An EVIL Plan: Tommy Robinson Was Right "I Worked With Anjem Choudary"

25:16I believe that Anjan believes that, but I believe that Michael Adobalajos was probably a decent guy leading up to that point. And I'll tell you why. If you look at how he would have lived his life, so again, the truth's the truth. You look at what his neighbours say. Michael Adobalajos' neighbours say that if he saw them unloading their car and they're non-Muslims, he would come and help them. So he would carry their shopping upstairs. He lived life as a reasonably decent guy, to be honest, because that's the teachings. So if you can convert someone, if you can get somebody to convert to Islam, that is a massive point.

25:49So you're going straight to heaven, effectively. So I don't doubt that Michael Adobalajou, day to day, probably lived his life as a decent guy. So I get why Anjum's saying it. But then he's beheaded a soldier on the street. So Anjum's saying Lee Rigby's going to hell. Well, like I say, he has to in the eyes of Islam because he's non-Muslim. But Michael is a nice man. I get why Anjum is saying that. I don't agree with it, but I understand it because I understand the teachings of Islam. So what do you think, based on what Anjum Chowdhury told you? And I also want to know if you saw joy in his eyes when you discussed the death of Lee Rigby.

26:27I just want to know how evil Anjum Chowdhury is. Did he seem like he was pleased with the outcome? No, not at all. Oh, okay. Anjem didn't promote violent extremism at all, really. Until more later on down the line. He didn't even promote it. So Anjem said it's a reaction to military intervention in Iraq and Syria. But Anjem actually didn't believe that there needed to be any violent extremism. And Anjem isn't stupid. So he knew that actually all Michael Adobalajah had done, really, was probably radicalise more people that were following Tommy Robinson. So Anjem's view when it was, Britain will become Islamic.

27:00He said it to me multiple times. He said, Mike, Britain will become Islamic. Whether it's now 50 years or 100 years, the black flag of Sharia will fly in Buckingham Palace. That's what he said to me. So he actually understood that you don't need violent extremism. Salman Abadi going and blowing up an Ariana Grande concert, that's not what's going to take over the UK. That's not what's going to make Islam prolific in the UK. It's going to be political Islam, stealth jihad, obviously jihad eventually. And we can see that because there's been a playbook for that across the Middle East. look at Lebanon look at Iran if you look at what's happening in these countries it's not been single terror attacks especially targeting one soldier it's been political Islam which has become prevalent democracy doesn't survive and won't survive against Islam no against the political ideology and that's any any political ideology let me go back to radicalisation and what you learnt from Anjim so Michael Ajabalajo what other than because it has to be more than just reading the verse in the Quran is there a there's a word for it There's a process where you go from an ordinary man, let's say, to a radical.

28:06And there's a process for that. What steps took place if he was an ordinary guy that lived a decent life? What made him chop the head off a soldier on our streets? So first, if you look at the type of people that convert to that form of Islam, which is generally how it goes when you convert to Islam. So a lot of people that convert, revert to Islam, tend to fall into that for a number of reasons. So if you look at people like Jordan Horner, like prison converts, etc., even like Michael Adobalajou, generally they don't have a sense of belonging. And we see that with more recently with the trans movement.

28:43So for example, if you're at school and you're being bullied and you feel like a bit of a loner, which I understand is probably a difficult situation. You convert to Islam, you say that shahada, which is simple, you've got a billion brothers worldwide. word. That's how it's marketed effectively. So you get brought into a fold and now you've got the backing of huge amounts of people, even in the trans community, for example. If you convert to being trans at school and you're, like I say, a bit of a loner, having a bit of a tough time, you will have 30 people that are backing you instantly. And it's the same when you convert to Islam, especially under someone like Anjum.

29:16All of a sudden, you're not going to get that stuff thrown at you because you're going to have 30 people turn up. And that used to happen even when I was at school. So I went to school, I went to a school that was a large majority Islamic, so Pakistani, Bangladeshi, and everyone got on. But when it kicked off, especially between like Moroccans and Pakistanis, 11, 12 years old, there'd be loads of taxi drivers turning up to deal with that problem. Adults. Yeah, adults. Yeah. So when I saw Tommy Robinson talking about this, I thought, okay, well, I understand that. I've seen that. And like I say, you get the backing of a billion brothers worldwide.

29:47So that is very attractive to a certain type of person, like Richard Dart, Salah Hadim, he's converted, then he ended up trying to blow up Wurton Bassett. So the reason why is you go through the radicalisation stage. So you go from being a bit of a loner without really belonging to all of a sudden, now these people will die for you and they genuinely will. So you surround yourself with these people. Now you look at what's happening abroad and you think, Like, okay, my brothers are getting killed abroad. And that's why we see a lot of people going to fight with ISIS in Syria because they're thinking, look, these are our brothers.

30:21They've got our belief. They're being persecuted and killed. We should go and fight with them. So if you look at how that happens, you go from being on your own to becoming a Muslim to becoming part of Anjum's fold quite quickly. And I get it. It's attractive. It's attractive to a lot of people. If you want that security and that safety, you get that. But even when you know you're going to commit an act of pure evil, I mean, it still brings a fucking lump to my throat when I picture what happened to Lee Rigby. And I still think about his family. That's them finished forever. That's... Life-changing.

30:56Yeah, fucking shocking. But for somebody to commit such an evil act, just because they think they got the backing of millions of brothers, but they know that they're going straight to jail. I mean, he didn't run from the scene. He's standing there with a blood-drenched knife, talking like it was everyday behaviour. That radicalisation, how does he get to that point, irrespective of consequence, he still does it? I know you've kind of explained it, but I'm finding this whole thing hard to digest because I'm not a radical person. So Mark Lado-Bellagier doesn't care about the UK legal system. He thinks he'll be judged by a law.

31:35That's it. So he's not interested. He'll go and sit in prison because he's done good work. as far as he's concerned. So he doesn't care what we think. From what I understand, he's been de-radicalised now to the most part. But at that point, he thinks there's a task to do. He thinks the UK military are legitimate targets. So does Anjem. So Anjem never said, yeah, that was a good thing to do and he should have done it. But Anjem says these are legitimate targets. These are people that are killing babies in Iraq, Afghanistan, even though Lee Rubey obviously wasn't. That's the way that they see it.

32:08So they think they've had the word of God. Like I say, if you look at the later verses in the Quran, it allows for it. So Michael Adoblager has gone out and done what he believes is good work, which is fucking mental. Oh, that is frightening to think that somebody, they're so convinced they've got the backing of God that no matter what they do or how they spend their living years, it doesn't matter. I can spend the next 50 years in jail, no problem. My love for Allah is far more stronger than my actual life itself. And then they'll go to a better place once they're dead. no doubt they think. And that's, yeah, 100 % what they think.

32:40So in the living life... This should frighten the shit out of people. This should really wake people up and think, fuck, they can take it to that extreme because they think they've got the backing of Allah. Yeah, and this to me was when I started understanding some of the issues. So after Lee Rubi, I'll go and sit with Anjum and I'll say, okay, Anjum, you tell me then, what do you think should happen? And Anjum says to me, well, it's obvious what should happen. That Lee Rubi's family should be compensated, 100 camels, 20 of which should be pregnant. Is this what it says in the Quran? Yeah, of course it does, because that's what Anjum Chowdhury is reciting.

33:10So I'm thinking, fuck, this is crazy. And he said that with a straight face. With a totally straight face. He believed that. Yeah, because he's not making the rules. So when you hear what people say, so I see, like I say, moderate Muslims, who are probably decent people. Alfie Best, he had on it, probably a really decent guy. Doesn't understand what he's getting into. I don't believe for one second he's got the first clue what he's getting into. And this is the issue. But now if he leaves Islam, he's an apostate sentence to death, and they will enforce that. because at the moment, you and I really are legitimate targets.

33:38And the reason why is you know about Islam, I know about Islam. You've had the opportunity to revert, as they say, and you haven't done it. So you're a legitimate target. Where he has reverted, if he now leaves, that is absolutely going against the grain completely. Is that the worst thing you can do as a Muslim? It's the worst thing you can do. You can't leave Islam. What other outlandish things did Anjem Chowdhury come out with? Did he talk about Mohammed splitting the moon, for example? Yeah, he did, yeah. So Shaq al-Khawab, as his name, which literally converts to splitting the moon. So again, so if you look at Anjum Chowdhury, he knows the Quran really well.

