DANIEL HARKAVY: Coaching Yourself Toward Flourishing

27:30I don't care if Hyatt's on there or not. I'm going to hang out with my wife all day. And I had some of those Mondays. So Monday management dates can turn into intimate fun dates. And I've got a lot of rituals and rhythms around marriage. I love that so much, especially because so I'm probably about in that season where you may have been back then, you know, with kids similar ages. And, you know, the logistics of running a family and a whole life outside of work is next level. Yeah. You know, just candidly, I would say that's something that Joel and I have struggled with is how do you sort of get all that stuff taken care of?

28:09Because you're not going to just do it like over coffee in the morning when the kids are waking up, you're trying to get everybody out the door to school. Like it's too crazy and you don't have enough time to just kind of get your head in the space. And so it can be so easy to default to that. Let's say you have a date night, you know, that's winning right there that you even have that on your calendar is fantastic. But it can easily become a logistics conversation and a meeting and not a date. But I love the idea of splitting it into two and having one of them during the daytime. So you're not like trying to find a babysitter two times in the same week or anything.

28:39I mean, I think that's a real breakthrough because then it's like you can both just relax and be present with each other at the fun date because you've handled all the other stuff. And I know just as a wife and a mom, as well as a CEO, if I don't have that stuff taken care of, if those loops are all open in my head, I can't be present for the fun. It was a great strategy. So I'm very grateful for it. I think I mentioned to you, Sherry just yesterday was explaining the power of it to our oldest daughter, who's 34, and she's the mother of a four-year-old. And Sherry was explaining to her how beneficial that was for our marriage.

29:16So that was a big one. And depending upon where people are from a financial resource perspective, don't think that it needs to be all that expensive. You can do dates, in such creative ways. Last night, we watched two of our granddaughters for our son and his wife. And on Sunday nights, we get to watch them. They go to evening church and they go out on a date night. And they came home last night. We were at their house. What'd you guys do for your date? And just creative. They went to Whole Foods. They created a little picnic basket. And then they went to this cool office setting that's part of the building champions and set path offices where there's a really nice living room kind of setup.

29:57No one's there at eight at night and they had their date night there. You look at just the budget perspective. Sherry and I had date nights sitting on the tailgate of the truck, sitting out at a park. We did dates in so many different creative ways. So regardless of where you're at on the budget side, you just need to make it a priority because if you don't, you just need to imagine dates and getaways are adding logs to the fire. If you don't go on them, the fire will go out. Chances are the flame's going to go out. So you need to keep doing the things that created the flame in the first place.

30:32You stoked the fire. You dated. You wrote love notes. You bought flowers. You held hands. You did all those things. Log on the fire. Log on the fire. Log on the fire. And then for some reason, many of us, we get married and we just think that, oh, okay, now all we need to do is turn the gas on and the thing will burn forever. No, wrong. Bad. I had a funny experience a couple of weeks ago. Gail was off with her college roommates. They get together once a year. And so she was flying in, and I was going to pick her up at the airport. And so one of my clients, Hillary Walsh, said to me, she said, well, I think you should definitely park your car, take flowers, and go in and meet her when she comes out of security.

31:11Now, I'm thinking to myself, that's enormously inefficient. If I take extra time, I'll have to get there extra early, and I'll just meet her at the curb. And Hillary says, I'm telling you, nothing will say she's a priority like that. So I thought, okay. Now, I was a little bit fearful because I knew I was going to be setting precedent here. So I can never pull up to the curb ever again. So I went and bought flowers. Okay, but you have to talk about what the flowers look like because this is kind of like a fun part of the story. Well, by the time we had this conversation, I had this conversation with Hillary as a coaching session where she was coaching me.

31:50The only place I could go and get decent flowers is that they have an actual flower shop at the airport. I bought them at the airport. But this is Nashville. Don't forget, this is in Nashville. The vase was a ceramic boot. And so I said, well, do you have anything other than boots? She said, it's Nashville. But Gail was so surprised. I was kind of hiding back in the shadows. So she came through security. And I literally had to walk up to her parallel and say, hey, babe. And she was like startled. and I mean, Jesus was over the moon. And I thought, wow, I need more of that in my life. Well, we could have a whole counseling session on that, my friend.

