Women in South Africa: 'We just want to be safe'

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1:48Hello, I'm Rob Young. Welcome to The Documentary. This time in BBC Conversations, we bring together women in South Africa to share their experiences of tackling violence. In the past three months, the bodies of nine women have been discovered near Johannesburg. Most were young in their 20s or 30s, and almost all had suffered extreme violence before their deaths. The murders have sparked an outcry across the country that more needs to be done to combat violent crime against women. a problem the government itself has described as a national disaster. I should warn you that later in our conversations, two of our guests describe their experiences of domestic abuse.

2:33One of the women who was killed in the recent attacks was out jogging when she disappeared, and the police have issued a public warning for women to be careful when running in the area. My colleague James Reynolds brought together Hannie from the Pirates Running Club in Johannesburg Johannesburg, and Elizabeth, another regular runner in the city. It's really heartbreaking, you know. These are people, these are people's mothers and sisters and relatives, and they had a story and they had a life, and that was cut short by the growing rates of the femiciles that is going on in our country. And it's very, very sad, and you kind of sit with it, and you think, OK, literally, am I next?

3:09Am I going to make it home today? Am I going to make it to work? Can I go to the grocery store? Like, what is happening? Yeah. I mean, they went out for their things in day-to-day life and they just never came home. It's about freedom and it just suddenly feels all very threatening and everyone's feeling very vulnerable. One of the victims was a jogger and you both are into fitness, you both are into running, trail running. How do you go about that pursuit at the moment, Elizabeth? You know, as it is, I'm already very vigilant. You know, my family has me on find my friends, so do my friends. they have my live location they know what I'm wearing I have about five or six roots mapped out in my head you know I make sure I don't have any jewelry on me before I leave the house or anything that'll draw attention to me even down to what I'm kind of wearing let me not wear like a crop top or shorts or anything too revealing so that I don't attract unnecessary attention to myself on my run I'll message my family and say listen if I'm not back in 40 minutes and half an hour you need to now start looking for me or get worried because this is how long it should be taking me this is the route I am taking.

4:15And even on the run, I'm constantly aware of my surroundings. You know, I'm checking over my shoulder all the time. How long has this car been following me? Okay, this man just crossed the street, he's running, or he's walking on the same path as me. Let me now quickly change my route. Let me run past, you know, quite a busier street where there's a lot of complexes and, you know, complex security. Let me just be in public and still trying to keep myself safe, you know, not get hit by a car. And when something should be so normal, it's just, you're just going for a run, you're just exercising, you're decompressing for the day.

4:46And even that gives me high levels of anxiety and high levels of stress. You know, as a running club, there's a lot of focus on safety already, like Elizabeth's saying that you do for yourself as well. So, you know, there is pace groups, there are sweepers at the back. We know who's going out and make sure that they're accounted for when they come back. But I think what's happening lately has also woken us up to make sure that we figure out whether we're really safe enough and look out for each other. On those runs recently, what kind of conversations have you had about the unexplained deaths of the women?

5:21You know, it's hit home. It's not in your nearest area, but it also feels very close. She was a runner. She went out. She never came home. Her eight-year-old daughter was missing her. But if we talk about the runner-in specifically, right? But who are these other women? What are their names? What were they doing? And I also feel like we're coming from a point of privilege, right? I have a car, I can decide if I go run or I go to the gym, I can afford an Uber Black, I can, you know, choose the gym. And this is not the case for a lot of women in South Africa. And they go about their daily lives in the early hours of the morning and it's dark and it's not safe.

6:04A lot needs to be done to make our area safer. You know, there's so many excuses that are brought up and it's, you know, it's, oh no, what were you wearing? What were you doing? Were you drunk? Were you this, were you that? That's not the case at all. And I hate, I really dislike that that's being pushed. That's agenda that's being pushed. It's really not. It's the problem that needs to be addressed. And the powers that be are not addressing it. It's, you should be able to come home. You should be able to go to the grocery store. You should be able to just go about your day without thinking twice it's like looking over your shoulder it's it's exhausting I'm tired that things have to go so far and be so escalated so far and so much for you know a little bit of action to be taken a little bit attention a little bit of attention excuse me to be given to the problem no I totally agree and we need safer roads better lighting you know safer public spaces better policing but the problem is also the acceptance of behavior so how women are treated by men.

