ARIANNA MOLLOY: How to Love Work—Without Burning Out

24:22You know, what's really interesting to me technologically, and Megan and I were talking about this earlier today, because I'm writing an article on this, but you know, with email, you have an out of office message, but rarely do the important things come in via email. It's usually text now. Yes. And there's not, at least on Apple devices, there's not an out of office message. And I've got a friend and I'm testing it now. He's written a program that does that, and it's really going to be cool. But I tried it for the first time this last weekend. And so if you message me after five o 'clock on Friday, I said essentially what you say, I'll get back to you on Monday because I'm taking time off to attend to the other parts of my life.

25:02But I thought there's probably a reason, and maybe I'm just paranoid, that the big tech companies don't want to put that because they want you active on your phone 24-7. And it's just not healthy. It's totally not healthy. And I love that. Please sign me up for that app because I will totally use it. I've been talking to several friends of mine, one who has a really high profile, high intensity job. But when she takes a break, she's like, I don't know what to do because there's not a someone, they need a response. And you're right. Texting is now the way people interact the most. And I, I really wish we had that.

25:35That is a needed, that is a gap in the work wellness situation. I know there are people who are in our community who are listening to this and they're thinking, I don't know what my calling is. You know, maybe they're even successful in their work. You know, most of the people that we're talking to are, but they're not sure if that's their calling or they feel some kind of emptiness. How do you practically speaking discern what your calling is if you don't already know the answer to that question? Yeah, that's such a good question. First of all, calling really, and this is how I approach it, calling is a relationship with the caller.

26:14And so it's really relational and it's a relationship with yourself, the called, and it's a relationship with the community that you impact. And so focusing more on the relationships rather than grasping hold of this is my calling can sometimes be messier but also more satisfying. So I would say first, who are the people that you love to be around or that you feel a need to help? Are there situations where you walk into the room and it's just clearer to you than it may be to other people what's going on? Paying attention to those skill sets and passions. I'm a big fan of personality tests. They do not stress me out.

26:47I don't ever feel like they have to define me, but I love them. I've never met what I did like. Yeah. So I would say that. I think that one thing I've been a big fan of recently is building your board. So finding a personal board of directors. So thinking through the people in your life who, you know, three to five people who inspire you, I would encourage you to write down exactly what you respect about them, questions you would want to ask them, and then literally see if you could meet with them once a month or quarterly and say, hey, I'd love to have you be someone I check in with. And I think it needs to be more than one person because ultimately no one person has all the answers, no one human being.

27:24And so having a personal board of directors, I actually teach my students in a class. They create like a little portfolio of their personal board. So I think that's really – you guys are smiling. I love it. It sounds so cool. I'm smiling for a different reason. First of all, I absolutely love this idea, but I'm very involved in AI and in a couple of AI communities. and there are people, this is a trend, where people are creating AI virtual boards where they'll put Steve Jobs on it and whoever their heroes are. And then they will consult with the board on major decisions, but they want all those board members to respond as themselves.

27:59And I've seen some of the output. It is astonishing what AI can do to take from that. I don't think it's as good as a real board, but that's a big idea. You know, and I love that. And I love that you brought that up because sometimes it feels like there's no one in your life that you could personally go to. And so I don't think it needs to be someone that you know. I know for me in college, you know, C.S. Lewis is by far my most favorite author of all time, Jane Austen being my second. And so I remember going to the literature and seeking out wisdom from the council of authors. I think podcasts are another place to go for that.

28:35And so I don't think you have to be limited by people you know. I think you pursue a personal board based on the things you want to learn and aspire to, and you seek out wisdom from those places. Yeah. This is a big idea. Yeah. Okay. So say more though, about discerning your calling, you know, for example, in your book, I remember right where I was when I was walking this morning and you were talking about the idea of telling your students if they had a year where they didn't have to worry about their schoolwork or money or anything, what would they do? And that's kind of a little something that you can help to prompt you to think about what might be something that you would enjoy.

29:14But then you said, you know, now pretend as an adult that all of your expenses are paid for. You don't have to worry about anything. You have to do any work. Like what would you spend your time on? And I love that because I had like all kinds of fun things coming to mind. I was like going to be in France. I was going to be in Italy. It was just basically food and gardens and art, you know, just a lot of that. So I don't know if That's just my fantasy or if that has something to do with my calling. But, you know, I'd love for you to talk about that and anything else that just helps people to access it.

