Witnessing the 'Hand of God'

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0:30Lourdes Heredia:Make your travel dollars work harder. Follow Smart Travel on your favourite podcast app. Odoo, providing tools for businesses across industries into one fully integrated platform. Whatever your business needs, Odoo is committed to providing it. Learn more at odoo.com. You're listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

1:05Welcome to The Fifth Floor from the BBC World Service with me, Tharanak Amidi. The BBC World Service broadcasts in 45 languages around the world. Our job here at The Fifth Floor is to bring you the best of those stories in English and to also get you closer to the extraordinary work our journalists do. Every single World Cup has its standout personalities and talking points. Fans have been as delighted by Lionel Messi's performance in this tournament, his sixth World Cup, or by the standout style of Democratic Republic of Congo superfan Lumumba Vea, as they have been sometimes baffled by hydration breaks.

1:49But only a handful of moments are remembered down the decades. In 1986, in Mexico City, Diego Maradona scored two goals for Argentina in a match against England that will never be forgotten. That's a poor clearance. Maradona with Shilton. Looked like handball, that. Maradona's celebrating and the goal's going to be given. It's run a big round of great goals. And there's no doubt about that one. Was your hand or the hand of God?

2:25It was my hand. With this, I don't mean any disrespect to English fans. Today, we are remembering Diego Maradona's notorious hand of God and World Service news editor, Lourdes Heredia, it turns out, was there. Lourdes, welcome to the fifth floor. Hi, hello. Can you imagine being 40 years ago? I cannot believe that. It has been four decades already. You are one of the witnesses of the hand of God, Lourdes. Set the scene for us. It's 1986, it's Mexico City and you're 17. I'm 17 and I'm just, I'm not a football fan and I never watched a match before. Actually, the hand of God was my first and last match I've seen.

3:13Wow. And so I feel a little bit guilty because I was witness of one of the goals that people keep talking about. And it was just pure coincidence. As you can imagine, we Mexicans, we love to host people from all around the world. We have massive parties because it's a World Cup we celebrated. In 1986, it was no difference. But the tickets were quite expensive. So we didn't have any tickets. And my father, I think in the office, someone had some tickets and nobody could use them. So my father calls my mom and says, do you want to use them? But I'm a little bit worried because they wore Falklands Malvinas.

3:52Happened not long ago. And that meant that he was worried about the violence in the match. But my mom said, you're crazy. We are going. This is one chance opportunity to be there and to leave the World Cup inside the Azteca, which is an iconic stadium for us. So there we go. I everywhere was a party. Like, you know, the Azteca is so far away from my house, is from one side to the other. So we got in the car and, you know, it was two hours drive, which was a party. Everyone had flags everywhere. where we were chanting to one car to the other. And that hasn't changed. If you see any of the images right now, it's just a great atmosphere.

4:38We love partying. And we don't care about these stereotypes. We wear everything traditional and we're very proud of it. I remember dressing up like crazy because I was going to see all these handsome boys. What were you wearing? What were you wearing? I was wearing something really yellow and, you know, something very traditional Mexican. And also it's like it brings all our stereotypes. We enjoy them. So we wear everything that you can imagine, hat bands. Everyone was face painting. We just celebrate. We carry the sombreros with very proudly into the stadium. And there was a completely different way of how it is right now, right?

5:23The security was much less. You could bring things in the stadium. Outside, they were selling all type of food because we love street food in Mexico is great. So you could eat it. It was completely different atmosphere from what it is right now. So I remember the first part of the match, nothing happened. There was no goals. So I spent my time doing the wave, la hola, up, down, up, down. So I was not paying too much attention to the football. till Maradona does this goal. And everyone was discussing what happened, what just happened. Shook and furious, and so is Peter Reid. And the England manager, Bobby Robson, can't believe it.

6:05And the guy next to me, I asked him, I'm sure he escaped from the office because he was dressed as a salaryman. And he said, no, Maradona scored that goal, but the referee didn't see that he used a hand. And somebody else said, no, no, it's a goal because it's Latin America. We had to support him. But the discussion was massive in the stadium. And of course, at that time, we didn't know that the hand of God was going to become such a massive moment. And I never saw any other match. I think I was lucky just to see the goal of the century. And when I became, I was a correspondent in Buenos Aires in Argentina.

