SHASTA NELSON: The Power of Friendships

22:51We actually need to know what to do with the people we've already met. We actually need to learn how to go deeper. And most of us are lonely for more depth, not just for more social interactions. and so friend to misty is the book that i wrote where i looked at like what is it that builds healthy relationships and that's where i came up with the triangle um because there's three requirements that you'll see in every single social study as i mentioned earlier and those are positivity which is the base of the triangle and then the two arms up both sides of the triangle are consistency and vulnerability and michael you heard me do that in the context of a work relationship so i do that same triangle in my third book the business of friendship and that's more with a workplace in mind, because work is the number one place we make friends as adults, because it is the place we are most consistent.

23:36But yeah, those three things have to be present. And I can kind of define those a tiny bit. Consistency, I'll start there, because that was the one we were kind of picking up on earlier. And that is, it's kind of the hours logged. It's the shared experiences. It's the memories we make. It's the interaction. It's the pattern that we put together in that friendship. So we could all three get together and have an amazing time together, but we won't be friends unless we repeat that, right? So we will be, have had a friendly experience. We'll have had a good time, but if we want to develop a relationship, we would have to be repetitive and we would have to do that over and over and over and over and over again.

24:12So that one kind of makes sense for all of us. That's why friendship felt easy when we were in school. That's why we bond with people at work. That's why we, you know, end up feeling closer to some people, even if we didn't plan on it, it's because something in our lives helped us see them on a regular basis. And I'll just say before I move on to the other two, only two ways to build consistency is either join or participate in something that's consistent. So joining a book club, joining a mastermind, participating in some kind of an association, seeing the church that you go to as an option for building friendships.

24:46You have to either participate in something regularly where you're going to build relationships or your only other option. And I hate to say it, but it's schedule it yourself. It means you have to initiate, you have to schedule it, you have to make it happen. So the friendship will never happen if we don't get that consistency, that pattern off the ground. It's helpful. It's going to be missing. Can you go just a little bit deeper on that and speak to frequency? Yeah. Like if I'm serious about a friendship, like my wife and I just played golf with a couple that Literally, we've known for 40 years, but we hardly ever see them.

25:20We live in the same town. Every time we get together, we pick up where we left off. I mean, it's a great relationship, but there's not the consistency. But I'm wondering, because we were talking about how can we build this friendship, because we really would like to do that in this season. But what's the right frequency? Yeah, such a good question. Sounds like a little kid question. No, I love it. And I love that you said we could pick up right where we left off, because I hear that so many times. And what's so beautiful about those relationships is they do leave us feeling a sense of support.

25:50Like we know we could call them in the big things and we know we have history with them. But yeah, to your point, you're not getting the benefit of them on a daily basis or weekly basis. And so the consistency. So the research is showing that we will feel closest to the people that we talk with or interact with at least once a week. So some of us will do two or three times a week. Some of us, it'll be every other week. but kind of that peak time for, and this might only, this might only work for three to five of your relationships. You know, this isn't something. So when we go up the triangle, we'll start that at the bottom of the triangle, that the widest base, these are all the relationships in our lives.

26:25And it's only as we practice these three things over and over and over that we go up the triangle. So we go up the triangle as we increase that consistency, increase our vulnerability and increase the way we express that positivity to each other. So at the top of the triangle, we're not going to have a ton of people up there. Most of us, when we're lonely, it's because we don't have anyone up there or enough people up there. So for most of us, the answer, like I get reporters calling me all the time. We have a loneliness epidemic. How do people go make friends or where should they go meet people?

26:53And I'm often saying it's not a matter of us not meeting enough people. Like we've all met so many people. For most of us, it's a matter of how to practice consistency, vulnerability, and positivity with the people we have met and move them up the triangle. That's the hard part. The meeting people is, I mean, it's awkward. It's yeah, some places are more conducive than others, but it's, it's the doing, it's the deepening of the friendship that's actually keeping most of us lonely. So it's a beautiful question, Michael, and for you to already have vulnerability with them and already have all that history.

27:23So you've had, you do still have consistency with them because you're still interacting with them. You're still in touch with them. So you do have it. And if you wanted to deepen that friendship, you are, you have the correct answer. It is frequency. It's figuring out a way to be like, How do we see them more often? How do we interact with them in between those times? Is it something where even though we've been couple friends, is it something where he and I can go do something and build a friendship, the two of us a little bit more, or that she and the wives can go do that? There's all these different ways to increase that frequency or the ways you interact or the times you spend together and what you're doing.

