Andrew Gold Interviews Liam Tuffs - Heretics Podcast Special

26:46I didn't really do normal things that children would do. I was back and forth from jail fighting in the waiting room area. But he took me on his honeymoon. I was his best man. I was about, let's say, between eight and ten. I'm his best man at his wedding. I'm doing a speech. I'm on the dance floor gyrating my hips. I was like a little man. Would probably look funny if you were there, but looking back, I can see how it would break my mum's heart. It's like you're too young to be using body language like that. So I'm on his honeymoon with his second wife, and we're in the pool, and there's other people in the pool.

27:26This is why I sent you the photographs as well, because people like him will always say the accusations are lies. Always. So I like to bring receipts. I will not be called a liar by anyone. It's the one thing I don't do. I'm accountable. If I make a mistake, I put my hands up. And if I say something happened, it happened. So what he's done is you've seen the pull. This is where the water level is. So we're both on our backs. Now he's got his speedos pulled down by his ankles, certainly below the knee. and so have I. And we've had to force, you know, you try laying on your back and float in the water.

28:03You're forcing yourself up to the point where our genitals are exposed in plain sight, both of us naked, while somebody else is taking a picture. And there's several pictures, not just one. So why on earth is his wife taking a picture of me with my willy out when I'm eight, nine or ten. And why do you think I'm doing that? Monkey see, monkey do. You know it wasn't me encouraging him to do that. He, as a father, as a fully grown man, is encouraging his child to expose his penis for someone to take pictures of. Do you think the wife is thinking like, oh, it's just a bit of fun. She hasn't thought it through.

28:43I think the wife was also groomed and you have to be in a room with him to really understand him. He's very unique. He's very different. I've never met a human being like him. And anyone that's ever met him will concur. He's like nobody you'll ever see or meet in your life. He should be in Broadmoor. He should be sectioned. He's an utter lunatic. But I think she was either too scared, desensitised, groomed under his hideous spell. How far did he take things with you? Not as far as he would like to tell people that I made it out. So the 18-year sentence that he received, I think 18 months of it was for me.

29:26Child cruelty exposing himself to me with the erection and playing with his cock in front of me. Long and short of it was... It was tongue kissing, was it? Well, he got not guilty for that. So, yeah, sucking my tongue. How ridiculous. All these things are proven, oh, but not that specific thing. And I'll tell you what he'd done in court. So, yeah, sorry. When it comes to him and detail, when you've been attacked, when you've been a victim of narcissistic abuse, and I don't like to use the word victim, but when you've gone up against somebody who has got NPD and they machine gun you, boom, boom, boom, and they trick you, and they use word salad, and they mind fuck you, and they trick you, they rewire your brain.

30:05So you can very easily get discombobulated when you're trying to return thoughts that happened all them years ago that you've suppressed and put in a little box. So, Charles Crawley exposing himself to me and something else, but then the bulk of it was for the multiple rates and the ABHs and the intimidation to the other girls. Yeah, but sucking my tongue. So he used to suck my tongue. And I said that, you know, he used to suck my tongue until it hurt. And that starts by him initiating a kiss, then a tongue. Then I'm a young kid. I think that's normal. I return fire. I put my tongue in his mouth.

30:41And then when I did, he sucked it to the point of extreme pain. And that was another thing, another accusation I made, which obviously did happen. And when he got, I think he got, I don't know. Let's just say he got 17 guilties. Don't quote me on the figures, but I'm just rounding it up or down. Can't remember. 17 guilties, three not guilties, because they couldn't prove it beyond reasonable doubt. One of them was for sucking my tongue. He got a not guilty for that. So when he's in the dock and he's received his 18 years, and might I add, it was actually 39 years, but where you get your terms concurrent and they consolidate, the final sentence was 18 years.

31:24So he's standing in the dock. He's got 18 years. He's got unanimous guilties for multiple rights, for child abuse, for sexual abuse against me. And where he got the not guilty for the tongue sucking, He's looked at the viewing gallery, at the jury, at the judge. He went, see, everyone's going to know he was lying now. Oh, my God. So in his tiny mind, and this is the whole thing of a narc. You have a million people disagree. One person agrees. There you go. See, ask her. She'll tell you. Yeah. Mad man. Mad.

