JON GORDON: The Real-World Power of Positive Leadership

25:01And so I've worked with a lot of different coaches that have turned around programs. Dabo Sweeney at Clemson, I've worked with the last 13 years. Sark at University of Texas, when he got the job, I got a chance to meet with him. So I've worked with a lot of great leaders and cultures. But then I've worked with some teams that you go in there and you work with them and they don't turn around and they don't have success. Because I always say, I'm not the reason for the success. I also spoke to the Cleveland Browns. Everyone usually laughs at that. And the key here is the leader and it's the culture.

25:30And you give them the tools and the framework, but they've got to implement it. And it begins with the leader saying, okay, this is what our culture is going to be about. This is what we are going to stand for. And we identify our core values, which you've done a million times with organizations, Michael. You help them identify their core values, what the mission is, what our vision is, and we get very clear on that. What do we stand for? Now it's about, do you all stand for this? Are you going to stand for this? Now you have to find out who's going to be on your bus. You now have to get buy-in.

26:03And this is where some people are going to get on and some people won't. Now, while you're creating those visions and values, you're also talking to the team. You're developing the relationships. More one-on-one communication during that time. One-on-one connection, each person. How can you lead someone if you don't know them? How can you motivate someone if you don't know what motivates them? You got to make sure you're communicating to know where they are. Then it's collective communication and collective connection. I've got to foster a connection amongst the team. So I'm using my book, The Power Up Positive Team in that example, the principles and practices that make great teams great.

26:42So we're going in, we're talking about culture, we're finding our values, we're talking about that. Then we're identifying who's going to be on the bus, who isn't. We're building the relationships. Those who are on it now are making a commitment to that. And then it's about making sure that we actually live those principles. There's integrity. Also, we have to make sure that we are reinforcing them through stories and examples. And we're not wavering. We've got to make sure we don't waver. A great book is Alan Mulally called American Icon when he turned around Ford and they were losing$13 to$14 billion.

27:16dollars and how he did that. He defined his leadership style as positive leadership. And so when I wrote The Power of Positive Leadership, a lot of it was based on a lot of the ways he led. But that's how I work with a team and organization. I go in there, energy bus, use it for your culture. Positive leadership, let's get the leaders with the right frame of mind, with the right practices. Power of a positive team, let's get the team now working together and going through these principles and practices that will make the team stronger, more united, and connected. And then you start to see the culture turn around.

27:49But you got to outlaw. You got to outlaw negativity in terms of no gossip. You got to implement the no complaining rule, which is a great rule. You're not allowed to complain unless you come with a solution. So no complaining unless you come with a solution. Doug Conant, when he turned around Campbell's Soup, literally said, if you're not an optimist and you don't believe in our vision and mission, then we're going to have to let you go. They let go of a bunch of pessimists. He replaced them with optimists, and that's how he turned around Campbell's Soup. So you literally have to find out who's going to be with you or not.

28:19But you have to be the leader also that stands by those principles, and you have to make sure you're leading the right way as well. And I've seen so many turnarounds by doing that kind of formula. I've noticed that some negative people, you just can't turn around. It's like they're addicted to their negativity because it puts them in the center of a drama and gives them a sense of significance. and they don't realize they're doing it, but it's hard for them to let go of that because all of a sudden they wouldn't have the same, they wouldn't get the same attention that they would as when they're negative.

28:52Our good friend, our good mutual friend, Donald Miller would say that everyone is telling themselves a story. Yeah. And so they are telling themselves a story. They are living a story. I always say, what story are you living? Is it a drama? Is it a horror story? Or is it an inspirational tale? And so we got to meet that person and help them tell a better story, knowing they're telling themselves a drama every single day. But you're right. They've been telling themselves a negative story for so long. And I truly believe it's because they are tuned into the negative thoughts, the negative programming, the negative beliefs.

29:29Remember this, you're not the thoughts you think, you're the thoughts you believe? Negative thoughts are going to come in all the time. What thoughts are you believing and what stories are you choosing to believe about yourself? I've had stories where I've been rejected, where my biological father left when I was a year old, not the New York City police officer who raised me. That was my stepfather who raised me. My biological father left when I was a year old. So what story am I listening to? And then when it becomes a pattern, it's hard to shift. Our other good friend, John Acuff, would say that there's a soundtrack you're playing.