34:15People say that Mohammed lived the perfect life. So you have to believe that Mohammed lived the perfect life. Now, whether you believe that or not, you have to say that you do. So you'll see that with people like Alfie Best, where they'll say Mohammed was the perfect man, whether you've got an opinion or not. So I'd say to Anjum, yeah, but my opinion is this. And Anjum would say, look, you can have an opinion, but keep it in your own home. So basically your opinion is irrelevant because this is the word and that's it. That is the teachings. It's not for youth question. That's what we've been given and that's that.

34:46And like I say, Anjum was an expert in it. He wasn't some fringe extremist that had been converted really rapidly and didn't know what he was talking about. He could recite the Quran. So if people really want to understand Islam, they should get their information from Anjum Chowdhury and the likes of? people that are telling the truth about it, really. So like I say, Ibn Ishtak's Life of Muhammad, this is where I've got stuff from, not somebody that makes their own Islam. So what I've found is that I probably know more about Islam now than a lot of my friends that are Muslim. Because they're decent people.

35:15They're people that have just grown up as ceremonial Muslims. They don't believe that Muhammad was the perfect person. And it's the same now. I don't wake up every day thinking, how can I take on radical Islam? And they don't wake up every day thinking, how can I be a good Muslim? They wake up thinking, what am I doing today? I'm going to work. I'm going to the gym. So in Anjum's eyes, they're not real Muslims. What was Anjum's take on simple stuff that everyone's aware of, like Halal, for example? Anjum thought Halal was just an opportunity to take over the food supply in the country, which it is.

35:44So it's all jihad. Really, yeah. So Halal's a modern thing, really. So like I say, in the times of Muhammad, Halal was not enforced. Halal was not strict. Muhammad was not strict on Halal. You could have any meat as long as you blessed it. Obviously, unless things were forbidden. So pork, blood, alcohol, absolute no-no under the times of Muhammad. But in terms of halal, if they were given meat by Jews, which would have been kosher, just bless it in the name of Allah. So my view is we don't need 90 % of our food supply to be halal. And Anjum felt the same. Anjum was like, no, we don't need to be, but it's a way of controlling the food supply.

36:17And that's a positive for Islam. That's the way that Anjum looked at it. But like I said, Anjum wasn't overly concerned with a lot of this because Anjum thought, look, this is going to be a Muslim country. And this really brings me to an interesting point. So at this point, I'm thinking this is quite fringe. Anjum's a small group, a couple of hundred people here and there. I'm thinking, fuck what Tommy Robinson's saying is actually right. You know what's happening? We're seeing an uptick in terror attacks, which is obviously an issue. So issues that Tommy Robinson's talking about in Luton with Anjum Chowdhury.

36:49You know, I've gone on a journey from thinking this doesn't exist. This is nonsense. Same with grooming gangs. So thinking, okay, this group of people do exist. This is quite serious. This is a problem. So then, but bear in mind, it's 2013. It's still early on. 2016, Trevor Phillips does a documentary and he makes a documentary called What British Muslims Really Think. And the stats that come out of that are shocking, really. So the stats that come out of that said that 4 % of British Muslims completely support terror attacks. So suicide bombers, terror attacks, et cetera. Well, 52 % believe that you shouldn't be homosexual.

37:31So now we're talking two and a half million people in the country believe that it should be illegal to be homosexual. 47 % and might be the other way around believe that you shouldn't be a school teacher if you're homosexual. About 30 % think that women who commit adultery should be stoned. So now I'm thinking, OK, these views aren't actually fringe. About 30 % of them as well believe that we should have Sharia law in the UK. Why wouldn't they? It's a law from God. It's a law that was preached by Mohammed. Why would they support British law in place of that? So when I started seeing those figures from Trevor Phillips, and I got to know Trevor Phillips over time, obviously Trevor Phillips now still has a new show on Sky, I thought, okay, these are actually not small numbers.

38:14The most extreme things that Anjum's saying are actually quite widely supported by the Islamic community. Again, you have to split Islam and Muslims. Some of the best people I know would say that they're Muslim. But when you look at Anjum Chowdhury's form of it and what people actually think, yeah, it's an issue, without a doubt. What happened on Edgware Road? So on Edgware Road, and this is what I'm saying, you have to split radical Islam and Muslims. So on Edgware Road, Anjum's preaching, and they're marching from Edgware Road to Regent's Park Mosque. And they're going, they're marching. They've got, I think there's about 300 of them, about 100 women, so a lot of women used to come out of them, fully burkered women and then there's obviously a group of men they go down the edge of the road and I can't remember exactly what they were processing about but on the edge of the road there's a lot of Turkish restaurants now again if you look at Islam different sects of Islam Wahhabist, Salafist, Diabandi in the UK predominantly Diabandi Pakistanis, Bangladeshis are predominantly Diabandi now again if we look at how these sects work across the world I spend a lot of time in Dubai Some of my best friends that are Muslim, they don't like Andrew Tate because he refers to women as bitches.

39:31So these are the different views that you get across these sects. So even the UAE is quite moderate. The UAE were the first to ban the Muslim Brotherhood. They don't believe in jihad. They believe in their area and keep in their area where it is. They enforced Sharia to a point but not really adopted a lot of Western cultures. Personally, no issue with the UAE. No issue with Muslims in general because, like I say, you get different types, different sects of Muslims. And you see that playing out in this event in the Edge Road Road. So Anjum's coming along, basically saying, unless you believe in Sharia and jihad, you're not a Muslim.

40:07Now, people that identify as Muslims are pretty pissed off about that. So guys come out of a Turkish shop and just started having it, really, with Anjum and his followers. That event, to me, taught me the seriousness of Anjum's operation. What he found was that Anjum is surrounded by people that I would say are pretty serious gangsters. One of them on that march had done two years in prison for discharging of firearm at police. So these are pretty serious people. He was on day release at that point from prison. So he's going on day release from prison to go to an Anjum Chowdhury march. So this guy comes out, starts having a proper fistfight with him, and they operated like a military operation.

40:46So there was designated men that got all the women back. So they diverted all the women away. all of the fighting age men came forward massive brawl in the street of Edra Wright and I thought fuck this is serious and they were organised they know what they're doing and they're organised so how severe was the violence that took place? yeah it was bad yeah it was bad frightening? so I'd done a lot of Muay Thai as a blue belt in BJJ I'd done a lot of Krav Maga so I was quite up for it to be honest even when I thought I was going to get my head kicked in going to see an Angem didn't really bother me go to EDL demos I'd be right amongst it people would be throwing bottles and what have you because there'd be an argument with the UAF Now, bear in mind, I come from the hacking community, which is predominantly left-wing.

41:25I grew up, I would say, predominantly left-wing, open borders, people are people, all this sort of stuff. As soon as I saw the UAF, you know, against fascism, the left-wing aspects of it, which I should have been in, really, I thought, fuck, this is vile, what they're doing and saying. Violence, attacking UDL, trying to stifle free speech of Tommy Robinson. So I'm very conflicted, but I'm quite up for it. So the level of violence didn't really bother me. I was quite happy to be in amongst it, to be honest. And I think that's where the access that I had was quite unique because a lot of people just went out for that.

41:59So I knew that I was going out, filming me with Tommy Robinson, who had multiple fathwares. Al-Shabaab had threatened to kill him. If you remember Samantha Leithwaite, the white widow, Al-Shabaab had put a fathwares on him. He had multiple Usman warnings which say, basically, you're going to get killed. There's nothing you can do to arm yourself or stop it. You are going to die. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

42:40Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans. And we're back. Streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me. Let's jar something loose. Ay, yes! I like that. The Certified Fresh Series returns. Your boss. You always like this? Or is this just an act? Oh no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. Let's segue into Tommy now, your relationship with him, how it formed, how you built the blocks of the relationship, and also interested in how your perception of him changed.