27:57And so, yeah, definitely, that is the answer. The more you interact, the more you benefit from the relationship, for sure. And I think in a world where we can't take proximity for granted, you know, it's not our next door neighbor typically. It may not even be somebody in our neighborhood, but we've got to be consistent. We've got to be intentional. So what happens, I had this happen with a good friend. We used to walk twice a week together. So Tuesdays and Thursdays, you know, we were both trying to get our exercise in. We didn't have any competition first thing in the morning. It was like before the kids had to get out the door to school.

28:31we met early and we would walk and it was awesome. And then she ended up moving out of town and it's like, feels like such a loss because we have so much in common. We like each other so much, but that container, like our friendship happened in that container. Kids went to school together too. So we saw each other at school stuff, but we were like out there at the rec center, you know, twice a week doing our walk. So if you have somebody in your life or maybe somebody you met at a mastermind who doesn't live in the same state or even the same country that you live in, And like, can you do consistency with distance?

29:05Is that even possible? Or does it have to be people like that live within five minutes of you or something? It's such a great clarifying question, Megan. Proximity helps create consistency, no doubt. There's so many studies that show we're going to bond with the people we see most often who are closest to us. But most of us are going to have some of our bestest relationships be long distance. I just moved to a new house two years ago and I'm making new friends, but I will tell you all my bestest, bestest friends are long distance friends right now. And that means that one on Sunday nights, there's five of us that get on a zoom call every Sunday night, whoever can make it.

29:44We're on a zoom call. That means every Wednesday at noon, I'm talking to my friend share. That means that I've got two or three other people that I'm like always thinking about when I'm on a walk, which one can I call and talk to? So my closest friends, like I have incredible intimacy and the highest level of vulnerability with them. And I may only see them a couple of times a year or once a year even. And, but that, it did help that at some point we did have consistency in person. Sure. So we certainly have memories that we've made and have had the benefit of knowing each other in that way and having shared those experiences together.

30:16But absolutely, most of us need to learn how to do more intimacy in a, in a long distance way because we're moving. We're on the move often. And again, it goes back to the point of like, why start over every single time? Okay, that's really helpful. I think that's encouraging to a lot of people because it's just, even if you don't move or you don't change jobs, you know, you're a friend and we don't want to be starting over all the time. Yeah, agreed.

30:53So let's talk about positivity, because like I was saying, it didn't make sense to me when I just saw it on the slide. But as you begin to unpack, and I thought, that's absolutely right. That's why that's got to be the foundation. Yeah. So positivity is not being Mrs. Positivity. It's not being Pollyanna. It's not being a positive person. By scientific definition here, positivity is leaving each other feeling positive emotions. And so it's the way we interact in a way that leaves us feeling the reward of friendship. So any of us listening to this podcast, when we think about wanting friends, not a single one of us is thinking like, oh yeah, I would just love to have more people who like make me feel like I'm never doing enough.

31:32And then I'm like always losing and like that they are like, I'm judging me. Like every single one of us, when we think about wanting friendships, it's like, I want to feel loved. I want to have fun. I want to laugh. I want to feel adored. I want to feel appreciated. I want to like, it's the rewards we want. It's the good feelings we want. And we're human animals. Like we don't even necessarily stop to think, but every single thing we do, we're doing with hopes that it leaves us feeling good. And that's true of every single person that we interact with. We are going to, most of us unconsciously gravitate to the people who have left us feeling good about ourselves in the past.

32:08So when we walk into a room, we're going to be drawn to the people who have left us feeling some level of a pleasant emotion. So the reason that's at the foundation of all relationships is that if we don't leave each other feeling good, and by good that can mean inspired or encouraged or validated or empathy or laughter, enjoyment, just all those, any pleasant emotions, they're all so many of them, so good. If they don't leave us feeling good, we're not going to want to be consistent and interact with them on a regular basis. We're not going to devote the time. We're not going to get the babysitter for it.

32:43We're not going to be excited when girls night comes or the guys are getting together. We're going to find ourselves feeling kind of like, oh, I don't know if I want to do this because, and that's a way of recognizing it probably hasn't had a huge reward or a big payoff for us. And vulnerability is the third requirement. We're not going to be vulnerable with somebody if we don't, if they don't leave us feeling loved and affirmed and validated and empathized with. So it is the foundation in that, you know, and I always think of the Maya Angelou quote that was like, we'll, and I'm paraphrasing badly here, but kind of like, we'll forget what they did for us.

