SUMMER REPLAY: JEFFERSON FISHER: Staying Grounded When Tensions Rise

25:20Okay. This is somebody who I can't do anything with. It doesn't matter what I say. They're going to actually listen to what I'm asking them. And it's the same thing when I'm the one questioning the other attorney or I'm seeing another attorney. If there's another attorney who's asking questions and he's rapid fire, sometimes he's not really thinking of hearing what the witness is saying because he's looking down at his next question. Same thing with people who interview. They're not really listening to the person. They're worried of what's going to be my next question. Attorneys do that too. I know it's a good attorney if they have their notes and they just push them off to the side and they're just looking at my witness.

25:58They're taking their time before question. Dang, okay. They're locked in. Yeah, there's somebody that you already know. You better be on your game. Yeah. It seems like in a personal relationship too, it just really keeps it from escalating. Because once you get into that fight or flight, it spirals out of control. I had this actually happen recently. I was in a conversation, in a professional conversation, and it started to escalate. And it was kind of one of those things where it's like you're sort of having an out-of-body experience in your head. Like, what's happening right now? Like, I said this, but why is the other person responding like that?

26:33and I was on the more regulated end, but I was feeling myself kind of escalate. And I thought to myself in my own head, okay, wait a second. We are now in a place of fight or flight in this conversation. Like the other person is not even hearing what I'm saying. It's not able to respond. Like something else has gotten triggered here. And I realized I need to be the co-regulator of, I need to slow my voice down. I need to make sure I'm breathing and relaxing my body. And I need to talk in ways that are very intentionally non-threatening because we're not even talking about what we're talking about anymore.

27:09But it was just such an interesting moment of the kindest thing that I can do in this situation, because it really wasn't an argument between us. It was about something else, was to take control of the situation by getting myself regulated so I could let them sort of borrow that regulation that they couldn't access in that moment, you know? And that was, that was kind of a profound realization of it's not, it's not just being in control for my own sake for, to be more persuasive or to just kind of maintain my own equilibrium. But sometimes, you know, people can get triggered in conversations for reasons that really don't have anything to do with you and they need your help.

27:47Oh my goodness. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Even to your point, the mutual benefit, the double benefit of the pause before you say anything, what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. When you do take the pause, the other benefit is not only does it calm yourself down, it calms the other person down. So sometimes I might pause before I say something, not so much to even control what I say. It's to make the other person slow down. Because when you can tell they're getting triggered, they're getting worked up, they're starting to raise their voice. And when you add in that space, they understand and they hear that they're going to have to come down to match my energy.

28:32That's going to always equal a much better conversation. By the way, this works with toddlers too. If you have young kids, you're doing this all the time or either positively or negatively. but you know, I've had this moment so many times with my own kids. You have to be the one to regulate the conversation down. Cause my gosh, if you follow them, you're going to be on the floor kicking and screaming like they are before you know it. With regard to control, you kind of have that three-part framework, right? Starts with the breasts. One of the things that I find is difficult is I can be swept up into an argument and very self unaware of what's happening, but you've got a way to prevent against that that you talk about in small talk.

29:13So could you unpack that? Yeah. These little things I call small talks, there's nothing fancy to it. It's simply a talk that you have with your yourself. If there's one person you should know better than anyone should be yourself. And that's a statement in and of itself, how are you doing, doing that in our work. But small talks are these phrases that begin with a verb that help ground you in conversation. And it started with, I was in trial, I would write things at the top of my notepad that would ground me. And these are little things like, you be Jefferson, or let the facts speak for themselves.

29:53Little things that would help center me in conversation. Now, I'm not saying every person and every conversation is like, well, I need to have this granola woohoo moment where I have this enlightenment before I have this conversation. No, it's just, it's something short and simple. And you want to begin with a verb. Maybe it's as simple as be assertive or stand up straight or stand firm or be still. Little things that you can say to yourself when you're coming undone. Everybody has these arguments where all of a sudden you feel unsteady. I feel like I'm spiraling. I feel like I'm coming unraveled.

30:37These moments where it's not great. And these small talks are just something to help guide you. One of my favorites is a client that I had. She's so sweet. And she was always very timid, but her grandmother was not. Her grandmother's name was Doris. And she'd get all sassy. She'd say she had no problem telling somebody what she thought. And whenever she would get on a tear, her husband, my client's grandfather, would say, you tell them, Doris. You tell them, Doris. That would be their line. I can already see it. He's got his paper, not even looking up at her, and she's going on about something.

