ELIZABETH OLDFIELD: Becoming Steady, Connected, and Fully Alive

27:39Yeah. And my concern is, and I think part of the reason that we've kind of shifted gears with the podcast and with some of our work is that we want to slow down the conversation a little bit and just take a minute to remember what does it mean to be a human? What is really at stake here and what might be lost and what needs to be protected, what's okay. And those aren't easy questions to answer or fast questions to answer. And we're certainly not anti-technology or anti-innovation. We love that. It's just that we also know, as you say, that humans have a tremendous propensity to mess things up, use a different word, you know, mess things up, right?

28:23And sometimes we don't realize we've messed things up until much further down the road when it's too late. and you're sort of just in clean up mode. Like I do a lot of work in just kind of mainstream secular social change spaces and I'm seeing a huge uptick in interest in religion specifically. Spiritual practice is more generally in religion. It feels like the US is in a slightly different place but in the UK and Europe, it felt like we hit bottom where there was a general social dismissal that there could be anything useful here. And now people who 10 years ago would have been massive Richard Dawkins fans are going, I don't know if we can do this without some scaffolding.

28:59Like what you've just said, basically our default mode settings, psychologists sometimes talk about it, is just responsive to stimuli, right? We're really simple, dopamine, pleasure, comfort, status, whatever it is. And it is often only in rigorous spiritual pathways, which have tended to be collective. And at the point they are collective, you could maybe call them religions, that has developed over centuries tools for helping us drop down a level to the deeper needs. to the real pathways to flourishing, to the choices that actually serve us and keep us fully alive and fully human. And so that I'm really interested in at the moment, the space that's opened up to talk well and hospitably and humbly, because the worst thing about Christians in public, we're arrogant and preachy and think we have all the answers.

29:46But to say, actually, to my friend Casper to Kyle, cause them spiritual technologies. sometimes to counter some of these technologies that are deforming us we need to go back to the spiritual technologies which have always been known about and which can form us ritual and attention and communal practices and giving and scaffolding for our souls because without that we are just being meat puppets for the machine is what I think on my worst days wow that's so vivid let's kind of shift gears and make this really practical for people because I know people listening are going yeah that just feels really true and I maybe didn't have words for it until now that there's some words now to wrap around this feeling or kind of disquiet that I've been experiencing what do we do with that you were talking about busyness and how you know we don't have time to know our neighbors and sometimes even our family.

30:46But what are the spiritual practices? Maybe if you could even start there, how can we make space to do anything other than what we're doing? Because life seems like it's this never ending torrent of activity and distraction. So Ryan Williams talks about the fact that structuring time and thereby structuring attention is the hidden genius of religions. Everyone knows they give, or they can give, ethical guidance and existential comfort. But actually, if you look at most religions, what they do is they say, this is how you structure your time. And that is how you take some agency back over who you will become.

31:20I joked about being in a micro monastery, but our community is very influenced by the Benedictine tradition. St. Benedict was dealing with a ragtag, unruly group of humans who also had a high propensity to mess things up. And he said, how are we going to live together? How are we going to navigate our time? How are we going to keep focusing our attention on the thing that we want to be formed by, which in their case, my case is Jesus, but might be something different. And that tradition gives you something called a rule of life. And so we have a rule of life and it means not starting with, I'm so busy, where are the tiny slices of time where I can tend to my soul, but going, who do I want to be when I die?

31:57What are therefore my key values? What do I actually care about? And in our case, it's prayer, hospitality, celebration, creativity. Okay. So how are we going to structure our week so that there's time for those is put in first. So we have a practice of Sabbath where we switch off our devices and we spend a day being deliberately unproductive. And I tell you what, it's really hard. And when we do it, it's really good. And everything, the rest of the week gets easier. We have prior practices. We have open table cooking practices where we invite people and we get to know our neighborhood. And then we go, right, what time is left for work?

32:31And then work is going to have to go in those slots, which is really hard if you're an ambitious, successful person. I actually have found I am more professionally fruitful having done it that way round, which is interesting because it turns out it's not the more time you spend. It's how, as you've been saying for years, what you're doing in that time, what you're prioritizing. But that concept of a rule of life as a way of shaping your week and your time, in some ways it's not that dissimilar from just having a calendar, but the monastic wisdom is start with who do you want to be becoming? What are your deep values?