6:41And everyone, every time I said I work for the BBC, they always talk about the hand of God. And I said, don't talk about the hand of God. Talk about the second goal. That was the one who was magnificent. And it was Maradona in full. It was really good to see. But people love talking about the hand of God. Tell me what happened four minutes later when the second goal took place? What happened afterwards? So the interesting thing is that people were, they were very distracted. And everyone was talking and debating. And suddenly there was this silence. And you could see Maradona. I was quite far away from the pitch.

7:23But you could see Maradona going from one side to the other side of the pitch in a tango dance. It was incredible to watch because it was like he was dancing.

7:38and then when he scored that goal you have to see the shouting in the stadium it was such a special moment that even the England fans were celebrating that spectacular goal and I think for us who the people who were on that match the one that that stayed with us was the second goal because that was magical. It was a magic moment. It was when I thought, oh, this is why people like football because I never understood why people were so passionate about it. And that was a goal that for me was the moment to remember. And when we went home, everyone was talking about the first goal. And I was thinking, you're missing the moment, which was the second one.

8:23Thank you so much, Lourdes. You're listening to the documentary, from the BBC World Service.

8:59Lourdes Heredia:Follow Smart Travel on your favorite podcast app.

9:28and Northwest Indiana Chevy dealers for details. Chevy Drive Chicago. Every story is a technology story in one way or another. And on the interface, we decode the tech that's rewiring your week and your world. On this week's episode, is AI pushing us towards an infinite work week? And this year's World Cup is the most technologically advanced ever. But is it making the game better or worse? Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

10:06This is The Fifth Floor, and I'm Farina Khamidi. A few weeks ago in Afghanistan, in the western city of Herat, people took to the streets in a rare protest after local Taliban government officials reportedly began arresting women perceived to be improperly wearing their hijab. Since the Taliban returned to power in 2021, women's rights have been restricted more and more. Women are no longer allowed to go to secondary school or university. Beauty parlors have been shut down. Travel restrictions have been put in place, dictating how far women can travel from home. And they have even been ordered not to speak when out in public.

10:51These moves came despite Taliban leadership announcing shortly after seizing power, we are going to allow women to study and work within our framework. Women are going to be very active in our society. So today, I am joined by two journalists from the BBC Afghan services to hear more about the recent protests and how women's rights are being treated under current Taliban leadership. I have with me Mahjub al-Nuruzi and Ma'moon Durrani. Welcome, guys. Thank you. Thanks for having us. It's great to have you. Mahjub al-Nuruzi, I'm going to start with you. Could you explain why people were protesting in Herat?

11:31The protests were triggered by the arrest of dozens of women by the Taliban morality police in Herat. The women were detained for allegedly violating the Taliban's dress code and hijab requirements. Many residents saw the arrests as humiliating, as they put it, and people gathered to demand the woman's release and to protest against what they called the increasing restrictions on women. And were both men and women protesting? think? Yes, both men and women were involved, although women were at the center of the issue because they were the ones being targeted by the arrests. It's worth mentioning that in today's Afghanistan, public protests are extremely difficult and risky, and especially for women.

12:25So the fact that the residents from the community came out at all was significant. Many of The ministrations appear to be driven by local residents and family members concerned about the detained women. As you mentioned, protests under Taliban leader, under the Taliban authority right now is very, very difficult. But any time that there have been protests, it seems that women have been on the forefront of those protests. Having men supporting women in protests like this is quite a rare thing in Afghanistan. that? It is very rare. And for a long time, it didn't happen. And women were always critical of men in the country saying that you do not support us.

13:11And they were, as you said, in the forefront of all the protests, especially in Kabul. And the protests, it was like a very rare thing. And many people couldn't believe it that men dare to go on the streets and protest alongside women and chanting education, freedom and work. Yeah, car passing Azadi. Yeah. What happened? How did the protests end? Well, the protest was dispersed by the Taliban security forces. According to the United Nations mission in Afghanistan, security forces used excessive force against the protesters. We had reports as well that one person, one young boy was killed by gunfire and several people were injured, including some who were reportedly beaten and kicked and punched.