31:16He'd say, you tell her, Doris. Yeah, you got it. That was her small talk. So whenever she felt like, no, no, you know what? I do need to say something. I'm not going to just say yes or okay when that's just not the truth. And so that was her small talk. You tell them, Doris. That's hilarious. What a great story. Well, I think it goes to the fact that we need to be more thoughtful in these conversations, particularly the ones that are high stake and there's a lot of stress around it, or we have a lot of history of conflict in that relationship. But I can think of one relationship that I have where unfortunately it devolves into political conflict.

31:53And so much so that I said at one point, we're just never going to talk about politics again, because it's just too nerve wracking. And I think there's a way to have that conversation. And in fact, we have had a couple of subsequent conversations where it's been easier, because I think that both of us have been more mindful of that. Yeah. Being thoughtful is such an important concept for any conversation, especially the the difficult ones, political arguments, political conversations tend to be so because we tie them to the collective. We believe that there is a good side and a bad side. And we don't say there's a good side and a good side.

32:33One is bad, one is good. And the bad side is never ours. And we want to tie them to a bigger picture of, no, this is the one that's winning. And the other says, no, this is the side that's winning. Is there ever a finish line? Is there ever a win? No. It's always going to continue to go on. But I think some of it too is people desperately want to feel important and they want to feel right. And you add that with people who mostly talk politics, like my grandfather and his brother could not be any polar opposite on the political spectrum. And they do this thing where, I'm not kidding daily, they'll get a shouting match over politics that will never touch their life.

33:18Understand nothing that's happening in politics is ever going to touch them. It's not going to change a bit about their world. It doesn't matter at all. They're just home all day thinking of things to grap about and they will get to arguing with each other. And then they hang up. They hang up on each other. They get so mad They hang up and by the afternoon, they call again and then they're just as happy as can be. They don't talk politics at all. And so, but I think some of it too, especially older generations, they just want to feel like something matters and they want to feel like they can get up in arms about something.

33:56I see this a lot, like older attorneys. They may not have that many clients, but when I have them in hearings, they can just be mean. And it's because you have to just kind of let them go because they're trying to feel alive in that moment. They're trying to feel like something they say matters. And I have an opinion. And my God, I'm going to share that opinion. It's the only opinion that matters. And they can't really back it up, but who cares? And so I think that is exactly right. Being thoughtful in conversations is incredibly important. And knowing that when you can control yourself is the first step because you can't control anything else about what they are doing.

34:38You can't control a thing of it. You can only control yourself trying to bring them to match your energy. One of the things I have learned after raising five daughters and my wife, so six very important women. You didn't really raise her. I didn't raise her. She raised me to be told. But at any rate, one of the things I've noticed, and they've maybe noticed this about me too, is that when they're upset, if I will just hold space to hear them out, it will burn out. Yeah. I love that when people say hold space, they really mean just be quiet. Yeah. Just shut up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the visual of, I'm just holding this space for you.

35:17I'm here. I'm present. This is a safe place. We got this. In practice, it just means I'm not saying a word. It means I am going to listen without trying to solve it, without trying to say, well, what you need to do is by any of that, you can just throw that out the window when you can simply listen. Easier said than done. What I try to teach my kids, and we have a way of handling arguments in my house. Whenever somebody is upset about something, you have to let them get it all out. It's this visual of, there's no way I could pour new thoughts into a glass that's already full. You got to let them pour it all out before they'll ever be willing to accept anything that you say.

36:04And that's particularly true with changing anyone's mind. You're not going to change somebody's mind in two sentences and say, what an idiot. How can you possibly think that? That's never going to get them to change their mind. They're never going to say, oh, you're so right. I am such an idiot. What did you say? Oh, yes, that's correct. Like nobody's going to ever say that. So whenever you can, and nobody can do it over one conversation. It's typically, it might take conversation after conversation over six months over a year before you can change somebody's mind. Okay, I have two questions. The one I was planning to ask and then something you said that got me really interested.

36:42So I'll start with the second one. I want to know how you handle arguments in your own house. And I bet our community does too. And then the second question is you talk about this idea of having goals and values like going into conversation. So tell us about that because, you know, we love a goal and we love a conversation. So let's put them together. But first, tell us how you handle it at your house. Yeah, there's exceptions for everything. But we have what we call house rules. And that is if my kids are arguing. Now, they're five and seven. All right. But if they're arguing, number one, I let them argue.