33:04Put aside time for those. Otherwise they're honestly, frankly, theoretical and then fit everything else around it and stick to it. That's the hard thing. Don't get seduced by some sexy new technique in three weeks time. This is like years. That's how long it takes to for formation to really work. You know, just insight for people that listen to this show and also have read our books is we talk about this concept of the ideal week. And I think for most people, and what you've given us is a distinction that I haven't thought of before. We talk about front stage time, you know, when you're in front of people delivering stuff.

33:41And there's your backstage time when you're preparing for the front stage, then there's off stage. But what I hear you saying, and what is beautiful is start with the off stage time and then let everything else fit in. Because if you don't put the big rocks in first, there won't be room for them, for sure. That is really interesting. It's basically your soul is the thing I believe that lasts. So that's the most important bit. And David Brooks is really great on this. He talks about eulogy virtues versus resume virtues. In resume virtues, we can get all manner of help, time, podcast, books, to help us become more effective and productive and successful and high status.

34:18The eulogy virtues, how do you build an actual character? There is so much less scaffolding for. There is so much less support for. and therefore requires much higher levels of intentionality. And it's actually really hard and lonely to do it on your own, which is why there's a genius in being in a congregation or being in a community or perhaps a fellowship group or a woman's group or a men's group or anything where you can give yourself permission with other people to go, I actually want to take my life seriously. I want to take who I'm becoming seriously. What practices and postures do we need that we can slightly hold each other to accountable on so we can be growing together?

34:54because otherwise our time is going to pass on to-do lists, 75 % of which do not matter and we will never remember. I can't help but think there are people listening who have been through, I myself have, though I'm still going to church, but have been burned in the context of faith. They have had some traumatic experience. They have had an experience in a church that feels indelibly armed and, you know, they can't imagine ever going back. And I think we've seen at least in the U.S., but I know it sounds like the U.K. is a little further ahead in kind of the rebound, but people exiting the church in mass and in some ways, interestingly, are coming back, but into more liturgical traditions, which I think makes sense based on what you're saying, because there's that scaffolding that's a part of it.

35:43How do you find a community, a spiritual community to join and be a part of without having a repeat of whatever your own traumatic history has been I know I found that very hard personally I think I have found that place but it's been long and slow and hard one how do you get yourself to risk again and how do you find a safe place yeah thanks for sharing that Megan that's really vulnerable and honest and I really value that. In some ways, it all comes down to this. Like my vision of a human is interconnected, interdependent, and we live in a world that's constantly fracturing those ties. And I think this is a very orthodox biblical understanding.

36:25So Luther and Augustine talk about their definition of, one of the definitions of sin is humanity turned in on itself, where we pull back from God and from other people into ourselves because we resist our interdependence. and the trouble is is that sometimes that pulling back is self-protective right and healthy and necessary when you've been in a community that is not functional not healthy not helping you become more fully human or more fully alive then naturally that is going to feel risky to go towards again and for some people they're just the idea that it could be a church or indeed another kind of religious congregation is just too much to contemplate right now and I totally understand that.

37:05My observation is that outside of religious congregations, there is very little alternative. And I have friends who've tried to build this, right? I was friends with the guys who set up the Sunday Assembly, which was a kind of non-religious church movement in the UK. I have friends who were trying to do something called the Nearness, which again was trying to create non-religious spiritual community for people. And some of those are beautiful and flourish for a while, but they're difficult to scale and they're difficult to sustain over time. My best guess is that, and it takes so much courage because you have to be the really earnest person, right?

37:37I said in a fleeting way, you know, find a group, get a men's group, get a women's group as if that's easy. It's not easy. If you're not in a point where you can join existing scaffolding, you really have to be brave enough to be vulnerable because you keep getting rejected often. But my sense is the hunger for depth and the hunger for connection is so widespread now that if you're brave enough to keep putting out those feelers, making those bids, inviting people for dinner, saying, could we have a book group and maybe read some spiritual books, maybe from different traditions, like whatever people are comfortable with and keep going and keep modeling both vulnerability and commitment.

38:14So this is the really key thing. The reason I am still in church, despite church, is very strong scaffolding and it will be happening even without me. And it models to me that even when I don't want to, it's probably still going to be good for me to show up. And that's so counter to our individualistic culture. So where I've seen it working, it's often someone who's been prepared to go against that culture and say, at the beginning, here are some norms. How about we all covenants take this seriously? How about we block this out of our diary and don't flake unless we're really ill or these are the conditions on which it's all right to flake and otherwise it's actually not okay.

