones and you're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service

14:06I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom and the trading floor that's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive but even though I've got questions Join me, Merrin's Upset Web, every week for my show Merrin Talks Money from Bloomberg Podcasts, where I have in-depth conversations with fund managers, strategists and experts about how markets really work. And join me for a separate episode where I answer listener questions and how to make those markets work for you. Follow Merrin Talks Money on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.

14:39In our second conversation, we wanted to hear the other side of the story, the experiences of people who were adopted into their families at a young age. Do they feel any different now they're adults? It's hard to get an accurate global picture for the number of adoptions, but there are around 4.5 million adopted children in the United States. That's about 120 ,000 per year. In India, which has a much higher population, the official number is many times lower, around 4 ,000 a year. So we brought together Sheikha, who is in India. She's the daughter of Margaret, who you heard from in our first conversation.

15:12ML is in Southern California and Ferreira is in Texas. They began by sharing how and when each of them first realised they were adopted. I think I always had an intuitive knowing that I was adopted, but the very first time that it was officially confirmed for me, I was 10. My dad was on a business trip out of the country. We went with him and the short story is there was an artist who painted portraits of my sister and I and asked if we were friends, which was a question that we got asked quite a bit because we don't look anything alike. And so finally, I decided to ask my mom again. It wasn't the first time I had asked, but she finally, you know, confirmed for me, yes, I'm adopted.

15:56And that's basically how I first officially found out. Can you remember how that felt? Oh, well, I remember feeling like, ah, I knew it. You know, it was both validating and surreal at the same time. I mean, it's kind of an indescribable feeling, but it's interesting. A lot of adoptees have this innate knowing that something's different from a very young age. It's an interesting phenomenon, I think, but it's very common, it seems. Well, Emel, what about you? Yes, that really resonates with me. I was relinquished and adopted a bit older and around three years old. So I just also inherently knew I was adopted.

16:42I never quite had a sit down moment. I'm also like, because I'm transracially adopted, I am way darker than my white adoptive parents. So there wasn't really ever a conversation where they said, you know, you're adopted. But I would say that I kind of came into like consciousness that adopted meant different. Starting school around like five years old, I started to realize, wait, everyone else looks like their parents and I don't. And so that's when I started to ask more questions about my biological family. Sheikha, how about you? Yeah, I think my story is a little bit different because I come from Mumbai.

17:25Mumbai. Mumbai is a city of Bollywood and we grew up watching a lot of movies. Adoption in general was something that was used not in a very good way. You know, it was always like the adopted kids were shown as an outcast or somebody that people wouldn't go for. So my mom tells me that they used to always tell me through different encouraging stories about adopting me. But I I remember when I was eight and she said that I was adopted, the only feeling that I had at that moment was I don't belong anywhere. You know, that was the feeling that I went through. And I remember tears just rolling down my eyes and I was in a shock.

18:06I didn't know where I was. It was a numb feeling, I would say. Faroe, when you had it confirmed for you that you were adopted, did it change your relationship with your adopted family? How did that change things? Well, my parents were not forthcoming with me the first couple of times that I asked. I believe I was six years old when I first, you know, had the courage to ask. And now I have wonderful relationships with my adoptive parents. But at the time, the reality is when parents aren't forthcoming with their adoptive children about their origin, their story, the fact that they are adopted, what their ethnicity is, those things were not fully disclosed to me voluntarily.

18:50You know, that relationship is built on a foundation of secrecy. So it's a very complicated thing for a child to navigate. and that becomes sort of the foundation you know along with everything else all the layers I think I'm right in saying your adoptive family are Chinese ethnically is that right and you later understood you were Filipino well I didn't even find out until I was 15 actually that I was Filipino so even at 10 it was ambiguous to me but then my mom did take me to the adoption agency where I was adopted from when I was 15. And I was given a packet filled with a lot of documents and a letter and a poem from my birth mother and some couple of photos.

19:33But I will say that they were always encouraging of me to go deeper once I made a point to express my desire to do that. M.L.? Yeah. When I was a child and I was asking questions, they gave me the best answers they could. But when I became more curious as an adult, I requested my files from my adoptive parents. They said no. And that became the beginning of a very challenging time. And right now we are not in good relationship. How do you feel about that? Oh, it is tough. I would say like being a strange is tough because it's not what I had ever wanted. But I would say, honestly, their lack of growth with me and being able to sit with me through the challenges of being adopted, like both mentally, emotionally, has really upset our dynamic.

20:29Because as much as I want to explore and get to know my culture and my biological family, I still want them along. And, you know, I am a mental health provider, and I work with adoptees and unfortunately I see this quite often that sometimes adoptive families they're just not able to see beyond their own hurt or their own perception of what family means and they're not quite able to walk along with their adoptee and love them and who they were before they came into the family. It must be so difficult being a therapist on top of all of it having such insight into all of this? I mean, have you found that?

21:08Yeah, I love my work. I love supporting the people that I work with through trauma, attachment, wounds. And I actually work with adoptees and their adoptive parents. And I love that work because I love connecting them together and helping them hear each other. I often tell them, you know, my own adoptive parents wouldn't even join me in the room. So the fact that they're even willing to listen and mend together is a huge step. Unfortunately, I haven't had that kind of relationship with my own adoptive families. Sheikha, tell us a bit more about you and how learning that you were adopted actually changed your identity somewhat.

21:45It didn't in an ethnic sense, as it has with Ferreira and ML. But how are adopted children viewed in India? Was that a difficult identity to grapple with? Yeah. So what happened was a few of my friends got to know that I was adopted when I was in school, about eight or nine years old and that news spread like fire and all the kids would come up to me and they would ask me weird questions like oh so you don't look like your mother oh so where is your mother and you know things like that so I have an older brother he's three years older to me but he is their own biological son and my parents adopted me three years later so they would always say oh but your brother looks different.

22:28And, you know, comments like these really took a toll on me. So I would come home angry and upset. And, you know, most of the times crying and coming back home and getting all that anger onto my parents, although they never treated me like I was an adopted child. But I grew up around people who would not really see adoption as a good thing. People always prefer their own blood family members you know they would not trust anybody from outside and all of those things starts coming up even when you have like a normal conversation so every time I speak to someone and I say that I'm adopted either they look at me with all their sympathy eyes and pity eyes like oh you know so you have this life and either they see me that way or they see me in a way that's like oh you should be grateful that you have this life as far as my parents I think they've been very, very supportive because I give a lot of talks on adoption to different communities.

23:28So I ask them, do they feel offended when I keep saying that I'm adopted? And my mom just happened to say that, you know, she gave you birth and because of her, I got you. So why should I feel bad about it? You know, you are a blessing. And my dad, he keeps saying that don't ever tell people that you are adopted. Say that you adopted all of us. Shika, Ferreira and ML reflecting on their experiences of growing up as adopted children. Thanks to all of them and to everyone who took time to talk to us about this very very personal issue. I'm Luke Jones and you've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

24:13I've spent the last three decades trying to better understand money across the boardroom, the newsroom, and the trading floor. That's longer than most podcast hosts have been alive. But even though I've got questions, join me, Merrin's Upset Web, every week for my show Merrin Talks Money from Bloomberg Podcasts, where I have in-depth conversations with fund managers, strategists, and experts about how markets really work. And join me for a separate episode where I answer listener questions on how to make those markets work for you. Follow Merrin Talks Money on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen.