AMY PORTERFIELD: Preserve Space with Non-negotiables

0:00Look what I've done for us. And he's like, I would trade everything we have to have more time with you. That's when he brings me wide open.

0:10Hey, I'm Michael Hyatt. And I'm Megan Hyatt Miller. And this is The Double Win Show, a show about winning at work and succeeding at life. You know, here at Full Focus, we have identified nine life domains that you can cultivate to help you be the person that you want to be and live the life that you want to live. Those are body, mind, and spirit, love, family, and community, and money, work, and hobbies. Today, we're excited to introduce one of our best friends, one of our best buddies, and somebody that we've learned a ton from, and that's Amy Porterfield. She has become a really close friend of our family.

0:47She and her husband, Hobie. She's a private coaching client of mine and somebody that we just love hanging around. In fact, I've almost adopted her as a sixth daughter. I know we jokingly call her Mamie because that's Amy with an M in front of it since all of us girls have M names. That's exactly right. So Amy's got an extraordinary story. She's built one heck of a business, a multimillion dollar business. It's an Inc. 5000 company. Proud to say she's a client. She's also a former corporate professional working with mega brands like Harley Davidson and Tony Robbins, creator of the highly successful online course, DCA or Digital Course Academy, which if you're thinking about creating a course, we highly recommend.

1:31We've had our entire team go through it and it's been great. She's the host of the online marketing made easy podcast, author of the New York Times bestseller, Two Weeks Notice. She's been featured in a lot of major media. And again, she's just a dear friend. And I think you're going to love this conversation. So fun. Amy, welcome to the show. Well, hello, my friends. I feel like this is just a Saturday night for us. I know. It was fun. If it was, we would be wearing our comfy clothes. True. Let's be honest. And probably a glass of wine. Probably. Yes. Well, I already said this in the intro, but you're not only a client, because I've been coaching you now for a couple of years, but more importantly, you and Hobie are two of our best friends.

2:13And I was telling somebody the day I said, you know, Amy could literally be one of my daughters. We have jokingly called her Mamie. I would be the oldest just to put it out there. But yes, and I am Mamie. The whole family calls me it. That's right. All my daughters, for those of you who don't know, have a name that starts with M. Or I said, you could be my sister. True. My really younger sister, because you and I map almost identically on all the personality stuff, the Enneagram stuff, our, you know, things we struggle with, all of that. I love when you say that. Whenever you say I'm like you, it makes my heart burst because I'm such a fan and such a dear friend.

2:51So I agree that we really could. Awesome. Well, we've got a lot to talk about and I know that you're committed to the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life. Absolutely. And so we want that to be the focus here. But I think what we want to start is what are your non-negotiables? you know yeah because i think this is important because you know sometimes when people are thinking about the double win yes they set an impossible standard for themselves you know it's like i want to be the best in every domain i'm going to do all the things and it's just not realistic and for me one of the secrets of getting the double win pretty consistently is just saying everything isn't at the same level of importance there are these few things that if i can check these boxes, I feel like I'm in a good place.

3:36It's not maybe like the ultimate, but it is the short list, two or three things that are non-negotiables for me. So what are those for you? You know, while you were talking, I was thinking non-negotiables are so personal. Like where you are in the season of life, what's going on. And so mine have changed so much over the years and I've been using non-negotiables for at least 15 years now. And so where I am in my life right now, I have a husband who is retired, as you both know, and I have a son that's in college. So we have a lot of free time if I'm not working, but I love to work. And I could work all day long and feel very fulfilled.

4:15And then I have a husband waiting for me at five o 'clock, hoping he'll get some attention from me. So one of the non-negotiables is around 5, 5.30. I'm always quitting work. I can't remember the last time I worked into the night. That's amazing. Yes. Yeah. So, and I used to work well into nine or 10 PM. Sure. And so five, five 30, we have this funny thing. I'll walk down the stairs and I'll say, Hey, love. I'm coming. And he'll say, I'm here. So he's ready. So that's really exciting that I've been able to figure that one out. That's huge. Well, P.S. Amy has the most adorable husband, Hobie. And I feel like he probably wouldn't like to hear that he's adorable because he's a former Navy SEAL firefighter.