38:53Like we are going to commit to this together. maybe we'll just do a term and see how we get on but it's really difficult and it's really hard work which is why I think for most people looking for a congregation if they can bear it that feels healthy is what is still worth doing I think that's what works about the recovery community is yes I'm so jealous of the recovery community sometimes yeah it's like very high commitment and very high vulnerability and I think sometimes we talk about vulnerability in our culture like as a good thing. Like we want authenticity, we want vulnerability, but we're also because of our hyper individualism, we're really down on commitment.

39:33We don't want to commit. We don't want to commit unless we know we're going to like it long-term. And it's going to serve our needs right now, right? Our kind of top level needs, not our deep level needs. And I think commitment and intimacy and vulnerability, they have to go together or it just doesn't work. It is unsafe. Yeah. My perspective, and I've heard what both of you have said, and I agree with everything you've said. I think sometimes the church gets held up to a much higher standard than any other group. Because the truth is, people get hurt in all kinds of groups. You know, whether it's a trade association or a neighborhood watch program, just the nature of people is that they get political and they hurt each other.

40:15And the thing that is optimistic to me about the church, though, is at least we have a tradition of grace and forgiveness. But that has to be exercised. And some of the most unforgiving spaces I've been in, sadly, are churches. And at the same time, some of the most grace-filled spaces I've been in are in churches. And I don't know if you have this in the UK, but I'm a big fan of this TV series, The Chosen. Part of what I love about it, first of all, it shows the humanity of Jesus, but it shows the disciples really struggling with unforgiveness toward each other and then reconciling. And it's just beautiful to watch it happen.

40:55And it's a good reminder for people like me that this should be the norm. It's a really tender thing. And at the end of my chapter on Pride, which is all about community, I basically have a love song to the church in all of its bruised, broken, spiky edged self, because I think it's only when you've been outside of it for a while, or you have good friends who are so hungry for community and can't find it, that you realize that, and some are actively harmful and dysfunctional, I don't want to write that off, but most are just deeply human, right, and loving, and earnest, and sort of bodging along, and are places where people who would never otherwise meet are learning to love each other, are learning to walk each other home, and there is something extraordinary about that.

41:37So yes, I think we can both acknowledge institutional failure, which impacts all institutions, and it's maybe more disappointing in the church because we kind of see what it could be and go, to whom else shall I go, frankly?

41:59I want to talk about polarization and peacemaking. This shows up in the church, too, right? And it shows up in every group, you know, polarization. But how can we, through practice, be peacemakers and not just respond sort of impulsively to the way everybody else is responding? So this was one of the great eye-opening moments, realizing how central this is to my faith and how little I'd heard about it. I started reading the Gospels through that. I was working in kind of mainstream anti-polarization and peace building work, getting really interested in the dynamics that divide us and how easy it is to just stick to people like me.

42:39Scientists call it homophily. I call it people like me syndrome. How actually we find it stressful and threatening to be with people who are not like ourselves. And that's not just terrible people. That's all of us. These dynamics of tribalism that if we're not careful, drive us further and further apart. Jesus in the gospels is repeatedly upending. He is so disruptive of them. He's just messing up all of these dynamics by repeatedly going to the most outsider person in any situation, the person everyone else is tense, that they're even there, the person everyone else would never be seen with.

43:09He's like beeline, that person. And the bit of my tradition that has this incredibly radical difficult to apply command, which is not just love your neighbors, which is hard enough, love your enemies. This is a very central teaching of my faith. You would not always know it from the church. You would not always know it from looking at me, frankly, but it is a cornerstone. And it's been, you know, it's given inspiration to nonviolent protests and reconciliation movements, some of whom were grounded in Christianity, many of whom weren't all over the world, all over the centuries. And so I have come to believe that the best thing I can be doing in this moment to grow up my soul is to put my roots down deep into this teaching to really acknowledge.