29:42Because I think sometimes when we're talking about calling, we're talking about people's hearts. And I think that we live in a world that is increasingly disembodied. It's increasingly spiritually disconnected. It's increasingly superficial. And it can be difficult to know yourself in that way. I love that you brought that up. By the way, they made me audition for the audio recording of the book, which actually was so much fun. Oh, funny. I'm so grateful that I could do it. You're a great reader, by the way. Oh, yeah. It was great. Thank you. Let me just say that work as a calling is not a requirement.

30:18You don't have to feel that calling in your work. It does make things more motivating, but it can also make things more complicated. And sometimes people pursue a job that is a career. They really like it, but they don't love it. and then they find something that's unpaid or a side gig that fulfills that sense of calling. So there's more than one way to do this. I love that. I don't want anyone to feel trapped in that. Yeah. I think that's great because I think that takes some pressure off, first of all, but it's not, I think maybe part of the resistance too is like, oh my gosh, am I, I spent, you know, 20 years in this career and I'm going to have to start back at a$30 ,000 a year job and I've missed my calling and I'm going to be broke and on and on and on, you know?

30:56Yeah, totally. And by the way, that myth that calling is never pays well is actually totally wrong. Most people who actually feel called are getting paid quite a lot. So there's a lot of things going on there. But my parents didn't pursue their occupational calling all the time because they felt called to be really good spouses and parents and they felt the conflict in their work. And so they chose work they were good at. They were able to bring in that sense of meaningfulness, but it wasn't their direct one. But yeah, so how might you figure that out? So again, we're talking about building your own board, your personal board, whether through AI, podcasts, authors, or real people paying attention to what you're good at.

31:29Another way to think about it is if someone asks you something, do you kind of go like, yeah, I can do that. Anytime your voice goes, yeah, I can do that. That's usually not a good sign. So instead slow down and think deeply about when are you doing something and don't dismiss it, even if it's small, that makes you feel glad and joyful and like, wow, that was great. So for me, mentoring is something that ignites my heart. Mentoring, collaborative learning, and then being able to speak to lots of people about things that will make light bulbs go off above their head, that just literally gets my heart beating fast.

32:07I love it. And so when I was younger, I was like, should I be a, does that mean I'm a motivational speaker? That wasn't for me really, exactly. But I realized that there were different places in work I could do that. So here's what I'm saying. No one job has to be the only job in which you do this. And so you can think of different skill sets and passions that could be applied to multiple different jobs that you can bring in and develop so that you're not limited to just one thing. The reality is people change jobs right now about 10 times between the ages of 18 and 42. Wow. So rather than being so fixated on a title, a job title, we need to think more creatively about the kinds of things we can do in the job.

32:52You know, it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think sometimes when people think about calling, they're thinking of a burning bush moment, you know, where God speaks to them with an audible voice and they've discovered their calling and they keep waiting for that. But it seems to me like it's more like a journey that unfolds over time. Absolutely. In fact, it's unusual. It does exist. And I myself have had those moments, but it's a lot more unusual to have like, you know, the skies part and rays of sunshine streaming down and saying, this is your calling. And then it's clear and obvious and easy.

33:27Most of the time it happens upon reflection. It happens after the fact. In the moment, it's not so obvious, this subtle sense of peace or just a feeling like, I think this is right. And then you look back and it does feel good or the opposite. You say yes to something and it does not feel right. And you realize you need to change that. One financial advisor that I was working with told me that he actually wanted to be a pastor originally. And he went to India for some sort of pastoral training. But on his days off, he kept going to financial books. He was like going to these book fairs and he was so drawn to numbers.

34:01And then he said, I realized I was denying who I was. I needed to follow my interests and God was there too. And so now he's this phenomenal financial advisor who is so pastoral in the way that he counsels people that he's using his skill sets in a really cool way. But I want to go back a little bit. So for people who are in a job and they like it or they most of the time like it, but they don't know that they can leave it, they don't know if they want to leave it, there are job crafting strategies that they can do. I don't know if you've talked about this before, but there are three. So the first is task crafting.