4:57Like he's a real like manly man, but he's also just so sweet and he adores you. Oh, yeah. And you've got to go to Amy's TikTok account. It might be on Instagram and see Hobie dance. It like went viral. He's my clutch. He gets on video and I get all the downloads and it makes me very mad. So it's rare that he comes on, but he does. I like that you talked about being in a season of life where you're basically empty nesters. Yes. because I think, you know, I'm not at that season. Right. And so that's a different way of thinking about it. But a lot of people listening are at that stage. And so you really do have to create those artificial boundaries because nobody's saying, mom, what's for dinner?

5:41Absolutely not. It's just, you know, your husband down there doing whatever he's doing. And so anyway, I think that's helpful as a template. Yeah, that one's big for us. And then another non-negotiable is that, I mean, I'm a pretty simple girl. I don't work weekends. It just doesn't happen anymore. And sitting here - Is that a new thing or is that - It's probably in the last, probably year, I've been very solid on it. So I was going to say, sitting here, it's wild for me to tell you that because, and that's a very common non-negotiable that people have no weekends, but it is very difficult. And now if I had to work on a Sunday, I'd be like, what?

6:18I'd be almost annoyed with the world because that is so not my norm. Yeah. So weekends are for family and for rest. And so I've really learned that through the double win how important rest is. Yeah. And so I take that very seriously. And then another non-negotiable, it's all around Hobie and my family. And that is Hobie loves in the morning coffee time. He loves it. And my mind is racing by like 6 a.m. I'm like, go, go, go. So a few times a week and definitely the weekends, it's 30 minutes, coffee, phones down, can't see it, and just talking. And my husband's a talker, so he talks the whole time.

6:53And I just listen. But that coffee time is important to him. And that became a non-negotiable when he came to me and said, I never see you. We never connect. I'm struggling here with your work. That was years and years ago. And it scared me. And so I realized quality time is at the top of his list. It's got to be my non-negotiable. So my non-negotiables really center around making a happy marriage because I got the work locked in. I could do that all day long. I need non-negotiables around my personal space. Okay. I want to ask a question. I'm sorry. This is what happens. We literally are in our minds fighting with each other over who gets to ask the next question because we both have like five that we just want to ask.

7:33I was slapping her language. Now, of course, I forgot the question. Oh, that's fine. I have one. Don't worry. So just talk for a second about how this used to be for you because you just – Okay, that's what I was going to tell. So you also have the same DNA. It really works for us. But I appreciated that you said it used to not be like this. And he came to you because I think it happened for me too. Right. It's easy for people to think, oh, well, I mean, some people are just good at this. It's like it's an innate talent or some character trait. And I love that it wasn't always easy for you. Absolutely.

8:08So I started my business 15 years ago. And in the beginning, the first probably five years, it was absolutely every single night. I didn't even think about taking a weekend off. That was never part of the equation. and Hobie and I have to say, sadly, Cade, my son, they were not priority. My work was. And when you're starting something from scratch or if it means a lot to you, it makes sense that you're going all in. That's my personality. But I didn't understand the balance and how important it was. And so I was tired. I was frustrated. I was resentful of the fact that I wasn't spending time with my family, but I didn't change anything.

8:46That was the weird part. I was mad that I was always working. And I knew that this wasn't what I was supposed to do, but I would say to Hobie, I don't have a choice. Oh, that was something. I was so wrong. I don't have a choice. How am I going to build this business if I'm not working this much? You should be grateful. Yes, exactly. Look what I've done for us. And he's like, I would trade everything we have to have more time with you. That's when it broke me wide open. Did that happen in one conversation? There was a distinct moment that you had that, that you were like, holy cow. There was actually.