33:15They'll forget what they said to us, but we won't forget how they made us feel, you know, and that's, that's positivity. So it's, uh, it's leaving each other feeling seen. So the way we practice this is being so much better at thinking when we first interact with somebody, when we get together, being like, Oh, I'm so glad I've been looking forward to having this lunch with you. Or like, you know, just an affirmation and telling that person we're excited. It's making sure when we leave, we say, thank you so much for sharing all of that with me. I feel so special that you shared that and I'm with you and cheering for you all the way.

33:46It's just letting them know. It's taking away any doubt. Here's the thing. Every single one of us, our greatest fear is the fear of rejection, which means we're afraid of them not liking us the way we might like them. We're afraid of not being liked. We're afraid of not being wanted. We're afraid of not being loved. And we're going to walk away and wonder if we said the wrong thing. And if we should have done it this way or done that. Anything we can say to our friends, to each other that says, you're accepted. I love you. I see you. That cannot be underestimated because people are craving feeling more loved and they're going to gravitate to the people who leave them feeling that.

34:23I just reflect on my own friendships and the people I want to hang around. I don't need more emotional vampires. I don't need people that drain me. I need people that are, it's a life giving relationship. Yes. Yes. I would be curious, Michael, when you, I love the exercise you're doing. So when you think about them, you could probably go down the list of like, what is it about that person that I find myself excited to hang out with them? Or what is it about that person? And you could probably even name the different ways you get positivity from different relationships. Okay. Well, let's go to vulnerability.

34:55Yeah. Vulnerability is the third requirement. And it's so important because if you just have positivity and consistency, that's what we would call a social life. It's people that you enjoy hanging out with and you see them on a regular basis. So we've got a lot of poker clubs, golf club, golf groups, book clubs, moms groups that can fulfill that definition. But for lack of the third requirement, we're not going to feel close to each other. We're not going to feel known. We're not going to feel like we, that they get me, that they see me. So vulnerability is the ability to reveal ourselves in incremental ways where we feel like both people are opening up a little bit.

35:27And this is where we're kind of learning about who each other is, how they respond to different things, what hurts their feelings, what makes them laugh, what like just kind of all the little data that we're taking in all times about each other and kind of putting a folder in place that says, this is who this person is. This is their personality. This is their stories. They've told me this is how they respond to life. These are the, this is how he takes his coffee. This is how she does this, but it's all the data that we're just kind of picking up and learning about each other. And this is the one that leaves us feeling known.

35:56Um, you know, it's, we all say we want to be loved, but if people just adored us, but we don't feel like they know us, it leaves you feeling very empty. There's a ton of celebrities. There's a ton of people who are adored and loved and yet they're like, but you don't even know me. And so it's that knowing each other that really leaves us feeling truly loved. And so the vulnerability is what creates that sense of meaningfulness and being known in a relationship. That makes a lot of sense. What can we do to foster that? Because I think a lot of people get into a relationship and they're kind of waiting for the other person to go first.

36:26But how can we foster vulnerability, to get below that surface level. Because I've had friends, frankly, that have been very surfacy, and I've been frustrated because it doesn't go to a deeper level. But I kind of have a fear that, or a suspicion, that I'm partly responsible. That's so beautiful. And men's friendships, we've done such a disservice to men's friendships, Michael. We have not given permission, encouraged, and modeled men's friendships to be vulnerable. We have basically only told men in so many terms that it's only safe for you to be vulnerable in a romantic relationship. And so we have not done a really great job of encouraging men to be vulnerable with each other.

37:04So of these three requirements, that is the one that leaves men most often feeling lonely for sure. So it's a beautiful question. And I do teach it on the triangle. So at the bottom of the triangle, our consistency is somewhat low. So we move up that triangle as we increase our consistency, so too should our vulnerability go up a little bit. So I'm never advocating just like, you know, go to 10 on vulnerability right away. It's like, Like, so we have a little bit of consistency. If we're getting together in this mastermind, then we get to know each other a little bit in that context. And it should feel appropriate for the level of relationship we have.