34:35Task crafting is when you realize there's something you can let go, you can delegate, it doesn't have to be you anymore, and you give it away in order to make space for something that actually you're good at. The opposite also could be that you don't mind taking on something extra because you actually just really enjoy it, and so you ask to take on that extra thing. That's task crafting. Relational crafting is the second one. Relational crafting is being mindful of the people that you're around in the workplace, whether virtually or in person. So those text threads? Are they like bringing you down because it's moved from venting to just complaining?

35:10Or are there people that you can pursue in the workplace that when you interact with them, oh man, you just see the world better. And so you pursue those relationships because you're careful of that emotional contagion. You're mindful of that. So task crafting, relational crafting. The third is cognitive crafting. And that goes back to what you were saying earlier. You remind yourself what you're doing. You're not just cleaning teeth. You're making people feel better. You're contributing to their overall wellness. And in a situation where people feel very vulnerable and scared, you are assuring them they are going to be okay.

35:43And so cognitive crafting is just reframing what you're doing and reminding yourself of the purpose behind it. I love that. The other night, so I have five children. My oldest is 23. My youngest is just about to be six. And my 23 year old was over the other night and he was like on cloud nine. So he comes over for dinner and you know, it was one of those nights and he's just started doing swing dancing classes. And I guess he has a real aptitude for swing dancing, which he did not get, uh, from his dad. He's actually my stepson, which is funny. My husband hates to dance, but he got asked to be in this dance troupe where I guess they go perform.

36:23I mean, I don't know. I was like, Finn, I don't even know what a dance troupe is. Tell me. And he was like, I had the best day as He was talking to just left dance. This was the best day I have ever had. And he said, I just can't get enough of this. I just want to dance like all the time. And he was telling me why. And it was fun because it was complicated, but you had to communicate and all the, you know, all these different things. And, you know, that was kind of a dramatic example. And I think sometimes younger people are a little less self-conscious and may just sort of put it out there because they're not trying to be so cool about it like us, you know, as we get older and further down the road.

36:56But I thought, you know, what a great example of him feeling his heart come alive to something and just like leaning into it, you know, and I don't know if he's going to do something with that professionally, but it doesn't even matter. I mean, I think that's maybe an example of outside of his professional life. He works at Chick-fil-A right now and he likes it. He would not say, I don't think he would say that he feels that that's his calling. But I think he's discovering a part of his calling even outside of work as he's enjoying this dance aspect of what he's doing. I love that. And I think we don't honor that need and importance of play as much as we could.

37:38And I think when you were talking, that made me think of the seven types of rest. So a lot of times when people who love their job try to rest, they don't do it in a way that actually makes them feel satisfied. So they're frustrated, like, ah, rest was annoying. That was a waste of time. But the reality is, and I think it was Dr. Dalton Smith who came up with this. It's a TED Talk component, but it's seven types of rest. And one of them is creative rest. So if you're just needing an outlet to restore that part of who you are, creative rest is the way to go. There's sensory rest. So that might be like unplugging from the digital chaos or noise that you feel.

38:13And even like within physical rest, she defines it as two different kinds. There's one that's just static rest, like take a nap. Or there's active rest, which is do a yoga class or go for a gentle walk. And so I think exploring the types of rest that actually do restore who you are. We have this very singular understanding that rest is like sitting on a couch and looking out the window, which I confess sometimes is what I need. but a lot of times it's not. My husband, who's a high capacity Enneagram three achiever to the utmost, that is not what he needs. He needs to go to Disneyland and play all day long and that will restore his heart.

38:49That's so funny. I'm an Enneagram three too, but that does not sound attractive to me. Yeah, you're an introverted, well, sort of introverted Enneagram three. You know, we have this model called the Freedom Compass that basically imagine a four quadrant and it's basically the intersection of passion and proficiency. So I wrote about this in my book called Free to Focus. And so it creates four zones. And so we call it the desire zone where your passion and your proficiency come together, which is what you're talking about. Cool. When you have no passion or proficiency, it's your drudgery zone. When you have proficiency, but no passion, we call that the disinterest zone.