32:00How are you? How are you, Liam? In what sense? today in general, as it calls me, damage. Yeah. It's made me... It's made me sceptical of people. I don't trust many people. I still love many, and I still give people the benefit of the doubt. It's made me stronger, believe it or not. I can talk about it quite flippantly. I do tap into anger when I talk about it. Is that to avoid emotion, sort of sadness? No, no, no. I lean into sadness. I've got no problem. If you were to say something that would take me somewhere that made me cry, I wouldn't try and fight it. Okay. I just, no. And that is what I've had to do.

32:44I've learned over the years that you suppress any kind of emotion, it will manifest, it will grow, and then it eats you. So if I'm sad, I'll cry. If I find something funny, which is 90 % of the time, I'll laugh. And if I find something infuriating and angry, there you go. It's there. So I'm okay. It's put me in a good position to help other people. Same as anybody, you have good days, bad days, but that's got nothing to do with that. I wouldn't have thought it's the pressures of the world. But I think it's made me very, very stoic because I refuse to be beat. I refuse that animal to affect my life, my growth, my development, and be the person I can to support other people.

33:22He will not ruin my life. So I would say it's made me bigger, better, stronger. And that may sound mad to people, but it's a gift because that bat and a strength, when I see someone that needs it, I pass it to them. That's for you from me. You've got this. That's beautiful, I think. And I've become friendly with you over the last few months. And my God, you know, I see that every day, what personality you have and how strong you are and how much you do think of others. So I think that is wonderful. How do you remember the point where this sort of crossed over in your mind? I mean, you must have been very relatively young.

33:55Or when was this? From being, you know, okay, he's made me feel a bit weird in bed. He's made me feel a bit weird doing this and that. To, oh, there's something wrong with my dad. Oh, blimey. You kind of always knew there was something wrong with him, but not in the perverse sense. He's always been very, very violent, very domineering, very controlling. I mean, he was a powerhouse of a character. I hate to give him any credit at all, but he was on one of the first reality TV programmes I think the UK's ever seen. It was on TVS. It was called Survivor. Annabelle Croft was on there. Put in Google, he was accused of molesting her too.

34:38Guess what? Another liar. She lied. Somebody from Brookside was on there. So I always knew he was different. Annabelle, she lied about him molesting her. She didn't lie, sorry. He accused her of lying. Oh, he said she lied. Yeah, sorry. So another accusation towards my biological father, the sperm donor, and they're a liar. Everyone, my dad's never wrong, but any narcissist, they'll be the hero, they'll be the victim, but they'll never ever admit to being the villain. Absolutely. So yes, so you always knew something was a bit wrong. And then I guess it's that coming to terms with, I've been abused by my dad.

35:18Was that a gradual thing that wasn't such a moment? No, there was a pivotal moment where the photographs I sent you, I mean, my dad would always attack me. I would always be under some kind of barrage of abuse, belittling, even into my adult years. I mean, got to a stage where I would tell him, you're not talking to a child no more. I'll put you in the ground. And I would talk to him like that. It's like, you carry on the way you're going, the way you've always been, I'm going to hurt you. Like, you can't bully me anymore. You can't manipulate me anymore. You can't mind fuck me. I've learned. I've progressed in my mind.

36:01I know all the signs. Plus, he's achieved absolutely zero in his whole life. So I didn't have a great deal of respect for him as I got older. But those pictures I brought down from the loft and my current girlfriend at the time, I'm bringing out these pictures and I've looked at these pictures of me naked with my dad exposing myself. And you see there was a few, there's other ones, we're pulling our pants down from behind. And I'm looking at them and my girlfriend at the time, she said, you do know that's abuse. You do know that's wrong. And I said, I've never really thought about it because it's always been, that's a laugh and a joke.

36:37There's nothing to it. And I didn't know any different. I didn't know any different. And she said, yeah, that's abuse. So that was kind of the first, that was the first eureka moment with the sexual abuse. But the worst for me was the abuse years before that, because that was when I was well into my, into my 30s, maybe when I got them pictures out. And he'd already done a number of, you know, a catalogue of despicable things to his, my son's 18. I mean, I don't even like swearing around him. I was either 14 or 15, and this is one of his little get out of jail clauses. And if I get a month wrong, you're lying.