32:28So I want to go there, but I'm going to let you continue to drive on the double win. Good job on buying the flowers. Excellent. And we get paid for this coaching stuff. Oh my gosh. I just love that they were in the boot too. You know, it just makes it even better, even better. It's funny because I was walking to my flowers before I saw Gail. there was this little group of TSA workers. And when I walked by, they were like, you know, oh, baby, who are those for? And I said, my wife of 46 years. And they were like cackling and having fun with me. And it was great. So good. I want to turn the corner just a little bit here.

33:08And I want to talk about leaders thinking of themselves as coaches. Now you've written an outstanding book on this topic that I've referred now to both of my masterminds in the last couple of weeks. It's called Becoming a Coaching Leader. Go to Amazon and order it if you're listening to this. We'll have a link in the show notes. But when did it occur to you that leadership, even if you're not a professional coach, is really about coaching? Thank you for your kind words and the role you played in my writing that book. So folks, what you don't know is when I first started coaching Michael, He was a group publisher at Thomas Nelson.

33:48So as my client, his job was to find authors and to help them to write wonderful books that were going to sell lots of copies. And he encouraged me to write a book. And Becoming a Coaching Leader was that book. And that came out in 2007. So it's been out there a bit. And Michael, I really appreciate the encouragement. So what caused me to write that and what caused me to believe that the best leaders were coaching leaders was really my own experience when I was in my 20s. I was given my first management leadership role at 23. I had really no education in business or in management, no college degree.

34:22And for some reason, I was very, very fortunate because I had a real passion and desire to learn from other people. And I was successful as a consultant in the mortgage space. So as a mortgage consultant or a loan officer, I was given an opportunity to become a branch manager. and my method of building a branch that went on to dominate in that area in Los Angeles, dominate in the company, we did just a lot of business. It was all the result of me meeting with the best of the best who worked for the competition. I would go into different markets. I would find out who was the absolute best. I would meet with them.

35:02In my meeting with them, I would really learn about them, what drove them, what were their goals, what were their interests, what held them back. And then the meeting would end and I would end the meeting with my next meeting, date and time scheduled. And I would just think about what can I do to help them to succeed? And my belief was if I can add more value to them than their current manager does, well, then they're going to want to come work with me. And it worked. Many of them did. So you take that And then you start that at the age 23. By the time I left there at the age 30, I was running all 17 offices throughout the Western United States.

35:37It was a wonderful career. I took a one-year sabbatical at the age 30. And when I started building champions with this whole desire to coach business and life on purpose, what I realized was that in that one-year sabbatical, a lot of the people that had worked with me at the mortgage company or that I had been associated with during those times, they still called me for input. They were still looking for that coaching. So you fast forward again another decade and there was an organization where the leaders wanted to bring what I was doing for them as their coach at Building Champions. They wanted to learn how to do it for their people.

36:22So they were the first licensees of our content and we turned them into coaching leaders and the results they got were undeniable. Those coached versus their non-coached peers outperformed their non-coached peers in four quadrants by anywhere from 22 to 66%. Coaching leadership led to results. So that has been a conviction of ours. It's been a main product of ours. It's a way we help many leaders. It's just to understand how you can really build a wonderful organization if one of your priorities is helping your people to be the best they can be and helping them to be wildly successful. I think it's a crucial concept because when I was early in my career, we referred to people that were leaders as managers.

37:11And when you manage something, it's about control. and the systems and the processes and even the people are part of the cogs in the machine. So then at some point, somebody developed the language of leadership, which was a big improvement. You know, it doesn't mean that you forsake everything about management, but leadership is a different kind of thing. And then there was this spin on it. I think Ken Blanchard probably talked about this the most about servant leadership. Yes. Where you're there to serve the people. But what I think is so ingenious about your language, about the coaching leader, is immediately it shifts from what can people do for me, how can they serve me as the leader, to, oh, my job is to add value to make them successful and for them to realize their potential.

