Wynton Marsalis: The sound of democracy

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1:20Jazz music, one of the foundations of it is blues. and the blues is not closed-eyed optimism. It's open-eyed optimism. But the one thing the blues is not, it's not whining.

1:32Wynton Marsalis:From the BBC World Service, this is the documentary in the studio. I'm Leo Hornack and I'm in the studio with one of the great American musicians of the last 40 years, the jazz trumpeter, bandleader and composer, Winston Marsalis. The blues encourages you to always face the difficulties and bring yourself to it in your will and you have to not be redirected philosophically and you have to have strength. These are challenging times, but times are always challenging and the question is always, what do you bring to those times?

2:15Wynton Marsalis:Since the 80s, he's been known as one of the finest trumpeters in jazz history and equally successful in European classical music. He's won the prestigious Pulitzer Prize and many Grammy Awards. There are even statues of him in France and in Spain. But when you've been at the top for years, when the statues have been built and the awards won, when whole generations of younger players look up to you? How do you stay motivated? How do you keep your direction as a creative artist?

2:48Wynton Marsalis:This year I was granted unusual behind-the-scenes access to Winton and the band he's most famous for leading, the Jazz at Lincoln Centre Orchestra, as they rehearse ahead of their 2025 European tour, including the London premiere of a piece Winton calls The Democracy Suite, a piece for challenging times, political times. Yeah, this is going to be a fun one. This is going to be a really fun one. And rehearsals for the performance start in their headquarters by Central Park in New York City at 10 a.m. on a Monday. We are in VLS Recording Studio here at Jazz at Lincoln Center. We currently have a 15-piece big band orchestra set up.

3:32Wynton Marsalis:Greg McCrawson is the manager of the orchestra, one of the first to arrive in the morning. He needs to be, making sure everything is perfect. And as you can hear in the background right now, we have a soprano saxophone warming up, a trombone warming up, upright bass warming up. And even though he's been working here for years, when he speaks about Winton, there's still a certain awe in his voice. He's an incredible musician, and he's an incredible leader, and an incredible educator. so I think all these guys, they want a chance to work with him. Winton's a busy man, so we've been told that we can't be sure when he'll be free for an interview during these rehearsals.

4:10Wynton Marsalis:But the rehearsals themselves are a real chance to see him at work, up close, creating a performance in a statement with the whole band as his canvas. It's something else to see it in front of you. You know, when you listen to it on Spotify or you listen to it on a CD, it's fun to hear it, But when you visually see how it all comes together and see the professionals rehearse, you just have a totally different mindset about the music.

4:46Wynton Marsalis:We're in a huge state-of-the-art recording studio. A grand piano on one side, music stands and folding chairs in rows on the other. Support staff busy about, setting up sandwiches and bagels on a table for the musicians. And as we speak, the players are arriving one by one, wrapped up tight against the Manhattan winter, sipping coffee, swapping fist bumps and hugs, unpacking saxophones. I'm told Winton arrives a little later than everyone, so that things are ready to go the moment he steps through the door. So, yeah, we ultimately will have Winton. And he traditionally sits in the back in the trumpet section.

5:24But because we're doing septet rehearsal, he's going to be in front probably to Chris's left.

5:29Wynton Marsalis:It feels casual, like a reunion, the first day back at work. But being part of this band is one of the most prestigious jazz gigs in New York, which is to say the world. Many of the players warming up in front of us are solo artists in their own right, leading their own bands and recording their own albums. But they gather here for Winton. My name is Isaiah Thompson, and yeah, I play the piano. We're going to be playing and rehearsing some of the Democracy Suite this morning. This is a new piece for me. I've heard it, but this is definitely new for me, yeah. Any nubs? Always. Always. Absolutely.

