World Questions - Greenland

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2:34Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. I'm Johnny Diamond. In November, we recorded an episode of World Questions, which looked at the future of Greenland, with leading politicians and the public from across Greenland and Denmark. Since then, President Trump has repeated his desire to take over and control this vast Arctic territory, which is a former colony of Denmark, now part of the Kingdom of Denmark and the Faroe Islands. It has its own language and parliament, but it remains dependent upon Denmark for half its budget, and Denmark currently has control of key areas, such as foreign policy and defence.

3:15And Denmark is, of course, a member of the NATO Military Alliance. It's the world's largest island, extending more than 2 ,600 kilometres from north to south and over 1 ,050 kilometres from east to west at its widest point, a wilderness in the Arctic, most of which is covered in snow and ice all year round. Greenland's home to around 57 ,000 people, mostly Inuits, who live on the southern tip of the island. And it's been in the news ever since President Trump signalled his desire to buy it back in 2019. He continues to make that case, arguing ownership of the island is essential to international security.

3:58But could he also be eyeing up the natural resources that lie beneath the ice? Greenland has vast supplies of lithium, cobalt and rare earth elements, which are vital for making everything from mobile phones to batteries and electric motors. So is Greenland up for sale? And what about other issues like infrastructure, transport and mining for those who live there? Joining me to debate these issues and more and take questions from the public is our panel. Naya Nathanielsen is a Greenlandic politician of the Inuit Atagatiyit Party. She's currently Minister of Industry, Raw Materials, Mining, Energy, Law Enforcement and Equality.

4:42Quite a portfolio. She joins us from Nuuk, the capital of Greenland. Welcome, Naya. Louise Elholm is an MP in the Danish Parliament. She's with the Vestra Party, part of the governing coalition, and she's their party spokeswoman on Greenland. Good to have you, Louise. Kuno Fenker is a member of the Greenlandic Parliament, representing the opposition Nalarak party. Welcome, Kuno. And finally, Ulrik Pramged joins us from Rosgilde in Denmark. He's a senior researcher at the Danish Institute for International Studies and a specialist in Greenlandic-Danish relations. Thank you for joining us. Let's go straight to our first questioner, Michael Nilsson, museum curator in Greenland.

5:22Michael. Hello. My question is, where does Greenland stand geopolitically and is independence an option and a choice for the Greenlandic people? The last opinion poll showed 56 % in favour of Greenlandic independence, 85 % opposing the idea of takeover by the US or US sovereignty. Let me start with the minister, Naya Netanyilson. Is independence an option and a choice for the Greenlandic people? Well, I think it's essential to realise that Greenlanders have been talking about independence for decades now. For us, this is not a sprint, it's a marathon. And we've been working towards more independence for many decades because it is a goal for us.

6:06Geopolitically, we have always been of interest. We realized for many decades now that we are a part of the American sphere of interest, as well as we have been colonized by Denmark. So we are quite used to the outside attention on Greenland. And so it's a difficult question to answer shortly. But yes, we work towards independence. How do you marry the desire for independence with what is the current position of financial dependence on Denmark? Well, we are definitely working with our economy because we realise this is one of the key issues if we want to gain more independence. So Greenland is really pro-business, have been so for many years.

6:46We are pro-mining. We are working on extending our fisheries. We're working with tourism and so on, really trying to work with what we've got, because what we've got is resources. We don't have a lot of production in Greenland. So for us, working with economy is part of the work with independency, towards independency. But it's also important to realize we are not this is not the sole reason we get up in the morning. We are also concerned about expanding welfare for the people of today. Thank you very much, Minister Ulrich Premgel, the analyst from Denmark. Mark. Is independence an option? Is it a choice for the Greenlandic people?

7:23It depends very much, first of all, what you mean by independence. And secondly, whether you would take international law seriously, right? There's no question that under international law, Greenlanders are people that can choose their own destiny in that sense. The trouble is, of course, in the current geopolitical situation that we can worry whether Trump takes international law seriously. So that's one answer. The second complication is Greenland, like any country in the world, will never be totally independent of other countries. So it's very much a question of how to do economy, but also how to do governance and how to perhaps share some aspects of sovereignty like European countries does in the European Union.