38:02And I've had this conversation almost by coincidence, because we were together two weeks ago, maybe, but when I'm talking to some of my clients, they're still kind of caught in one of those older paradigms. And I've just said, you know, especially when people want to get rid of employees that they haven't coached. And I said to them, I said, look, you've got two choices. Either you can take the raw material that comes through the front door and coach them up and develop them into amazing teammates. Or you can spend a ton of money and try to find those rare, rare people that have it all together when they come through the front door.

38:40And that's the very expensive way to do it. And it's also not as satisfying. But to me, the measure of your leadership is can you take the raw material that walks through the front door and can you turn those into extraordinary leaders? And that's where the coaching leader comes in. Okay. I have a very practical question because there are probably people listening who are like, this all sounds amazing, but I'm not exactly sure practically what this would mean. So Daniel, can you explain, maybe like in a one-on-one context, if you're a leader and you have a direct report and you're having a weekly or a bi-weekly one-on-one, how is it different if you are a coaching leader as opposed to just like a regular manager?

39:20Yeah, it's a really great question. And it's going to connect to my most recent book as well. In 2020, I had the seven perspectives of effective leaders come out where one of the perspectives is the perspective of the team. We have to have a core belief as leaders that our people know a lot more about the business in their area than we do. So we develop this sense of intentional curiosity. In a one-on-one, when you're a coaching leader, you demonstrate this intentional curiosity by asking your teammate how they're doing, where they're winning, where they're having challenges, what resources they need, where are they challenging themselves, where are they stepping up, what would success look like in the week or two or month ahead if they, you're a thinking partner with them.

40:09You're not managing them, telling them what to do. You're actually calling them up and helping them to see who they can be and expecting that and then engaging in a conversation that will enable them to go from here to there. So it's a lot of questions. Management meetings are a lot of telling. Coaching sessions are a lot of asking. Great coaching leaders are disciplined with coaching one-on-ones. They take copious notes. They follow up. We've developed the whole coaching leader system around that book. We've got an e-course on it at Building Champions. Our coaches coach our clients through it.

40:44It's a strategy, Michael, that it's pretty crazy because I wrote that 2005, 2006. It comes out in 2007. I think it's more needed today in 2024 than it was back then. Absolutely.

41:04Another book on that topic that's really good, just to drill into what Daniel is sharing, and I probably need to read it every week, is The Advice Trap. Yeah. Or The Coaching Habit, both of them by Michael Bungay-Stanier. And they're so effective. I don't know if you've read those, Daniel, but those are really good. They're going to go on my list. Okay. You're going to like them. Okay. So how do you, Daniel, how do you combat that impulse to do more talking than listening? Tell me this happens to you too. Oh gosh, yes. Oh gosh, yes. It happens to all of us, especially when we're maxed. Like if I'm redlining and I don't have patience, probably not going to be a great coaching session.

41:43So preparing for my one-on-ones, reviewing everything that we're going to talk about, understanding and believing what the end game is, what's the desired end result of the one-on-one. The desired end result of all one-on-ones is that our people are better equipped to do their job, to win in business and in life as a result of them investing 30, 60, 90 minutes with you. That's always the outcome. They're better equipped. They have more belief. They have more competence. They have more skill as a result of time with me. That isn't going to be because I come in and I start telling them what to do.

42:18I'm going to ask and care and help them to discover. Now, there will be times where I will be directive. Some people will not believe in the strategy because they're going to think, well, what do you do with the teammate who's not performing? Well, manage them. Manage them. Be clear with them. You're not performing. I want you to perform. Do you believe you can perform? This is what performance looks like. What's going to be required in order for you to go there? I want you to understand the consequences of failure. Let's be clear right up front. That's management. Coaching is, wow, you just had a tough management meeting.