6:08Sherman Irby. I'm an alto saxophonist for the Jazz Legacy Center Orchestra. You know, I'm privileged to be out here. My name is Alexa Tarantino. I'm a saxophonist. I have played the Democracy Suite a few times now with Wyndon. And of course, he's probably one of the most technically proficient person on his instrument. But he really just brings the human aspect, the depth of emotion and character and personality that he brings.

6:42Wynton Marsalis:50 or 60 years ago there were a handful of jazz masters who commanded the kind of public fame that Winton now has and could be a spokesperson for their tradition, their community and their art names like Duke Ellington Louis Armstrong Ella Fitzgerald and Miles Davis now it feels like Winton and this band might be the last part of that living tradition Leaning on the piano is Carlos Enrique He started playing with this band when he was 17. Now he's 42. And for all the casual, friendly atmosphere, there is a challenge here. This week is the only chance the group will get to rehearse all the music for the whole tour.

7:24Wynton Marsalis:If they can't get complex pieces like the Democracy Suite up to Winton's standards now, there won't be many other chances before the European premiere in London. We just had a high school, about 25 students, walk in to observe. Is that normal to have, you know, high schools come in and watch the musicians? It is. You know, it's great to see it all happen in real time. See the kids appreciate it. And just a minute ago, a guy in a little blue beanie hat, jeans and a check shirt walked in, carrying a trumpet. And that is Winter Marsalis himself. And as he walked in, there was a little bit of a silence.

8:06Wynton Marsalis:You could see from all the teenage high schoolers, there's a bit of a reaction, kind of like a little, it's him, kind of moment as he walked in. He's very casual, catching up with the band, finding a place to put his Starbucks.

8:28Wynton Marsalis:The last of the great jazz trumpeters takes his seat. Not at the front of the stage, like a classical conductor or a lead rock guitarist. Away from the centre of attention, at the back, amongst the other musicians. This is music about democracy, after all. The first piece of the Democracy Suite is lined up. Silence falls. And then Winton counts off the tempo, and it begins.

9:06Wynton Marsalis:Winton was born into music, the son of a jazz pianist from New Orleans who knew many of the legends of the 50s and 60s. Three of Winton's brothers are also musicians. I've been playing gigs since I was eight. I've been blessed with the opportunity to do what I wanted to do. I saw my father and them playing for no people. and it left an impact on me. Like you could be able to play and nobody could be at your gigs. So I don't walk out of any gig that people have paid money for a ticket and are sitting down to hear me and us play. I don't need to psych myself up. I'm psyched up. You said with the Democracy Suite, jazz is the perfect metaphor for democracy.

9:49Wynton Marsalis:Yeah. Could you just explain that? The biggest problem in any government is how can you get the elites to control themselves? It was a problem in Greece, Rome. I don't care where you look. Egypt, those elites, they want to be kings and they want to be gods and they want to be. And they're not, but they want to be. So it's too irresistible to use your intelligence or your power or something to exploit people, take their resources, make them work for you, exploit. And then there's the other side. People got out of slavery. They learned how to read. They fought for their businesses. They fought for their freedom.

10:27And they continue to do that. and they continue to do it. But if you think you don't have to get out on that ledge and fight every day and agitate for the equality of others, not necessarily yourself, a democracy demands that you do that. And how does jazz come into being a metaphor for that? Well, the drums can play louder than everybody. Are they going to play soft enough for you to hear the bass? The bass now can get an amp and just turn it up and be as loud as... are they going to not do that? Are you going to try to figure out how to play with different people that are not exactly like you?

11:04Are you going to try to learn songs of other traditions and still deal with your tradition? Are you going to learn how to swing and play in time when you don't have to do that? So there are many other ways, you know, because the music is always the balancing of opposites. Relationship of the bass and the drums, the loudest and the softest, the highest pitch and the lowest pitch. How do I create melodies in this context? Like, you have to regulate yourself. Just the length of your solo alone. I've seen so many rhythm sections. The rhythm section, they play a cycle. And when you get to the end of a cycle, when they want you to stop, they breathe.