39:25And then when you have passion, but not the proficiency, and it's a place we kind of go to escape, that's the distraction zone. Thank you, Megan, for killing me. But we also, after we did that, we thought there's an area, and I'd love to get your response to this, that we put kind of right in the middle that we call the development zone. Now, these are things that you think might be your calling, but you're not yet proficient enough to know. And so, for example, I used to hate public speaking. I used to hate writing. Now those are basically the two things I do every day, all day, and I love them.

40:02But I had to get to a certain level of proficiency before I could say with certainty, this is my calling. Do you find that? Absolutely. I love that so much. I need to get my student, I need to get my hands on that. I want to read more about that. That's so cool. I love the terminology, the way that you named that. Yeah. And so actually, and I talk about this about it in my book as well, really a healthy calling, the linchpin of it is humility. And part of humility is the willingness to learn more, to know that you don't know everything. And that is not a threat, but it's actually exciting. So that's the whole point is that we are dynamic creatures and we ought to get better and grow.

40:42And this to me, again, goes back to that growth mindset versus fixed mindset where, And I will confess to you that I think I'm naturally more of a fixed mindset person. Unfortunately, when I fail, it feels awful. It feels like it defines myself. But I force myself into the growth mindset capacity where it's like, okay, failure is just information of what I'm not good at and where I need to grow. I think that is marvelous. And we do need to continue to explore and learn and grow and be messy in that and know that that's part of what helps us learn more about ourselves. I love it.

41:21Okay. I'm so glad you brought up humility because when I was looking at the table of contents of your book, I was like, huh, humility. That's so interesting. That was, it was like, which one is not like the other, you know? And I, and I love listening to that part because I think that there's so much conversation right now about like, follow your truth and follow your heart. And I think maybe this is the benefit of coming at this from a faith perspective, not that you have to, but I think there's something really to be gained there because humility is often the missing ingredient. And sometimes I think that can lead people to narcissism and other really dysfunctional expressions of calling.

42:01So will you talk about what you mean when you say humility? And cause I know that that was kind of part of your whole journey was really understanding what that meant and then how that gets applied in the context of calling. Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, really great leadership books do touch on this. I think of Good to Great by Jim Collins or the ideal team player, Patrick Lanchoni, all of those folks, they'll talk about this combination of, you know, humility and strength and all of those things. But here's what I'll tell you. I was in the third year of being a professor at Biola university.

42:34I had experienced all the bright sides of calling personally, as well as in my research. But I remember laying in bed one night, covered in sweat, my heart beating like I was running, but I obviously was not running. My mind catastrophizing all these different scenarios and just feeling like bleh. And I started thinking about the research on the dark side of calling. And I was checking off things in my head. Oh, yeah, no, I'm feeling that. Oh, check, check, check. Oh, shoot. I think I'm burned out. And at the time I was way over serving on multiple committees. I was teaching an overload. I was engaged in planning a wedding.

43:09I mean, there was so many things happening. And so I made some corrective choices. And one choice that I made, which was totally, I think a divine thing is that there was a fellowship I could apply for where I would, it would cut my teaching load in half. And I didn't even really think about what it was. You guys, I just applied for it. So I was like, I need a break. I need to figure this out. So I applied for it and it ended up being that I got to study the virtue of humility. And I was in this room with cherry wood furniture, all the best kind of snacks, deep thinkers with brown, luxurious chairs to sit in.

43:41I felt like I was part of the Inklings and J.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. And I was listening and we were reading all this literature and studies on humility. And all of a sudden, when they talked about humility and I thought about those who expressed a healthy calling, it overlapped completely. It literally like fit into each other. And the thing is we have a misunderstanding of humility these days. I think in popular culture and society, we think of humility like passivity or modesty. It's not modesty. When you think of a humble worker, you don't want to have someone who works for you who doesn't know what they're good at, right?

44:16They need to have competence. They need to be confident in what they're good at and also humble. So really, humility involves three things. Humility involves an awareness of your strengths and your weaknesses, but not being distracted by either one. You know what you're good at. You know where you need to grow. You're not defensive about where you need to grow, and you're not distracted by what you're good at. And really, that exists well in a place of gratitude. So you know what you're good at. You know where you need to grow. The second thing is that you are a learner. You realize there's more to learn.