42:51All right, now what do you need to succeed? How am I going to help you? Do you believe you can do it? All right, let's resource this thing. You should go talk to so and so. Read this book. Hey, practice this. First of all, I think one of the things I hear a lot from either people I coach or my own direct reports, I certainly felt within myself, although I think I've developed some ability over time, but is the courage to have the first part of the conversation. Because a lot of times, dad, to your point a few minutes ago, when people are ready to let somebody go and you ask them, have you talked to them about it?

43:23Usually they'll say yes. Sometimes they'll say no, but usually they'll say yes. And then when you say, okay, what kind of conversations have you had? It's very clear that they've kind of danced around the issue or, you know, they haven't had the direct part of the conversation. So the person doesn't really understand that there's a problem. You know, they, it's like, they think what's happening, the leader thinks what's happening in their own head and heart is somehow transparent. And it's not, you know, they've only got like whatever you said to them is what they've walked away with and your body language and your tone and all that.

43:52But then to be able to flip it and not have it be all management, to be able to go into coaching. I mean, that that's like Jedi master level. I led our, our building champions team meeting this morning. So every Monday morning at seven 30 for two plus decades, everyone shows up on a zoom screen. And back before zoom, we used whatever apps we used, the old polycoms and whatever there was, WebExes and all that stuff, because our coaches are spread throughout the country. And we always start off with the same thing. We share a bit of vision and then we connect it to the business and then we do a business update and then we have some optional time.

44:30So this morning I had the privilege of sharing and I might do that a few times a year now. But this morning what I shared was I shared the part of our vision where I talk about team. And I just talked about how at this stage in my career, what I'm most proud of, what I'm most excited about is when I hear how our team is being used to create transformation in the businesses and the lives of our clients. And over the last few weeks, I had some pretty highlight moments, real like career watermark, amazing. And it was the result of what other people on the team are doing. They're better than I am.

45:09I have so many people on my team that are better coaches. They're better. They coach leadership. They coach executives. They coach CEO mentor. They do all of that. And they're better than I am. I think that is really what needs to be at the heart of a coaching leader is it's not that you're just comfortable with your people being better than you are. You actually desire it. Like I want that. I think there's some wisdom to that. You mentioned the seven perspectives of effective leaders. And when somebody puts a number on something, if our listeners are like I am, I immediately want to know, okay, what are the seven things?

45:47So what are the seven perspectives? Because you've kind of referred to them, but could you just walk us through that? Yeah. And whenever you put a number on something, if you're my wife, you sit there and you say, well, what makes you think there's only seven? I love you, Sherry. but there's a story in that. It used to be the five perspectives. And well, what makes you think there's five? It's five. I know it. And then all of a sudden I was like, oh, shoot, there's six. And oh, you should write a book. Yeah, I'm not going to write a book. It just doesn't feel right. And then finally the seventh hit and seven's perfect.

46:16And that's the number. So here's the premise of the book. A leader's effectiveness is determined by just two things. Let's not overcomplicate it. The decisions they make and the influence they have. End of story. I'm not talking about whether you're a good leader or a bad leader. I just want to talk about whether you're an effective leader. It will all be measured by the decisions that you make and the influence that you have. Now, in today's fast-moving, psycho-crazy, VUCA world we live in, you better have intentional curiosity if you're going to elevate decision-making and influence. If you, as your husband Joel says, Megan, if you think you have all the knowledge, well, then you are not learning.

46:52And if you're not learning, you're toast. Perspective one, if you really want to make great decisions and have maximum influence. You demonstrate intentional curiosity in current reality. If you don't understand the current reality of the business, you are going to become an ivory tower, disconnected leader that everybody talks about and they create workarounds because you just don't understand it. Business works, leading indicators, lagging indicators, the historical high points and low points, the real levers that need to be pulled in order for the business to operate and how it's doing, not just now, but in the year ahead.

47:29The year ahead is part of current reality as is the past. Perspective two is long-term vision. If you don't have a vision that is clear enough to build plans from and compelling enough to cause you to want to stretch, well, then you don't have a destination point. So Michael, like you and I talked about with Living Forward, GPS, current reality is the starting point. Vision is the destination. that clear and compelling vision gets shared over and over and over again to remind people of why we're risking why we're aligning why we're changing which is always difficult that vision should lead to a better destination it's three five ten twenty thirty years down the road you look at those that creates the opportunity gap because current realities here that's where we're headed well there's an opportunity now to improve perspective three perspective three are strategic bets.