37:18I don't try to stop it. I try to let them argue because I truly think it's a wonderful training ground for them to be able to express themselves and to try it. So they're stretching the limits of what they can say and what they can't say. Now, these rules mean you cannot say anything about their intelligence or say anything like a personal attack. You can't say someone's stupid. You can't say someone's anything that is harmful in that way. You can't put them down. It's more of a prove your point. And so we'll also sometimes have these debriefs of, okay, Ruby, you know, my daughter's Ruby. So what are you trying to say?

37:56Okay. You hear how you just said that to him? Yeah. Okay. Well, you hear how, what do you think he's going to think about that? He's not going to like it. Okay. And so like trying to teach how they're going to construct their argument. My son is much better at it than my daughter. One, he's older. Two, he's like a mini me and she is my mini wife. And so sometimes I have to be like, Chet, I know what you're doing. Because he can be like, if he wants to get something, he'll come at it multiple different ways. I'm like, man, you think I don't know what you're doing? But the best thing about it is using that as a place for them to express.

38:33Like if my son wants something, I'll say, tell me why. Tell me why I should say yes. I do that a lot. He might want me to do something. And typically it's right before bed, of course. Of course. And I'll say, tell me why I should say yes to this. and I never allow them just to say, well, because, because I want you to. That's not a good reason. I need you to tell me why. Convince me. And it's a great way to get them to think outside the box. And the one of my favorites that he landed on was, well, you don't want me to be sad because I'm your son. And if you don't do this, well, I think I'm going to be really sad.

39:09And like, when he said that, I was like, okay, that's fair. Every once in a while, they'll say something so good that I'm like, you know what? Game respects game. You know, I got to, I got to, I got to allow it to you because that was a really good argument. Yeah. It's teaching them the right way and the wrong way to try and persuade, to get your point across. How do you communicate? Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah. And you say, okay, how do you add these to the values? How do you show up? What I believe in is that you need to have conversational values, meaning principles that you guide yourself when things go unexpectedly in conversation.

39:44And they work the same way as a company value. Company decisions become easier when there's a company value. Values make the decisions for you. One of the principles of my law firm is biblical. It's feed his sheep. That's the commandment. And so I don't care if it doesn't make money. I don't care if this is not the right client for financial success. It's this idea of, does it fit with our value? Is it going to, does it support our mission? If the answer is yes, then that's what we're going to do. Same thing with a conversational value. My mom taught me kindness. And so one of my values is, where there is kindness, I will use it.

40:24If there is room for kindness, I will use it. I don't have to worry about the snarky thing I'm going to say right back. I'm not going to have to worry about the zinger. Question, is there room for kindness? If the answer is yes, then I will show it and I will use it. It just becomes easier.

40:44Okay. I want to talk, shift and talk about confidence. You said in the book, this is the most common question you get. How could I be more confident? And I thought you had some surprising and very practical advice for that. Yeah. I get the question a lot. How can I be more confident? And people see it as something you need to have before a conversation. I'm just building up the confidence to say this, where I wish I had the confidence to say X, Y, and Z. They got it wrong. This is the wrong way to look at it. It's the exact opposite. Confidence is the outcome. Confidence is the reward. Confidence is the consequence of doing the assertive thing.

41:25So what I teach is confidence is as assertive does, um, which it's kind of that Forrest Gump stupid is stupid does kind of thing. This mentality of when you say the assertive thing and you can use your assertive voice, the result is confidence because confidence is a feeling. It comes from something. If I were to say, I need you to be mad at me right now, you'd have a hard time getting mad at me. if I kick you in your shin, you have no problem being mad at me. It comes from something. So confidence is not something you can just summon. I need to be more confident and I got it. And now when I say the thing, it doesn't work like that.

42:05It's using your assertive voice to feel more confident. You talk about over-apologizing in that context. Could you explain or give us some examples of what it would look like to be assertive versus hesitation or over-apologizing? Really three main things when it comes to sounding and being and using your assertive voice. Number one is removing or cutting down on the excessive apologizing. That's when you say, I'm sorry, in every single sentence. When you say, let's say you got an email you haven't responded to right away. Hey, I'm so sorry. I'm just not getting back to you. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

42:42I'm just now seeing this. You cut in line by accident. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You're two minutes late to a meeting. I am so sorry. I'm late. Every time you have these unnecessary apologies, meaning you are apologizing for something that is not an error. It is not a mistake. It is not something like you truly made a big problem. What it's doing is slowly cutting down on your self-esteem and your self-worth. Instead, just flip it to words of gratitude. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for giving me the time to respond to this. I'm grateful for the time to think on this. Thank you for X, Y, and Z.

