Would you want to live until 150?

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1:13Hello, I'm Rahul Tandon. Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service. In BBC OS Conversations, we bring people together to share their experiences, and this time it's with those who are living a long life. The inspiration for our conversations this week came after a microphone caught an unexpected private chat between the Russian president Vladimir Putin and the Chinese leader Xi Jinping when they met in Beijing.

1:50President Putin said that with the development of biotechnology human organs can be continuously transplanted, even, he suggested, achieving immortality. President Xi responded that there's a chance of living until 150. We'll discuss this with three researchers who offer advice for longevity and what to expect from science in the future. And I promise you, there's a joyous exchange when we bring together two Australian women aged 100 and 102. Did you say you still drive? Yes, I still drive. You drive and you're 100? 102. Oh, very good. Oh yes, well that's pretty good. I've given up. I stopped when I was 96, I think.

2:38Those ladies are so inspiring. Before we hear from them, let me introduce you to 95-year-old Joan, a retired teacher, born in New York during the economic crisis known as the Depression. She now lives in the US state of Florida. Elaine, she's 87, lives in California and still works in a shop. And the baby of this group, 82-year-old Ernest Ngana, a university professor who's worked in Africa and the United States. It's amazing to even think that I've reached this point in my life. I try to understand why God chose to keep me here. Life has been very exciting sometimes, and other occasions very emotionally challenging.

3:31But yet, today, you know, I can say I'm still feeling well. I don't know that there's a secret. I consider it a miracle. I did not lead the healthiest of lives. I smoked a lot. I did not eat properly according to the advice of medical doctors and dieticians. And I'm just so grateful. And the fact that I am 95 is a gift. I enjoy just being here. This is probably the most unusual thing that's ever happened to me. And as Ernest said, I wonder often, why was I allowed to live this long? What am I supposed to do to warrant all of these years? Hi, this is Elaine. I'm on one medication at 87 years old, a very mild diuretic.

4:29My doctors can't believe it. Can I explain why? I think a lot of it is I go to work four days a week all day long. My stamina is better than most people that I know younger. And I think a lot of it has to do with attitude, just being very, very fortunate. I have things wrong with me, but nothing that's going to kill me. and my lifestyle was never healthy as Joan. I did not watch what I was eating. I didn't do anything according to the books. I just lived my life. I don't feel like I'm 87. I don't think like I'm 87. I just like the energizer of money. I just keep going. I have to congratulate you for making it further than myself.

5:22I'm 80. now. I still feel quite well, even though there are medical challenges. I was fortunate to have parents who were very grounded in the Catholic faith. And so I grew up to put everything into the hands of the creator and in the midst of it all i enjoy every bit of my life even though there were many devastating experiences in my life i always surrender to the one who created me and in a way guided me throughout my life. Everything else I did was done not because I was fighting death, not fighting to live, but just simply to live a disciplined life. What you said is so profound. The fact that you go on and can see the positive side of everything is wonderful.

6:38I find that I have always been busy. I've been a lifelong learner and because of COVID, something called the internet grew a lot and they began Zooming classes. So I have been taking courses and meeting with people in classes. And between those two things, I have been studying also. I've been busy and intellectually stimulated and enjoying myself. And all I can say to you, Ernest, and you, Elaine, the best is yet to come. As you go on, it gets better and better. Thank you. You're welcome. It is so important to keep your mind going. Yes. To interact with people, because you reach a certain age, things stop.

7:33It doesn't. It stops because you allow it to stop. That's right. I have very few friends my age. First of all, most of them have died, unfortunately. Unfortunately. I mean, I had a large group of friends, and out of the large group, there's only three of us left. But I have young friends, and I find myself so privileged. that they want to be with me and part of their group. It's stimulating. They have things I learned from them. They learned from me. You just have to keep going and enjoy life. And every minute and every second, we've all been through very difficult times. We've all had terrible things happen to us, but you get past it and you put one foot in front of the other and you just keep on going.