43:54And I think it's sometimes helpful to just call it sin, to acknowledge my sin, which is that I get really contemptuous of people not like me. I like to roll my eyes at people I disagree with. I like to think I'm better and much more comfortable with anyone who reminds me of myself. If you start spotting that pattern in you, it's terrifying. Like if you notice who you feel warm towards, like seriously, Megan came on the screen. I was like, oh, glasses and lipstick. We can be friends. And this shows up in sociological study salespeople are more likely to make a sale on the doorstep if they share a physical characteristic in common with the person that they're selling to.

44:28We are all scanning the world for fragments of our own reflection. And many religious teachings, I think, and Christianity very explicitly says, take care with that because you are called to love each other, your neighbors and your enemies. And so it is a series of practicing, recognizing what's happening and then choosing to act differently. It's really simple, actually, and quite a lot of fun. It's not easy, but it really opens your horizons and you end up with a bunch of very wildly different friends. Thank you for that. That is fantastic. What do you want people to take from this book Fully Alive?

45:08What do you most hope that they'll walk away with and do with what they've experienced in this book? I do hope they'll feel a bit steadier. They'll feel some relief. It's hard to talk about this stuff, right? When we feel existentially very unsettled, we kind of don't want to unsettle everyone else and we don't want to be negative or moaning or whining or making it all about us. And being really honest about how overwhelming the world feels somehow. It's healing. I find it healing. But then going, okay, what can we do? Like what is in our hands? What do we have agency over? Probably my own soul.

45:46What am I doing in my actual neighborhood? What decisions can I make that are towards loving my neighbor, that are towards becoming the kind of person the world needs now? Kind of lowers that overwhelming globalizing sense of all the world's problems down to, okay, what can I do? And people have been doing these things for centuries, and maybe I can find some other people who are doing them, and then I feel less alone. I love that. Well done. Now we're going to shift gears to our questions that we ask all of our guests. And like we were talking about kind of at the beginning, our mission at Full Focus is to help people get the double win, which means actually our mission is to help make it nearly impossible for people not to get the double win, which is winning at work and succeeding at life.

46:30And so in your experience, what is the biggest obstacle that you're currently facing in winning at work and succeeding at life? so I think this is possibly going to sound incredibly smug and arrogant but I feel like I have fewer obstacles than I have in other seasons of my life and part of that's living in community that I have a lot of support and accountability to both be living my values and to be courageously pursuing my vocation so there's all kinds of my own skills and the amount of time and trying to be a good parent, like practical things that everyone is struggling with. But the big stuff, your questions may be really grateful that there aren't, doesn't feel like there aren't insurmountable barriers.

47:15I love that. It's sort of like people say sometimes, you know, what's the one solution that eliminates the need for a thousand other solutions or I'm butchering that, but you know, that, that kind of idea. And I feel like what I'm taking away apart from this conversation is community is the one thing that solves a thousand and other problems. It creates other problems, but they're good problems. It's good friction, not bad friction. So yes. The second question we have is how do you personally know when you're getting the double win? Like what are the, what's the evidence? Everything comes back to relationship for me.

47:47So when my immediate family, my husband and my kids, when we feel like we actually know what's going on with each other, when we're having fun together, when we're just alongside each other rather than living parallel lives. Yeah. Fun together is really big collective laughter is probably the easiest to spot symptom where that bit of my life is flourishing because we're all flourishing together and when I've done a piece of work that again feels like it's really connected with someone where there is a moment of shared humanity and we've both gone and whether that's through a podcast and I know about it from an email or someone's read the book or sent me an email but when I've done some work that is humanizing that really feels like yeah that was a good day's work that i'm grateful for very good i love that okay last question and i feel like you are the queen of this so i can't wait to hear what you say but what is one ritual or routine that helps you do what you do and i think in this case i would say what you do is human flourishing so what is one ritual or routine chief of human flourishing yeah yeah i am i i'm not gonna claim that um i think sabbath that's this is a long slow coming to the conclusion that like a full 24 hours off devices in which we prioritize rest and celebration makes everything else easier and there's lots of others and sacred reading and singing and being a part of the congregation and journaling have lots and lots of other rituals but to take a seventh of the week and actively try and resist work and instead turn towards relationships and rest.

49:24Puts everything else into its right size. So it's become a bit of a cornerstone. So what would you do on that day? I just want to know very practically, like sketch the day out for me. There's a fair amount of panicking that I've forgotten to tell people that I'm turning my phone off. So that's the annoying thing about Sabbath. You have to be very, you have to look ahead. Otherwise there is very good reason to turn your phone back on. So I have to do a lot of like, I'm turning my phone off. Where are we meeting? If we're seeing people outside the home, are we going to a thing where the tickets are on, have to be on our phone?