43:29But before we do that, I want to box off Angem. Now, knowing what you know since you got to know him years later, he's now serving life for organising a terror organisation. Just think, well, I mean, I'm even still curious. What would be your final description of Anjum Chowdhury? Now you've got the full picture of who and what he is. I respected Anjum Chowdhury. He was honest. He knew what he was doing and he was very well read. He was a smart guy, without a doubt. The truth's the truth. Anjum Chowdhury wasn't as a smart guy and he wasn't the worst person to be around. And like I say, if you look at him compared to other people, like Saifel Islam, like Abiru Mesa, the worst type of people.

44:08I don't believe Anjum was ever that. I don't believe that Anjum was ever violent. Anjum was quite a placid guy. Do you not think he knew what he was doing? He was pulling the strings of the violent people, making sure they'd done the dirty work for him? I don't think Anjum ever pushed anyone to a terror attack ever. I don't believe. And in fact, if you look, a lot of people that did commit terror attacks said that Anjum wasn't extreme enough. Because Anjum knew, like I say, if you look at history, that the UK would be taken over in any case anyway. So Anjum said to me, we don't need terror attacks.

44:35The biggest weapon of Islam is the weapon of the womb. So he knew that. He said, if you look at your birth rates, he said, none of your people are having kids. We're outbreeding you. We don't need violent jihad. What about his links to Syria and the terror organisation that he's now convicted for? Does that change your perception of him? Does that make you lose the respect you did have and think, actually, he was a piece of shit all along, but he just hid it well? I don't know the reality of Angem's links to Syria. Angem is the most surveilled person in the UK. Apparently, they didn't miss a single word that he'd said for multiple years.

45:06So I don't actually know. And to be honest, I never saw that side of him. I met Anjum as a journalist. I listened to what Anjum said to me. Whatever he said behind closed doors, I never saw or didn't have any insight to. What I would say is I hated Anjum Shadri's views. I didn't like what Anjum Shadri stood for. I didn't convert to being a Muslim as much as Anjum tried. Oh, did he? All the time, yeah. All the time. Tell me I'd be a great Muslim. But I just didn't believe it. I just don't believe it. I just don't believe the word of Islam in what Anjum says, which like I say makes me a legitimate target but at the same time I brought up from a Christian background I just don't believe it if I believed it I would have converted but I didn't so I never had an issue with Anjum I didn't really have an issue with what Anjum said because what he said was his legitimate version of the Quran of the Hadiths of his understanding of it and Anjum was totally upfront and honest he was never disingenuous so he always told the truth about what he thought He always said, this is what's going to happen.

46:07He backed up everything Tommy Robinson said. So they were actually both saying exactly the same things. So to hate what he was saying would be to hate what Tommy was saying. And I wasn't on board on that either. I was never a member of the EDR. So I was completely impartial at that point. So they're both saying the same things. Well, Tommy's accusing him of being who he is, and he's confirming that Tommy's right. That's exactly it. So they're saying the same thing, but they've got a different belief system. but Tommy understood that belief system better than most people think so if you ask Tommy he has even said publicly that he liked Anjum Chowdhury which I know sounds fucking mental but Anjum was a likeable guy so again I struggle to sit here and say and like I say I'll separate very clearly I didn't like Anjum's views I didn't like his beliefs they're not my beliefs but I respected Anjum for being up front in saying it and being a guy of what I would say is steadfast and legitimate in what he believes.

47:05And he never deviated from that. Okay, we'll move on to Tommy. But just so I can be clear and put my opinion on record, although I'm a non-biased podcast host, I think Anjem Chowdhury is and always will be a steaming piece of dog shit. That's that cunt boxed off. So Tommy Robinson, tell me about how your relationship blossomed with him and what you found, because you are. I mean, what we've just spoke about, Anjem, It proves that you're very fair, understanding, and you take all the nuances on board. And you also, you won't budge on your views and experiences. So I can only tip my hat to that.

47:42So, Tommy, you went in, so your background, just so people know, is within the hacking community. And we'll come to that towards the end, because that's mind-blowing as well, because you're also hugely successful, worth multiples of millions of pounds. So I'm sat opposite a very credible human being. but would you say at the start you were sort of leaning towards the left-hand side of politics you thought Tommy was the reincarnation of the devil and it was leading a thuggish movement and reading what the press were saying the sound bites the accusations what we now know to be slander what was that journey for you like to realise oh he's not who I've read him to be?

48:22Yeah so look what I would say is that it's a complex situation So we're talking briefly about Anjum Chowdhury. We're talking about Tom Robinson. This is complex. And to think that you've been smack bang in the middle, you're probably one of the only human beings on earth that's been in this position. So this makes this whole conversation incredible and extremely interesting. Yes, I spent the most amount of time out of any journalist of Anjum Chowdhury. So I spent more than 60 hours with him. And sometimes I'd see Tommy Robinson and Anjum Chowdhury on the same day, which is obviously interesting.

48:52So Tommy Robinson. so we would like to say the first first thing i knew about the edl was that my friend's not very happy that the edl are coming tost albans so i go to this demo a lot of people there a lot of people drinking a lot of pissed up thugs if i'm honest that's what you and we'll talk about edl followers in the mix that in itself was very interesting so i see them and bear in mind that i've always looked for free sources yes so as you say i'm from the hacking community it's quite anti-government, etc. And I always thought, unless I see sources from three things, I'm not going to believe it.

49:26Back then, that was the BBC, the Guardian, the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, whoever. Obviously now we know that, and it will come to us all bullshit in a minute, but I go to this demo, and I see these people, and I think, okay, media accounts are accurate, a bunch of pissed up far-right racist extremists. Then I hear Tommy Robinson talk, and I think, okay, that's all quite reasonable. There's nothing there that I'm thinking, oh, it's right, You are this racist, extremist fuck. So then I sit down and talk to him and I throw every question at him and he's got reasonable answers. So we're talking about racism.

50:02I'm thinking that he's going to be like Steve Laws now. So that's how he'd been painted. So I'm thinking I'm going to go there. He's going to say, yeah, I hate anyone, not white, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That's not what he said at all. So I'm thinking, okay, your views are actually probably less extreme than some of the people I've grown up with. so I talked to him about that and then I'm thinking okay there's a lot of misconceptions here you're not Nick Griffin you're not some far-right thug yeah maybe you're followed by people with different views but then I'm seeing him physically fight them so I start following Tommy Robinson so we go to channel four and we say look we've got this access there's a good story here at that point they'd done a documentary called Proud and Prejudice which showed Tommy Robinson and Qadir backs.

50:46There was more to that story that only covered quite a small portion. So Channel 4 were quite up for it. So at that point, I start following Tommy Robinson more often. And I'm seeing things that are happening within his organisation that he's actively kicking out. So racist extremists, he's got people saying, you're not this, you're not that, hand over control of the EDL. He's physically fighting people on the street to defend what he's saying. Now, if you look at how the EDL started, it started as United People of Luton, started with placards saying black and white unite, started saying Muslim, no problem, extremist Muslim, big problem.

51:22So when I started looking at that, I was thinking, okay, well, this all sounds quite reasonable. This isn't what I've been told in the press. So start following him. And actually, I started seeing a completely different side to Tommy Robinson. Not only do I think, okay, what you're saying is quite reasonable, but people say to me, do I and did I like Tommy Robinson. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I really like Tommy Robinson. And I've got a huge amount of time and respect for him. What did you like about Tommy Robinson the most? The stuff that you don't see. It's obviously I'm following him with a camera. And I said to him, whatever I find is what I'm going to report.

51:52Good, bad and ugly. He never asked me to not film anything. He never asked me to censor anything. He was who he was and he was happy to wear it. Simple as that. Number one. Number two, when we started traveling around Europe, there's a couple of instances I really remember. We were in Poland one night and I was teetotal, I didn't drink. So from 20 to 27, I didn't have a single drink. So in the early years of knowing Tommy Robinson, I didn't drink. This trip, he wasn't drinking. So we've gone for a walk around, around Prague and it's quite late. It's about 11 o 'clock midnight and this door flies open from a nightclub and this massive bouncer, he's like 6566, drags this guy out and slaps him.