30:01You turn on that radio dial when you get into your car My wife was being really negative for a while and she was always the positive one But she was being really negative and I said, honey It's like you're actually getting into your car And you're playing the same song all the time that it's automatically tuned into that station We gotta tune the dial and start tuning into a more positive station But I don't think it's because people want to be that way I don't think people really want to be that way and I don't think they're addicted to the negativity I just think that they don't even know another way and they haven't been shown a different perspective and mindset on how to be another way.

30:40Yeah, I was just thinking back to some of the things you were saying about leadership. And I'm curious to know, what are the biggest mistakes that you've seen leaders make when they encounter negativity on their teams? Because I imagine it's not just as simple as now we're positive, the end. You know, that there's a lot of ways you can go off track. And I think, you know, our audience are people, whether they're leading teams or, you know, they're just kind of in peer leadership, whatever it is, they're all in some kind of leadership, regardless of their context. So how can we use that? How do we not make those mistakes and what are they?

31:18Well, the biggest mistakes that leaders make is first and foremost is they don't create a culture that is infused with positivity. So you've got to actually talk about this at the cultural level. You have to say in your first meetings with your team, hey, I've really decided or we've decided that we really want to be a more positive team and organization. We realize the cost of negativity, how it sabotages us. I really would love your help in really trying to bring forth more optimism and belief and positivity in what we're doing and what we're creating. It really is the competitive advantage.

31:52And it's so funny that people think positivity is like Pollyanna positive, where they roll their eyes when they hear it. But when you really present it from a business standpoint, which is what I have worked so hard to do and what our whole business evolves around, work with organizations. People say, oh, you're about positivity and energy. No, we're really about fixing problems and finding solutions. And we do a lot of consulting and a lot of issues. But it all will boil down to, in many ways, those two frequencies that we have to get people thinking about. So at the cultural level, you have to make sure you address it there.

32:21I think that's a big part of the mistake that leaders don't do. They just, hey, we're going to be positive, but they don't really work at it on the cultural standpoint. The other part is we found that leaders will read the energy bus and they'll say, you're either on my bus or off my bus. So get on it. And that's it. It's like Survivor. Yeah, they throw the book out and I get emails all the time. Hey, my boss gave me your book to read and I hate my boss and they're the biggest energy vampire of all. Wow. I get that a lot. They hate their boss. Their boss is an energy vampire, but they're using my book to try to get everyone.

32:51line. So then they wind up hating me. The key is, it's almost like if you're a follower of Jesus, right? And you don't act like Jesus, then you give Jesus a bad name, right? And so I think there are people out there who are giving positivity a bad name or the energy bus in that way because they don't act like they should. So the key is, don't say you're either on my bus or off my bus. What you've got to do as a leader, first and foremost, is build the relationship with that person and ask them to get on and invite them on the bus as you're building a relationship and just say why you need them, why you value them, why you appreciate them.

33:30So build the relationship with each person on your team and then ask them to get on. And that's really a key part. Again, the mistake is that people just shout it out. You're either on my bus and they get all negative. And the other mistake that they make is I said earlier, They don't address the negativity that exists. So it winds up eventually sabotaging the team. Like when you see it, you got to address it. Amy Kelly and I just wrote a book called Difficult Conversations Don't Have to Be Difficult. And that's one of the biggest mistakes is they don't have difficult conversations. So you never bring the issues to the light.

34:02You stay at surface level. And as you're in surface level, you never get real commitment as a team because everyone's existing in like, but not love. There's, we're on the team, but we're not a team. And we're not on a mission as a team because there's no commitment. So my next book I'm writing is actually about commitments of a team and how going through the fire together is how you really build a stronger team. So difficult conversations is essential that you have to have in order to grow as a team. You know, it seems like so much of this comes back to the leader, him or herself, modeling the behavior that they want to see in the team.

34:42So in other words, you're going to replicate yourself. And if you're a negative person, you can read all the books you want on positivity. But if you're not being positive, you're not going to replicate positivity. You know, you're going to replicate who you are. Like makes like. And so to the issue where people are sending you an email, like, I hate my boss, biggest energy vampire I know. Well, that guy's never going to be successful in spreading positivity because he hasn't address the most important person on the bus, which is himself. That's so good. And self-leadership, as you know, it starts there.

35:17You have to lead by example. You have to know your own personal challenges. What is it like to be led by you? I don't think a lot of leaders have self-awareness of the kind of leadership and the kind of energy that they're sharing. And when that leader is reading a book, just because you read the book, as you said, doesn't mean you're actually living it and living those principles. Your culture is always going to be the essence of who you are. As you're the leader, your essence is going to move forth and be put forth to your team. So you may not even have written rules or principles or values written out, but every day how you're showing up and the essence you're sharing, that's your real culture and that's going to permeate throughout your organization.