37:35And then if it feels good, if we had positive responses, we left with positivity, then we're going to see them again. And as we have more consistency, then we also increase our vulnerability. And you see, I'm just kind of drawing with my finger that we keep going through these three things in an incremental, slow, safe way. So I'm never advocating that we just need to prove ourselves and go vulnerable. go big or go home. It's that you do it in a little, little steps at a time, but absolutely the things that can make the biggest difference is listening, which is a skill that we don't do very well at all.

38:09And then asking questions that are more personal. It's amazing how often if you, like if you, the studies where we tape record people's conversations and like, listen to them and listen back. It's amazing how the bulk of what we talk about is like the Netflix series we're watching and like the Olympic sports we were like, and we're just like talking about all these things and it's possible to talk for hours and hours and hours and not actually find out what's going on in each other's life. So one of my favorite questions that I am known to ask all my friends all the time is basically highlight low light, you know, and I change it up based upon the context, but basically like, so I haven't seen you all summer.

38:44So I want to make sure like, tell me one thing that's gone really well. That's felt really good this summer. That's made you really happy. and like what's something else that's been kind of hard or been stressful. And I would love to hear that while we eat lunch or whatever. And so I'm always asking some version of like highlight low light. And the reason I do that is one, I don't want to be at risk of asking about, um, how are your kids and how was that vacation and how's your job and how's this. And we could talk for three hours and then you leave. And I didn't ask the right question about how's your health.

39:12Right. And I wouldn't have known that she's got something big going on in her life with her health. So I'm very careful that I would rather hand it off to my friend or to the other person to share with me what matters most to them. And so by more broad questions, I hopefully will leave that space for them to share what matters most. And we don't risk time just talking about the easy things. And it helps give space for kind of both ends of the spectrum. And, of course, I would be willing to share those things, too. And so just kind of thinking through how can we ask questions. And Michael, in your case with other men, it's going to have to be something that's modeled, you know, and it's something that you're, I could, what I can tell you, what I can tell you is that men crave vulnerability as much as women.

39:54Men are lonely and they want to feel known and connected and they may not have as much practice. They may not have felt as much encouragement in it, but the need is so palpable. And so we need way more men willing to show up and practice doing that because the need is really, really huge. It's powerful. You know, a question I started asking, love to see what you think about this, but I just started asking some of my friends, I said, what's important to you in this season? I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's corrective, you know, something that's like, well, you know, I discovered this health thing that I've really got to put my focus on to get better.

40:33Or, you know, it'd be, well, I'm really excited about this book I'm writing or whatever it is. But it's just, it helps you see what their priorities are. Love it. And it's safe. Yep. you know, pretty safe. And then you can get to those deeper questions. I love yours as well. That's a great one. That's a great one.

40:51This is also helpful. I'm just like taking so many mental notes and I know that people are listening and thinking, okay, now what? Like, yes, I'm lonely. I get kind of the triangle framework of the ingredients that need to go into making friendships. But how do I actually do it? If I leave the listening of this podcast, maybe I'm out on a walk right now, or I'm in the car line at school, or I'm commuting to the office. What's next? If I want to make this a priority, what's my action plan? So I would say, get a post-it note and write down the three to five people that you want to prioritize. If you were looking six to 12 months out and you were like, who are the people that I want to be closer to?

41:34So a lot of us are lonely, not for lack of knowing people. We're lonely for staying in touch with too many people. Our network is so big and we're trying to like kind of, and a lot of this for women, especially our loneliness often comes, we're the people who are keeping all of our kids with their friends and our husbands and our family members. And we're like staying in touch with everybody. And we can be lonely for just going too many relationships. So for all of us, it's really who are three to five people that I wish I could be closer with. And if you don't have three to five names, who are some people that you've met that you're like, I kind of wish I were closer to them.

42:06I knew I would love to know them? Or where are places that you want to be more consistent that you could meet some of those people? So do you want to get into cycling? Have you been wanting to volunteer? You know, so trying to think of like, where could you go to meet some of those people, but for a lot of us, we've met them and we just need to kind of prioritize them. So really getting clear of like, where is our energy going? Because what we want to do now is kind of narrow our focus and be much more intentional in saying, these are the people I'm prioritizing. When it comes to frequency, these are the people that I'm going to make time for.