52:36And I've seen Tommy just stop instantly. So this guy's slapping him, and the guy that he's slapping has wet himself. And Tommy Robinson basically stepped in and said, no, no, what are you doing? You're massive, he's drunk. And this guy's like, oh, it's got nothing to do with you. He's been sick in the club. He's drunk. And Tommy's like, look, he's a young lad that's drunk. Leave him alone. And I started seeing these things, and I thought, actually, Tommy is somebody with a really good moral compass. he got banging in the way and I think stopped that guy getting an absolute hiding so I saw that and I thought this is quite a good guy this is the sort of guy he'd run around we're driving through Luton one day bear in mind I know that there's a good chance we might get shot we might get dragged out of cars people that have gone to EDL demos with guns, bombs, knives trying to kill him I'm spending a lot more time with him so I'm totally aware of that threat so we're driving through Luton all of a sudden he's just jumped out of the car so I thought fuck has he seen something in the mirror where someone's going to be shooting us or whatever and he's seen somebody getting mugged at a bus stop so he's jumped out of the car and stopped that happening instantly now if you look in more recent years he stopped someone getting a dog nicked like Tommy Robinson is somebody that will jump in and be a warrior for the good really so I saw that side of him I then saw that people somebody had died in Farley Hill where he's from Tommy went round had a whip round for their funeral when both my kids were born the first person to see him was Tommy Robinson so I thought okay this isn't who he's been made out to be this is a good friend he's a good dad he's not the person that they've made out of he's a far right extremist really and that's what really gave me insight into Tommy Robinson it wasn't really about his views which most sensible people would probably agree with most of them and this was what was actually really interesting was that when I was at the BBC I'll tell you more about how that happened in a minute yeah because I still want to know how this documentary finished How you boxed it off, presented it?

54:31Did it get commissioned? What were the BBC's thoughts on it? So what happened, October 2013, followed Tommy Robinson for a period of time. Tommy left the EDL. So he planned to leave the EDL. Was that a wise move, do you think? I think so, yeah. I think it was the best move he could have made at the time because he was losing control of the street protest movement. There was all these different factions in it. And looking at where the EDL had got to, the EDL was a very difficult organisation to run. for him, had a bunch of regional organisers. But if you look at, for example, the police in the EDL, and why this really started kicking off, the police were petrified of the EDL.

55:09And I totally understand why. Being an EDL demo, especially in something like Birmingham, big lines of police, and I'm looking at these police officers thinking, you are petrified. You don't want to be here. Like, you are seriously scared. And they were worried because Tommy Robinson could call a flash demo anywhere at any point. and the police would then have to police it. And the police would have to police it against people who want to kill him. So like I say, if you look at people that were trying to blow up EDL demos, they were going to drive straight through police, they were going to blow a car up, they were going to jump out, stab people, shoot people.

55:43When the armour ran out, they were going to behead him or try to. And then like I said, they were going to blow a bomb up. Go and tell a police officer they've got to police that. Especially a five foot two DEI hire blonde police officer who you've told has got to go to and police an EDL demo. So what's happening behind the scenes? What's happening is the police are going back and saying, I'm not doing another one of them. I've got bottles thrown at me. This isn't what I signed up to the police for. So the police have got a very difficult situation. And so has he. And this is why I believe the police clamped down on him.

56:13Unfairly, in my view. I think everyone should be entitled to an opinion. I don't think that he should have been persecuted by the state in any of the ways that he has been, really. But I get the problem they had. They had to defend EDL demos from very violent factions of radical Islam. and the police didn't want to know. So I get why it was difficult. So there was a bunch of challenges for him. He couldn't control who was turning up. Now, who was turning up to EDL demos? The things I mentioned earlier. Yeah, you would get people that had tattoos of mosques with boom in and all this kind of stuff that they were turning up with.

56:44But Tommy even said, he'd say, look, if you attack innocent Muslims, you're a coward. People that are going to the mosque shouldn't be attacked. Tommy always said you shouldn't be attacking innocent people. That was one of the biggest things that he ever said. but then what you'd find is that you'd get people turn up so for example i remember talking to a guy who was a Sikh and he was a young lad and there was a beer pint of beer on the table and i said to him why are you drinking and he said no it's my brother's and i thought all right okay i said why are you here and he said oh my sister's a Sikh and um basically had an interaction with this group of Pakistani Muslims they were from an area around Oxford and um she basically shouted and a few days later they bundle her into a car to gang rape her.

57:29So if gang rapes his sister, because she's Sikh, they're seen as some of the worst by Islamic extremists. Sikhs, Hindus, so the polytheists, legitimate targets. That's why the Sikh community get it so bad. Right. Really, and that's why there's such a response from the Sikh community because they've been at war with these factions for a long time. So they're just fight or flight constantly. 100%. So this girl has been bundled into a car. She's been gang raped. has been videoed, pretty horrific stuff. So I'm speaking to him, I'm thinking, you know, it's mental. I can see, okay, I can see why you're here.

58:01Everyone that's gone to an EDL demo has got a story. They're there for a reason. People are spending significant parts of benefits to go to an EDL demo because they believe that they're the only people that are representing them that have got a voice. So then, front of this EDL demo, I said this young lad, and he's angry, shouting and screaming. I'm thinking, who am I to tell him he can't be angry? So you get these people that are angry at EDL demos that are then pictured, and we're told that they're an angry, violent mob. Well, why are they angry? Because like I say, every single person there has got a story.

58:33But again, at this point, I still don't believe half of what Tommy Robinson's saying. So he's saying about Muslim grooming gangs, again, very early on, 2012, 2013. This is way before the big press story. So he calls me one day, we'll come to the BBC in a minute, and he says, I want to go to this family, do you want to come? I said, yeah, I'll come. I used to go almost everywhere with him. This is all for the documentary. All for the documentary, yeah. But at this point, it's like, do you want to come? They might be saying, interesting, they might not. Okay, I'll come. So we go, turn up to a big council estate, and we go into someone's house.

59:05And I remember they had a washing machine in their kitchen, and they've got a tiny little galley kitchen. And we go in, and there's this whole family there. And they're sitting on the washing machine, and they're like, Tommy, thank you so much for coming. Start telling us this story about their sister, their niece, their daughter, this young girl that's been groomed and raped, and she's been given drugs, all the things that we now know happened and were happening. And this guy pulls out this bag of mobile phones, about 40 mobile phones in it. And he said, look, every time we get her back, they give her a new phone.

59:33She's 14 years old. And I'm listening to this story thinking, fuck, this isn't just Tommy Robinson's account. This is actually happening. And then they're saying about how the police investigated it, how the police didn't want to know. And I'm thinking, shit. Now I'm actually starting to see it. I'm not just hearing it from Tommy Robinson. I'm seeing it. So this episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

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1:00:509th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to live. And when he leaves the EDL, he was kind of at the end of a documentary called When Tommy Met Moe, Moe Anser, who ended up being a massive charlatan. So Moe Anser pushed this kind of moderate version of Islam and he was supposed to be a moderate. And it turned out he was total charlatan. He said he was a lawyer. He said he was this and that, etc. He's been outed loads since. His name rings a bell, but I can't picture him. Moe Anser. People used to call him Moe Anser. And he was always positioned really badly. even by Majid Nawaz. So he would say that he's, and Majid again, I think I'm not being a total short of sin as well, but what I would say to Moe Ansu is, for example, do you believe if the promises of Sharia are met?

1:01:34Do you believe in cutting of the hand? That then puts someone like Moe Ansu in a really difficult position because as a Muslim, you have to say, yeah, if the promises of Sharia are met, then we should have cutting of the hand. We should have stoning for adultery. And if you say no, you're now going to get Osman warnings from people like Anjum Chowdhury's lot, the Abandi Muslims, devout Muslims, that are going to say that's totally fucking wrong. So it put my answer in a really difficult position. And I saw a lot of moderate Muslims get positioned like that, and it was really difficult for them.

1:02:02So anyways, at the end of this documentary, and the end of that documentary is going to be that he leaves the EDL, and the documentary's not finished. So we, my company, had to finish that documentary for them with Tommy Robinson leaving the EDL. So someone turns up from the BBC. You'll see they've commissioned this previous documentary. we've now got the exclusivity to Tommy Robinson they turn up to the press conference and we say look we're filming this documentary etc a guy called Akhil Ahmed is there I think at the time he was the head of religion and ethics or something in the BBC he says the BBC want it and they want the documentary so they put it into development they put it into development for almost two years so they pay us an amount of money we put it in development it's on track to be a BBC documentary so we're making this documentary true what's happening i'm going through the process i'll go to the bbc and you have to picture short so you effectively give them a snapshot of the footage you've got so that's tommy that's and jem go to a meeting charlotte moore's there he's a controller of the bbc at the time no one was seen in her in the bbc and we show her the footage and she's like wow okay great access great footage great story but she said we can't have tommy robertson looking positive on the BBC.