44:48And you look at this in data and even in the Bible, there's all this evidence of continuing to learn. The third thing is the ability to walk away for a while. I think of Jim Collins' seminal Good to Great book, and they talk about one of the differences between a good leader and a great leader is that a good leader can walk away, but then the company crumbles. But a great leader can step away for a little bit, and it still functions well because they've delegated well, they've mentored well, they've helped other people grow so that no one's afraid if the leader is gone because the leader's legacy is still there.

45:22And in humility, we know how to step away for a little bit because we know we're not the god of the universe. So I think humility gives us the ability when someone asks us to do more at work rather than letting it stroke our ego so that we're like, oh, I needed more. I'm going to take this on or feed our insecurity and say, I better say yes to this so I can prove myself. Humility offers us a diagnostic to say, why am I saying yes to this? Is this going to be healthy or is this going to be unhealthy? That's such a good framework. We had Arthur Brooks on the show not too long ago. And he said, all of us need something that makes us feel small.

46:00And that sounds so like counter-cultural because that's not what we hear in our culture. But I remember seen a post on Facebook that had like the whole universe and then it had a little, little bitty dot and it said, you are here. You know, you're just like this little dot. Yeah. Which is great. And you know, what I love about that concept is I was thinking about it in the concept of human flourishing, of healthy calling, of, you know, some of the stuff that we do around productivity and goal setting and all of that is that I think that we have forgotten that we are the creatures, not the creators.

46:36That's right. And that relationship allows us and forces us all all the same time to accept our limits. You know, I think there's so much freedom in accepting our limits. I find this very difficult personally. You know, I am always like so optimistic about how much I can get done or my husband and I finally have come to an agreement on the weekends that like the family chores and the house projects only happen on Sunday after we get home from church. They cannot also happen on Saturday. Cause let me tell you, I can, you give me a week, I can fill it up with things that can be done. You know, I always have more ideas than I have time.

47:10And I think there's something that's really good and healthy about accepting the limitations and realizing that this conversation that I had with our son about the dancing, you know, he was going to have to let some things go that he felt badly about in order to make more time for that. Cause it was turned out to be big time commitment. And I was telling him that great quote that says, you know, you can have anything you want, but you can't have everything you want. And I think that we so often we confuse that and we try to get everything, everything that has any goodness in it. We want more of instead of being really selective about those things that fall within our calling.

47:47So I just love this idea. It's like the governor on the whole thing. Unfortunately, we do have this understanding that pain is weakness leaving the body. You know, I think of the runner's signs, like you can do it. And to some extent, we do need to persevere. And I think part of that is knowing the difference between perseverance and denial, which can look very similar. Perseverance is knowing your goal and making adjustments along the way when things inevitably change so you can get to the goal. This is why a calendar and planning and lists are so beautiful. But denial is making a goal and being unwilling to alter your plan because you want what you want when you want it.

48:26Those are not the same. So I think that it's important to recognize, hey, limitations. And I think being a parent is, oh, it's so good in teaching me my limitations because if I am not rested, I am not patient. If I am not patient, I miss an opportunity to help my kid feel seen and heard and grow. And so there's a domino effect. Honoring our limitations does not mean that we are limited. It actually means we're informed about what we can and should do. And I think it gives us a freedom. It does. Yeah. Because even in saying no, we have written a lot about that. We've had guests come on and talk about that.

49:06And if we don't understand our human limitation, we just think we can be God. We can help everybody. And the truth is, I can't help everybody. I can basically help a few people, but that's a limitation. I remember being newly married and coming home, I would have an enormous amount of office hours with my students because I just love them. I just have so much love for my college students. My heart just fills to overflowing for them. And I know that's God given, but I remember coming home and I was exhausted because I think I had met with like 20 students in addition to teaching that day. Oh my God.

49:37And my husband was like, I miss you. Can you not meet with as many students tomorrow? And I was like, oh, at first I was actually a little bit like, but you don't understand. And then I realized actually having those boundary lines are really important because otherwise I'm giving from an unhealthy place as well. And so I think that's good. You know, my dad has this sign above his desk that says something like, if you're not turning down opportunities, you don't really have a plan. And I think that unfortunately, sometimes we do have to say no and it feels bad to say no, but that bad feeling is not necessarily an indication that we did the wrong thing.

