BRYAN & SHANNON MILES: Leading Through Change and Loneliness

25:49It's going to be mutiny on the boundary here. But I want to ask you the second part of the question, which is what do you think owners forget or don't know about what it is to be an individual contributor or to be an executive on a team? Now, there are some people that go immediately into ownership. They founded a company like Steve Jobs, founded Apple, and I don't know that he ever worked for anybody. But I know you guys did, and we certainly have. It's easy to forget. You get so myopic on your own problems that you forget what other people that are working with you as your teammates struggled with.

26:22Yeah. It's funny. I can continue with the same story from 2016, right? Like I think a big reason why I felt like I couldn't continue leading is I was just embarrassed. I was embarrassed that we had led this organization in a certain direction and then came to realize that direction was not working and we needed to change. And like you said, like, how can I expect them to trust me? Let's go this way now. And I thought, I just, I don't know that I can, I can handle that. But what I think ultimately I had to evolve to realize is that's ego, first of all. And second of all, I've never really been equipped to do this, but I have been equipped as I've gone along.

27:01And I think individual contributors look at organizational shifts like that, like what we had to go through. And they really genuinely care about, well, what does this mean for me? Not like what's in it for me. I'm not saying that like in a selfish, greedy way, but like, what does this mean for my job day to day? Is this going to change how I show up at work? Is our culture changing? Am I still going to want to be with this organization? Like, so when as owners or leaders, we make adjustments in the business or take on a new effort, we have to really communicate those changes and those shifts in direction through the eyes of the employees, because what are they going to want to know?

27:43What does this change mean for me? Yeah, that's one of the things we talk about change management and like how you kind of communicate change. You always start with solving the answer for them of like, what's going to impact me or how does this impact me? If you don't answer that, they won't even listen to your vision for what's next. So true. Yeah. A hundred times over it's like, hey, this is what this means for you and get right after it and then talk big picture, big vision because they need to settle in their hearts and go, oh, okay, I'm good. I'm stable. It's kind of like if you don't feel safe as an employee, change can feel scary.

28:17And so I think as leaders, part of our job, Brian, to what you said, is to just kind of help people settle and know that they're safe. Or in some cases, we have to make decisions in which people are not going to be on the team anymore. And we need to deal with that honestly as well. Sometimes those are hard conversations, but regardless, not leaving people in limbo is so important because they just have a hard time following you and ultimately aligning to a vision if they don't know that they're going to be okay or they don't know what's happening to them. You know, I think one of the things I forgot in leadership was that not everybody loves change.

28:48Like I thrive on change. You know, I change my thinking probably daily on stuff. And I'd like to change the organization daily. And unfortunately, Megan's very much like me in that regard. But one of the things we've learned to do, and this happened when we announced the succession plan for Megan to become the CEO. And we started that conversation by saying, look, we've got some big changes coming, but we're going to start with what's not going to change. Because if people don't have a stable platform, and to your point, Megan, to feel safe, they really can't even process the change. Because all they start, they immediately pull in and start thinking about themselves.

29:25And again, not in an inappropriate way, but like, what does this mean for me? Like survival. If you don't answer that question at the very beginning, they're not going to hear it all. It's incumbent on us as leaders or business owners to recognize that you're in this position, you're in this title, if you will, for a season of time, which is stewardship. And stewardship is just simply managing something for a season of time. We've never thought like we'll own these businesses forever. So if we're stewarding this for a season of time, that means that while we're there with our employees and our leaders, we're stewarding our relationships with them.

29:59We're making them the best employees possible. We're helping them achieve results inside the organization for a season of time. And so I don't have to fill this thing of like, I'm going to be here forever. I just have to remind myself I'm here for a season of time and I'm going to pour into this employee as best I can right now. Or I'm going to communicate this change the best I can right now because I'm stewarding right now versus just what seems like forever sometimes. Megan, you brought up safety and I'm so glad that you did because that is the heart of a lot of fear and uncertainty. You know, am I safe?

30:34Am I safe to ask questions here? Am I safe to challenge the status quo? I mean, is my voice going to be heard? Is my job safe? Is my team safe? And I think we have to remind ourselves as leaders that once you've made a decision and communicated it, you've thought about it for weeks, maybe months, and you've resolved that this is it. but your team members are hearing it for the first time. And they're going to need time and a safe space to contemplate it, to understand it, to embrace it, to interrogate it and decide if it's something that they are on board for. And we have to create that safe space for them to be able to trust us in our leadership through the change.