7:02And, you know, people should report this wrong behavior. We need role models for our children, for our sons. I mean, I'm also a mom of three kids and it's like I fear for my daughters, but it's actually more important that I make sure that my son knows how to treat a girl. And I think it starts with adults laughing at the wrong jokes, you know, children seeing, not seeing role models at home or not being taught about this in school. We have the community around us. I actually feel pretty safe. I'm not from South Africa myself. I'm here for 20 years now and there's many reasons for me to live here.

7:37I mean, love the country, love the people. But this is just very shocking. Hany and Elizabeth, runners in Johannesburg. According to the United Nations, the rate at which women are killed in South Africa is five times higher than the global average. And a 2024 government report suggested that one in three women in the country had experienced violence from their partners. We're going to hear now from two survivors of domestic abuse. We've changed their names to protect their identities. In a moment, Lizzie, she's now a grandmother, first 29-year-old Mary. I had a boyfriend. Things were OK between the two of us until for a year.

8:20Then he started cheating on me. He would just shout and shout whenever you ask where he comes from. He is drunk. Until this one time, he came back drunk. As usual, it was around 12 o 'clock in the morning. We were yelling at each other until a slap landed on my cheek, a very hot one. Never did I know that it was the start of everything, the physical abuse, the emotional abuse and everything else that led to us breaking up. Whenever he's drunk, it's the yelling, the insults, and then he starts beating me. You don't know when you have done right because when you ask, you get a beating. when you don't ask, when you keep quiet also is the beatings.

9:05Mary, how long did the violence against you carry on for? For three years, four, three years. I once involved the authorities. He beat me and then I just went out. And then, in fact, before I went out of the yard, I called. I think because I was shaking, I couldn't, I missed maybe one number because it wasn't going through. Then where I'm staying, you have what we call the neighborhood watch. So the neighbor would watch. Normally it's the police cars. They just going around, just checking if there's no violence. So I went out that particular day. The police van arrived. And then they asked me, why are you sitting here alone at this time of the night?

9:48Then I couldn't say anything. I just started crying there. I cried. And then also I remember when I hand him to the police, when I open a case against him, It means that he's going to have a criminal record and then he won't work again. Instead, I just kept my mouth shut. And they kept on asking, ma 'am, what's happening? What's happening? I just couldn't say because I remembered he will be unemployed and all the frustration of being unemployed. Then it means that I'll get more beatings. And then I just went home and they followed me. They came after me and they found him outside. And then he started saying things that are not there, that I'm cheating on him.

10:27And whenever he talks to me, I talk back, such things. And then the police asked me whether I'm laying in charge or not. Then I said, no, I'm not opening the case. That's what you guys do. You type in and talk to him. They talked to him. And then after that, it was like just, I think, two weeks. And then he started again. He would say things like, go and call those police. You are dating them. They are your boyfriends. Go call those boyfriends of yours. It was just too much. And I couldn't tell family or friends. And he didn't beat me on the face. He just beat me on the body. On the face, you wouldn't see.

11:02I killed the scars. But then on the face, you wouldn't see. Just see a happy soul whenever you met with me because I was afraid of what people would say about me. What has the impact of those years of violence against you been on your entire life? A lot of things because now I no longer date because I think all men would do the same thing. Whenever someone shout, you shake, you hide your face. I hide my face because I think maybe a slap is going to land. We carry the scars. But now at least it's better because you can stand in front of people and then you tell them that, you know what, this is not the end.

11:43You are not the only one. When you see us, when you see me like this, I was one day. But now I survived. Here I am. I'm still here. and I left the relationship because you don't just walk away because there are threats that there's also emotional abuse because he tells you no one will ever want you no man will want a girl with a child no man will want a person who is this fat no one no man will ever look at you but then there are all there are men that still looks at you like a whole human being they want to be there for you and your child but you just can't let them in because of what now you feel you are more independent you don't need a man to leave you i'd like to bring in lizzie i know lizzie you have been abused yourself and mary mentioned the stigma in society about being abused the fact that that stigma means women don't talk can you tell us about that please lizzie it's true the women don't talk because of our culture normally with our culture they will say it's normal to be abused in marriages according to our parents if you have been abused it means your marriage is successful but it is not with our generation we don't stand for nonsense even though it takes time for us to quit you know because we have got that hope of saying uh maybe it will be okay and as a victim also you end up even blaming yourself to say like my husband he was a serial cheater he was not drinking liquor but you'll come in the morning then when you act like Mary saying you at fault why are you asking me when you don't ask why why are you cheating you know and that thing make me to hate men.