37:21So let's just say I was 15. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm 15 years of age and I'm going around his house because he's back out of prison. It was very novel. And I'm taking my friends around there because he treated us all like adults. I mean, trying to get out of this one was very difficult because there was about 12 witnesses. I used to take all my friends around his house, children, 15 years of age, smoking dope with him, taking these DF-118s, Tamazipan, prescription drugs that maybe your audience would never even heard of because some of them are heroin substitutes. There you go.

37:52There's a smack substitute, you're 15 years of age. But he got me on acid. So he introduced me to all of these drugs and he done them with me. And acid is, I mean, anyone watching this that's considering dabbling with acid because I know psychedelics are coming back. Please don't do that. Because if you have one bad turn on there, you're never coming back. It will completely wreck your central nervous system and you could spend the rest of your life walking around quite literally a nervous wreck or in a psychiatric ward with psychosis. That Pink Floyd fellow, one of the Pink Floyd guys had that.

38:24He sort of never came back from it. Which one was that? He was right at the beginning. It was the first album. I can't remember his name. Someone will put it in the comments. Yeah. And that comes with no surprise. I mean, I know how deadly LSD acid is. So he would ply me with acid. We'd have these outrageous acid parties. You get to a stage, when it starts going south and things become a bit dark and you're losing control of your complete mind, I mean, you lose the grip of your mind. It's very, very frightening. It's terrifying. It's the most horrendous ordeal I've ever gone through in my life.

38:55I mean, petrified. You think of how... There must be one time in your life that you can remember that you were so scared you couldn't even move, think or breathe. Well, yeah, I did acid and that's what happened. So you've done acid? Yeah, on an island somewhere. I was at night on my own. Don't know what I was thinking. Stupidest thing I've ever done. I wish I asked you about that when you was on mine. We'll talk about that later. Yeah. Okay, well, this is, again, I'm so glad that you understand the magnitude of when a trip goes wrong, you are paralysed with fear. And when he saw me scared with my friends in the room, he'd then switch on me.

39:30What did you say? What did you fucking say? You said something. What did you fucking say? and he'd come in my face and he'd shout louder and louder and get closer and closer until I can't move. I'm stiff with fear. I just want to die. I want the world to swallow me up and it just, this has to end. And then when he got me to breaking point, I'd say, do that. Ah, your mug, got you, didn't I? And then he'd look at my mates and go, ah, do you see him fucking shit himself? It's like, you evil maniac, evil maniac. It's part of you still love him. Yes, sadly. How do you deal with that? I just do. I just accept it.

40:06I just accept the fact that it's very difficult to fall out of love with somebody. Love is such a powerful emotion. And where he was such a powerful character and I loved him and he was my hero and I idolised him, it's, you'll always have a little bit of that in you. But it was when I was being cross-examined in the court. And for some strange reason, I think, well, my dad was directing his brief because in the end he sacked him. And the only other person you know that's been sacked during a serious trial and then represented themselves was Ted Bundy. Oh, right. That's the kind of person my old man is.

40:43But when they cross-examined me, they tried to insinuate that I didn't love my dad, I hated him, and this was a hate campaign. And I said, you've got that all wrong. And my dad's there. I'm here in the dock. They wanted to put a witness screen. I said, no, no, no, I have to look him in the eye. Have to look him in the eye. And I looked at him, and then I looked at his brief. And I said, I still love him. I cannot help but love him. I used to get butterflies when I'd hear his voice on the answer machine, on the phone. There's something about him ingrained in me. If I love someone, I have a tendency to love him forever.

41:17I said, but what he's done is despicable and I cannot let that go. And he has to go to jail. If it was just me he'd done things to, if it was just me that he'd done insidious things to, then maybe I could have wiped my mouth and put it behind me and pretend it never happened and try and make sense of it. As soon as I found out that he'd done the unthinkable to other people, children, innocent girls that had a tough enough upbringing as it is, because there was a third person that I've never met and I can't remember her name. And that suits me. The less I know, the better, really. Sort of, I've got enough on my shoulder to deal with that whole thing because he's due out in a year and a half.

41:58Maybe less than that. He'll be out soon. Shits. But yeah, I said I love him, but he's got to go to jail. And it's as simple as that because he's also destroyed. Because when I went down to Rabbit Ave, I found out who my dad was when this all had come to fruition. I didn't really know him. He's an actor. It's a facade. He's a narc. Mask on, mask off. I saw the version he wanted me to see until other people started telling me things about him, what he'd done. And then I was like a detective. Okay. And I don't believe everything someone tells me the first time. Like, I need to know. If I'm going to take my dad to court and testify against my own father, I need to know.