48:23What bets are grounded in current reality? So they're resourced well, we understand the business, they're grounded here, and then they're anchored in that long-term vision. So now we see clearly where we're headed. So we don't drift. When you look at how many businesses fail in the execution of strategy, it's because they're not grounded in reality or anchored in a long-term destination. Strategic bets, they're disproportionately resourced, they've got a leader, There's a rhythm. They've got investment. There's gates that you know that whether you're succeeding or failing, you need to readjust.

48:59Perspective four is the perspective of the team. The curious leader is asking the team for their input on reality, on bets, on the business. They're always curious. What do you see? What do you see? Some of the best leaders I ever worked for when I was young and some of the best leaders that I've ever coached of organizations that are mega in comparison to us, gosh, they're just curious people and they want to know what the team thinks. They're always asking. They're always evaluating. They're wanting to know about the thinking of the teammate because they're not only thinking about today, they're thinking succession in the future.

49:35The next perspective is the perspective of the customer, perspective five. If we lose this perspective, we're toast. The perspective of the customer, what does the customer need? What do they think? How do they experience our product and service? How's their business challenged? Where do they see opportunity? Where are they going to be two, three, four years down the road? And how do we need to evolve in order to best facilitate what it is they're after? Whether it's a B2C business and it's a customer, where are they going? You know, a consumer or whether it's B2B. That used to be part of perspective one.

50:05That was part of current reality. And then when I realized some of my larger clients and the devotion the CEO and the executive teams have to spending time with the customers, I said, that needs to stand on its own. So we went from five perspectives to six. So that one was the sixth, almost complete. Then came the seventh. And the seventh happened in one of those shower moments, truth. Sherry's out just outside of the shower in the bathroom. I'm in the shower and I'm reflecting on the day before. And I'm thinking about being with the chief operating officer of a multi-billion dollar organization, Global, the day before.

50:41And the day before that, with the CEO and chairman of a company headquartered out of Europe, 30 billion plus. And I'm just thinking about the blessing of those two days. And what was it that these two leaders wanted when they spent their two days with me? They wanted a thinking partner. They wanted the perspective of the outsider, the seventh perspective. Great leaders. They have an outsider or outsiders to process with, to think with. where there's no skin in the game. Board members have skin in the game. Executive team has skin in the game. A mentor, a coach, an advisory group, a mastermind, et cetera.

51:21Those can all be outsiders that really all they want to do is just help you to think better and succeed. Every great leader gets the perspective of the outsider. Seven perspectives, that's it, done, books written. So there you go. Those are perfect. I'm glad you persevered till you got all seven perspectives because that last one is huge. And I think what a lot of unselfaware leaders do is that they assume that the feedback and the information that they're getting from their direct reports is 100 % true. Now, it's not that anybody's trying to usually trying to mislead them. It's just that they have a different perspective.

52:03and they've got how we'd say in the South, Daniel, is they don't, they have a dog in the hunt. Yep. Right. And the board can't see it either because everything is basically mediated through the CEO. And this is why, by the way, one of the challenges sometimes of therapy or coaching is all the coach or the therapist hears is what's mediated through the client. So you don't really have a 360 view unless you decide to go deeper. But I love that perspective with the outsider. Guys, you need to buy this book for seven perspectives of effective leaders. Thanks, man. Daniel, I feel like this has been five minutes long and I want to go for, you know, another hour or more, but alas, here we are.

52:47We'll have to just do a part two another time. Let's do it. Okay. So we have three questions that we ask all of our guests about the double win and this kind of a lightning round, but at the same time, these are big questions and I'm so excited to hear your answer. So the first one is what is the biggest obstacle for you in this season of your life in getting the double win? In 2020, when the world was a little nutty, I started a not-for-profit called Set Path. And that not-for-profit was to help young adults. We saw young adults falling apart and we saw it. So just the difficulty for teens through mid-20s to really finish that chapter and move into the next chapter because of all of the restrictions and the wackiness, right?