1:03:20Now, why is that? Not because Charlotte Moore is some extremist leftist. The reason why is because in the early days of the UDL, they've sent a left-wing reporter out. He's gone bang, bang, bang, bang, bang with the camera, racist, violent, extremist, Nazi thugs. The BBC have pushed it. That's the narrative they've pushed because that's what that reporter says that he saw. So the BBC are now in a really difficult position. If they show the truth in this documentary, people will say, how could you do that to him for the last three years? You've just reported that he's a Nazi extremist. And now he's saying he's not.

1:03:53So they were in a really difficult position where it's like, tell the truth and you're going to get massive backlash. Well, don't tell the truth. And that's it. So she said, we'll never have Tommy Robinson looking positive on the BBC. That's it. So I said, okay, I'll never make a documentary for the BBC. And that was the end of it. I mean, that's damning for them. And this is coming from a man that struggles to denounce Anjem Chowdhury because you will not buckle from your truth. So no one should have any reason to doubt that the BBC are a corrupt organisation that spin a narrative that's their own and it's an agenda.

1:04:31That confirms it to me 100%. That's bulletproof. That's concrete in my opinion. What about the time you went with Tommy when Piers Morgan interviewed him? Is this the time when Tommy was holding up the Koran? He's holding the Koran, yeah. So there's a story there, isn't there? Yeah, 100%. So now what I'm starting to see is I'm starting to see the corruption in the media. So I'm starting to see the BBC have even invested public money in this documentary and they won't make it because it's the truth, really. And I got offered a huge amount of money to twist that story and twist that narrative. And at the time, I didn't have any money.

1:05:05So that would have been life-changing money for me. So the average commission from the BBC is£160 ,000 for an hour-long documentary. And that was done. It was in the back. I already had all that footage. So I was offered a huge amount of money and I didn't take it. Is that like a backhanded bribe? Look, they say the same in politics and it's the same in media. You can do good or you can do well, but you can't do both. And that's what I really learned. You can either tow the party line and do well in politics. You can tow the media line. And this was the crazy thing. I'm going to the BBC and there's left wing journalists there and they'd say what are you up to?

1:05:38and I'd say I'm going to Luton to film today and they'd say oh you're going to that shithole and I'd say yeah why is Luton a shithole? is it the airport? is it the station? and then they'd be like oh fuck and I'd say yeah because you won't tell the truth about what you think yeah so this is what I'm seeing across the board so then Tommy goes on Piers Morgan goes on Good Morning Britain which is hosting the time that's right and he goes there and he quotes William Gladstone and all these people and I'm in the green room so a lot of Tommy's main events I was there in the background and you sustained well even now you're still good friends with Tommy yeah 100 % which will bring me to a question I'm going to ask in a minute but yeah go back to go back to the green room so I'm in the green room with Andrew Pearce and there's another guy there as well I can't remember his name and Tommy holds the Quran up and Andrew Pearce saying go on Tommy so they're supporting him totally supporting him in the green room then I see them go on the show and they're basically, I can't believe Tommy Robertson heard the Quran up.

1:06:36I'm thinking, you fuckers, why not just not say anything? Rather than going and throwing him under the bus. And this is what I found throughout time. The only two journalists that I've really seen that have really, I would say, been solid, Jamie Bartlett, one of them, travelled to Europe with us. He really stuck his neck on the line. So he wrote the first piece that was accurate about Tommy Robertson. Now bear in mind, Tommy will absolutely bear his demons. He doesn't want to be whitewashed. He is who he is. working class dad from Luton even in a lot of the footage you say made my mistakes, I've had a life part of it.

1:07:10So he never expected anybody to say oh Tom Robertson he's an angel he's a saint. Jamie Bartlett wrote a totally accurate story saying that they effectively are the product of what he's seen in Luton. So they're the product of extremism that he's seen in Luton that he's very in touch with it and that Tommy Robertson is a charismatic person that has got way more support than you think Jamie Bartlett never threw him under the bus, Tom Swarbrick at LBC was on that trip as well. And Tom Swarbrick never really stitched him up. Now I hear Tom's got a show on LBC at the time, he was just a reporter. And I hear him arguing with people that are calling and talking about Tommy Robinson, but Tom's a broadcaster.

1:07:48So he's not an opinion piece like James O 'Brien. He's a broadcaster that's there to support opinion and debate. So you're not getting any of his views. But in reality, the point I'm making is, a lot of these people probably agree with a lot of what Tommy says behind closed doors. Then they'll go on the TV and say the total opposite. I was like, fuck, how can you do that? So that, to me, was a clear line. I'm out of the media. The media's not for me. That is interesting to know that they're cheering him on in the green room, but then denouncing him whilst they're on air. And why I asked you about your friendship with Tommy Robinson is because it's probably safe to say that you know him far better than most.

1:08:24You certainly know him far better than anybody sitting in their fucking bedroom on X, accusing him of having Jewish handlers. So the question is, when did the EDL break? October 2013. So I've known Tommy 13 years. Well, and unless he's been lying to me for 13 years, so I'm interested in what you've got to say for my next question, and I know the answer to it, because I know that if Tommy did have a handler, or he was funded by the Jews that everyone keeps accusing him of just because he supports Israel. And all of that is sort of above my pay grade. Even now I get accused of having a handler and being funded by the Jews and being paid to call division.

1:09:06It's like I'm just asking fucking questions, forming my own opinion. Newsflash, I'm not that important for the Jews to want to fund me. Just put that out there. But Tommy is important enough for somebody to think, actually, he can reach a big audience. is it worth my investment? But the question is for someone that knows him so well could Tommy Robinson ever be bought? There's no one in the world that's ever going to buy Tommy Robinson. I don't think all the money in the world would buy Tommy Robinson. And anyone that's known him for any period of time knows that he's not that sort of person. So Tommy had done well when I met him he owned seven properties.

1:09:43So yeah and I've seen people try and buy him over time. And even if you look at what he was saying and doing so after Lee Rigby couldn't do an interview with him. And most of what we did didn't go out in the public. And like I said, there was no citizen journalist. When I'd go to an EDL demo with a camera, like I said, you'd see the BBC, you'd see local news. There was no one there streaming unless they were from the UAF and they were really just trying to get soundbites to hammer him with. Citizen journalism is quite a recent thing, really. So after Lee Rigby, we do an interview. Tommy Robinson's got 8 ,500 followers on Twitter at the time, at EDLT Robinson.

1:10:18And we do this interview and I think, this has got to go out on YouTube. So I say to him, look, we're going to put this out on YouTube. And I said, this interview is going to change your life. And he said, yeah, yeah, whatever, Mike. See you later. That was it. Walks off. Put it out. That evening, 300 ,000 views. His most successful video ever. Now things are starting to change for him. So we were in some services. Someone comes up to him and says, Tommy, I've seen your video. Agree with everything you say. And normally he's getting white middle class people that hate him because of what they've been told by organizations like the BBC.

1:10:51We couldn't go anywhere without somebody, white middle class, saying to him, you fucking Nazi. And he would have the debate with them. And then at the end of it, he'd say, show me something I've ever said that's racist. They never can. And then they'd just say, oh, fuck you, you Nazi. And that's it. And they'd go. That was it. See us all the time. So that was really a pivotal point where people then started coming in, trying to buy his influence. People like Afzal Amin. So Afsalaamim was really being pushed forward as probably going to be the leader of the Conservative Party. Ex-army officer, very well spoken.

1:11:24On paper, seemed like the perfect guy. They tried to buy the UDL. So Tommy Roberson goes in with an undercover camera, gets a load of undercover footage of him. And I'm thinking, like, some of the things I've seen Tommy Roberson do are mental. So this guy's in with the top gangsters in the area. and they've said Tommy come to Birmingham we'll protect you basically you've got nothing to worry about you're with us so he's gone in there with a camera multiple hidden cameras and got everything then he's out with them and I'm thinking fucking hell we then went we went to Sparkbrook yeah so again people say why do I like Tommy Robinson we go to Sparkbrook this is one of the strongest Islamic strongholds and this is 2015 16 so everyone knows who he is and this guy pulls up in an Audi and he's obviously a bit of a gangster.