42:36So when I'm on book tour, when I'm traveling, when I'm super busy out speaking, I can't stay in touch with all my friends, but I know who my four or five people are that like when time is at a kind of push comes to shove, those are the people that don't get shoved, right? So we need to like really know who our priorities are and hold ourselves accountable to that. So I haven't talked to this person in two weeks. I said, this was one of my people who was a priority. What is like, what am I doing to implement that priority? So being really clear. The second thing, for those of you who are listening, who are kind of like strategic and love really being successful and having goals and all that kind of stuff is I love looking at the names that you have written down and ask yourself which one of the three requirements would make the biggest difference in each of those relationships like which one is lagging behind so in some of them like Michael your example was this couple we have good vulnerability we pick up right where we left off and we have a good time I always we enjoy being around them but we don't see them very often so if we wanted to deepen that relationship we know that we'd have to increase consistency.

43:31For some of us, we have people we see all the time, or regularly, and we have a good time. That was kind of the social group I was referring to earlier. But we know that in those relationships, if you wanted to go deeper, you would need to increase vulnerability. So your strategy there is going to have to be a little different. So you're going to have to think, okay, when we get done playing golf, maybe I need to ask if so-and-so wants to like stay and have lunch in the club with me. And I need to be ready to kind of ask some questions about life, right? So like what we're doing as an activity together might not be conducive to vulnerability, but what could I do that's kind of a add on to that?

44:03Or, or could we ride together? Could I call and offer to pick him up? And can we carpool together? Like, how do I get time with this person that we are where we have the space to have that vulnerable conversation? In another relationship, you might look and say, wow, I'm connected with them. We've known each other a long time, the consistency is there. And the vulnerability is there. But like, honestly, every time they call me my I just kind of go, oh, and my whole energy drops. And we know that positivity is missing, right? So that's a relationship that has become more obligatory than fun and meaningful.

44:31So it invites the question. We know from the science that we have to have five positive emotions in every relationship for every negative emotion for it to stay healthy. So when we look at like marriages, we start worrying whenever marriage goes underneath that ratio. And so the same is true of our friendships. We are going to get annoyed with each other. We're going to be disappointed with each other. There's going to be stressors. Nobody's perfect, but we can always ask ourselves if we want to change that positivity ratio. A, is there anything I can do to reduce the negativity? Do I need to have a conversation?

45:02Do I need to forgive? Do I need to stop judging? Do I need to set up boundaries? Like, is there something I can do to reduce the negative emotions I'm feeling? And, or there's always something we can do to increase the positive emotions. You know, maybe we've gotten in a rut and we need to go do something fun together. Maybe we need to go to a comedy club. Maybe we need to go do something kind of crazy. Maybe I need to see if they're up for just doing something fun this weekend. And so what can we do? Maybe we need to, maybe we've gotten in a bad habit of just complaining every time we're around each other, or just maybe I don't feel like, I just feel like they're talking nonstop and I don't get a span, a space to talk.

45:34So that's ruining my joy. Like, what can I do? What can I experiment with that kind of start shifting the pattern that we've established in this relationship? And so let's get that positivity back. So identify your people and then kind of put a strategy together based on what would make the biggest difference. That is really helpful. It's so practical. And I just think in my own brain, I'm going, oh, that's not that hard. Yay. You know, like that's not rocket science. It's not a black box. You know, I have a question about male friendships. And I don't know if this is just an anecdotal observation or there's any research behind this, but I noticed that men have a hard time if they're looking at each other and they're trying to get a more intimate relationship.

46:16And to me, when I'm in an extended activity like fishing or golfing where I'm side by side, then I can ask those questions that are more vulnerable. And it's not as scary as looking into my eyes and having to ask it. Is there anything around that? Is that a male thing? Or is that just, I have a unique? No, no, no, no, no. It's a thing for sure. Where there's some conversation about it is how much of that is prescriptive versus descriptive. Because men in other cultures enjoy looking at each other and having deep conversations and sit around tables and do conversations. So we know it's not a gender thing, but it might be a male American thing or other countries as well.

46:52This is how we have conditioned you. We've conditioned you that you do activities side by side. And we as women have been conditioned that we do bonding face to face, but that's just conditioning and that can change. And it's hurting your health. It's one of my theories for why men die sooner than women. And one of my theories why men tend to remarry faster after death and divorce, because the only place we've told you it's okay to be vulnerable as in your romantic relationships and it's, it's, it's killing you. It's hurting you. So I would venture to say, it's going to feel a little awkward, but you're all literally dying for it.