53:33So we started Set Path to bring life planning and mentorship to young adults for free. So it's a not-for-profit community benefit. And two of my sons left their furniture business to help me launch it. It has been a labor of love. We're always needing money. We had a technology partner that unfortunately was unable to deliver our scale vehicle, which was an app. So it is requiring energy from me and it creates stress in my life, creates real stress. So that will sometimes consume me and rob me from being present. It can also impact me as the CEO of Building Champions. And the CEO of Building Champions is a role that's transitioning.

54:13I have a team that's just so great. I really do believe that once the set path thing, we get it figured out, I think the double win is just a bit easier, But that would be my answer right now. Thank you for that. Because I think we've all got something like that in our life, you know, no matter what season you're in. And so it's helpful to know that you can do it imperfectly and still be striving for that and working toward it, even if it's not ideal because of whatever else is going on. And that really flows well into the second question. How do you know personally when you're getting the double win?

54:47Another Hebrew word, shalom. on my life plan for the last two years, I've had them labeled Shalom and Aloha. It's so you. With us, over the last years, spending more time with me being able to surf, which is always part of my double win in Hawaii. Aloha is love, right? It's this deep love. And I love the word, that's why I love the people of Hawaii so much. I love that. Shalom is peace. And it's this, general word for this great sense of peace. It's a fulfillment word. And I wake up grateful. I have to exercise the gratitude muscles. It does not mean that there's not pain. It doesn't mean that there's not a child dealing with a marriage issue or kids that want to have a baby and there's miscarriages or sick grandbabies because mold in the house.

55:43Megan, you know that story. Or financial pressures because business has been hard. All of that happens in my life. And I don't think the double win is an absence of problems. I think the double win is a perspective that enables you to be intentional in the areas where you can control and where you can influence. And for me, my faith is such a core piece of who I am. And it's a sense of connectedness and being a vessel that is used for goodness and loving people as a result of how I'm loved and that whole relationship. Love it. Okay. Last question is, what's one ritual or routine that you rely on to do what you do?

56:27My morning routine will make or break me. And my morning routine is my vacation every day. So I get a vacation first thing in the morning. I don't have to wake up early. I get to. And I get to wake up early in the morning and then I get to do my little rituals of, you know, Michael and I were talking to these young guys about it. It's, you know, coconut pulling. It's ACV, turmeric, anti-inflammatory, sunrise elixir drink first thing in the morning. It's Yerba Mate Tea. It's stretching. A lot of yoga in the morning. Face down. It's prayer. a deep, repetitive prayer that I've been praying for decades that has actually really impacted me.

57:10For me, it's my faith. It's time in the word. I love that. I sauna occasionally after the sauna. I'm in a very cold body of water, which was yesterday. Not today. That morning routine, a few hours before I engage with other humans, if I can get 90 minutes minimum and two hours ideal, Oh, it just fuels me up and I get to be who I want to be to everybody that crosses my path throughout the day. Most of the time. First of all, that makes me excited for when I'm in a season where mine can expand. I'm not sure about what you said at the beginning. I didn't understand about half of that and I might not be alone.

57:47We'll save that for another day, but I'll have my own. There's no booze in it. There's no booze in that morning elixir. So just don't worry about it. It's all good stuff. Well, buddy, thank you so much for joining us. You are such a joy. And every time I leave your presence, I feel inspired. And I think that's a testimony to the quality of your leadership and more importantly, to the character of who you are. So thank you for being that. Your words mean the world to me. I really appreciate it. I feel the same about both of you. I love you guys. A privilege to get to share with you. And my hope is that somehow in our crazy conversation, somebody, everybody listening finds something that they can implement and help them to experience the double win.