8:10Thank you very much. Louise Elholm, Danish MP. Is independence an option? Is there a problem as far as Denmark sees it for Greenland peeling away from the kingdom? Well, I think it's up to the Greenlanders to decide what they want. But I do appreciate the relationship we have with Greenland. It's an old relationship and we have a huge part of the Greenlanders living in Denmark. So I do think we have a strong bond together. And we are happy to support Greenland as much as we can to make sure that they can have the same welfare system, hopefully, as we have in Denmark. I do think the Greenlanders can decide for themselves.

8:48I also agree that I'm not sure that all countries in the world have the same views and international law as we do. Do you think that being part of the Kingdom of Denmark protects Greenland to some extent from the desires of neighbouring countries on its sovereignty, on its resources? I definitely believe so. Being part of Denmark, Denmark is part of NATO. We have a defence cooperation in that way. And the European Union, which Denmark is also a member of, and also investing in Greenland. As I said, I do believe it's a Greenlandic choice whether they want to cut the bonds completely or still want to have a cooperation with us.

9:29Would you miss them if they went? I definitely would, because we have Greenlanders living all over Denmark. I grew up with a a Greenlandic neighbour. And it's part of our kingdom that Greenland is part of it as well. And the bonds between families, families are blended together with one Danish parent, one Greenlandic parent. And I do think we would miss a bond together. Thank you very much. Kino Fenke from the opposition Nelerak party. Is independence a realistic option? We don't use the word independence anymore. And we haven't used it for quite a while. We are using external self-determination statehood.

10:07And because independence in a way is utopia, Denmark is not independent. They are part of the supranational state, the European Union, and also part of many international organizations for their security guarantees and so forth. So what we need here is take away all the small feelings that you will miss us and it's a part of the kingdom and we will respect international law you annexed this country in 1953 and you colonized it in 1721. So let's take away all the good feelings and goodwill and so forth and take a look at the legal stuff. The legal stuff is that we as a people have the right to external self-determination and that's the decision of the Greenlandic people.

10:55And the Greenlandic people is a democratic representative democracy. The government of Greenland has the right to say to Denmark, we want to have more external self-determination. We want Greenland as our own legal country. Let's start the negotiations. It doesn't mean that we become, in your vocabulary, independent as such immediately. We will negotiate the terms with Denmark. It could be a free association. It could be many things. But right now, Denmark has the prerogative of defense, security and many other stuff. Hence, we are still a de facto colony. So if Denmark wants to adhere to international law, they should also adhere to decolonization laws.

11:46Can I just ask you, if you take that right, Kuno, if you take that right and you take control of your foreign defense policy, you assume, let's not argue over the words, sovereignty, then you also assume financial independence. and you say farewell to pretty impressive sums that Denmark sends your way every year. You're ready to do that. You're ready to pay the financial price. I don't buy that narrative. It depends on the negotiation. So it depends on... You think you'd still get money? You'd think you'd still get money, half the budget paid for by Denmark? It depends on the bona fide agreement that we have according to the self-rule law on how we should settle this.

12:23Of course, Greenland would need security guarantees from our allies. and we are in the North American continent and let's say that war breaks out in Europe. I don't think that Denmark will be able to help us immediately. Now they are building up the military here, but it won't be enough at all. So it depends on how we see the geopolitics here. And Greenland as a sovereign country can have a bilateral agreement with Denmark, but also the defense agreement with the United States from 51 could be a bilateral agreement with Greenland US. But also if we have a good agreement and a good negotiation with Denmark, it could be a trilateral, real trilateral agreement.

13:03So the possibilities are open. It's only a matter of how we negotiate. Thank you very much. Let's get back to our question. And Michael, what do you make of the answers? And let me have your opinion. Yeah, it's a very hard topic to get around and navigate in because there's all these agendas. But my point of view is that, of course, the majority of the people here want independence and want to make their own choices. But it depends on how. My opinion is maybe it's not realistic. OK, Michael, thank you so much. Thank you for your question. Thank you for your thoughts as well. We really appreciate it.