47:25So learning how to do it, you're capable of it. Some like men are so, so capable of it, but you might be less practiced at it. So Naomi Wade has done research and she has a book called deep secrets where she actually tracks boys, Michael, where boys and girls are, have the same level of vulnerability up until about puberty. And then when it's kind of something about we watch this thing happen, where the boys up to that point, we'll look at each other and go, I love you. He's my best friend. Like they talk to their best friends the same way girls do. And then something starts happening there where it's not cool to be like a girl.

47:54And we start seeing something shift and we start seeing girls go deeper, deeper, deeper, and boys just doing more slapstick, funny and hitting each other and just kind of competing and playing. And when you can watch this, you can watch the boys loneliness and you can watch the suicide rates go up and you watch this thing happen. So I think what's really fascinating is that you're capable of it, but I don't think you're getting as much practice at it in high school and college as the girls are getting. But we need to change that. We desperately need to change that. This conditioning is really interesting.

48:25I remember being in Ethiopia about 12 years ago, and I would see adult men walking through the villages holding hands. It was just friendship. And I was kind of taken back by that because that would be difficult for a lot of traditionally raised men in this culture to do that. But it just made me aware of how conditioned I am. It is. I mean, you go to Greece and it's all men sitting in taverns, like at tables, just talking and laughing and playing games. I mean, I go other places and travel and I'm like, where are the women? Like it's men are the ones who often have the time to be sitting around the tables talking.

48:59And like, I take pictures of men and men's groups all around the world just being like, wow, because it's you're right here. It's that doesn't happen as much. But the need is huge. So I hope you change it. Great.

49:18Well, we could continue having this conversation for hours and hours because there's just so much here. Alas, we are at the end of our time together. But we always ask our guests three questions. And it's kind of a lightning round, but there They're really deeper questions. And the show is called The Double Win Show because we want people not just to win at work. We want them to win in all nine domains of their life. That's what we think of when we think of success, including community. So what is the biggest obstacle for you personally in getting that double win, winning at work, and succeeding at life?

49:54That's a vulnerable question. It's a vulnerable question. I love it. I'm good for it. So what's the biggest obstacle to me winning in both places, just in general or in my relationship? Yeah, just in general. Yeah, yeah, just in general. Particularly in this season. For me, I think the biggest obstacle is being willing to be seen even when I feel like I'm failing or even when I feel like I'm not looking as great. And sometimes just feeling like I can be tempted when I'm under stress to put on a persona or put on a happy face. And so really, really making sure that I practice vulnerability. And that's on social media too, at inappropriate ways in a broader way, but also with my close friends.

50:35So kind of holding myself to that vulnerability that, uh, that matters so much. That's really good. Um, how do you personally know when you've gotten the double win, when you're winning at work and succeeding? Boy, it's just such a feeling, isn't it? It's a, so I have a definition of success that has five different things. So it looks at my wellbeing. It looks at my lifestyle, which to me is like sitting on my deck, having spacious, slow mornings and travel and a bunch of other things. And then it has to have impact and it has to have financial wellbeing and then it has to have relationships. So I like do a pretty often, um, assessment of those.

51:10And when I have all five of those, like feeling like I'm a seven or above, I feel like I'm winning. So to me, just making money, if I were, if it were at risk of my health, it wouldn't be winning. Or if I had great relationships, but it was at risk of, you know, not being able to get, to have the impact I want in the world. So yeah, for me, those five, when they all come together, I feel like I'm winning. It's like having kind of a baseline of attentiveness to all those areas and they're, they're getting what they need. And not willing to sacrifice one for the other. Yeah. Yes. Yes. We are right there with you.

51:44Okay. What's one ritual or routine that helps you do what you do? Slow mornings. I love slow, spacious mornings. So waking up, sitting on my deck, having coffee, And then my husband and I will just have, we'll read a book together and just have big conversations and just have some different rituals, gratitude journals, meditation stuff. And to me, just having that locked in just feels like such a, such a. It's like the ultimate luxury. Yeah, it is. It is. It is. Before we say goodbye here, if people want to start with your work and go deeper, where should they start? You've got what? Three books, right?