50:13Part of the journey of humility is entrusting the impact of our calling to God and not taking responsibility for that in a way that like our kind of human frame can't bear. Being able to say, okay, this is like, I'm going to give my time and energy and financial resources and whatever. I'm going to offer that to the Lord, but then I'm going to ask him to bless that and to make it what he wants it rather than like holding onto it, like it's mine to kind of force the outcome out of it, you know? And I don't know. I think that's freeing too, because I think sometimes when we get overly focused on the outcome of our, whatever our calling is, whether that happens in our vocation or, or avocationally, like it really is, it can be dangerous because we end up in a role of trying to play God and we take it.

51:05I mean, to use like psychological language, it becomes codependent, you know, it's like We're taking responsibility for something in someone else's life that isn't ours to own. And I think that's a real danger, especially when you care a lot. As a parent. As a parent, as a boss, as a coworker, whatever your context is, it is so easy to fall into that. Do you see that in your work? Oh, yes. And again, that's where I don't think you can have reflection without slowing down. And this is why I'm a big proponent of having a day of rest every week so that we can slow down. And it might not always be physical rest, depending on your life circumstances.

51:44If you have more than one job or you have young kids or you're caretaking for a family member, it might not be physical rest. But that emotional, mental, and spiritual rest reminds you, helps you see the things that maybe you've been stuffing down. The Nagoski sisters who wrote a book on burnout talk a lot about emotion being a tunnel. Yeah, isn't it so good? It's so good. And they talk about emotion being a tunnel. And if you don't choose to go in the tunnel, you remain stuck. You can't go further. And so you can't go around it, can't go under it, can't go over it, have to go through it. And I don't think you can do that unless you slow down.

52:20Slowing down allows for that reflection. And I know for me, I'm so used to the motion and momentum of movement that it's almost like stepping off of a boat and walking on dry land. and you feel a little rocked by like, whoa, what's going on? I have to slow down. But once I do, I almost always hear the whispers of my caller reminding me about the order of things and the orientation of things. And I'm always, always better for it. Megan and I have talked a lot about this, but we live in a world of hurry. And we do everything fast. I mean, I walk fast and I drive fast. I like never drive the speed limit.

53:01I mean, true confession. So you could, anytime I'm out, I'm fair game. But I think that there, there is a reaction to that coming where people just feel the need to slow it down because hurry has become a value in and of itself. We all march to that. I don't know if it comes from a scarcity mindset. You know, I'm at the age where, you know, I have less runway than the two of you. So, you know, I can feel like, oh my gosh, I've got so much to pack in and there's so much I want to learn, but to just slow it down a little bit. And we were talking in a previous podcast about John Mark Comer's work, you know, the ruthless elimination of hurry.

53:36And that's so resonated with me. So good. We were also talking about, I think in that same podcast, I can't remember now, but you know, in some ways that hurry, it has like an existential quality to it, that it's, it's almost like a refusal to face our own mortality and to kind of outrun it. And even, you know, again, not, we know not everybody in our community is coming from a faith-based perspective, but just speaking personally, as Christians, we believe that we have eternity on the other side, like our, there's an interruption at death in our life, but that we, we have eternity and that, that the next life is going to be better and fuller than this one.

54:16And yet we live like practical atheists and, you know, we, we deny that reality, like time is running out. And in some ways I think, you know, obviously the psalmist says, teach us to number our days. We may find a heart of wisdom, you know, like, so there, there is a purpose to that, but I also think we can ignore the fact that the scarcity is sort of pretend in some ways, you know, the best things in life go on. But I do appreciate that. It's very real. I mean, two years ago, I had a lot of people in my life, including myself, with some serious health issues. They just all surfaced around the same time.

54:53And I went to the ER several times. I was misdiagnosed with something else and ended up really just needing to process my own mortality. And I was like, this is way too early. I feel like this is way too early for me to process my mortality. But it did create in me a fresh understanding of that scarcity model and what that actually feels like in our bodies. and in our hearts and in our minds. And all I can say to you is I agree. I think of the peace that passes understanding, the peace that is not like what the world promises, the peace that by the mouth of my Lord calmed the storm in the sea, that fishermen who were skilled fishermen who knew what storms looked like and usually didn't get scared were freaking out.