8:27And the minute you allow yourself to sit in a corner and it's poor me, or at this age I shouldn't be, that's not in my vocabulary. Everything can still be, well, within limitations, let's face it. Okay. But it's still, we all, no matter what age, there are things you can stay involved with, things you can do. It's up to you as an individual what you want to do with it. I fully agree with what I'm hearing from here. I happen to be an intellectual worker, if you like. And quite frankly, there is no retirement when it comes to intellectual work. I still sit in my study every day as if I'm at work.

9:18I'm still doing research. I'm still writing. I'm still entertaining people I love to cook and so I create all kinds of dishes not from the textbook but from my head I do the cooking I started cooking at about 11 years when I was that young I learned to cook and I've improved on my cooking I would invite colleagues to come and join me for free life I love it. What struck me initially already is this huge positivity that you all have, which I'm sure is one of the reasons why you're so healthy and sound like you're all in your 60s rather than the ages that you are. But you have lost loved ones, and all of you will have seen some of your friends passing away, some of your family passing away.

10:14How difficult is that, and how do you keep going after events like that? Surely you lose a bit of enthusiasm for life? We've all been through tragedy. My husband left on an adventure trip on Sunday. I got a call Tuesday. He was dead. My son passed away a year and a half ago. I still feel that they're with me. To lose a child is the worst thing that can happen to you. But you can't live and allow the grief and the loss take over your life. you have to pick up your big girl panties, put one foot in front of the other, and you keep on going. And not sit and feel sorry for yourself. I have a daughter.

11:02I have grandchildren. I live for them. Somebody at work yesterday, a woman looked at me. She said, you mind me asking how old you are? and I told her and she said how are you so happy and I said because I'm thankful for every day I am on this earth right and I think with age that comes where you just have to keep on moving through life no matter what life is thrown at you. Elaine, Joan and Ernest with their advice to enjoy every minute. And just in case there is any doubt, I should say that if you want to live to an old age, then smoking is definitely not recommended by scientists. In a moment, we'll hear what is recommended from three experts in the science of ageing.

11:52I'm Rahul Tandon and this is BBC OS conversations from the BBC World Service.

12:25Snow's History Hit podcast, I want to tell you about a brand new series I don't want you to miss about the real history behind The Odyssey. With a major new Hollywood adaptation arriving this month, we'll trace Odysseus' epic journey across the Mediterranean, uncover the world of Mycenaean Greece, and investigate the mysteries of Homer and what draws us back to this timeless masterpiece again and again. For everything you need to know about The Odyssey, check out Dan Snow's History hit wherever you get your podcasts. Next, let's get a bit of science. We brought together three distinguished researchers who are well versed on living a long life and anti-aging.

13:04Sandra Kaufman is senior anaesthetist at a children's hospital in California and author of the Kaufman Protocol, why we age and how to stop it. David Sinclair is a professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School, also in the United States. And Nicola Conlon is a UK-based molecular biologist specialising in the study of cellular ageing. Fundamentally, what a lot of longevity research is focused on is really looking at how we can improve our cellular health because what we really realise is that everything to do with ageing, whether that's the way that we see changes to our skin or the way we see changes to our energy levels and our cognitive function, And ultimately, everything starts deep within our bodies at the cellular level.

13:51So a lot of this research within the longevity field is really looking at how we can improve cellular health. Because if we can improve the health of our cells and make them act a bit younger, then it improves health across the entire body. The old idea is that aging was just the body wearing out and eventually getting diseases and you die. But what we've proposed is that information that you get from your parents that includes not just your genetic component, but what's called epigenetic, which is the control systems of the DNA that turns on and off the genes. That gets messed up, gets corrupted.

14:23And what we found and published in 2020 was that we could, for the first time, safely reverse that process and reinstall this new epigenetic software so that cells could be younger again permanently. And we use that to cure blindness in mice. We've now done that in monkeys and humans will be in January. This is just one example of amazing technologies that are coming online and hopefully will be available to millions of people in the coming decade. Can I ask you, Sandra Kaufman, a personal question? You're the author of Why We Age and How to Stop It. What are you doing on a daily basis? If you have any tips, please do let me know.