52:22Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's your website, several videos. Yeah, that's good questions. If you feel like you want new friends, then friendships don't just happen as a great book for you. If you want deeper friends, we were talked a lot about friend intimacy today. Most of the stuff came from the friend intimacy book. If you're wanting better relationships at work, or you're the leader of an organization, we've got 60 % of the workforce lonely. We need to address that. That would be the business of friendship. And then if you just are on my newsletter list at shasta nelson.com, I have international trips I take people on a couple times a year.

52:53I have friendship coaching circles. I have a ton of videos on YouTube. So I have a podcast that just came out this summer that's all about tough conversations with friends and some of the hard things that happen with our friendships. So yeah, all of that stuff would be on my website. Or if you sign up for the newsletter, I would always announce stuff when it's coming out. ShastaNelson.com. I love this idea too of getting a circle of your friends and reading through the books because then you kind of get everybody calibrated to the same kind of framework. I love that. And I like that. I love that.

53:25You have a common language. Yes. And I have on my website under each of the books, I have written a book study guide to go with every single one of my books. Oh, that's perfect. And not only did I do a book study guide, I did a book study guide for all of them that is an option to meet four times and just talk through a few chapters at a time because secretly I'm trying to help you practice consistency and lock in four interactions with each other and talk about your relationships at the same time. So trying to help you bond with each other while you talk about my book. So that's all free on my website.

53:55Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. This has been a great conversation and I'm sure it won't be the last. Well, it was so nice to be here. And thank you both. Seriously, I meant what I said at the beginning to put the spotlight on this subject means so much. Thank you.

54:14Man, I just really like her. I knew you would. And in fact, when I was watching her present at the conference we attended, I thought I wish Megan were with me because she would eat this up. So what were your biggest takeaways? Well, it really confirmed to me how important friendship is and just personally for me, why I started a mastermind, why we started a mastermind, two masterminds, because this is tricky to figure out. And I think a lot of us feel the need for this, especially as high achievers. And I really appreciated how simple she made it. I like that she said it wasn't primarily about meeting new people because I think that's the part, as an introvert anyway, that's the part that I'm like, oh, gosh, it feels like dating.

55:00I got married so I didn't have to date. And the fact that it's really about some key ingredients, only three, not that many. And from my perspective, the consistency part is the challenge more than anything. Same for me too. Yeah, I think I was really taken aback again, as I was when I heard her speak, about this epidemic of loneliness. And I've heard again and again in various health circles, and both of us are health kind of nuts, and I'm sort of a wannabe biohacker. You're more of a nut than I am. Yeah, well, I'm just realizing though that whether it's nutrition or sleep or exercise or any of the things that people talk about on the health shows that I listen to, the trump card is relationships.

55:46If you have social connection, that trumps everything. And when she talked about that Harvard study that proves that, I just said, yeah, I'm not surprised. I would add to it purpose, maybe. Purpose and social connection. Those are the two things that trump everything else. And it's not like it's either or, but that's got to be the top of our priority list. Yeah, I think this is maybe an area that we emphasize less because we feel less confident, doesn't have metrics surrounding it, that we can, it's not so quantitative, it's more of a qualitative thing. And so I think it's easier to be dismissive of, you know, it was interesting, I was thinking about that statistic of 61 % of people report being lonely, and that's been consistent for years, even COVID notwithstanding, I thought that was really interesting.

56:30But I thought to myself, I have thought about people in my life that I'd like to be closer to. And I have pulled back from initiating something with them because I saw on social media them with, and I put this in air quotes, groups of friends. Like, oh, they already have – I'm sure they already have all the friends that they want. Now, in reality, if 61 % of people are lonely, those people are not necessarily their friends. They're not their close friends. Right. And I think that sometimes social media makes it seem like it's everybody but us, but it's not. Well, and somebody else told me this.

57:05It wasn't from Shasta, but I think it applies here. And that is if you want a best friend, be the friend you wished you had. Right. And I think it all boils down to initiative. And I've often said what gets scheduled gets done. And this is really too in friendships because it's not one of those things that if we think we're just going to give it our leftover time or if we have a free night, maybe we'll call up a friend. But if we can schedule it, at least for me with my schedule, it's got to get on the calendar or it's not going to get done. And that means I just need to prioritize. Yeah. Such a good conversation.

57:36Okay, guys. Thanks so much for joining us. We look forward to another great episode next week. In the meantime, if you would do us a favor, and that is rate the show, give us a five-star rating, and then also review it. We would love that. It helps get this message of the double win out because we're on a mission to get the message out there, not just this podcast, but the message. Thanks for listening.