11:37They go, and they recommit themselves to playing. Man, horn players will run through that cycle a million times, especially if the rhythm section sounds good. Just stop playing. Let somebody else play.

11:47Wynton Marsalis:This is the documentary in the studio from the BBC World Service. Investing with Schwab is like spending a Saturday at a great farmer's market. You can fill your reusable tote with a bit of everything. Maybe you go for some free-range self-directed investing. Or perhaps you pick up a few farm-fresh trades while you peruse. You can even get help from a dedicated advisor. That's full-service wealth management. Mix, match and change your mind whenever you want. Because at Schwab, you can invest your way. No matter your goals or appetite for investing, Schwab has everything you need all in one place.

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12:58I have a feeling I know what it's going to be like.

13:03Wynton Marsalis:In the rehearsal, one section of the Democracy Suite is causing problems. The pianist is new to the piece, isn't yet playing his part in the Afro-Cuban style that Winton imagined. So Winton demonstrates at the piano, showing how he'd like the part to be played, and then switches into his role as educator, suggesting Cuban pianists to study to improve the performance.

13:29Wynton Marsalis:It's a quiet, friendly, but also deadly serious exchange. There's not long to get this right. OK, break. Looks like it's 15 to 5. The band have been playing a while, and most of them use the break to stretch their legs or grab a bagel. But Winton doesn't take a break. He wanders straight over to the rows of high school students who've been watching the rehearsal for the last hour and begins taking questions from the teenagers. They are gripped, focused, dead poet society style. How much do you practice? Who's your favourite artist? How do I know if I should become a musician? Wintam responds with an answer about the positive frame of reference he uses for teaching.

14:19Another thing is to think in the positive frame of reference. I was teaching a kid a long time ago. I'm 63 now. At that time I was 23.

14:28Wynton Marsalis:Earlier I'd also seen a couple of the high school students crowding around Carlos Enriquez, the band's bass player, asking questions, even holding his bass. A spontaneous masterclass. After they leave, Carlos explains that this is normal for him. Well, listen, that's how I joined. That's how I got into this whole orchestra. As a young high school student, I used to attend the rehearsals. We would go up to the 10th floor and there would be rehearsals just like this. And I would sneak out of class with a couple friends of mine, which is very naughty, but I did it and I got to meet these cats. The good thing is I used to hang out with the bass player and sometimes the bass player would either have to take a break, and he knew that I played bass, so he would say, hey, just play this part while I come back.

15:17So that helped because Wynton would see me and be like, oh, man, he knows what he's doing. So then one thing led to another. I became Wynton's very good friend, and then, you know, it's crazy. I mean, now I'm 45, and, you know, my firstborn, Carlos, Kiko, he's the godfather. But this is, you know, it's crazy, it's crazy, it's crazy.

15:37Wynton Marsalis:So this is going back generations in a way. Yeah, this is going way back. And Carlos' story is also proof of Winson's vision of jazz as a special democratic space where cultures can blend and learn from each other. The good thing about what I was dealing with is that as a young student in high school, I was playing professionally. I was working with Eddie Palmieri, Tito Puente. That's what I was doing. Tito Puente and Eddie Palmieri are some of the great stars of Latin music. and I wasn't really in the jazz world but I wanted to get in there I met Wynton through telling him hey I play with Tito and I play with Eddie he's like oh wow you know so he embraced me with the notion of you know this kid knows so much about this style of music you know so I said look I'll help you with some Latin stuff you help me with some jazz stuff and that's how to this day that's how we function I guess my last question is what are your like hopes for this tour yeah I I mean, well, I mean, the one thing is I want to lose weight on this tour.

16:39Every time I go on tour, I gain at least 10 pounds. So I'm hoping that I can figure out something on this tour. So I've been messing up, but, you know, the cats, we all get together. We try to maintain a healthy lifestyle.