49:52There's just like trying to work out how to reduce the logistical nightmare, which is ridiculous that it's as high as it is. And then Friday night, we will have family dinner or house dinner. We will light a candle. And I was chatting to a rabbi friend about this the other day. It was, it's cultural appropriation. He was like, it's the good kind, you know, and we say a prayer and then we try and, play a game together after dinner. And then the next day, we just try and do things that are joyful. You know, go to the park or do some art together or we'll see some friends. You know, in lots of ways, it looks like everyone else's weekend, but we are trying to do it in ways that are very boundaried around technology and which are attempting to slow down.

50:34I really do feel like this slowing down word has been a theme in this conversation and a theme for my life because hurrying and distraction are not how we flourish. And we're constantly being encouraged to do those things. So we need to provide, provide to kind of, we're never going to get equal pressure, but at least some counter pressure towards slowness and steadiness and presence. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's really helpful to just kind of imagine what does it really look like? Elizabeth, thank you so much for being a guest with us today. We really appreciate it. I have loved this conversation.

51:07Good. And I want to encourage people, get the book. Yes, get the book, get the book, get the book. And you can listen to Elizabeth's lovely voice reading it to you, which is, I mean, we don't always get to say that. You know, sometimes it's not even the author reading the book. But in this case, you get Elizabeth herself reading it, which is pretty fantastic. Thank you so much. Thanks for being here.

51:36well that was a fun conversation well all i can say is i just wish elizabeth lived here because i think we would be best friends and i'm sad that she lives all the way in london but that gives you reason to go visit london yeah which i love london so perfect done i'm there the big idea i walked away from was the critical importance of community. And it seems to me like it's one of those terms that's very often mentioned. We have the full focus community. We have all these online communities. But it's like the more we talk about it, the less there is of it. Because the kind of community that she's talking about that I think is so different and really resonates with me is physical proximity to other people.

52:20And there's something that you can't create. I mean, it's better than nothing, I suppose. But a virtual community, especially a virtual community that's just text only, there's places for it, but it's not going to replicate what happens when you live with some level of intimacy with other humans. I agree with that. And I think this is a real challenge. Many years ago when I was in college, I did a lot of research about urban design and city planning and just how that has changed over time. Like we live near a historic town that was planned with mixed use zoning and things like that. Right. So like houses or near businesses and it's walkable and all of that.

53:03But that's not with the advent of the car. that all changed. And most of us do not live in neighborhoods or near the other parts of our life, whether it's the grocery store or church or our kids' school or office. Those things are usually not in close proximity to where we live. And so we spend a lot of our time in the car. And I think there's some real obstacles to that and some real consequences as Elizabeth shares to our own soul in our human flourishing and our well-being because we don't have community because it just, it doesn't come easily anymore. You know, it's funny because I think I've tended to gravitate toward this without having the clarity of what I was seeking.

53:44But for example, you know, I'm three blocks from my office, you know, I have an office behind my home and then the office where everybody else is, is three blocks away. You know, I can walk to great restaurants two to three blocks away. You know, I have all of my grandkids live within five minutes of me. And so that's a pretty awesome thing. And I've often said if my church would just move where I live, I could walk to everything. I would have no need for a car. But there has been something profoundly lost through technology. And anybody who knows me knows I'm a technologist. I love technology.

54:24But I also realize that it hasn't come without cost. And I think those costs sometimes are slower to be realized. They're costs to our soul, they're costs to our heart, they're costs to our ability to really flourish. And I love that Elizabeth, in telling her own story, really frames up for us what we've lost, but also how to get it back. And I think that we are very wary on this show of talking explicitly about faith, not because we're ashamed of our faith or anything like that, but because oftentimes it gets done so badly that it's off-putting to people, that it just is a poor representation of what the gospel really has to offer.

55:07And I think she did such a great job of laying out with full transparency of all the pitfalls and all the things that have gone wrong, why faith is an anchor in this conversation of human flourishing and kind of unavoidable in a way that we are made for that and that faith communities offer something in terms of the ability to kind of balance the scales with the con side being turbulence and instability, but steadying really comes in these ancient practices and in kind of the work of faith like day in and day out. And I love that because to me, it just feels so practical and kind of like hearty and trustworthy.