55:38And so I think for me, the only way that I can stay anchored is to have that rest time that's not just for myself, but that's inclusive of my caller. Yeah. You know, I love that you're a professor. I love that you're helping form and shape this next generation of workers. How does this raw material show up at your doorstep? And what happens or what are you hoping to send them into the world with? Thank you. I love being a professor also. And I know that that is a calling that I try to hold with open hands, but it's just the coolest job ever. You know, I get to go to a campus and before the start of every semester, I pray over the doorway and all the seats.

56:17And then these people come in, these young adults who either don't want to be there, are not sure why they're there or like overly excited to be there. And I love all of them. I'm just so excited to get to the people in the back and the side and the front. And what I love about talking about organizational communication, communication in the workplace and about work is you can use it anywhere. So for me, we start off in the freshman level classes, just getting them to think about what is work. You know, I try to eliminate, have them eliminate the phrase a real job because that does not honor the work that people do.

56:52And a particular job may not be your ideal job, but it's someone else's ideal job. And so not diminishing other people's work simply because it's not the work we want. We try to talk about what work is that's not paid work or that's seasonal or partial or entrepreneurial or work for yourself work and all those things. And then we talk about leadership and we talk about identity and culture. And at the end, in the senior level, we talk about how do you identify with your workplace? Because work will shape who you are. As a child, the number one place of socialization is family. But as adults, where is it?

57:28It's actually work. We are taught what is good and true and right based on our work interactions with others. So we kind of need to care about it and we need to pay attention to it. And I actually teach a senior level class on work and calling, which is so much fun. So ultimately, whether it's communication students or business students or psychology students, they all come to me and it's super fun. And I even teach classes like nonverbal communication, which is like developing a superpower. But ultimately, to me, it's like giving them a universal key, a key that they might not know how to use yet or why they would want to use it, but it's in their tool belt.

58:02We live in a tool belt generation right now. But when you have communication skills that help you in the workplace, you can pull that key out and open up just about any door. And that to me is exciting. I want to go back to college. I know, seriously. I may have missed my calling as a professor. I'm so excited that Hannah introduced us. And as we come to a close, we've got three questions that we ask every guest. And so Megan, I'll let you start. Yeah. Okay. Ariana, what is your biggest obstacle right now in getting the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life? I think my biggest obstacle is, well, I'll get real.

58:42There's two. One is just not getting enough sleep. Sleep is like your best friend and I am not getting enough of it. And I have an almost six-year-old and that's just hard. And I do love my job. So there's just a lot of screaming things for my attention. I've recently been motivated by that mantra good enough, which, which doesn't mean like average, like actually I want to aim for good enough, but I need to realize in every circumstance, what actually is good enough and maybe let go of it needing to be more than that. That's a message I need to hear. Yeah. It's really good. I tend to be a perfectionist.

59:13How do you personally know what are the markers of you getting the double win? Yeah. I am energized. Even if I feel exhausted, it's like that good exhaustion from a great workout. It's not the depleted exhaustion. It's the exhaustion of feeling like you've been used and used well in the spaces that you can help make a difference and coming home and still being a good person to my kid and my husband. So it's a double win when I leave work feeling great and I go home and I still have more to give. Great answer. That is great. Okay. Last question. What is one ritual or routine that you rely on to do what you do.

59:50We've talked about this already. I go on this walk for 30 minutes every Friday. To me, it's really orienting the Sabbath, taking a rest once a week. But I'll tell you another small practice that I've been doing recently. If I have 10 minutes or less between meetings, I'm choosing to not go on my phone. It's a 2025 goal for myself. If it's more than 10 minutes, I absolutely make use of emails and all the things. But if it's less than 10 minutes, if I'm really prepared, I'll have a book with me or I'll listen to a podcast. Like when I mean going on my phone, I mean not engaging in digital communication as much, but just raising my eyes up.