31:18I think that is so hard to remember. I find it personally so frustrating because I'm like, this is such a great idea. You know, like, why can't y 'all get excited about it? It's like, well, you've had 10 times longer to think about it, Megan, and you got to make the decision and we're just, you know, we're receiving the decision. I think that's been a real growth edge for me to, Joel says, show my work, you know, to really explain how I got to the decision. Cause by the time it's getting communicated to the team, it's been kind of marinating for a long time and it's packaged and it's all, you know, and so I can forget like people need to go on that journey, albeit, you know, not on the same timeline, but still like they need the benefit of our thinking, not just the conclusion, especially, you know, for people who are more risk averse.

32:05And I think anytime you have less control or power in a situation, which is the case of being an employee, you know, other people are making decisions that intimately affect the daily realities of your life. Then you need to understand in order to feel safe, you kind of need to understand how do we get to this point of making a decision. I got a little taste of my own medicine in this because I was on sabbatical one year and Megan and the team came up. They decided they're going to rename the company because it was Michael Heide company. And they decided they were going to rename it full focus.

32:34And so they like, they did a whole deck and they - In fairness, I'll just tell part of the story. In fairness, the marketing team actually came up with this idea as we were working on some branding updates. So they came up with this idea. they presented it to me and I just got so excited about it. I was like, oh my gosh, I had no. So obvious it should happen. Kind of like you guys, you know, where we had several different entities that we needed to figure out how to make more cohesive from a front facing side of things. And one of their solutions was that we need to change the name of the company and kind of bring everything in under one roof.

33:09And I'm like, this is a solution we've been looking for. This is brilliant. And oh, we're we're taking my dad's name off the company. I sort of forgot about it. It gets better. What better time to do it than when he's out of the office. I know, right? Well, then what they did was Megan had recorded that meeting because it, well, did you record it on zoom? Some people weren't present. I don't remember, but yeah, we did record it. Yeah. So anyway, so she sends me the video and she says, Hey dad, you might want to watch this and kind of catch up. Like that was literally all the prep. I was very new.

33:39Okay. Like I'm just going to say that I was very new. And so I watched it and I think this is important. for business owners to remember about the teams they lead is I first experienced that as an emotional impact, not an intellectual idea. And man, it hit me hard. It was like a gut punch because it was really challenging me at the level existentially of my identity. Yeah. You know, who am I? What does this mean? And all that. Now, thank God, I only need about 24 hours to work through it. Then I thought it was brilliant, but it was a tough 24 hours. And I think it's just good to remember what it's like to be on the receiving end of this.

34:18There are stakeholders always who will be impacted. Sometimes that's our customers and our clients. Sometimes that's certain employees who maybe their title is going to change or they're going to move to a different team or maybe their positions are going to get eliminated or maybe they think it could get eliminated or they're going to be promoted. or then sometimes like in this case, you know, this was not a leading down the org chart. This is a leading up thing. And I just failed to think about it at all. I mean, I got so excited about the big picture that I forgot about the most important stakeholder in the whole company, just the founder.

34:53He might want to know. And, you know, I should have handled that differently. And I think it was a good moment for both of us to just go, Oh, we don't get to feel this very often. We don't screw it up very often, at least that we know of, but sometimes we screw it up

35:10spectacularly. One thing that I've discovered now having gone through the kind of the whole life cycle of founding with Shannon and then having a majority recap for the business of Belay and then other businesses we're now involved in, there's these stages that we've seen. So like when you're, when you're a hustler and you're just in the early few months of starting your business up, you can just make decisions. You can just like, yeah, go with this bank and do this. It's just, it's like that. And then, you know, you kind of move into the entrepreneur stage and then the CEO stage and the systems and processes.

35:38And I feel like that's about the point where I started getting itchy. I naturally will be like, well, why are we doing this? And all my natural response is because I was here first, right? Or, you know, like just do it. And you can't do that anymore. And it's frustrating. So that we kind of got to a season like where with Belay, we knew this thing has more to go and it's going to be this big thing. But man, to make a decision feels like it takes forever to happen. And so recognizing where you are stage wise as the owner of a business is very important in terms of how you communicate change, how you pour into people.