42:37And I know. He raped a young girl, and for that I took it all away. And as much as I love him, I hate him with equal measures, but he had to go to jail, and I had to play my part. And do you know what? I've done a lot of good stuff in my life. it's not been easy and I've achieved some good things considering the odds were stacked against me that is to date my biggest achievement because he's destroyed so many lives and I put an end to that at least for nine years because he'll only serve nine out of the 18 so for me I like building people up I like helping people I feel morally obligated to do that and by knowing that I've put that animal in a cage for such a long time and it gives people some breathing space to be free from what he's capable of doing.

43:24I mean, I could, I could tell you a list, a list of things he's done that will blow your mind. The, the, the most outrageous things, lies. He self-projects. He accuses people of what he's guilty of. I'll give you one example because I know we like to move these along, but he wasn't invited to his friend's wedding. Rightly so, because he would think it was his wedding. He didn't get the invite. Once he found out he didn't get the invite, he started telling everybody that he was a rapist, that he was a nonce. This is a straight laced guy with a normal job that's never done anything wrong in his life.

44:01I know exactly who he is. I speak to him now. It's like, what are you doing? I can see what you're doing. You're bitter and twisted that you got rejected. That's the narcissistic scar. He didn't get his supply for once of this person. It's like, shit, he's wounded. So he then makes up lies and he slanders and he targets and he tells the world. He goes around telling individual people, lies about people. He's done it to so many people, but the things that he's guilty of himself, narcissists self-projects also. When you were looking at him and you made sure to look at him in court and you said you love him, was he looking back at you?

44:39Was he looking at you in the eyes? Yes. Yeah. What do you think he's thinking or feeling? Well, he's such a mentalist. I wouldn't be surprised if part of him was thinking, that's my boy. And the other half of me or the other half of him will be thinking, I'm going to kill him when I get out. In court, he told me he was going to slit my throat. I got asked to leave temporarily because I reacted to him. He's in the dock, viewing gallery full of people. All there to see. telling me it's going to slit my throat. So I reacted to that. They asked me to leave. They obviously, they knew that, you know, my emotions were running high as they would be.

45:19Then I was allowed back in. And, you know, because he's protested his innocence like he's always done. It's not the first time he's protested his innocence, even when he's got a stint. He got eight years on another opiate deal with Joey Pyle Jr., another big face in the underworld. They're very different people. Joe Pohl's a very respected individual. My old man is shit on everyone's shoe. But when my old man was on remand for, I think it was a million pounds worth of opium, it wasn't even conspiracy. It was intent to supply. He swore blind. It's a fit up. I didn't do it. I'm innocent. He said to me in a prison visiting room, I swear on your life, may you drop down dead with cancer.

46:07I didn't do it. I'm innocent. They've set me up. He got found guilty. The first jury were nobbled. Retrial, he got found unanimously guilty because there was undercover surveillance. It was all on camera. And then a few months later, he appeared on the TV. There he is with two bin liners of opium from one boot into another boot. You wish me dead of cancer if you hadn't have done that. And you did do it. So he's got no limits. He's got no morals to him either. Jesus animal imagine wishing cancer on your son I don't know I just yeah it's just bonkers unimaginable I'm trying to sort of in my head understand how you came to be how you are and having come from him are there moments and we all have those moments a little bit you catch yourself in the mirror and you see a bit of oh that's the face my dad makes or my brother makes or something do you see any of him deep down inside you not the you know those horrible stuff I know exactly what you mean and the answer to that That is yes.

47:10Now, when I put on weight, I look in the mirror, I think, you actually look like your old man. And you cannot be fat and bald. You look like a stereotypical PDF file. So when I see myself gain a bit of weight with no hair, I think that's got to go. Keto. But a more serious answer to your question is, yes, I have a lot of traits my dad has. We have both got the power of persuasion. he uses his power of persuasion very differently to me he uses his power of persuasion to break people because he gets his strength from your weakness he grows from your demise if you're sad if you're sitting in misery and he's made sure you're there he grows it's a animal me i use my power of persuasion to build people up because i don't like to see people sad I can see sadness in somebody's eye in a calf and I can feel their sadness.