9:20It was. I remember it very vividly. It was a long time ago, actually. So this was probably, I think about five years into the business. He was a firefighter at the time. So he worked and he was busy. He wasn't retired. But it was, I just, I made every excuse in the book to work. And I, now looking back, we had our biggest year last year. And I told Michael in our coaching session, I've never worked so little in my life to have my biggest year. Which kind of unnerved you. Very much. I'm like, what in the world? So I feel like I'm absolutely an example of a double win because I've seen it work firsthand in my business.

9:53So how did you go from that, though? Sorry, I'm just really excited. How did I go from? How did you go from, you know, Hobie saying, I would trade all this for more time with you to you actually freeing up your calendar and dealing with like the kind of internal conflict of I want to work all the time and I don't think I have a choice. I think, like I said earlier, that conversation scared me. I actually thought it was the first time my marriage was a little bit in danger because he really had had it. It had gotten to a point that he's like, no more excuses. I don't want to hear it. If you don't make our marriage a priority, what does that say?

10:29And so that scared me. So right away I thought, okay, I'm going to make some changes for sure. But then it took probably a good six months for me to really get into the habit. I get that. Right. It would be, I don't work nights, but maybe two nights a week I have been working. Like it, it had to be a slow progression for me. Cold turkey. I actually think I would have felt resentful to Hobie. Like, wait a second. I don't know how to navigate this way. And now I can't, if you tell me I can't do something, it's going to be hard. Hobie's well aware. So he let me ease into it. I'm a baby steps kind of girl.

11:00So I did like, you know, Monday and Tuesday, I didn't work, but Wednesday and Thursday, I probably did work a little later. And then it started to taper off because I started to see I can do this. My business is okay. I needed the proof. And so the baby steps helped me. And then also when I realized that how much important rest was when I wasn't working on the weekends and how much better I was to my team and not working on the weekends and nights made me build up my team. So back then I had one full-time employee. Today I have 23 full-time employees. And so I didn't have the infrastructure not to work nights or weekends to get to the goals that I wanted.

11:38I didn't know how to do that. The minute I hired some people on the team, that also eased me into, I don't need, if I have 20 employees, why am I working on the weekends? But to be clear for those listening that don't have 23 employees, I didn't need to work nights and weekends to get. Yeah, right. That leads to a question I want to ask. Yeah. So I get this a lot, but you've got an extremely successful business. Right. And you seem to have this wonderful life, you know, people from the outside looking in. And what do you say to the new entrepreneur that says, oh, that's fine for you, but you can't start a business and make it successful unless you're going to work 80 to 100 hours a week?

12:16Yes. I love this question because I tell my students, I want my students to start their business off with a four-day work week, which is very bold. I didn't, obviously. But I'll say to them, I understand that it's weird coming from me. The only success that I know is working nights and weekends and almost killing myself for the first five years. but I have proof that after those five years, what I was able to do, I get more done because I'm not working late into the night and weekends that I know they can get more done than I did back then. So I use that as proof and I give them the systems and the processes, but I really do believe in the biggest regret I have is thinking I had to work that much to get to where I am.

12:58I do not believe that was necessary. The truth is when you're tired and you get a little cranky, You don't get as much work done. It takes longer to complete things. I was going to say that, yeah. And it seems like you could be more efficient. And if you could maintain that level of productivity when you are well-rested and really focused and really creative, if you could do that for 12 hours a day, that would be awesome. Yeah. But you can't. Right. That's the bottom line. All the research shows that. So yeah, I love the way you answered that. Yeah. And so if you're listening and you're thinking, yeah, but I can.

13:29Like you're not a special snowflake is really what you're saying. I'm really saying that because I think that I thought for much of my career that, yeah, yeah, all that stuff's for everybody else. We even published this book when I was in the book publishing business by a lady, and it was basically how to survive on four hours of sleep a night. I was like, oh, jeez. So that you could work more. Well, first of all, I have super regrets about publishing that book because that's like lack of sleep trumps everything. Yes. What's that? And it'll literally kill you. Yeah, it'll literally kill you. Truly.