58:42Okay, Meg, what were your biggest takeaways from that conversation? I cannot believe how fast that went. Do we say that every time? We probably do. We probably do. My biggest takeaway, first of all, is that we needed two hours instead of one. I mean, I just felt like I was soaking it up. A couple things. I think the conversation about marriage was fantastic. When he shared with us privately before we pressed the record button, this idea of the Monday date lunch, the need to kind of pull apart the logistical planning of your life if you're married from the romantic part, I thought such a great thing because I have so have fallen into that mini a date night where Joel and I end up talking about, you know, the football recruiting plan or the kid that's struggling academically or the project that's due in science next week.

59:31And I love the idea of constraining that to a meeting and then having this time for us just to be together. So personally, I took a lot away from that. I just love it. I think my biggest takeaway was this perspective of an outsider and having a thinking partner. And I thought, wow, that's exactly what coaching is. But this is what I love about getting together with you, getting together with the team, is this collaboration. And I thought, you know, that's frankly for me in my journey through AI and learning to use it, that's become that for me kind of a thinking partner, but it's much better with people.

1:00:09And so, you know, I just, I'm just asking myself the question, how many outsiders do I have in my life so that I get that perspective? because it's very easy to get insular and siloed into your own little bubble. And I think I've mixed like three different metaphors there, but you get the idea. But I just think he's got so much wisdom. And for me, my highest value in life is wisdom. I mean, literally, it's number one on my core values list, personally, is wisdom. But it's because of people like Daniel. Well, if you were to ask me to describe him in one word, that's the word I would use. I didn't want to say this on the podcast because I thought, oh, it'll make him feel awkward.

1:00:47And now it's going to make him feel awkward when he can't even respond to it. And he's just listening to it here. But, you know, if you died tomorrow, I think he would be my first phone call. Really? I mean, not to like, I don't mean like phone calls to family and that kind of thing. But in terms of like just somebody that I could talk to about how to handle things and the transition and all of that, because one, I feel like he knows and loves you so well. But number two, because he's so wise. And I just feel like the guidance that he would give me would be thoughtful and measured and grounded, which is just a great example of a coach.

1:01:25I mean, I think that he's a person who gives leadership a good name. And I think we're living in a time where leadership does not have a good name in many ways, where we've kind of forgotten what it really means to be a leader. And I think the wisdom, the humility, the curiosity, the commitment to the development of others, you know, those things that he talks so much about, you know, when he was talking about being a coaching leader and these seven perspectives, it really inspires me to live up to a standard of leadership that we don't see enough of anymore. And I think part of it is, is when we don't have good examples and we don't know what to strive for and we just become selfish and narcissistic and, you know, self-serving in ways that are just all too common.

1:02:06I mean, we've seen it a gajillion times in the media and with celebrities and everything else. So true. You and I were talking before we got on about the way that Daniel expresses his faith. Now, I get that all of you are not people of faith or we don't share the same faith, but it's okay. I just like the fact that he expresses it in a way to me that's very winsome and doesn't put anybody outside the circle. and he's just kind of dialed into that right level. And we were talking about on our fly fishing trip, kind of our philosophy of that, because I share a similar philosophy, but I think he does it better.

1:02:43But I love that. You know, he's bold without making you feel threatened or in your face. Well, and I love how reliant he is on God for wisdom and how much he partners with God in his work as a leader. You know, it's like he's really walking hand in hand and also, you know, on his face praying. Because, you know, I think as leaders, whether you're leading a whole company or one other person or your peers, it's a weighty thing to have influence over people. It's a weighty thing to have the responsibility of decision-making, especially in today's world that's increasingly complex and the stakes continue to be higher.

1:03:22And so there's something about that to me that is really inspiring and instructional to not try to do it on my own. Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us for this episode. If you could do us a favor and go rate the podcast, hopefully five stars. And if you could also write a review, I know that's asking maybe a lot, but it only has to be like 50 words, maybe even 25 words. And I know it'll take a couple of minutes, but it will so help us in spreading what we consider to be a movement, a burgeoning movement of people who are committed to winning at work and succeeding at life. People are talking about it everywhere.

1:03:59And we love that because we think that people do best at work and at life when those things are intention and when they're integrated one with the other. So again, thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.