36:04Do you have an assessment in your organization where a leader can figure out whether they're being negative? Because I wonder if some of this is self-awareness. Like somebody thinks, well, I'm a positive person, but the people around them perceive them as being negative. Is there any kind of self-assessment tool for that? We have a positive leadership assessment and it tells you some of your issues are. It's not a robust assessment, very surface level, but it does identify where you are as a positive leader and what your score is and where you need to improve. So that's helpful. But I'm actually coming up with another assessment that identifies the kind of leader you are and how certain aspects of positive leadership will help you in those areas of your leadership.

36:50One of the things that was so interesting that you said was about difficult conversations, because I think it would be an easy misconception for people to have that being a positive leader means you're nice. They think of what a negative leader would be, that they're maybe abusive, that they're yelling at people, that they always pick out their faults and they're critical. And I think this happens a lot in our culture where we equate kindness or positivity or some of these things that seem kind of warm and fuzzy as being nice. And what I hear you saying is that telling the truth and being candid in your conversations is critically important to creating this kind of culture.

37:34So can you talk a little bit about that? Because it's a little counterintuitive. Difficult conversations is such a fun and good quick read because it's about Ruth who's struggling in her leadership, struggling with her team, and she has to get them on the bus. And they're having a lot of issues. They begin having difficult conversations at the advice of an advisor of Ruth's. And she's a former volleyball player. So she's trying to build teamwork. and you see this all the time where those conversations, if you don't have them, you can go south. But if you do have them and you don't do them the right way, the organization and the team could go south because you may have difficult conversations and people get emotionally charged.

38:16And so the key is one of our key principles of the STAR3 model, which is our difficult conversations model, STAR3, S-T-A-R, it's R3. S is small ego, big mission. T is tell the truth. You have to tell the truth, but we say tell it in love. The Seattle Seahawks have tell the truth Mondays. Every Monday they would get together. This is when Pete Carroll was the coach and they would get together and they would talk about who messed up, who needed to play better. They would show the tape, but no one took it personal because it was all about getting better. So they were telling the truth and they had a culture where everyone wanted to get better.

38:54What does that come down to? It comes down to love and accountability. So our big principle for positive leadership, besides optimism and belief, is love and accountability. I love you and I'm going to support you and encourage you, but I have to hold you accountable to the standards, to the culture, the principles, and the values. And if I don't hold you accountable, that means I don't love the rest of the team. I don't love our organization. And I actually don't love you because I'm letting you settle for anything but your best. So I'm going to hold you accountable. Positive leaders are demanding.

39:28They're just not demeaning. And I'm defining it because I know a lot of positive leaders and they're some of the most competitive people I know. I am a competitive person, very competitive. You can have a competitive spirit and be a very strong, positive leader. It's just the fact of It's a healthy ambition. It's healthy competition. It's healthy drive. Because I believe the best is yet to come because I'm positive. I'm going to take the actions necessary and help my team take the actions necessary to create the best outcome. And yes, while we're competing, man, I want to win. And it's good to want to win because the most successful people want to win.

40:06And then when you do win, you don't gloat. When you do win, you know that you're always striving to get better. John Madden always said that winning was a great deodorant. It covers up what stinks about your team, which I just love that quote. That's fantastic. Your company might be having a lot of success right now, but guess what? There's a lot of stuff that is thinking about your team and no one knows because you're having success. So it's a deodorant. And then all of a sudden the issues come. All of a sudden the gaps are revealed and then they turn into a canyon. And then you realize, oh, we had all these issues that we never dealt with.

40:40If you invest in the culture, invest in having difficult conversations along the way, you're going to uncover those issues long before they destroy your team from stinking so much.

40:56We have a tradition of asking all of our guests the same three questions about the double win, this idea of holistic success, of winning at work and succeeding at life. So for you, John, what's the biggest obstacle right now in you getting the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life? Well, first I just want to say, I love that you're calling it the double win because that is huge. In my book, you went in the locker room first that I wrote with Mike Smith, the former coach of the Falcons. He said one of the greatest lines ever. He said, if you fail at home, it doesn't matter how much success you have at work.

41:32He really felt like you're a failure if you don't succeed at home. And I really believe the same thing. I almost destroyed my family at the expense of going after my goals and dreams and success. And so often is driven out of a wound where we're trying to be successful to fill that hole we have in our soul. Absolutely. But as you fill it with love and your family and you find out what matters most, then you realize that your family's worth the fight and so is your work. You can be successful and fight in both places without the expense of another. So I just love that. And my biggest challenge was at the time, like so many, was the balance between the two and being so driven to be successful that there were times when my family took a backseat or my relationship took a backseat.