43:18Let's put it in an email. Let's see, I haven't responded to somebody's email in three days. Instead of the, so sorry, I'm just now getting back to this. I've just been so swamped and so busy. And I just have so many other priorities aside from you. Like that right there. Okay. Instead of that, all you need to do is say, thank you for the time to think on this. And they're going to say, oh yeah, you're welcome. I'm, they're going to say, thank you for your patience. They're going to think, you're so right. I am patient. Yes, I am. Oh, you're so welcome. Instead, just use words of gratitude. Just use words of gratitude instead of over apologizing.

43:53Two would be cutting down on your words, meaning I'd say something like, I hate to bother you, but, or this might be a dumb question, but every time you do that, you're just conveying the exact opposite of the message. In fact, you're inserting this mini conversation about your self-esteem, like right in between it. If somebody says, Hey, I hate to bother you. What did they say? They're going to say, Oh, you're not bothering me. And then you have to be like, I'm not bothering you. Are you sure? And like, no, no, no, you're not bothering me. Oh, okay. And all they think of when you're now talking is God, this bothers me.

44:25Like this, that's all they think about. Same thing with the dumb question. You say, this is going to be a dumb question. What's the answer? Everybody says, there's no such thing as a dumb question. And then they have to go, oh, okay, well, let me ask this question. And then all it sounds like when you're asking is, this is the dumbest question I've ever heard. So it's just you're cutting down on your own self-esteem. Don't do that. You just remove it. And in fact, instead of cutting away from it, just add on to it. You say, I'd like to build on something of this thought, or I'd like to add on to.

44:58People love that kind of language because it adds on to your experience. It's onto the conversation. One thing that I've been thinking about, one thing I'd like to add, any of that kind of stuff is going to build onto the conversation. Lastly, you want to take away or at least minimize the use of adverbs. Words that end in L-Y, like literally, basically, essentially, or just, or so, or bury. These are words that water down your drink. If I said nothing but literally, I have one of my best friends, he begins with, so basically almost every sentence, I'll say, Matt, what's the basic part? And he'll laugh because we've talked about this.

45:38I'm trying to keep him accountable for it. But people who say clearly, he clearly didn't, or obviously, if it was clearly or obviously, you wouldn't have to say it. So those are some things that could help your assertive voice. I love that so much because it's so practical. I mean, we can all find ourselves in those recommendations. We can literally very much so identify with that. But I love that it's actionable. We can just go do it. And it's not some kind of philosophical statement. So I think that's helpful. There's a difference between somebody saying, easy sentence like, I want to increase the budget, period.

46:21or somebody saying, this is what we typically hear. So basically what I'm thinking is, and you can totally tell me if I'm wrong, but so like, and maybe we, you're going, what are we doing here? What are we saying? So it's much harder to filter it out, sift it out to get the actual message. We call that in our house, word salad. You know, it just feels like chopped salad. Like, what are these words? There's a lot of words here, but I don't really know what they mean. And they just all sort of feel mixed up. I love this point about confidence being the reward. I will often say to clients, confidence is not a prerequisite for taking the action that you need to take.

46:59And the idea of taking assertive action that you're talking about, to me is a relief because it's like, oh, I don't have to gin up this feeling of confidence that I really have no idea how to access, which feels sort of like it just magically happens sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. that's not a necessary prerequisite for doing the thing that needs to be done. And on the one hand, that means you sort of have to come to grips with, I have to do this thing scared. Sometimes I have to have a conversation that feels scary, but it also means it's in your control instead of sort of like waiting for the fairy dust to be sprinkled on you, at which point you are now qualified to go forth and have this conversation that you don't want to have.

47:39I love that because I wish someone would have told me when I was a kid, you know, cause I think I always thought when we see people taking assertive action, they look confident. And so we assume that they are confident. You know, I had a, I don't know if I told you this when we were in Charleston, I don't think I did, but I used to have a debilitating fear of public speaking. And part of the reason that I had that fear is I wrongly assumed that all the people that I saw up on stage just loved it and were naturally great at it. Like they just rolled out of bed one day when they were 10 years old and they were just like made to keynote and they never felt nervous about it.