36:11And you have to evolve in your understanding of your business organization as well. Because I'll admit, I did not do a good job at that. That was an area of like, why aren't we doing this? I remember one time Trisha called me. She's like, well, we thought about your idea. And we think it's a good idea and we're going to start building an implementation plan for it. And I'm like, could you just do it right now? Like, I know that's important, but how about like right now? Like, just hang up and just do that thing. You just can't do that as you're scaling your business.

36:51I want to talk about Owner. This is your nonprofit. It's O apostrophe. In R. Which I love. Which is very clever. Yeah, very cool. What was it that was the impetus for that? You know, we've always loved mentoring. We've been recipients of it throughout our lives, personally and professionally. And over the years have had the opportunity to invest in other business owners more on a one to four, one to six ratio. And I think that's just kind of how our hearts are wired. It's kind of like feeling like, oh, this is more of the why we've been successful in business, not some of the things on paper, but like there's an ability to have influence and inspire people through the story that's been written through us.

37:40And so as we've entered into this season, post-belay essentially, and Nofo really has from day one operated without our direct day-to-day involvement, we built that entirely different. We're looking toward legacy. And what do we want the second half of our lives to be filled with? Do we want to keep creating new businesses? No, ma 'am. No, thank you. I do not. I think we're good on that. Other than this one that we're currently building, but that's different. Sounds like an addict to me. We just can't help ourselves. But I really think that our desire to start owner is birthed from a heart of mentoring and creating a system and a platform for more people to be impacted by creating safe space, a safe harbor for business owners to talk about feelings of isolation and the financial challenges that are presented with business ownership and the ego that comes along with that.

38:40What, you want to take my name off the company? Like, who can you talk to about those sorts of things? Friends and family are there and they love you, but there's an understanding business owner to business owner that can be very difficult to find. And this isn't a follow this system and you too will grow your business by TEDx. This is a show up as a wholehearted person, as somebody who wants, is very much in line with what you guys are doing, you know, and the work that you're putting out there in the world of like, it's not just about winning at business. It's who are you at home and how do you show up and what does personal development look like and leadership and creating a community to have those types of conversations.

39:20That's our heart behind owner. Was part of this born out of a challenge? Like I can tell you that our work at Full Focus and particularly the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life, came out of my failure to do that because I was all about work and wasn't paying attention to my life. And there came a moment where that was, you know, brought into sharp relief and I had to make a big change. So was there anything like that for you guys where you realize that there's some other issues that have got to be attended to that it can't be all work. And I think for most of my clients and so forth, they will tell me their work is their hobby and they don't have any time for anything else.

39:58And hopefully, you know, their health will work out and their family will work out, but they're all in on the business, but they're not all in on everything else. Yeah, I think the heart for owner did come out of mentoring personally. I mean, I can't, and our gratitude for mentors that have poured into us And the other thing too, like with owner is that we're just showing them our playbook and it's, you know, we're a nonprofit. We've injected plenty of money to get this thing going. And we're proud of that because it's part of our legacy, but like we're the recipients of great wisdom and we are the recipients of God given experience that we can share with others.

40:34And it's our playbook. It's not the playbook on how you do it. And we hope that by just sharing our story through our documentary and through our docu-series that we're doing, we're just hoping that people will go, oh, I can identify with that. And I don't have to be as lonely. And I can really wrestle through how to get my employees to understand certain things differently and how to kind of scale and grow something. Our desire is to just kind of teach these things and give them away in a way that business owners do feel like there's a safe harbor. And the other thing that really, it used to be, you know, when I was a kid, you know, and I was in Missouri, you would go down the street to the hardware store and you would celebrate the business owner that owned the hardware store.

41:13They're like, oh, look, there's the hardware store owner, right? And it seems like today there's this different narrative of like business owners are like greedy or their business owners are like they're out for just themselves. And there's this prevailing sense of like, they're not a pillar of the community anymore. And it breaks my heart to see that. So part of owner is basically giving people that have been isolated through whatever reason, a place to come in and go, man, it's hard out there. Is anybody experiencing this? Can anybody else relate and realize you're not alone? And then how do we make this a better environment for us collectively as business owners?