13:34Let's go to our second questioner. And it is Avarak Benstin from NASA in Greenland, but currently studying in Denmark. My question is, why are indigenous communities so often the one asked to bear the environmental and cultural cost of mining projects they didn't ask for? I'm thinking about like NASA for instance. Yes, forgive me, because your hometown has a specific issue at the moment, doesn't it? With a potential mine. Can you explain that? Yeah, I think that like our politicians knows about it. It's the Gwendoza project that I'm thinking about. We have like this thing that I'm against it. So I can tell you.

14:18OK, all right. I mean, it's about both rare earths and uranium, both of which are highly sought after. Kunef Enka, can I ask you from the opposition Nalarak party, the question, why are indigenous communities so often the ones to pay environmental and cultural costs for mining projects they didn't ask for? Do you accept that premise, that that has been the way it is and why it is? Yeah, I absolutely agree with Avara about that. And that's about the definition of Greenlandic people and indigenous people. And the government of Greenland has ratified the ILO 169 and UNGRIP through Denmark. Hence, we are not a state.

15:03It's Denmark that has the highest responsibility regarding international law and conventions. but the Greenlandic government as the responsible part here doesn't want to acknowledge indigenous people. They don't want to register who is indigenous people. It's a group right. It's an individual right. And hence, we don't know who is protected. Hence, we have a general government here in Greenland that is supposed to protect all people but also protect indigenous people and also people with disabilities, children and so forth, they have special rights, but indigenous peoples are protected. We have ratified the law, but we are not protecting them per se legally because the government of Greenland doesn't want to register them.

16:00And of course, the people in Nasa, they have to consent to mining projects like that. or even if it's like a very local area is a mine that is very close to a town, I think the town should have a democratic right or the whole country should have a democratic plebiscite or referendum in regards to yes or no to have these big projects. Thank you very much. Naya Netanyahsson, you happen to be Minister for Mining Resources. these kinds of decisions are enormously difficult for a place like Greenland as well, because your economy is sort of largely fishing, and yet you sit on a great mineral wealth at the same time, don't you?

16:48Well, I think the answer to the question is quite complex, because I totally agree with Avak in that you can see globally that indigenous peoples are usually not taken into account when mining projects are being formed. But in Greenland, I think it's quite different, because we are the majority. In Greenland, Inuit are the majority, and we make up the parliament and the government. And we have rules that have public consultations on mining. When it comes to the mining project that Abag is talking about, there was a strong debate about uranium mining, yes or no. And my coalition, former coalition, my party, decided to enforce a ban on uranium mining through law.

17:31and we are right now battling this case in the courts. But I think this shows that it works, that the rules work, that when there is an opposition or a worry, we have the ability, if we can pass the laws with the majority, as it should be in a democracy, we can get the laws needed. And we do have public consultations and are quite, quite, quite aware of the necessity of high environmental standards because it's so close to our culture. So I think we have very high environmental standards, very high standards when it comes to taking care of community involvement. And when I travel around Greenland, I always get the same questions.

18:15Is there a job for me? And do you take care of the environment? And if those questions cannot be answered satisfactory by the companies, they will get problems locally because they will not get the support they need to be able to follow through on their projects. Do you believe there is any trade-off to be had between economic development and environmental degradation? I mean, do you believe there is any balance between the two or is it always about protecting the environment? I think it's always about protecting the environment. I think we've been very true to form in Greenland throughout different parties.

18:51It's not a partisan issue. I think in Greenland, you are very much aware that environment matters. It matters for our fisheries. It matters for the local communities. It matters for our overall brand. We have been pushing for the green transition. We are very hard hit by climate crisis in Greenland. So we see the direct effects of not taking care of the environment on a global level. So I think we do take environment very serious. It does have a high ranking inside the government. It is something that is always of concern and always top of the list. And I think maybe even more so than many other countries.