48:14Little did I know everybody feels nervous. It's part of what makes you good at it. Once you get up there, it's fine. You know, like all these things I had to test it. I tested it in front of 800 people, by the way, for the first time. So, you know, go big or go home. But it was great. It was great exposure therapy to realize, oh, I get the reward of feeling confident after I did the brave assertive action. It was not necessary before. Not only was it not going to happen, but it just wasn't necessary. And I think that's such great news for people. Yeah. It's this idea of most people are confident because they've been there before.

48:49Right. They've done it before. Right. You're not catching them the first time they've ever done it. That's right. Well, listen, before we wrap up with our three questions, the book is called The Next Conversation, Are You Less? Talk More? You guys definitely need to buy a copy of this. I bought copies for all my clients and it was fun to get their response. In fact, you commented, Jefferson, when you You saw us dishing them out. I did, yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah, happy to do it. But I just know it's going to be so helpful to them. But why did you call it the next conversation? People often say the wrong thing in the first conversation.

49:23It's so true. We tend, as humans, to get it wrong. We tend to muck it up. And it's the next conversation that truly has the power to change everything. If you and that other person, everything always goes wrong. you say the wrong thing, you can change everything by simply what you decide to say next. And the same thing applies with wherever you want to be in your life. The truth of it is, Michael, the people watch my videos not to change what's happened in the past. They watch the videos to change what they say next. And it's not the conversation in the past they're trying to fix. It's the next one.

50:03And that's why I named it the next conversation, that they can use these tools, these tips for handling the next conversation, which is going to make their life a lot better and exchange, improve their relationships. Great explanation. This is a book for families. It's a book for people in the workplace. But buy multiple copies. Give it to everybody you know, what a better world we'd have, both at our families and at work, and the political arena and everything else. Oh, don't get me started in the political arena. If we actually had healthy conversations, and this book can help you do that. Okay.

50:37So we have this concept of the double win, winning at work and succeeding at life. That's our whole thing. So for you, what's your biggest obstacle, especially in this time of busyness, to getting the double win? making sure my yeses and nos are balanced. I see it as like a seesaw. And so that to me is my success with my life, my family, my work as a dad, as a husband. And I need to make sure my yeses and my nos are balanced. If I have too many yeses, something else is going to suffer. I have too many nos, something else is going to suffer. So that doesn't mean I'm just going to say, I'm going to count them.

51:15It's not quantitative in some way. Maybe it's a very big yes. And that means I have to have small no's. And so that's how I see it in my brain. Love it. I don't think we ever had anybody share that. We haven't. That sounds great. Yeah, that's great. Okay, next question. How do you know when you are winning at work and succeeding at life? When you can walk in and you smile naturally. When you just, you feel like you walk in and you naturally feel enthusiastic. It's not even maybe so much enthusiastic, but there's nothing that you feel like you are dreading. I compare it to running with a parachute on.

51:53Okay. You feel like you have the wind in your face and you're really running and going and pursuing, or do you feel like you're dragging? Yeah. Really good. Okay, final question. What's one ritual or routine that helps you do what you do? Well, I'd say prayers. Definitely daily prayer. Aside from that, I really try to do my workouts and my breathing. I didn't learn until more recently in life, certainly more recently than I wished, how much our body plays a fact and our stress and our anxiety and how that impacts our outlook on things. And so if I can get my body moving, drinking more water and really focus on my breathing, because I didn't notice later that I'll hold my breath when I'm stressed.

52:40Yeah. And that definitely weighs. I mean, it's like you're truly suffocating. So realizing that I need to work on my breath, there's a, it's a great ritual. What is your go-to workout? Oh, so I use this thing called a tonal. Yeah. Oh my gosh. The thing that hangs on the wall and has all the little stuff on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I have a, I mean, remember small town, we have one gym. The weights in that gym are so rusted and everybody's there. It's fine. And it just, it's one of those things where it's like, I need to, it takes time for me to drive there, make sure I'm back in time for the kids.

53:16We have early morning, blah, blah, blah. This tone was awesome. And, uh, it's, I've had more progress on that than anything. I gotta look that up. Yeah. I'm not familiar with it. That's cool. Yeah. I like, and you can just do it right there in your, in your home. So yeah, I'm a big fan. Awesome. Great. Jefferson, thank you so much for spending this time with us. I think this has been enormously helpful and I'm a big fan of the book. I hope you sell a gazillion Thank you. Thank you very much. I think we're three weeks on the list so far. So we're very exciting. I checked last night and it was number five, I think on the New York Times list, which is no small thing.