42:25And so it's really about making your family a priority. The year that my wife said, I need your help at home, stop traveling so much. I first responded and said, no, I'm now finally living my dream. This is everything I've worked towards. And my wife's like, no, I need your help. I'm like, honey, I'm impacting the world. She said, you need to impact your family. And I had to get off the road because she really needed my help. I said, fine, I'll come help. I was resentful at first. I wanted a different team because my team was really struggling and messed up. they were not doing well. I wasn't home much.

43:02By the end of the year, I realized I didn't need a different team. I needed to become a better leader. I needed to invest more at home. So that whole year, it was about my daughter who was 15. My son was 13, pouring into them, being there for them, serving my wife. Hardest year of my life, by the way. Hardest year ever, ever. My word was served that year. And I served like no other. At the end of the year, my wife said, okay, what's going to be your word next year, selfish? I said, no. I said, it's now who I am. It really molded me and shaped me. I got to tell you, after that experience, after that year, every book I wrote became a Wall Street Journal bestseller.

43:43Every one. Every book since that time, all the way back to, I believe, 2014 became a bestseller. So it was like once I won at home, I actually was better at winning out in work. And here's what I realized. When people are at work, so often they're guilty they're not at home. And then they're at home and they're feeling guilt that they're not doing work. So they have a double dose of guilt and a double dose of misery. And my greatest advice is that you're never going to find balance. It's about rhythm. When you are at work, engage at work and give everything you have at work. When you're at home, be present with your spouse, be present with your family and engage with them there.

44:26And you will be engaged in both places. And you might not have the same balance of time, but you'll be engaged. And my daughter, Michael, you have your daughter who works with you, right? You guys work together. Well, I have, my daughter's now working with me and my daughter's a speaker and she's 26. And I asked her, Jay, did I travel too much? And she said, dad, I don't remember you gone. I remember when you were home all the time. Wow, that's awesome. When I was home, I was engaged with her. I was practicing lacrosse with her. We would go away for the summer for all these club tournaments throughout Maryland and do that together.

45:01So we did have a lot of time together. And yet I still did about 100 events or more on the road a year, which takes you away for like 150 days. So I learned a lot of lessons with that in terms of you can do both. And what you're saying, the double win is essential. Now my biggest challenge is my kids are older. My wife's involved in the business. I would say my biggest challenge is just finding that time where we're not always having a business meeting because sometimes Thanksgiving turns into a business meeting. Right. And I think it's about, we've got to sometimes just put it away and say, let's be husband and wife.

45:34Yeah. Let's just be a family right now and have some fun. We face that too. Okay. Second question. How do you personally know when you're getting the double win? What are the indicators? You don't feel divided. You don't feel like you're separate or missing something. You feel like you have a high state of mind. You're feeling good about your work and what you're accomplishing. You feel good about your relationships. Most importantly, your relationships feel good about you because you can feel good about your relationships and they think it's a disaster. But both of you feel like you're in a good place.

46:12You're making time for what matters most. You're not feeling regretful. You're not living in regret. You're really feeling like you're winning at work and you're winning at home. There's a feeling that you're winning in both places. And yet at the same time, you're probably always going to feel like, what can I do better and how can I do this more in both places? So I call it positive discontent, but there's still ways that you're thinking about how can I improve in this area? Okay. Last question, John, what is one ritual or routine that you rely on to do what you do? I'd love to know your speaking ritual, like your pre-speaking ritual, because we didn't really talk much about speaking, but I'm sure you have one.

46:56I've been just praying more lately during the time leading up to the speech. Just a little more prayer and trust and surrender. There's this feeling that when I get on stage, there's a feeling of expectation now because you've been doing it longer. You have a name now, there's higher expectation. So you can feel this expectation like, oh, I better deliver. They're paying a lot more. They are expecting you to be better. And for that, I just have to focus and show up and just love the audience and love the message I'm sharing and love the impact I get to have. The more I focus on love, fear dissipates.

47:38So I really try to focus on love and not fear. People think like, oh, LeBron James or these other athletes, they're always confident. No, they struggle as well. And we all do. I think the more you have success, the more pressure there is because there's more expectation. But pressure is believing the lie that anything outside you can impact how you feel. So what I try to remind myself is to focus inside out the love I have and share that and focus on that. Part of what I love about that is I've noticed this with my own speaking too. The more I focus on myself, the more fear and lack of confidence I feel.