13:59Bad for your heart, bad for everything, bad for relationships, bad, bad, bad, bad. It's funny because in our coaching sessions, we talk a lot about sleep, don't we? Like how to get better sleep, the different tools you're using. Like I use my business coaching time with Michael Hyatt to talk about how do I get better sleep? Because I know it comes out in the revenue. Like I see it. It really does. That is so fascinating. Yeah. So what does rest look like for you now? So it looks like closing the computer, turning the phone around, like not seeing the face of the phone. and being present with my family and my friends, or just, I love to spend time alone.

14:35I'm very introverted. So shutting it all down, it also looks like, you know, we have a lake house. So going to the lake and getting on the water and reminding myself in the moment, because I want to be honest, I'll get in those moments sometimes and think what I should be doing. I take a lot of Mondays off now and being on the water on a Monday freaks me out still. Like it's hard to relax the whole time. And I tell myself, I get to do this because I've put the systems and processes in place and I value time away from work, which makes me enjoy the work even more. So it's still a little chatter in my head sometimes, but being with the family, being on the water and stepping away from the computer, that's all rest to me.

15:18Okay. So we have a lake house on the same lake, which is really fun. Fully copied Michael and his family. They didn't follow me. But one of the things that I love too is to be on the water. But what is it about being on the water that you find restorative? It's the quiet. I think just having complete quiet around me. And nobody's asking me to do anything or make a decision or just that peace. Absolutely. And then looking out. Nature is – I didn't realize I needed nature so much. Looking out at the nature and feeling – it's so expansive. And I feel expansive in that. To me, that calms my nervous system.

15:56Absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I couldn't agree more.

16:06Okay, let's shift gears and talk about your team for a second. Because I think this is an area that you have done so well in. Because you don't just have the double win for yourself. You've also been very intentional about cultivating that for your team. So will you talk about how you've done that and what's worked and maybe what's not worked? So I think, you know, we talk about people pleasing and not a very positive thing. However, I think my people pleasing tendencies has allowed me, the good part about it, the silver lining is to make sure that my team gets to experience some of the double win that I'm experiencing.

16:39So when we went to a four day work week, I know some of my peers, they take a four day work week, but their whole team doesn't. And that's fine. It works for them. I wanted my business to feel entrepreneurial and not corporate. And to me, freedom is that first part of that. And I also have a lot of moms on my team. It's primarily women and many of them are moms. So I wanted them to have more time with their family. So right away when I thought, I want Fridays off, I knew I wanted my whole team to have Fridays off. I bought the book Shorter because you recommended it. And that was really valuable.

17:12We learned how to do it. We did a trial run. One thing I love about the book Shorter is it tells you do a trial run 60, 90 days. Tell your team, this probably isn't going to work. We're probably not going to stick with it, but we're going to try it. And I have to say something funny about a four-day work week with the team. I went to my team and said, I have a great idea. I think we're going to move to a four-day work week. And I expected cheers, trophies, champagne toast. Like I'm the best boss in the world. and they have the audacity to look at me and think, what are you saying? We can hardly get the work done in five days.

17:47Four days is gonna be more stressful. We don't love this. I was crushed. I couldn't believe it. They didn't love the idea. Then I had my leadership team read the book and they realized, oh, we have to change a few things in order for this to work. Our structure and how we do our days has to change, but this is possible. And then the book tells a lot of proof about how it works. It's very compelling. Right, it is. After you read the book, you're like, wait, I could do this. So once my leadership team read the book, they were on board. But I was very offended for the record that they didn't think I was the best boss in the world.

18:17But it's been over two years now, and I wouldn't change it for the world. It is so important to us. So that's one way. And you had your biggest year ever last year. On a four-day work week. Yes. So wild to me. Just think what you could accomplish if you did five days. Stop. Don't tell me. I thought you were going to say three days. I did too. Brooke Castillo. Oh my gosh. You all know Brooke. Yeah. She told me when I started the four-day work week, I was freaked out. What if this doesn't work? What if productivity goes down? What if revenue goes down? I was very nervous. And she said, and if it does, go to a three-day work week.