53:51Yeah. Very blessed. Very excited. Well, I hope I get to see y 'all soon. Yeah. Hoping I get up to Tennessee here in a little bit. Well, we'd love to see you. We'll eat more oysters together. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Better alert the fire department. That's right. All right. Cool. Thanks, buddy. Bye, guys.

54:18Okay. I feel like I need to reread the book about four or five more times because, man, I just, I have a hard time remembering this stuff in the heat of the battle, but I know that when I do, it really works. Like that whole tip about just taking a beat, just letting your pause or your breath be your first word. It's easier to remember because of the way that he frames it, but it's so important. It's really important. I can remember when Will Gadara was on our show. And did you remember how thoughtful he was? Yes. And you know, the other person who's like that is Brene Brown. Like if you've, she's not really podcasting, I don't think anymore.

54:54But when she was podcasting, if you listen to her in an interview, and often her guests would ask her a question, and she would say frequently something like, hmm, I got to think about that for a minute. And then she would pause and you're like, Brene, are you still there? Like, did something happen? You know, because she would almost awkwardly pause for an extended period of time, but then she would come back with a really thoughtful answer. And I remember thinking at the time, I need to learn from that. What a great discipline to have. Well, and one of the things he talks about in the book, I mean, this is how nuanced it is.

55:29He says you can have different lengths of pauses for different situations. You know, a one to four second pause is different than a five to eight second pause. And it communicates something totally different. But Jefferson's very self-aware and he really pays a lot of attention to the non-verbal part of communication, which all of us have learned, you know, is the most significant part of it. But to me, I've never read a book that was more practical in terms of what you actually do in these situations to keep from, you know, igniting and overreacting and escalating the argument. So I just love the book so much.

56:07It made me think, I wish he would do a conference and pull people up there, you know, and have them role play. Because I think that would be so powerful to just see where we go wrong and catch ourselves in real time. You know, that could be a really helpful. Well, just to check it on that, I thought when he was talking, I thought what I'd like to see similar to that is a bootcamp. Right. Where you go and he has a whole bunch of certified coaches that work with you and you role play until you get it down. Jefferson, we have your business all figured out. Yeah, we got your business all figured out.

56:36So you can imagine, for example, one of those for couples. Like if you'd had this at the beginning of your marriage. Would have been so helpful. It would have been so helpful because we literally did everything wrong. And the only reason that we're still together is because we stumbled into a lot of this stuff. Not the two of us, in case you're just new to the show. We are father and daughter. That's right. Although that would have been helpful for father and daughter too. Oh, it sure would have been. Anybody. Anybody. You know, one of the things that made me think about was how when Joel and I got married, and he has said this for as recently as, you know, a week ago, for him, kind of his rule of relationships is kindness, like in conversations with me in particular.

57:18And that has really impacted how we relate to each other and how we avoid damaging conflicts. Of course, we still have conflict, but he always will come back to a place of kindness and will choose to not try to win. And it has diffused so many things for us over the years. He's honestly better at it than I am a lot. And I think it's unusual. And I think Jefferson's advice on that is spot on. You know who I've learned a lot from is your sister, Mary. I feel like she's really good in these situations. and probably because she's blown it in the past, like all of us have. Right. But she's really been a student of it.

57:59Yeah. And she's coached me on this some and it's been helpful. But man, this is the textbook. And I hope he does take all those Instagram videos where he gives you those short little videos. And I would love a desktop reference. Like with little tabs that you could just flip to. So it's like I'm about to go into a high stakes conversation with a narcissist that I could, you know, kind of look at the tripwires and the mistakes. Yeah, that would be so helpful. So, yeah, I don't know that many narcissists, but, you know, when I do. When you do, you really do. You know, you need a special playbook.

58:29Yeah, they certainly do. Well, this is a fantastic book by a fantastic guy, and everybody needs to read it. I didn't ask him, but I don't know if he reads the book himself. He does. Okay, great. Well, he has such a great voice, so that would even be extra fun. Okay, the next conversation, argue less, talk more. Jefferson Fisher wherever better books are sold guys it would be an enormous help to us if you would review the show and if not that just rate it that helps too but it'll help us to get the word out thanks for listening we'll see you next time