55:52I don't know how else to describe it, but that's part of what I took away was the old things are the things that we can trust, even if we've had bad experiences with them, that there's something there. There's some wisdom. There's, as she said several times, I thought it was beautiful. There's medicine there. And I think that's what we're all looking for is we're looking for that medicine, especially right now is things that feels like, you know, the center will not hold. And, and I think the center that does hold is our faith and is in the daily practices, the sort of ordinariness of life, anchoring ourselves to that.

56:24You talk about the ordinariness, hard to say, of life. I thought her thing about planning your non-work time was a key practice and starting there. Now, I've advocated for balancing, for sure, You know, try to do your very best to put that in your ideal week. But here, I think the insight that I got, and it was a little bit of a revelation, was start with the free time. So what would you do differently? Like, how would you think about your ideal week differently if you were kind of doing that, like, flip of the big rocks weren't your most important professional contributions, but your big rocks were kind of your most important soul care or connection?

57:10I don't know how we would say that, but how would your schedule look different? I don't know that it would look different, but I think that I would approach it from a different framework. You know, my work's very important, and it's not just a way for me to, you know, support the rest of my life. You know, I think there's a real calling and a real sense of purpose in what I do, and I know you feel the same way. So I don't want to diminish that, but I do think that observing Sabbath in the way that she was talking about is at the core of this. And it's interesting to me, and not to wax too theological, but Sunday for Christians is the first day of the week.

57:51And it begins with rest. And I think too often, and if you're not religious or a faith-based person, listen to me anyway, I think that a lot of times people think that rest is the reward for hard work. And as a result of that, they never actually get to it. And I think the insight here is rest is the prerequisite. And so by unplugging, powering down, focusing on rejuvenating kinds of activities, like she was talking about, that prepares you for making your best contribution without burnout. I think I've drifted into this idea, and literally on my calendar, I have the week start on Monday. and I think I need to change that just for my own sense of how time works and the importance.

58:41It's kind of like an orienting practice. My default on time that I have off is that I want to spend as much time by myself at home without other people as possible. Now in my life, I have five kids, three of them are still at home. That doesn't mean I'm alone, you know, usually, but it does mean that I'm not doing things with other people outside of my nuclear family very often. And I don't think that's what she means by Sabbath. And I don't think that's, I think the idea is the restoration that is Sabbath comes from being in community and community is more than your nuclear family. That's the whole point.

59:21So that was really challenging to me to think about. The other thing I was thinking, if I were going to answer my own question about how my schedule would change. I've always thought it was interesting that Catholics, for example, tend to observe the practice of going to mass every day. And you and I are not Catholic, so that's not part of our practice. But I often will go to an Anglican or Episcopal Eucharist service on a Wednesday. And I would love to start every day with that. You know, I think that would be a really beautiful, orienting way to remember what really matters, to be anchored to truth and goodness and wholeness in the truest sense every day.

1:00:01And I think that feels, I've always wondered, like, people who are Catholic, like, how do they fit that in? You know, because that seems like a pretty big commitment every day. But also, how cool to do that. I don't know if you remember this, but when we had Arthur Brooks on, who is Roman Catholic, he and his wife go to Mass every day. Yeah. Kyle, who works for us at the house here, he and his wife go to Mass every day. Yeah. And I think it's a steadying kind of thing. And this is why I think, darn that automobile, because proximity really creates friction for this. Because it's not like I'm going to go to a one-hour Eucharistic service and then come home, but it's a 20-minute drive there and it's a 20-minute drive back.

1:00:41You know, I don't want to be making excuses, but it's just, it's challenging. Well, it's something to really think about, like how to incorporate those spiritual practices and spiritual disciplines into life. yeah I don't know that's one of the things I'm really taking away is just thinking about that so obviously guys if you stayed with us this long you need to get this book I mean we get nothing out of promoting a book other than just knowing what it's meant to us but I I think it's going to be so meaningful to you so I really hope you will buy the book we have all the information in the show notes I think it will be helpful for you in this season of being a human it's a weird time to be a human.

1:01:18Yes, it is. And on that, we'll end. Thanks for joining us, everybody. Yeah, thanks for hanging out with us. We'll see you next week. Bye-bye.