14:06We saw some of the videos and security deployments increased across Herod afterwards, bringing the demonstrations to an end. But many injured people were not taken to the hospital because they were, but many, they would be arrested in the hospital. Mamoun, I want to bring you in here. You have spent a lot of time looking into the current Taliban leadership. The man at the head is called Hibatullah Al-Khunzadeh. Tell us about him. Who is he? Ibn Khuzab is originally from the southern part of the country, which is the historical and ideological home of the Taliban. And the mediators describe him as a calm, quiet and humble and a good listener.

14:48However, behind this reserved personality is a deeply religious man known for his hardline conservative views and strict approach to discipline. He also raised as children with militant jihadis belief. As a result, we know his youngest son, Abdul Rahman, became known for carrying out a suicide attack in July 27th in Helmand province, where the British force were settled. So he has a strict interpretation of Sharia. He also has implementation of a high conservative governancy model, notably showing decrees that strictly restrict women's access to public life, secondary and higher education and employment.

15:35Every decision he makes, he says, I'm accountable to Allah on judgment day. I will be questioned why I didn't take an action. He is not here in public spaces. He doesn't speak with locals, just he has specific places that meet with officials. Most of the officials need to wait to meet him for weeks. He doesn't use a mobile phone. Normally when he speaks with officials, he's using a walkie-talkie. So, yeah, I heard from somebody very close among the Taliban that one of his daughters had a kidney problem and she needed a kidney implant. But he didn't allow that because in Islam, apparently you cannot have somebody else's transplant.

16:25So she died. And while you were investigating these top men of Taliban, you realized that there is this faction in that top leadership. What are they divided over? As we work on this story for a long, long time, we spoke with a lot of sources. So there was four points which they are divided. First one is the economy in relation with the world. Kabul faction wants to talk and work with the international community to improve the economy and get official recognition. But Kandahar faction, which is led by Haibat Laqadilla, doesn't care about international recognition. They focus only on state, ideological and absolute control on everything.

17:12So women's education is the second one, women's education and work. Kabul factions support letting girls and women go to high school, university and work. But Kandahar factions strongly oppose this and enforce state bans on education and jobs for women based on their extreme interpretation of Sharia, of Allah. So the centralization of power. Kandahar faction, the Supreme Leader, wants to keep all decisions making power in Kandahar. He approves major appointment in laws himself, leaving the Kabul ministers with very little independency. The fourth point, management of financial revenues. Kabul faction wants national revenues from customs, tax and mining to go through the official government budget to find public service.

18:05But Kandahar faction keeps strict control over a large portion of these financial resources. Mahir Bajan, why did this crackdown, recent crackdown on hijab happen in Herat specifically? The Taliban have steadily tightened the enforcement of their morality laws since returning to power in 2021. In Herat, authorities later confirmed that a campaign to enforce hijab and dress code rules was underway. What made this episode particularly sensitive is that some of the arrests reportedly took place in areas with large Shia populations in a city like Herod, which has a history of resistance and strong cultural ties across the border with Iran.

19:01And many people viewed the campaign as more than a routine policing and saw it as an attack on their way of life and identity. So, Mamoun, when it comes to women's rights, how central are ideas of women's rights and their role in society to the current Taliban leadership? The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs says that Taliban decrees and restriction have significantly limited women's access to basic services. In a report which was published in the end of 2025, the Taliban super leaders issued at least 470 decrees. According to this report, 79 decrees specifically target women and girls restricting their freedom in education, employment, economic participation in public life.

19:59According to the Taliban government, they have taken some steps that they claim protect women's rights, including confirming women's inheritance rights, emphasize a woman's consent in marriage. They claimed we are following Sharia. We are taking a decision based on that. As I said earlier, the Taliban's super leader enforced a highly conservative interpretation of Sharia, responding to public criticism that a lack of female doctors forced a pregnant woman to be treated by men doctors. But Khunzal said in an audio recording, look, I was not delivered by a doctor in his hospital, but at home by a family midwife.

20:43So I'm perfectly healthy. So he says there's no need for a woman doctor. But if a woman needs for a doctor, a woman can go to a man doctor. So although the Kabul group is a part of the Taliban movement, but they don't follow the same Sharia approach as the Taliban leader based in Qandar. So there's some difference. Yeah. Why are women's rights so central to Taliban's ideology? Based on my understanding, they believe if they give more independence to women, maybe that the society is not as they want to be safe. Why do you think this recent crackdown on hijab motivated people to finally come on the streets and protest?