48:15Yes. The more I focus on the audience and what they need, the more free I am to give it. And so I try to get in that same mindset before I take the stage. It's all about them. It's not about me. Yeah. You nailed it. It's like the greatest advice you can give a speaker is what you just said, Michael, because so many speakers, when they get started, they're wondering what everyone thinks of them and what they're perceived as. And the key is give them a gift. Give them a gift and share something with them. Your purpose is to make a difference. Focus on that. Take it off yourself. I love that. You nailed it.

48:49Well, John, thank you so much for being with us for this episode. I knew it was going to be great. I was looking forward to it. and man, I wish we lived closer together. I know we'd be good buddies, but occasionally we hit each other on the road, but thanks again for being with us. Well, I need to come visit you in the Nashville area, which is where I love to visit. Please do. We'd love to have you. You're doing amazing work. You've been a pioneer, an example for me and so many in terms of how to build a great organization, great leadership. You've done it all. So I appreciate you showing us the way.

49:23Thanks, John. You're very kind. Thanks, John. Thanks, buddy.

49:36Okay, after that interview, I'm kind of energized. Yeah. Because I'm thinking about how energy is just a good way to describe the kind of culture that you want. I've never really framed it quite that way. But I think that's what you want. the kind of environment where people feed off each other's energy. And I've been at those kinds of environments where that's not the case. Or where it was negative. They fed off each other's negative energy. Definitely. And, you know, unfortunately, that's easier to spread. It's easier to destroy a good culture than it is to restore a bad culture to some level of goodness.

50:15Yeah. You know, the thing that I was the most surprised about listening to John was the idea that difficult conversations are an essential part of positive leadership. But you can see why that is, because I think if you don't have those difficult conversations, then sort of the resentment or the anger or the frustration goes underground. Right. And undermines the energy of the team. Well, and if you don't have accountability, which is, you know, definitely a difficult conversation, then what do you really have? You know, and I thought, wow, that's so interesting because I think it would be easy to think that a positive culture or a positive team or just being a positive person just means you're nice to everybody.

50:59Right. Like it's equivalent to being like a nice people pleaser and telling people what they want to hear and just like, you know, coming in and being their cheerleader all the time. But I think what he's really saying is be a coach. Like the difference between being a cheerleader and being a coach is very, very different. and one is charged with making people their best and the other is just like, you know, being a hype person. One of the distinctions he made that I've never heard before that is profound is he said, great leaders are demanding, but not demeaning. Yeah, I thought that was big too.

51:32And I think I could work on being a little bit more demanding. I don't think I'm ever demeaning. You can correct me if I'm wrong. But I think sometimes I tend to be too nice and not demanding. Are we about to have an intervention right now? We are. Things are about to change. I think that's right. I mean, I think it's a difficult balance to figure out how do you hold people accountable? How can you be demanding and have really high standards and also empower people to go after those standards, encourage them and do things that are constructive and not destructive. But I think that demanding, demeaning paradigm is a helpful way to think about it.

52:09I think some of the reasons why I don't feel the need to be demanding, maybe it's just fear, but is that I tend to hire people and surround myself with people that are very demanding of themselves. Right. And it's like, they're more demanding of themselves than I would be. So my attitude is if, if they're holding themselves accountable, if they're going to demand better performance of themselves, then I just want to support them. Right. I think that's good. You know, the, the thing that is important sometimes is to see the greatness in others that they can't see for themselves. And John talked about that.

52:43Yeah. that these great coaches of these teams that he works with often, you know, they're what they want for those guys is more than they want for themselves. They get a vision for something they hadn't even been open to, hadn't even crossed their mind. And I think that's great leadership, you know, and, and a kind of accountability that's even different. Well, if you haven't read the energy bus, I highly recommend it. And I also recommend that if you haven't taken the wheel in your own leadership or your own energy, that that's where it begins. You know, you are the driver of the bus. And I like that metaphor.

53:18I want to own it for myself and realize that I have more to do with affecting the energy of our company than anybody besides you, Megan. Yep. I think that's right. Well, guys, thanks so much for listening this week. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation. I want to ask you for a favor. Would you go and rate this podcast? And if you can, give it five stars. And the reason for that is not just because, you know, it makes us feel good, although that's always nice. It's because we want this message of the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life to get out to the people who don't know about it yet.

53:50We want people to have the kind of freedom, the kind of success that really comes from the double win. And they won't be able to do that unless they know about it. So help us out, leave a review, and we'll see right back here next week. See ya.

54:10Thank you.