1:00:27And what's happening is I'm having conversations with my coworkers that I wouldn't have expected. I'm noticing people around me that I wouldn't have expected. I'm looking up and out to the window and I'm breathing better. And so again, if it's 15 minutes or 10, more than 10 minutes, then I'm absolutely going to make use of maximize my time. But if it's 10 minutes or less, I'm making it a challenge that I don't always succeed in, but I really try of not getting on my phone. Oh, I love that. I do too. That's cool. And as it turns out, I usually book myself for 50 minutes and have 10 minutes between meetings so I could do this.

1:01:01Yeah, that's great. I love that. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a delightful conversation and you really illuminated our thinking on a number of things. Yeah, absolutely. I hope we have the chance to talk again. And I think this is so helpful to our community. Thank you, Ariana. Thank you so much.

1:01:28Wow. What an amazing conversation that was. I have to say, she has a phenomenal personality. She does. So much energy. Yes. It's very contagious. Well, you can imagine how fun it would be to be one of her students. No kidding. I mean, I'm not kidding when I said, I want to go back to college. I wonder if she and Arthur Brooks know each other. They need to know each other. Yes, I think they do too. There's some overlap here. I think they can really inform one another's work. The Venn diagrams are overlapping. Well, okay, what was your biggest takeaway? It's been a while, to be honest, that I've thought about work in the context of a calling.

1:02:00And I think that that gives it a certain gravity and a certain meaning that's really important because it's very easy to sort of move into a view of work that's just all about efficiency, you know, doing stuff faster, more efficient, being more productive. And I think there's something that's beyond that that is foundational that's so important, and that is to have a sense of meaning about what you do and understand your role in the larger context. and I got that from that conversation with her. Yeah. What about you? Well, many things. I think, first of all, the idea that you're calling is not just vocational.

1:02:40It can be, and it often is, and maybe that's kind of like the ultimate in a way. We get to spend as much time as possible doing that, but it can also be advocational, outside of your professional work. And I like that because I think for most of us, My work at Full Focus isn't 100 % reflective of my calling. There are things that I do in my personal life, for example, being a mom or doing a lot with aesthetics. Some of that I do within the context of my role at Full Focus, but some of that I do in my personal life. And together, it's like a whole. And I like that because I think it creates a sense of freedom that - And integration.

1:03:21And integration. Yeah, that's a good point. that it's like I'm not failing if my job isn't 100 % expressive of my calling or if my home life isn't or personal life isn't 100 % expressive, that like it's really about how it all works together. So I like that a lot. I do too. And I also enjoyed the conversation around burnout because she had some nuanced thoughts about that that I hadn't thought about. Like, you can burn out from having too much passion around your job. So just the fact that that you love to work. You know, it's not always about, you know, I'm getting validation at work or, you know, this is where I have meaningful connection with other people can certainly be that, but it's also just, you know, I want to serve people and I have this passion to serve people, but left unchecked that can also lead to burnout.

1:04:11Yeah. Which I think brings me to the other big insight that I got both from reading the book, but also from this conversation was around the idea of humility, that that is such an important counterbalance to calling because it acts as kind of a governor that helps us remember that ultimately what we're made for this idea of calling is our offering ultimately to God. It's not kind of an end in and of itself, even though in many ways it brings us joy and fulfillment and meaning, but we're not accountable for the outcome of that offering. And I just think that like kind of keeps it in its proper place and is the antidote to what you're talking about, where you love your work so much.

1:04:55It's like you over-identify with it and it's - You idolize it in your language. Yeah, you idolize it. And I think that really is a real risk. So I don't know. I feel like I'm really on this journey of accepting my limitations and becoming aware of those and letting that be a gift and not something I fight so hard against. Yeah. Well, it was a great conversation. and I would look forward to talking with her again. Me too. I feel like she has so many useful frameworks and I love frameworks. You do. I was like, y 'all are speaking the same language. When she gets into, you know, the four parts of the calling or all this stuff.

1:05:29You're the same Myers-Briggs personality. Oh, we are? She's also an ENFJ. Oh, wow. Yeah. Interesting. She's an Enneagram six. We didn't get to that, but that's - Well, that's where I go in health. Yeah, there you go. So you're basically twins. Okay, guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, would you do us the favor of leaving a review? And if you can't do that, just rate the podcast. That will help us get more attention for the podcast so we can spread the word about the double win, something that we're passionate about and hopefully proficient at. Thanks.