14:58We have deficiencies as we get older. So supplements are key on a daily basis. Medications are key on a daily basis. I truly believe that pharmaceuticals can be repurposed instead of treating disease, but to avoid disease. So every day I wake up, I have three sets of supplements and medications that I take. I'm a firm believer in diet and exercise, and you book cardiovascular exercise, as well as strength training for muscle and bone. And then once a week, I recommend massages, increases blood flow to tissues. Everyone loves that one. I think what's been one of the most surprising things is that although we hear a lot of people talk about, you know, some quite advanced therapies and medications and organ transplants and crazy things like that, And fundamentally, what we still know is that some of the really basic lifestyle things that we know are good for us are actually really good at reversing what we know is our biological age.

15:52So that's the age that our cells are on the inside. It's the age that we truly are compared to our chronological age, which is just the age according to our birth certificate. Simple things that are accessible to everyone, like diet, can have a huge impact. Is it more fresh food, more vegetables? Should we all give up meat? Would that make us all live a little bit longer if we're all vegan? No, we definitely don't need to all be vegan. The three key things would be firstly, really cutting out ultra processed foods. We know this is incredibly pro inflammatory and any inflammation in the body will drive the aging process.

16:24We know that for a fact. The second thing is not becoming vegan, but actually increasing the amount of plants in your diet. So we know that if you can eat around 30 different plant materials each week, so this is not you know just fruit and veg it can be nuts seeds herbs spices all the different molecules and polyphenols and beneficial things that are in those plants actually can help to reverse the aging process in ourselves to lower inflammation across the entire body even sometimes to the point of when we eat our foods you know not constantly eating throughout the day and practicing things like intermittent fasting and these are things that most people can implement without too much extra cost or having to do some crazy unknown therapies or anything like that.

17:14Like some of these conversations that we have living till 150 is a distant dream or is that wrong David are we going to see great improvements that means in the next 40 or 50 years we will see a lot more people at least living over the age of 100. I think it's very possible especially for kids that are born today. Right now, it's very rare to become a centenarian, someone who lives over 100. But children born today, even if we don't have any major breakthroughs, will have a 50-50 chance of making it to 100. So it's not really science fiction anymore. And it's the only question of when these technologies come on board.

17:50Of course, eating plants and exercising, which I try to do, will not get us to 150. It's these other breakthroughs of reversing aging and slowing aging that will eventually get humanity there. But will it happen in our lifetime? Well, we don't know that. But the best thing to do right now is to stay healthy, to stay alive, and to give yourself a chance at being around for when these technologies actually arrive. And there are lots of people working on this with billions of dollars behind these companies. So it's going to happen. Whether or not it happens in our generation or our children's or their children, we just don't know yet.

18:21David Sinclair, Nicola Conlon and Sandra Kaufman. As David mentioned, it may be rare to live to over 100, but we're about to hear from two people who have. In fact, in the five and a half years we've been making BBC OS conversations, these are our oldest guests. Both live in Melbourne, Australia. Janet is 102 and Mifanwe is 100. I asked Janet first, what has changed since she was born in 1923. Just normal travel, cars, planes, everything like that is quite normal. Television we've got and radio. It's been amazing to watch the changes over the years, watching the children grow up and the grandchildren and the great-grandchildren and the great-great-grandchildren.

19:14They've been such a pleasure. For you, Mavanwui, what has been the biggest change that you've seen in 100 years? Well, I've seen life becoming very far more complex. Shopping, living, everything. It's more complex, yes. Janet, do you agree with that? Yes, to a certain extent. I'm lucky I still drive and don't have any trouble. so I can get out a lot more easily than a lot of older people. You're still driving. When did you pass your test? How many years have you been driving now? Oh, 80-something, I suppose. Oh, my goodness. It seems a long time, doesn't it? I have to drive around the block to get my licence with the policeman.

20:08Mufanwi, has it been difficult to adapt to all the changes that you've seen in your life? Oh, I wouldn't say it's difficult. You take life as it comes. No, it's just accepting things as they change. I live on my own. I have a great deal of help. My daughter's wonderful. She looks after me. I have meals on wheels, which means three meals a week are delivered. So my life isn't that difficult, really. Yes. You cook the rest of your meals yourself? Oh, I don't do very much cooking, but I do some. I cook green vegetables. That's what I do cook. Yes, great idea. Yes, yes. But I manage to make my meals delicious.