1:12:18A typical Audi car, all blacked out. He puts the window down and he says, Tommy. And he's like, yeah, he goes, fucking hell, you've got some balls being here. And he was like, mate, he goes, I don't even have to get out of my car. He goes, you've got a couple of minutes and you're fucking dead. And so he's like, yeah, yeah, all right, mate, we'll see. Walk straight through Sparkbrook. And I'm like, fuck, he's right. You've got some fucking balls in here. And yeah, and like I say, I don't think there's anyone else In the country That would do that Without batting an eyelid Even now We saw that obviously At St Pancras Goes everywhere on his own So he's always been steadfast In his beliefs So even when I see people That say He's been bought by this He's been bought by that I think no he hasn't When we were in Israel So I went to Israel with him In 2016 And we were walking Through this little market And he's like I'm going to buy a Mossad t-shirt He buys a Mossad t-shirt From this little thing And we all ended up Getting Mossad t-shirts But then recently it's this big long document from a guy saying my name is David Goldstein I'm the Mossad handler that gave Tommy Robinson the Mossad t-shirt and everyone's sharing it saying oh let's see he's been bought with Mossad I'm thinking that's total bullshit someone's just made that up completely and you're falling for it so yeah Tommy Robinson's not for sale never has been and I'm pretty sure never will be yeah it's so frustrating because there's so many people because not only and I want to move into the ethno-nationalism movement which is which is certainly expanding, that's for sure.

1:13:44Because for years, Tommy's had the left lie about him, all the liberals, the love is in the media, but now he's got people on the far, what would be considered the far right against him, and they're all using each other's lies to come together to attack him with. Now, I know he hasn't got a handler. I know he's not bought and paid for. I know he's not got fucking Jewish funders. The closest he'd come to that was working for rebel media because Ezra's Jewish, isn't he? And the first time I met Ezra, I said to him, I said, oh, yeah. He said, how did you get to know Tommy? I said, well, he first appeared on my screen when he was working for you, for Rebel Media.

1:14:21And Ezra's first response to me saying that was, he said, yeah. He said, I soon realised Tommy works for no one. Even when he worked for him, he realised that Tommy doesn't actually really work for me. He does what he likes and there is no, he's unmanageable. Oh, totally unmanageable. Tommy said to me, I'll do what I want when I want. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that sums you up. Yeah, no one's ever buying Tommy. And also, I also know I'm pretty certain that if there was a Jewish handler that was responsible for the funding of his life, he'd go out and he'd make a statement. He'd say, there you go, you wouldn't believe it.

1:14:55You've accused me all these years of being funded by the Jews, and I am now. There you go, end of discussion. He would do. I'd tell you, and I'd tell him not I'd tell you. He would tell everyone. I know he would. 100%. He'd find it quite funny. There you go, you've made these accusations. Now guess what? Be careful what you wish for. But going back to the FNATs that are now on the rise. Now, for me, I've interviewed Steve Laws. I'm now enemy number one of the FNATs. It's like this is their problem. A lot of them. There's there's a good argument to be had, I think, at this moment in time because we're being replaced.

1:15:28We've been invaded. We're losing our identity. I think the indigenous population is now down maybe below 70 percent. I mean, that's fucking dangerous ground. So I would much like to see far more indigenous people in Britain so we can keep our identity. But there's so fucking thick, a lot of them, that they they can't reason. They can't put things into perspective and they can't have a decent debate. They just shout you down, insult you. I platform Steve Laws to hear his views that it would reach. I mean, my platform reaches over 50 million people a month. I thought long and hard do I have Steve Laws on as a guest.

1:16:05I knew I'd be shot down in flames in the comments, but I thought I didn't build this platform to be in an echo chamber. And I want to hear why his views are becoming so more and more popular. And a lot of his arguments were very reasonable. Some of them not so much, but on a whole, I'm probably somewhere between Sivnat and Fnat. But I still get insulted because I asked him a few questions. I wanted to know just how far right he was. And the only way I get to know that is by asking questions. So they're so fucking stupid, they don't realise, I just platformed your man. But you're still gunning for me.

1:16:38Dickheads, you're never going to win this battle because you're not bright enough. And there's nuances to all of this debate and argument. And I love listening to them all. So someone that's been in the mix of fucking radical Islam, multicultural background, very close friends with Tommy Robinson, like what is your take on ethno nationalism on a whole it's a broad question i'm not telling you to a specific but let's talk about fnats on the whole what's your view on it this episode is brought to you by chat gpt hey it's bill simmons from the bill simmons podcast have you guys heard about chat gpt work it's the new way to use chat gpt for bigger multi-step projects and when you need more than just answers.

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1:18:02You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. I'm seriously worried, if I'm honest. So, and there's quite a lot to cover here. So, 2014-15, Tommy Robertson's story had never been told. Really, that's the truth of it. So he did have people jumping on it that thought, oh, you're in my camp. Like, you want to get rid of everyone that's not white. Then they realised very quickly, no, it's just not Tommy Robinson at all. So the Oxford speech. Oh, the Oxford Union speech. Oxford Union speech. You helped him write that, didn't you?

1:18:35I wrote that whole speech for him. So I'm going to sit back and just let you roll with this answer because I gave you a long question, so give me a long answer. This is going to be very interesting. I'll try to make it make sense. So when Tommy Robinson's story came out, so I knew his story well, By 2015, I've known him a few years, so I know his story well. And I know that his story has never been told. So he said, I'm going to give a speech at the Oxford Union. Now, bear in mind at this point, he's only ever used scraps of paper. He would write his speech on the way to an EDL demo. And he always did a good job, to be honest.

1:19:06And what I would say to him is that you've given this speech. I said, mate, no one's listened at all. He's saying don't attack Muslims. People are saying, yeah, killed a lot of them. So I'm like, they didn't listen to a fucking word you said there at all. But that's the way that he operated. So he says to me, so he's come out of prison. So he got sent to prison. He came out of prison. He's sort of been invited to speak at the Oxford Union. Nobody had ever platformed him. That was the first real platform he'd had. So he said, what do you think I should talk about? And I said, I'll write your speech.

1:19:36Your story that I now know well, but my structure. So if you look at the way that he delivers that speech, he's holding an iPad, it's my iPad, and he uses a keyboard to play videos. So I said, look, these are the points about what you need to cover. And it took us days to write that speech. And like I say, nothing but his story. It was just his story put together in one place. And what he says, and if you look at what he says is, like I say, black and white unite, united people of Luton. A lot of the people that he loves are non-white. A lot of the people that I love are non-white. So if you look at what I said earlier about those four different types of Muslims, devout, cultural, ceremonial by birth you can't say that everyone that's Muslim by birth or ceremonial is an extremist and needs to be kicked out of the country it's crazy they're not at all really interested in the aspects of Islam that are probably problematic for the UK so if you look at what's happening it's quite reasonable to bring it to the ethno point ethno in that point Tommy always said if you don't deal with something now you're going to see a rise in the BNP in the extreme far right, the national extremism unit wouldn't even categorise the EDL as far right.

1:20:48They said they were centre right. Because they had an LGBT division, because they had a Jewish division, they had Sikhs, etc. They weren't considered to be far right. And so he said, if you do not deal with this, you're going to have this problem. Now, sure enough, we've now got that problem. So what you find with people like Steve Laws, for example, is that that's not my view. A lot of my friends are not white. A lot of people I've grown up with are not white. When you interviewed Steve Laws, you talked about or spoke about people that you know that are non-white. I don't believe that we need to kick people out of the country, especially in the way that Steve Laws says.