16:51Wynton Marsalis:Be careful of those fish and chips in London. But, no, I mean, other than that, it's, you know, it's a beautiful thing to be around Wynton. You know, any time we get to hang with him. and Winton's world is still creating quiet unspoken opportunities for young musicians as the rehearsal winds down Carlos points me to a young guy sitting shyly next to the drum kit my name is uh Vinton uh I'm here just uh taking in the rehearsal not listening that's I mean you sat in and played the drums on one of those numbers so you went just listening yeah yeah um And Obed had to run out, so I filled in for him for a minute on one of Carlos' tunes.

17:35Wynton Marsalis:And how long have you been playing the drums? I started when I was three, like in church. And then in the fourth grade, I started to pursue jazz. And then I just went on to become a jazz drummer. That's right. 20 years old and 17 years performing experience. I hadn't expected to learn that this band and rehearsal space is only partly about preparing for tours and concerts and recording sessions Quietly, Winton has also created a space for handing on jazz and African American culture the old way as an oral tradition teacher to apprentice, mentor to mentee but in fact, that's no accident A day later, after the end of rehearsals Winton's publicist ushers me into his private dressing room and office on the other side of the building, next to the main concert hall stage entrance.

18:30Wynton Marsalis:This feels like an inner sanctum. There's a piano in one corner, a coffee table with a chessboard on it, with the pieces set up in a chess problem. Winton's reading glasses are next to it. A tuxedo is half hanging on one chair. And on the wall above the piano, there are three framed black and white photos, arranged like a shrine so that they look down on the room as Winton prepares to go on stage. Each photo is of a black jazz trumpeter from the 1940s or 50s, dressed in sharp suits and wreathed in cigarette smoke. In our conversations so far, Winton's been polite but guarded. But then I ask about the nearest photo, a portrait of Harry Sweets Edison.

19:17Man, that's my mentor. You see, he's up there. that's my three guys that mentored me in high school Sweets Blue Mitchell and Clark Terry Sweets that was my man of all time I met him I was 13 and I hung with him I can tell you anything you want to know about him man I mean we always hung he was funny so he was always cracking jokes he loved flirting with the ladies you know that was his thing one time he took me to his hairdresser and he said And he said, I'm going to see, baby boy, you can't leave this hairdresser until you get somebody's number. I said, OK. So I went to the hairdresser. I said, ladies, we have a big concert tonight.

20:00Anybody who wants tickets, just give me your number and I'll make sure you get tickets tonight. I got out of there with like 10 numbers. Sweets was like, you dog, you. But I can just tell you so many stories about him.

20:19Wynton Marsalis:Even today, when Winton plays slow tunes, you can still hear the mark of Sweet's Edison's style in Winton's playing. Man, them guys made of gold. Like, just the soul of them and the way of their playing and the feeling of it. But, you know, it's old school, man. Just, like, very personal. Very full of a lot of love and feeling. And I could just, I could go on and on about him, man. then they you have to also remember too they're very conscious like they they understood what was what was going on you mean culturally politically politically culturally intellectually very conscious because it felt quite relevant because right now i see that you have this huge range of generations in the band here and and around yeah yeah we've always had a lot of people of all the ages around us.

21:14So the older musicians, we first played the big band, played with Duke Ellington, and we were all in our 20s. We always had a mix of generations. So our concept has always been inclusive of all this. A lot of the young ones, really young ones, yeah, more like my kids. I knew them when they were 13 and 12 and 14. Even Carlos. Carlos used to be sitting in rehearsal when he was 13 or 14. We've always been in that environment of everybody together.

21:47Wynton Marsalis:I spoke to Carlos yesterday and I saw him doing the same thing. Some of the high school students kind of gathered around him and he was showing them, even handed his instrument to one of them to do things. And I could just see the kind of electrified faces. I couldn't quite believe this was happening. We do that our way. I mean that's our tradition but it's a more familiar thing that we're doing we keep the feeling of what Ellington's band had or Basie