18:48She was so adamant that it's not more time and work that you need. It's the efficiency and the focus. So when she said that, I'm like, we're going to make this work. I love that. Okay. So what are some of the, maybe your top two or three changes that your team had to make to make the four-day work week work for them? Number one, meetings, time together. We had to become more efficient. So you know how when you set up a meeting, default is typically like an hour meeting? That's never our default. It's 30 minutes. And if you need longer, you have to justify why a longer meeting is needed. So you have to think about it first.

19:23Two, we weren't doing this before. Whoever books the meeting has to send the agenda with the meeting announcement so we know exactly why we're having this meeting. So people can say, actually, this meeting is not needed and here's why. And we have those conversations now. because when you only work four days and you're in meetings two or three hours a day, you are not getting the work done that you need to get done. We're stacking up. Exactly. So we had to cut down the meeting time and ask, is this really a meeting? You know the joke, that meeting could have been an email. Yeah. I think that's true in many ways.

19:54So we do less meetings. We also have two days a week that there are no meetings. So Tuesdays and Thursdays for my team, nobody is meeting at all unless there's an exception. That's because you're an introvert. Yeah. You made sure there was introvert time. It was so true. I totally did that. If I had it my way, we'd never have a meeting. Right. Although I'd miss my team. Yeah. So yeah, Tuesdays, Thursdays, no meetings. And then a third thing was when we started the double win, and this is great for anyone who's thinking about it, the people that really got it and it was working for them, they had to mentor the people that it was not working.

20:25Jill is my longest standing employee of seven years now. And she came to us and said, this isn't working. She's my content manager. I can't get it done. Here's why. And we took someone for marketing. He was killing it with the four-day work week and worked with her to share some of the strategies. So not everybody on the team is going to click. And if it's not everyone, then you can't pick and choose. So if we hear people working on Fridays, we've got to talk about it. Do you find that there's any commonality between the people who struggle to get the four-day work week? Absolutely. Number one, just the idea of believing this could possibly work.

21:00So it's a mindset issue. It was. I think definitely she probably thought, wait a second. this isn't going to necessarily work and here's why. So she had probably reasons for that. Number two is that the way that they set up their day in the beginning made all the difference. So we use the full focus planner, everybody does on my team. And I think those who really embraced it and used it religiously, I think that they were easy way, they eased into a four day work week. Yeah. That makes sense. You know, we've found that our moms get this the easiest, you know, Like it, it's so counterintuitive.

21:34I know it conceptually makes the most sense to them. I think the mindset part is not nearly as difficult. And I think part of that is because they have little people or not so little people who are waiting on them at the end of the day. We don't do a four day work week, but we have a, you know, approximately 30 hour work week. And so we end around three o 'clock every day. And that's pretty easy when you've got to be in the car line picking up your kids. It's a forced kind of transition point where our folks who are single or maybe empty nesters, it's harder for because like you were talking about, you literally could just work all the time because there's no external constraints in place.

22:11And so I think that's an interesting challenge to overcome if you are in a season where you're not in a relationship or you don't have children at home anymore. So true. Yeah. The season of life means everything to how things actually click and work. Yeah. I wanted to move the conversation a little bit to the other domains of life. Okay. And because if you just listen to what's happened so far, it's kind of all rainbows and unicorns. But of the nine or 10 domains that you have, what is the easiest for you and what is the most difficult? And you kind of already admitted to the first one. Okay. When you say domains.

22:51Well, I'm talking about the different categories, like mind, body, spirit. Oh, yeah. So business, easiest. Yeah. Yes. So work. Yes, work is the easiest for me. And then the one that I probably struggle with the most, well, my health. So over the last 15 years of building the business, I've really struggled with my health, meaning not eating well, not working out, not getting enough sleep. And today, I think my health is in the best place it's ever been. But that is all. Hard one. I worked out this morning and I did not want to. I complained for the first 10 minutes. Me too. So that one, it just doesn't come natural to me.