1:21:21I think it's a dangerous ideology, but I understand why he probably thinks that because of what he's seen. Again, from being in amongst it, I get that if you think the country needs drastic change, you're going to propose drastic measures. And that's what we're seeing with Steve Laws. so somebody that's grown up in Folkestone by his own admission not in a multicultural environment, not with people not of colour that he loves, so they think okay well this is what needs to be done to solve that I don't think that's what needs to be done to solve it I think we need to stop boats instantly I still don't understand why we're not stopping boats, to me it's fucking mental that we're letting people from different cultures come across our border on small boats on a system that we've made which really supports them committing crime So if you look at when you come over on a small boat, and I'll come back to here for no point in a minute, for no point in a minute.

1:22:10If you come over on a small boat, the best thing you can do is commit crime. Now, why is the best thing you can do to commit crime? If you come over on a boat from Africa, Eritrea, places that are very different to here, they're very, very different to here. You come from Eritrea, you come to London, you find yourself in London. Well, now the best thing you can do, sell drugs, rape, do whatever you want to do. Now, you're going to get away with that for six months or a year. We've got no DNA on any of these people. but when you don't get away with it and when you do eventually get caught for doing what you want whenever doing earning money however you want you're gonna go to prison and you're probably gonna get even i've seen some ridiculous sentences for people two to six years which means that you're gonna do six months to a couple of years you're gonna go to prison you're gonna be fed you're gonna be housed you're gonna learn english you can do a bunch of courses etc but now when you're released you can't be released to the street now you're not getting deported that's not happening.

1:23:02So you're going to be housed on the street. And the reason why I say this is, Angem said to me, the reason why Islam will be allowed to take over is because we don't have a structural framework. And now if our laws were properly enforced with things like grooming gangs, et cetera, if it wasn't brushed under the carpet, we would not have the problems we've got now. They don't have these problems in the UAE because they have a strong, solid structure, which is enforced properly. You know, when you go to the UAE, they've got all these Africans, they've got all these Afro-Eritreans, they don't mess about there because they know that if they do, they are going to get the full enforcement of that structure.

1:23:38We don't have that. If we did have that framework you wouldn't see people like Steve Laws you wouldn't see the F9 Nats, you wouldn't see extremists that aren't becoming prolific in certain areas because it would be shut down very quickly. But because we've lost that, our own culture because we've lost that framework and our framework is now so weak that's going to allow these things to come in and now what you're going to see is more and more people supporting Steve Laws because they think yeah that's maybe what does need to be done and it doesn't to me it isn't necessarily a religious problem so if you look at those four different types of Muslims it isn't that it's a cultural problem that's what needs to be resolved and that's what needs to be sorted and we need a firm start and that's why Art Middleton he talks about being mayor of London I speak to him a lot I'm really close to Art Middleton I say to him he says what do you think about it and I say mate if not you then who?

1:24:25Because it's going to take someone strong and solid to enforce our laws that are built on Judeo-Christian values to get the country back to where it needs to be, if it's going to get back to where it needs to be. And London, in my opinion, needs to be run like a military camp now because it's so out of control. Definitely. Going back to re-migration, I suppose I'll give my view on it. Now, I obviously don't believe everyone that's not white should be sent packing to where they originally come from, not by any stretch of the imagination. Like I said, when I was interviewing Steve laws, I could just give him my, you know, it was a hypothetical, it's like, what you're telling me that I've got to go and tell my black friend he's got to go back to Africa, even though him and his family have lived there for sort of generations and they've assimilated perfectly.

1:25:05So I'm giving him, you know, it's a podcast. You have to give examples and scenarios and some of them have to be hypothetical. Otherwise, what the fuck do you talk about? But again, I hope the ethnats work on their brain capacity and IQ because some of their onslaughts on X embarrasses them, not me. Just putting it out there. But for me, I would 100 % like to see every foreign criminal re-migrated, if that's the term. Fucked off, kicked out, go back to where you came from. You had a chance. You blew it. You're now gone. Maybe, well, in fact, the Boris wave of migrants that come in that no one voted for, I'd say, sorry, you've got to go back.

1:25:48So to a certain extent, I do think re-migration is absolutely necessary at this stage, but this is just my personal opinion. But certainly not people that have been here for generations and they've assimilated and we've grew up with them. But I don't want a replacement happening, which I can see if there isn't that remigration policy implemented. But obviously the more this has gone on and the more people are more critical of Islam, I mean, I don't really have a great deal of Muslim friends anymore because they sort of think, well, I'm siding with people that are fully against Islam. maybe I am but anyway I'm veering off my question was going to be is remigration so is there any part of you that thinks there should be certain people sent back to where they originally come from yeah 100 % it's common sense isn't it so if you look at people coming over on boats well firstly that's not a good start to our relationship is it if you're willing to break the law coming over here and breaking into the country that's not a good start really is it Steve Laws coming back to Steve Laws and F9 nights, he wants to deport Craig David.

1:26:51He wants JLS gone, which I think is mental. Craig David is pretty bad. But I think, fuck, how can you go to being like that? And like I say, a lot of people that I work with, that I love, are not white. And I don't think that's the problem. It's a cultural problem. Good luck telling Nigel Benn he's got to go back to where he came from. Who's going to do that? Fuck, it's mental. Nah. So yeah, I think that that aspect of it is crazy and probably is quite extreme. But also, I get it. I get it. If you see, and like I say, this is complex situations and scenarios, complex around Islam, complex around different factions of the right or the far right, complex around people that will resonate or the Steve Laws will resonate with because they've seen issues, etc.

1:27:36But let's look at the actual reality of it. Small boats coming over should be stopped straight away. I don't know why we're not doing it. it is absolutely beyond me a woman fell off a cruise ship she's quite a fit woman who's a long distance runner they looked at the CCTV of when she fell off they worked out the current she spent 24 hours in the water she drifted tens of miles and they got her with a thermal imaging camera but we can't stop small boats coming across a 26 mile stretch of water we can and we're not, it's obvious again if you look at Dubai they have the same type of people It's the most multicultural place on earth.

1:28:12How have they dealt with it? So I spoke to a guy, and he's quite close to the royal family out there. And I said to him, do you ever come to London? And he said, no, I don't want holes in my body. I said, okay. And he said, why have you let this happen in London? And I said, okay, well, I haven't really let it happen, but I get what you're saying. And he said, what we did in Dubai is we had the Africans come over. So he predominantly said about Africans. And he said, you know what we do? We put them behind the sun. And I said, what does that mean? And he said, you know, New York, they say concrete boots.

1:28:41He said, we get them, we take them to the desert, we put them behind the sun. Basically, we assassinate them. And he said, we leave a couple of them, and we say, go and tell your friends. You come to Dubai, you want to commit crime, don't come to Dubai. So he said, no, they will come to London, because they get away with it in London. So I'm like, fuck, it's true. And the truth is the truth, really. We should not be letting tens or hundreds of thousands of unchecked migrant men from countries that are very different. So even if you look at Coney and a lot of these warlords that sweep across places, taking child armies, et cetera, I saw a story which is independent and verified.

1:29:17They go to a village. They take all the young women as sex slaves. They've got all the young men. They stuck them in a flower press and they pressed them in the street, blood running down the streets. This is barbaric. And then you end up with those types of people walking the streets of London. Now, like I say, incentivized to commit crime because that's the best thing you can do to stay here. Like I say, you get in prison, you're not getting deported. No one's getting deported. What about the prison system? Would you be happy to deport any foreign criminal? Yeah, yeah, definitely. If you're convicted of any crime, that should be instant, instant departure.

1:29:51Which, again, is obvious, isn't it? These are just obvious things. If you come here and you commit crime, you shouldn't be here. So where you grew up, say your school, for example, multicultural, multi-faith, is that right, St Albans? Yeah, definitely, yeah. If you was to compare school to prison, because I've interviewed enough people that have been to jail that talk about the prison system and like the absolute, the huge amount of Islamists that are in there that are taking over, controlling, putting the fear of Allah into everyone, convert or get hurt. But so based on what you learned at school and assimilation, what would you do with the prison system?

1:30:32Would you mix Islam in amongst the general pop or would you think it was a better idea to have a separate jail system for Muslims? It's difficult. So what you find in St Albans Luton and things that Tommy said that I thought, yeah, that's true, self-segregation. So we used to have a big club called Batchwood in St Albans. I don't live in St Albans anymore, but I still grew up there. and so my friends are all from different cultures. So my school was about 45 % Bangladeshi-Pakistani. There was then Moroccans, a lot of different Muslims and a lot of them got on to a point or didn't get on. In the nightclubs, you'd have the Muslim corner.