13:40So I just decided to say 17 years in the marriage, with no peace, I'd rather choose my daughter rather than him. Then I divorced him. You have helped Mary to make sure that she is okay. What has that process been like? We go through the same abuse. I cancelled her. I told her that men are not the same. She's still young. She can get married if she wants. She must not just give up on love. She's still young and beautiful. She's still going to find someone that is going to love her together with her child. It becomes very difficult. You don't just open up. You talk with the counselling. It doesn't just go away.

14:33Sometimes whenever you talk, You hide some things. You think that she's going to judge also. You just don't trust anyone. So it's not easy. But eventually everything went well. I'm okay. She really helped. I don't know where would I be if it wasn't of her. It's like she's saying in Africa, we are afraid to come out. They're always blaming women. It's always our fault. Whenever you come across someone also wanting to help, you think they're also going to judge you, forgetting that it's different. It's what they do. it's what they are trained to do. You also think, you know, what if she also think it was my fault?

15:09So it really helped. It has helped. It's still helping even now because if I can stand and also help someone who has been through what I went through, though I'm not much of a counsellor, but at least someone can come back to say, if it wasn't because of you, Mary, I wouldn't be here. She really did help. You have a nine-year-old son. As you bring him up, what kind of life do you hope for him? I hope he doesn't become like his father. I try as hard as I can to show him that even when the children are children, they bully each other. I always say you don't resort to fighting because his dad would beat his mother growing up.

15:51So I normally tell him that fortunately for him, he wasn't always with us. His dad would respect me. He wouldn't beat me in front of him. Whenever he remembers his death, he would always see his death as his hero. So I always try to tell him that whenever you see bullying, even if it's not been done on you, whenever you see a person bully another, you go and tell to report to an elder to tell them that there's this so-and-so fighting or so-and-so is bullying so that they don't grow up to be like his father. But because he didn't see his father doing all those things to me, He was this loving father whenever his child is around.

16:31So you try to talk to the child not to do such things so that he can turn out to be a good person. After my divorce, I have realized that my son has developed anger. He used to beat his girlfriend. I took him to counseling. And then besides counseling, I normally talk to him. It's not good to beat a woman. She's a human being like you. Wherever you have, you've got a misunderstanding. There are so many ways of resolving issues or conflicts, but beating is not necessary. He grew up in a very toxic family. He saw everything in the marriage that his dad was beating me in front of him. And that thing, when he speaks about it, you'll see the anger.

17:29And then to other young generations, either a girl or a boy, I normally emphasize communication. When you are not happy about something, just speak. And then when you are angry, try not to speak when you are angry, because now you'll never know the next person, how is he or is he going to respond to you? Try by almost to avoid fighting because you'll end up beating someone, you know, and you'll end up in jail. Lizzie and Mary in South Africa. You're listening to the documentary with me, Rob Young.

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19:26www.feyyaz.tv For our next conversation, we brought together South Africans who founded their own organisations to combat gender-based violence. Lynette is from Girls on Fire and Elmarie is the chief executive of Memeza Community Safety. My sister was murdered as a result of gender-based violence. She was murdered by her husband. That really changed the direction of my life. Coming from a corporate career, I reached a point where I needed to do something practical to solve this gender-based violence epidemic that we have in this country in some form. I cannot change what happened to my sister, but I can choose what I do with that loss.

20:04Was your sister's husband convicted? The sad thing is, James, he was, but he spent a minimum of two years in prison. That happens often. I work very closely with people like the River Rebecca Steenkamp Foundation, which works on the parole system which is broken in South Africa. and we have got some of the very bad perpetrators back into jail. So it's not a single approach. For us, it is to actually take action rather than activism, to teach ladies what to do to recognise when things are going to go bad. And then, obviously, when something happens, how can they protect themselves the best? I believe strongly in proper training, competence and responsibility and understanding the law.