21:00I know how to add sources and add this and that. I don't have any complaints. Can I ask you both a question here? I'm a little younger than you, not a lot younger, to be honest. But the biggest change I've seen is the internet. When you were growing up, Janet Fursley here, did you ever imagine you'd see something like the internet? No, didn't even dream. But we did have films which were sort of opening our eyes to what was perhaps coming. And some of them were very imaginative. What was the first film you saw? Do you remember? Not the vast idea. I could remember my first film, if I'm being honest.

21:45Mavanwee, what about the internet for you? Incredible invention. Has it made your life easier? In some ways, yes. In some ways, no. I think it's a great advantage. It's wonderful. I'm not very good with it, but I manage nevertheless. No, it's a great invention, though. It keeps us quiet and we probably need to be kept quiet. We don't want you to be quiet now, though, so let's have no quietness at all. When you both turned 100, were you very proud? No, it seems to happen I'm amazed that I've reached 100 I never expected to And here I am, still alive That's how I feel Oh, it's fun And I'm very lucky I've got a lot of grandchildren And great-grandchildren I don't have any grandchildren But that doesn't bother me I enjoy life very much I go out a lot I don't sit at home I go to films, have lunches and go out.

22:58I'm very happy. I have everything I need, you see. What about you? Oh, I go out quite a lot. I cook myself. I still like cooking. I like three meals a day. Very good for the body. And I like my drink before dinner. Did you say you still drive? Yes, I still drive. You drive and you're 100? 102. Oh, very good. Oh, yes, well, that's pretty good. I've given up. I stopped when I was 96, I think. Oh, dear. Yes. So how do you get round? Oh, I take taxis wherever I need to go or my daughter drives me. Oh, that's lovely. Can I ask, why do you think you both reached 100 where some other people around you didn't?

23:49Well, I tell people that it's because I didn't really like exercise and I like three meals a day and a brandy and dried ginger before dinner at night. That keeps me very well. Oh, well, I feel about the same. I don't smoke or drink. Maybe that helps. I don't know. Does it ever cross your mind why you have reached 100 and maybe some of your friends haven't? I suppose I realise it, but I don't think of any reason for it. I don't think so. I need a fairly measured sort of life that helps. That's all. How about that? Yes, I lead a very busy life a lot of the time. I don't think anything contributes to it.

24:43It's just sheer good luck. As you get older, and I do this sometimes, I have to be honest about this, because I lost my father this year. Do you think about death at all? Not much. I don't have any ideas of an afterlife. I think when we come to the end of our life, that's the end. And it doesn't worry me at all. As long as I'm having a good life, I don't worry about it. It will come to an end like everything. That's all. I think we're both very lucky. I don't worry. I have really no worries at all. Janet, you're 102. two. President Xi said he thought people could live to 150. Could you be the first?

25:31I have no inclination. Think how doddery and staggering you'd be. I have to use a walking stick now for the last 12 months. That's bad enough. Mavenwi, you are the baby of the two. Are you 150? Does that sound appealing, do you think? No, not really. Not at all. I've had a very long life and I think 150 is too long. I'm quite happy as things are. I don't want to live forever. Not at all. Listen, it's been a wonderful conversation. Would you like to say goodbye to each other? Maybe some plans to meet up for a cup of tea? We'll leave you to say bye and sort it all out. It's been a pleasure talking to you both.

26:17Thank you very much. Thank you. That's been interesting for me too. I'll give you a ring. Yes, do that, Janice. We can talk without him talking to the BBC. Yes, that'll be very nice, Janice. Look forward to that. Much more relaxing. Bye. Yes. Bye-bye. Bye. The fabulous Janet and Mifanway in Melbourne, Australia, who plan to continue their conversation without the world listening. Thanks to them and to all our guests this week. It certainly inspired me to think about being a little bit more healthier, having a little bit more focus in life, and being a little busy like Janet and Mifanwe. I'm Rahul Tandon, and you've been listening to the documentary from the BBC World Service.