1:31:12Tommy Robinson says they'd have the Muslim playground. We never had Muslim playgrounds, but there was self-segregation. If you took on one of them, and I remember someone I know had a fight with a guy called Abu in school and then there's packs of them going around looking for this guy. So there's self-segregation. And what I will say is that it's quite honourable, really. They stick together, whereas what you find with British youngsters, they don't. They're a faction. No one wants to take that on. And I genuinely believe, being honest, that Pakistani-Bangladeshi-Diabandi gangs are the biggest and most serious gang in this country.

1:31:45Knowing what I now know about what had happened, they're heavily armed. there was a big police raid that took a garage and when they took that garage they had AK-47s, RPGs all this sort of stuff and the guy that owned that garage said we've got another 10 it's heavily armed, seriously capable heavily organised and we see that more recently in the riots, if you remember they're slashing Sky News' tyres, there's a guy riding around saying ANPR this, they're coming out of mosques with weapons etc anyone looking at that thinks that's not a problem that is a major, major problem it's a self-segregation now why would Anjum Chowdhury not mix with you well he'll tell you why he won't mix with you because you don't know how to wash you're haram you don't follow the rules of how to wash how to live life etc so that to him is a problem so they won't want to mix with you they don't want to integrate and assimilate they want their structure and they want that to be carried out in its most pure form really so on that basis can you mix in prisons you're never going to mix in prisons and that's part of the issue and they don't mix in in prison so if you look at what tommy says in prison and what prison guards say they have the halal wing all the foods halal they have places that they can go together just like a premier room for all the ex-jihadists it is already segregated in in a number of ways like the piranha gang so there's this piranha gang that tried to take on radical islam in prison and all they've done is just shut down that gang by putting all of them on segregation in total isolation so it's very difficult and it's very complex and this is why I see people like Steve Laws gaining more traction which worries the shit out of me.

1:33:19Even like if I look at my children's friends, a lot of them are non-white and a lot of them are great little kids. They're going to grow up going to be really good little British kids with decent morals and values. I don't think that we need to start getting rid of people of colour. That's just not my view. That's not the view of Summer Robinson. I see what it's growing. And we're back. Streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me. Let's draw something loose. I like that. The Certified Fresh Series Returns. Your boss. You always like this or is this just an act?

1:33:51Oh no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

1:34:30Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. Yeah. Have you got a solution, though, that will prevent the white British indigenous citizen of being replaced? Because if the trajectory keeps on going the way it does, there is a strong possibility, if not probability, that eventually we will be replaced in our own country. Have you got a solution to that? Maybe there should be, should there be a cap? What's the answer to that one? So Anjem says that, and that's going to happen. So if you look at the rate that especially the Islamic population are breeding compared to white British populations or black African populations or whatever, then whether it's now or in 50 years or 100 years or 200 years, Islam in particular is going to be prevalent in this country.

1:35:24How can it not be? We live in a democracy. And this is what Anjem even said. Anjem said to me, look at your passport agency. He was like, go and get a passport, Mike. All Muslims. Look at your local council, all Muslims. So he knew that councils, the passport office, the police, everyone was being taken over by Muslims. That's what Anjum said to him. That's not my view. That's what Anjum Chowdhury is telling you. So when you look at what Anjum Chowdhury says, Muhammad Hijab, Ali Dawa, they're not lying to you. They're telling you that that's what's going to happen. They're telling you that you will be forced to convert or die because what you're saying is what's going to happen.

1:36:00How can it not happen? Now, I can say, for me, it's about structure and framework. If we had solid law enforcement, then we wouldn't have many of the issues that we have now. But really, people knew that they could do whatever they wanted and get away with it. And that's a lot of the problem that we have. Now, look at what happened in Lebanon. No country has ever survived being over 30 % Islamic. So the biggest threat to this country is that what happens in Lebanon will happen again. Now, what happened in Lebanon was, Bridget Gabriel talks about this a lot, you get a couple of Islamic extremists which are had here stationed on each roundabout each road junction everywhere in the country it doesn't take many people to do that if you look at those numbers that Trevor Phillips found again nothing I'm telling you is me this is what other people are finding out it's what Trevor Phillips is finding out 25 to 30 % of Muslims want Sharia law so they'll support the pursuit of Sharia simple as that now look how many people that is in the UK 1.3, 1.4 million, about 30 % Now, all you need is a couple of armed people with swords or AKs, whatever it is.

1:37:02And like I said, we know that they've already got access to arms anyway. Stick them on a junction of each road, stick them on the roundabout, etc., and impose a curfew. That's all it takes. That's what happened in Lebanon. And they say, if you leave your house as a non-Muslim after this time, you convert or die. Convert, flee, or die. That's it. What you'll see is, bang, people convert overnight. That's what happened in Lebanon. That's what happened in a lot of the Middle East. That's how Islam swept across so much. That's the biggest threat that we face, because how long is it going to be until we're at 30 %?

1:37:35Do I have a solution to that? No, obviously it needs to be stopped, but that needs to be stopped by understanding our culture and our values and Judeo-Christian values. If you look at people that fought during World War II, they didn't fight to become an Islamic country or to become influenced by other cultures. They fought for our culture, and that's not a crime to say that. We should be totally aware of our culture, and that's what we're seeing eroded and that's what's causing the problem. And Tom Robinson's warned about this for a long time and he's said, this is what's going to happen. And now, obviously, people are opening their eyes to it.

1:38:06Then what you find is you get people like Steve Lewis that's just okay to deport a lot of them, never going to happen, so that's not a solution either. It's a problem. There is no easy solution. Yeah, I think as much as there's points that I disagree with the real right, sort of fanatical lunatics, is that maybe they do need to be heard a little bit more so it shifts the Overton window slightly further. So maybe there is a good purpose for them. Just playing devil's advocate. But I have fell into the trap of digging, digging, digging into the journey that you've been telling me, which then is going to lead me on to my final question, which you and the audience probably won't think is my final question.

1:38:48But before I do ask Mike the final question, jump in the comments let me know your thoughts there's a whole load of controversy we've discussed there I'm going to put my social media links in the description like and subscribe to this channel so I can keep having these conversations you know you can never hear these chats on the BBC, ITV or Sky News and every like, comment, share that's playing your part in supporting the channel so I can continue my pursuit for truth and information that isn't going to be shared out in the main domain so my final question to you is going to be will you come on for a part two down the line and we just do it based on your hacking career?

1:39:24Because you're sat out there with a McLaren. You've done very, very well in life. And I'd like to go through just the hacking aspect. And I know there'll be people very intrigued by that. 100%. Yeah, so look, what I would say is that - Give me a little teaser of what to expect part two. So as much as I talk about these subjects, these are subjects I was exposed to. And like I said, I've been on a journey. And even though some people will think that sounds fucking mental, that I liked Anjum Chowdhury, that's the journey that I've been on. But if you ask me about my identity, My identity is as a hacker.

1:39:51I've had a computer since I was a kid. That's what I've grown up in. That's been a constant in my life. So even with this, yeah, it's a subject that I know well. It's a subject that I've spent a lot of time researching with Tommy, with Angem, both sides of a very different coin. I don't wake up every day thinking, how am I going to take on radical Islam? Tommy's journey is his journey. My journey has always been hacking and business. And I'm very lucky that I've built a big business, very big business. And that's my identity as well. But your hacking journey is insane with the police, MI6, counter-terrorism.

1:40:25I'm going to leave it there. That's the cliffhanger. I've enjoyed this insane conversation. I look forward to part two even more because I'm very interested. And that's so out of my comfort zone and my domain, it will blow my mind again. So thank you for that. The audience have got a good 90 minutes of conversation there that they'll never hear anywhere else. And we've got part two to look forward to. So I appreciate you coming. You've driven a long way to come here. We thought we was going to get it all wrapped up in one. I'm excited for part two. You'll be there? 100%. Thanks for having me. I look forward to that.

1:40:58Pleasure. Cheers, brother. Thank you, mate.

1:41:05This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans. Do you hear that? That sound, right? That means that summer's officially here. It means that grown adults just sprint into the street for a frozen dessert shaped like a cartoon.

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