20:49When it happens, can I get away? can I attract attention, can I get behind a locked door, can I call for help, or will I have to defend myself? And then obviously how to deal with the aftermath. I absolutely loved what Lynette was saying because it is exactly the approach that Mamesa has taken, although more driven from a technology point of view. So our approach is also how do we get tangible safety tools into the hands of women so that we can prevent, we can protect, and if the worst case happens, we can improve the response to gender-based violence. Unfortunately, where we are in South Africa, that every woman is a potential victim.

21:28And although it shouldn't have to be our concern to go to this length to protect yourself, this is where we are. So as Mamesa, we look at practical tools. We have personal alarms, technology like mobile applications, digital safety tools that we distribute to women and we join that with awareness education. technology doesn't mean anything if it doesn't have a result. So we built gender-based violence response networks around women. We make sure that we work with government, with the South African police services, community policing forums. And we make sure that when we give that technology to a woman and she does use it, there is a response.

22:09There's a physical response. There could be a social worker response, but there's a response that helps that women and either hopefully prevent what was going to happen or support her afterwards. We will definitely make contact with you, Elmerie. Are there different ways to protect women from, let's say, violence from a stranger late at night when they're walking back from work against the threat of violence from within the home? So for us, if you have a look at the crime and especially serial rape, serial murders in South Africa, it's a very opportunistic crime. And yeah, I think, James, to add to Lynette, some of the prevention tools we use are really, James, and it's not rocket science.

22:50It's really basic. It is make a loud noise. So our personal alarm makes a sound of 140 decibels and it will not stop until you put the pin back. So whoever is going to attack you is going to run away because that sound is not going to stop when you pull that pin. The same with a very simple thing like pepper sprays that we distribute, which is camouflage, that it doesn't look like a pepper spray. It would look like a lipstick, for instance. And then obviously the technology, mobile applications, unfortunately, your phone is the first thing that gets taken. So we don't only look at mobile panic apps, you know, where we can track your GPS, but we also want to give you other tangible things that you can use if your phone is taken.

23:28So definitely there are different tools, which we have seen definite evidence that prevention works. over the last 13 years of many, many pilots and, you know, really research done, we can for a fact say that it reduces the risk for women to go through gender-based violence. So avoid, avoid, avoid. That is your first line of defense. And that's why we teach, we go into detail about situational awareness. When things don't look right, then do something about it. Then if you can't get away, you might not be able to get anybody else to help you. You might be in an isolated place. And the only thing that I promote is safe firearm usage.

24:08And that is what we teach to actually use firearms and be equipped and then obviously legal firearm ownership and be trained. And that is one of the things that we do throughout South Africa is to train ladies to be able to defend themselves when they can't avoid the situation. Last, last, last resort. Normally, I would say, you know, I don't even want a firearm in my home. But what I'm seeing happening all over, I wouldn't even think twice of potentially sending my daughter to have that training. Because you don't want to lose your life in a situation like that. And truly, we still want to walk on the street and go for a jog.

24:49That wouldn't be my first option, but I understand why Lynette trains people on that. And I would say it's a good idea because you need to protect yourself and within the law, obviously, and using it very legally. I do feel that while society works on changing the perpetrator, which is men, I want to rather work on giving potential victims that knowledge to be able to defend themselves. We see a lot of good male allies and champions, you know, and the more that men will challenge men in this kind of behavior, I think the more it will help. There's a very big challenge to solve and it's going to take a long time.

25:27And as Lynette says, what do we do in the meantime? While we get men to come on board, while government is stepping up and saying we want to help, how do we make sure in the meantime do we keep ourselves and our daughters and our sisters and our mothers safe? And I think it's become that kind of crisis at the moment, which is very unfortunate. Elmarie and Lynette sharing their experiences of combating violence against women in South Africa. Thank you to them and all of our guests who've shared their experiences this week. We appreciate how difficult that can be. Well, if you've been affected by any of the issues raised, details of help available in many countries can be found at Befrienders Worldwide, www.befrienders.org.

26:11I'm Rob Young and you've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.