21:30So according to some people that I spoke to, there were a few reasons. First, the detention of women carries a particularly heavy socialist stigma in Afghanistan, as you know. and can have long-lasting consequences for women and their families. Second, many Afghans have seen women's freedom steadily eroded over the past five years. And so these arrests become a symbol of rather frustrations, especially among women. And finally, Herod has traditionally been one of Afghanistan's more politically active cities. Even the majority of the protests by women took place in Kabul, but Herod has been known for being a politically active city.

22:23The combination of anger, community solidarity and concern for detained women appears to have pushed people to act despite the risks and the brutality they faced. And Masha, am I correct to think that Herat has always, I mean, historically also been more culturally progressive and it's a place where women usually in the family and in the city, maybe after Kabul, have more freedom? Yes, you're right. I mean, Herod has been very progressive. But the funny thing is that when I was in Herod a few months ago, and I didn't see any women not complying with the Taliban's dress code. many women you see in herod nowadays they are completely covered and when they say that they are not complying with the dress code and not wearing appropriate hijab and women were like absolutely puzzled and they were like saying so this is hijab what's your the definition what else do you want yeah exactly so it is not some some women think that this is not all about hijab it's about to suppress them.

23:37It's to completely erase them from social life and make them stay at home and don't leave their houses. That's what they say. Yeah. Mamoun, when you've done all this investigation into the Taliban leadership, do you think that such protests as we have witnessed in Herat and sporadically in Kabul could put the leadership in danger? Would it deepen the factions in the leadership? One thing we should know about the Taliban, leader is a core part of the Taliban's culture. Members are expected to follow orders from their superior, especially from the Taliban Supreme Leader, Ahunzada. But Ahunzada appears concerned about this internal opposition.

24:24So it's believed that in the future, he may avoid making a decision that would trigger a direct resistance from Taliban officially in Kabul. These disagreements have not reached a level where the two sides would take up arms against each other or engage in open conflict. But Al-Khundzalan, he believed, if there is some resistance from inside, it may mean this is the start of collapse as a government. I'm going to ask you both to answer this. Do you think that when you see these protests, Does it give you hope for the future that maybe change is possible? I think it's important not to overstate what these protests mean.

25:13The Taliban remain firmly in control, despite what Mamoun has been saying about disagreements and the cracks between the Taliban officials. And women continue to face severe restrictions on almost every aspect of public life. But what these events do show is that opposition to those restrictions has not disappeared. That's probably the hope for women. Even under intense pressure, Afghans are still finding ways to express dissent and support one another. And Herod was the recent example of that, that men and women understood side by side to express support. And I've been to Afghanistan recently so many times to different cities and especially speaking to young women.

26:04And the desire for freedoms remains very much alive among especially young generation. I believe it is a thought or sign of things. But the Taliban are afraid that these protests can make more people oppose them because of this. They try to stop the protests as much as they can. So that's why they use a lot of force on Inherat to stop this type of protests. Mahjouba Nourouzi and Ma'moon Durrani from BBC Afghan Services.

26:42If you're a regular listener to The Fifth Floor, it's great to have you back. If you're just catching the program for the first time, I should let you know that the fifth floor is at the heart of global storytelling on the BBC World Service, bringing you the best stories from BBC journalists from all over the world. They're always like half step away from a big breakthrough because it just takes one good acquaintance, right? One good opportunity for them to get access to something really important. It seems in most of the cases, in 90 or maybe even 99 % of the cases, it doesn't happen. But what if it happens?

27:19Journalists from the BBC's 43 language services are here to help you make sense of the world. Everyone online was talking about how there's a man who was in Kenya and he was going about in malls and really public places and meeting women. And somehow these videos had ended up online. We sort of built the evidence to suggest that it could be being filmed on smart glasses. to excite your curiosity. He's caught in a tug of war between uncompromising demands of his Islamist constituency and demands of governing a diverse society. So he's torn between those two tendencies. And to get to grips with the facts behind the headlines.

28:14The Iranian Jews who live here in Israel, they really want to see a different Iran. They want to see the sort of Iran that they left back in the 60s or 70s, one that had great partnership with Israel. That's all we've got time for today. If you want to let us know what you think about the show or you have questions for us, send an email to the5thfloor at bbc.co.uk. We love hearing from you. You can write to us at thefifloor, all one word, at bbc.co.uk.

28:57You've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.