41:47So is there an in-person community component to this or any kind of community? I obviously said there's a documentary, there's a docuseries. What's kind of the follow up to that? Yeah, there are a couple of virtual events that we're planning for this year and then an in-person event in October that will be at the event center, which is that other business I mentioned that we're starting. So, yeah, that's our vision right now. I could foresee as this community is established and grows the possibility of cohorts and some ongoing engagement, but we haven't quite gotten that far yet. But I could, if this works, right, and people are interested, I could see there being a lot of value in that continued connection.

42:31I love that. You know, we lead two masterminds in our business for business owners. And we just started those last year. We've been involved with masterminds for a long time. And we also coach on a limited basis one-on-one. But the one in particular that I lead just for women business owners, so much of what you're saying resonates with me and was kind of the impetus behind that. And that's just a, you know, it's a small group and has far less reach than what you guys are talking about. But what I found as a female business owner, who's also mom, is that, you know, I go to my kids football games or other things.

43:08And when I mentioned that I was a business owner, the conversation would just shut down with other moms, you know, because in where we live, most other moms in that context are stay at home moms, which is great. You know, nothing wrong with that at all. but it was kind of like I had to play small in order to not threaten other moms, you know, and then it's like, I can relate to their husbands more than I can relate to them. And that's kind of weird. And like, it's just all weird, you know? And so what I found is that over time, I just would be quiet. I just would try to not ever talk about work.

43:40And that's still somewhat true, you know, in those settings. And I thought, you know, what is really needed for women business owners, but I think this is true for any business owners is, like you said, Brian, a place where you can have a safe harbor where you can come in and you don't have to pretend to be more than you are and have more answers than you do and kind of be the cheerleader, Shannon, like you said earlier. And you also don't have to play small and pretend that you, you know, what you're doing isn't significant, you know, for fear of threatening other people or being able to talk about financial concerns, good or bad, that you're experiencing.

44:14And, you know, now I'm almost a year into this group, into both of these groups. We have one that's co-ed that we lead and then we have this one that I have this one that's just for women and the relationships that have formed with those women is just unbelievable. It is incredible. First of all, how much they resonated with this. So I think you guys are going to be very successful. There's just so much need out there. And then what it has meant for them to be able to share, you know, some HR thing that they're dealing with, you know, some really tricky situation with an employee that they're like agonizing.

44:48And I think that's one of the things that if you're an individual contributor, you might not know about business owners is those personnel things. That is the hardest, that and the financial stuff, that's the hardest part of it. And we agonize over that, but it's amazing what happens when you realize you don't have to do it alone and that other people are like, Oh yeah, me too. Yeah. Last week I had to let somebody go, or I found out an employee was doing this, or, you know, I thought I'd hired a great person, but then they got a better opportunity and they went somewhere. And now, now I'm kind of back to square one, you know, all that sort of stuff.

45:17It's, I just think like there's so much loneliness in our world right now in all kinds of ways. And, you know, that's a whole podcast all by itself, but any way that in our work that we have the chance to alleviate that aloneness, I think is so valuable. So I love that you guys are doing this and wish you all the greatest success with it because it's so needed. So needed. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. We have kind of three lightning round questions that we always ask, and it's all about the double win. Sort of the rules of the game are you've got to pretend you're on the honest planet and you're only talking to us.

45:52There are not thousands of people that will be listening to this. It's just us. So the first question is, what's your biggest obstacle in getting the double win? Like right now. Yeah, experiencing life balance, human flourishing. What's the biggest obstacle right now for you guys? My palms are sweaty, Mike. Like honestly, I did. When I am in a season of stress, I procrastinate big time. And I am in a season of stress and I am procrastinating on things. And so I wrote down this morning in my full focus planner that this is not the week for procrastination. This is the week for action. So it's me.

46:35I'm standing in my own way. That's awesome. Thank you for being so honest. Brian, what about you? being, being very mindful of my body and being responsible for that is as important as my walk with God, my relationships with Shannon, our business success. Like, and so I think for me, that's one area that it's easy for me to just go, I'll get to it tomorrow or I don't have to jump on the treadmill right now. And so just recognizing that it's all got to work together, body and your, you know, your relationship with God and your balance and your businesses, like they all got to work together. And I find that I struggle probably with the body element the most.