19:28So I think we do have high environmental standards and it's not negotiable. Thank you very much indeed. Ulrich Pram-Gelt from Denmark itself, an analyst on the relationship. This is a potentially hugely important economic resource for Greenland, isn't it? But it is largely unexploited. The trouble is with a lot of these strategic minerals and critical minerals is that they are there in the ground. Some of them have value, but the value can only be realized by digging it up and having it processed and refined. And a lot of this procession and refining takes place in China. And a lot of the digging currently takes place in other places in the world where perhaps environmental standards are not as they are in Greenland.

20:15So in that sense, it's been really a hope for the Greenlandic economy for decades. But there's really not much movement, not maybe because of Greenland, but because of the global production chains. So there might be stuff happening geo-economically, geopolitically that will make it relevant to be mining in Greenland. But then Greenland still needs to compete with other jurisdictions in terms of the royalties, the environmental standards, the local engagement. And you think that that would rule it out economically because of the standards that Greenland would demand and because of the cost of digging and mining in such an inhospitable environment?

20:57I just see that there is a competition between jurisdictions. And I see that Greenland sits on incredible resources, but nothing happened so far. Louise Elholm, you're a Danish MP. This is technically part of your mandate at all, is it? But it's something you must have considered and presumably thought about whether or not the rich natural resources of Greenland are one of the reasons that the US is casting an eye over it. Definitely. I do think that it does have influence on it, because we can also hear that's one of the points that Trump is talking about. So I do think it's one of his considerations.

21:32But as Naya said, Greenland is open for business. Greenland is willing to work together with others who wants to retrieve the minerals. But it is a Greenlandic area. So I don't really discuss it in the Danish parliament. I respect the power that the Greenlandic people have over this area. Understood. Naya, I think you wanted to come back on a point, didn't you? Naya Netanyolson. A point, I think, is that there are things happening, but it's impossible to get the green transition on a discount. And I think countries are realizing this these years. It's true what Ulrich is saying, that if we were to go competition with China, it would be very difficult.

22:12But I think both Europe and the Western Alliance UK are realizing that you cannot get the green transition on a discount. you need to be able, if you want high environmental standards, you need to be able to pay the price and you want to do your business with countries you can rely on. So Greenland's, I think, the option we have is to really play hard on our environmental issues and say, you can get all the minerals here, but you need to make responsible mining that benefits the local communities. And I think that's our way forward. Thank you very much indeed. Kino. Yeah, I think I think the Greenlandic economy is something that you have to understand and dig into before you make assumptions that we can't stand up for ourselves.

22:57Because the whole financial system like insurance, mining, pensions, the whole system is regulated by EU, hence also Denmark. And we need to utilize all our resources here in Greenland, including mining, including fisheries, including tourism and so forth. But our main goal here, we have a self-rule law, which is a Danish law. And it's almost like the French colonial system. Because if we proceed and get over 75 million Danish kroner in income from mining, we will start to share the income with Denmark until the annual block grant is diminished in a way. So in a way, it's like a colonial system, colonial law that we have to get rid of in the beginning.

23:48We need to get out of the colonial economic system. Okay, okay. I want to get back to our question, Akuna. So I want to get back to our question. Avrak, what do you make of what you've heard? And what is your own experience and the experience of a community when it comes to mining? Yeah, I will be speaking to have my community, like people in Nasa. Like indigenous communities like us in Nassar are the ones asked to bear the environmental and cultural cost of this mining because of like deeper, deeper power imbalance and historical pattern of exploitation. In this case, as they talked about, the projects promise economic growth and access to earth minerals that are valuable globally.

24:32But us, the local Inuit, are the ones that have to live with the pollution and radioactive waste and a loss of traditional land and livelihoods. So us, people from Nassar and the area, we depend on clean water and fishing and sheep farming, which could be threatened by this mining. Yet the decisions about the projects were largely made by political and corporate actors far from the community itself, from us. They might say something else. I'm telling you my opinion about how. I understand. Yeah. And this reflects a broader global pattern where indigenous peoples' land are seen as sites for resource extraction rather than living environment tied to culture, identity and survival.

25:19We will be back with our panel and audience for more BBC World Questions Greenland shortly.

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