47:13Makes sense. Okay. How do you know when you've personally gotten the double win, when you're winning at work and succeeding at life? I have been going through some self-guided internal family systems work. Oh, yeah. I have learned so much about myself and my parts and the importance of distinguishing them and and learning from my parts and then the self that kind of encompasses all of that. So I think when I check in with my parts and everybody's good and nobody's screaming for attention and everybody's been heard, then that's when I know I've gotten the double win. Like when I'm checking in with my parts and everybody's good.

47:54That's great. It's equal parts, peace and exhaustion. Literally when I go to bed at night and I feel like I'm at peace, but I earned my sleep, then I feel like I'm hitting on all cylinders. I don't mean like exhaustion until you're getting sick. I just mean from a day of like good work or a day of helping others. Yeah, and so for me, that's what that looks like is peace and I'm ready for bed. I love it. I don't think we've ever gotten that answer before. No, I like that. It's a very good one. It's really cool. Okay, last question. What's one ritual or routine that helps you get the double win?

48:30It's too soon to say, but I'm creating a ritual of the cold plunge. I'm jumping into the game. Oh man. And it's interesting, but I do like it and I like the benefits of it for sure. But it's too soon to say, I'd say one thing that has been a consistent part of my life for over two decades is journaling. And people go, I don't know how you journal. And is it just conscious stream of thought? I generally oftentimes will just ask myself a question at the top of my journal and then just answer the question. And so that's how I journal is, you know, what does my mind need to solve today or what am I thinking for, you know, and ask that question and solve for it in the words below.

49:07Journaling for me has been such a release and such a gift. And one day, you know, I can, our kids are going to have these things and they're in the safe and they can just go in there and go, wow, my dad was really messed up. Or, you know, he was also, you know, wow. He was, he was human. He suffered. This explains a lot. He went through things just like everybody. What about you, Shannon? I think, you know, I have an ideal work week like a lot of us do. And when I hold to that, I'm double winning all over the place, right? So starting my morning with exercise and journaling and meditation, I feel like after that, I could just tackle the day and have success.

49:47It's when I have to, I'm going to put that in quotes because do I have to? No, these are all choices. But when things have to creep into that time because of constraints and time sensitive things that I don't have the option necessarily of pushing back, if that happens too often, that's when I get really cagey and I get really irritable and I'm not a great person to be around. And so that's where I take it upon myself to say, no, I'm the only one that can protect that time and set myself up for success with those rituals that I know are going to make for a better day. That's so good. I'm very similar to that too.

50:26Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a blast just to reminisce and talk about what you're doing and learn from you. So thank you. Thank you. You guys are awesome. And we really appreciate the opportunity to share more and just love you guys very much. We love you too. And we'll link to all the resources we've talked about in the show notes. Appreciate you having us on.

50:56Okay, Meg, I've got a lot of takeaways from this, but I'm only going to share a few. But I think some of the things that stood out for me is this whole idea about not forgetting if you're a business owner, what it's like to be an employee. And if you're an employee, it's helpful to understand what it's like to be a business owner. Yeah. Because I think a lot of unnecessary conflict and frustration and anxiety happens when we forget these things. Yeah. And I think it's funny. We can get frustrated in both directions. I've certainly had employees frustrated with me. I've certainly been frustrated with employees.

51:30And with me. Well, yes. That's another story. That's another podcast. No, just kidding. But I think that a lot of that comes from our assumptions about the motives of other people, which are usually wrong, you know, and I think employees want to feel safe and they want to feel like they have agency and that they're really being considered, you know, and I think that sometimes is inconvenient for business owners. And it's not that they don't care exactly. It's just that their focus is so big picture. They sort of forget about the importance of really incorporating the team and casting vision down to the individual contributor level.

52:05And business owners get frustrated because it's kind of like they don't have any peers in the business. They can't talk to anybody about the things that are hard, except maybe their spouse or other business owners. And sometimes, you know, we get so busy, we don't stay as connected as we need to. And that was one of my takeaways was just the loneliness of business owners. And I would say it's not just business owners. Having led a public company where I wasn't the owner, although I own some stock, but I was working for a board of directors, that was equally lonely. Actually no different at all.

52:35And I know that we have a lot of people in our audience that they're in some kind of leadership position. And it's very easy to think that you alone are having this problem, that nobody else has had this problem. When in point of fact, if you get with other leaders, you'll find out that they're very normal. You know, one of the things that I've really learned from my mastermind over the last year, really from both of our masterminds, but I was thinking in particular about the one for women, is that oftentimes as leaders, and I think that's inclusive of whether you work for someone or you work for yourself, that we think, you know, if we're struggling with a personnel issue, you know, somebody on our team, that that must be because we're not good at leadership.

53:16And it's almost never true. Everybody struggles with it because people are the hardest part of anything, any part of your life. I mean, where does the most pain in your life come from? It's probably people. Where does the most joy come from? Probably people. It's just complicated. And it's inherent in the job of leadership that you're going to have challenges with people. And I just keep seeing over and over again in both of our masterminds, how much people struggle with that. And then that's really like a catalyst for self-doubt. And I think part of why, whether it's something like Owner or Mastermind like we have or, you know, our coaching program or like, you need to be in something where you can see that other people, you're not actually as unique as you think you are.

53:58And that is such good news because what it turns out as you just have normal human problems. So true. And it's okay. You're doing a better job than you think. And I think, we didn't get into this specifically, but I think that the way I think about work, I don't care what your work is, whether you're working for somebody or you have people working for you and you're the owner, your work is the arena in which you train. That it's all about personal development. Yeah. It's like Jim Kelly, your assistant, has said, and I don't think this is original to him, but he's quoting somebody. He says, this is the curriculum.

54:26Yeah. You know, it's like when you're in the middle of something hard, this is the curriculum. It's like, this is making you who you need to be. And that kind of helps. And I think it was refreshing to hear that people, even at their level, struggle with saying no. Yeah. Because that's something I continue to struggle with. Yes. And I think a lot of it is because I'm a recovering people pleaser. I don't like to disappoint people. The missing out part of it, that doesn't really affect me that much. But you don't want people to think bad things about you. Yeah, that's right. Or say like, you know, you're just...

54:55Too big for my britches. Yeah, or whatever. Yeah. So I think anytime we can get help with that and encouragement with that, do you feel the guilt when you say no? Or are you without conscience? I am without conscience. No. I do. I do feel guilty. The thing I feel the most guilty about is not necessarily external. I'm not quite as externally focused as you are in the sense that I'm not out speaking a lot. So I don't get a lot of people I don't know reaching out to ask for things. What I find difficult is when I have to continue to narrow down what I'm doing in order to be a good steward. And that means that I have to not attend meetings that people would like me to be at internally, you know, or be involved in things.

55:42And it's not that it's bad. I mean, I was actually telling one of our executives the other day, it's like, the decisions are no longer between bad and good. Like, that's easy. That's easy. It's good and great. And it's like the stewardship question of, is this truly the highest and best use of my time? Not just a good use of time. Because the answer to it, is it a good use of time? Unless you're just like wasting time, the answer is probably yes. But that's not a good enough question. And that's, I think that's hard. You know, when you know that you could add value there, like it would be beneficial to the people that you're with.

56:14It's just that it's going to come at the expense of the most important thing. That's right. It's hard for people on the other side sometimes to understand because, first of all, every request viewed by itself in isolation from the rest of your life is reasonable. Yeah. Right? They're just asking for a few minutes or a half an hour or for an hour. Right. But if you're not careful, you die the death of a thousand cuts because all these no's add up. Yes. And I've looked at my calendar like you probably have. Or all the yeses. Yes, all those yeses are there. And I'm like, why is my calendar so full?

56:48Because you said yes, one yes at a time. That's exactly right. Oof, yeah. And so I'm trying to do better, but it's hard. And it was encouraging to hear that they still struggle with this. Right. But they also have some solutions around it too. They're being brave. And that's what I think it takes a lot of is courage. Yeah, I think that's unfortunately, it always comes back to that. Well, guys, we hope you enjoyed this episode of The Double Win. do us a favor, rate the program, write a short review. It won't take but a few minutes, but it'll help us get this message out of winning at work and succeeding at life.

57:20Thanks for joining us.