48:08So we use exactly the same technique. But he chooses to crush people and I choose to build people up. Makes him a scumbag. He's got the ability to really make a difference in the world. He has for the worst, but what a shit set of skills to be blessed with only to use them to wreck people's lives. Do you think he's a psychopath? Yes. So feels no empathy for people? Oh, he's void of any kind of remorse, empathy. The more pain he sees in your eyes, the more his glow is horrible. So I wonder if you inherited your empathy from your mum. Now, my mum and my nan deserve, because people might be thinking, well, where the hell is his mum and his nan?

48:47My dad done the damage from the little time that I spent with him. And this is why I'm hell bent on pointing out injustice and supporting people and bolstering them when they need it because my nan was very much a nurturer. And my mum is a beautiful human being. I mean, I love her more than my mind can comprehend. My mum and my nan are my heroes, which is why I don't like all these crimes. I don't like the possibility that women could be in danger because I know the strength of a woman. They made me. I wasn't raised by a man. I become a man through being raised by women. And it's because of them.

49:23It's the kindness that I saw in them that obviously, my dad infected me. They passed their graciousness and their love onto me. And luckily, you know, and I think at the moment in the world, there's a balance of good versus evil and good wins. Good one. It did with me. Who are the, I mean, most people know, but who are the Crays for some who don't know? Blimey, the Crays. So Reg and Ron Cray, they were twin brothers who used to, run the underworld of the East End of London back in the 60s. They consequently went on to murder. Reg murdered Jack the Hat McVitie and Ron murdered George Cornell. Reg murdered Jack the Hat in a basement, stabbed him multiple times in the eye, ended his life, and Ron went into a pub and shot Cornell dead in the head.

50:21If you've not seen the film The Craze, I would say with the Kemp brothers, that's probably the best film to watch to get an idea of the craze if you don't know who they are. See, I watched it in preparation of talking to you just because I wanted to, not that it was going to be a big subject, I wanted to have a look and all that. You know what, it got such good reviews, but I feel like it's a bit dated now, you know, because I told you there's all these bits where they talk because they're twins, they talk at the same time. And I thought, ah, come on, that wasn't happening. You know? I mean, I was too young to know them.

50:52I was born 1980. So the only time I've ever met Reg is when I was a kid and my dad would take me to visit him in Parkhurst and I'd smuggle him in a bottle of brandy or a bottle of whiskey because you didn't get searched back then. You could get away with a lot more in jails than you can now. So I can't really comment on that, but I do know that they did have, I mean, I've heard audio tapes of Reg talking for hours and hours and hours about Francis, his wife, who ended up killing herself. she was on all sorts of downers and Reg was an overbearing man as you could imagine but they definitely did have a weird relationship it's said that Ron was in love with Reg he was very jealous of Francis as far as I know but I don't want to talk like I'm a walking authority on the craze because I mean I've heard these oh I mean I did hear I did hear these stories from Reg's mouth on an audio tape and I've heard my dad's version from Reg but then again my dad's a pathological liar.

51:45So I kind of question everything, but I think there's enough information out there on the craze for people to make their own mind up. Some people think they're heroes, national treasures. Some people think they're psychotic animals that got all they deserved and they spent all of their life in jail. They never got released. They died there. Was your dad involved with them? Very much so. Not in their heyday when they run the clubs and had the protection racket. it was when my dad went to jail for the first time, he bunked up with Reg Cray and they become inseparable, very close, openly said they loved each other.

52:20The son reported that they were gay lovers. They managed to sue the son for that. They managed to sue the son for that because there was no evidence to say that they were gay. And the next question will probably be, do you think that they were gay? I don't know. I'd love to say they were because it would just get my dad's goat. But the truth of the matter is, I'll never know. But I do think Reg Cray was in love with my dad. He was this young, you know, pretty blue hair, blue eyes, blonde hair, singing. You know, he was a showman man as well. You know, he could have gone on to act, sing, dance, you name it.

53:00He could do it all. But his narcissistic tendencies got the better of him. Reg would introduce him to people like Roger Daltrey, Jules Holland, UB40. And my dad thought he was bigger than them all. He told Roger Daltrey to have some respect. Yeah. The Who Presents were, see the film that you watched? Yeah. I think it was Polygram that done it in the end. Could be wrong. Don't quote me on that. We're talking a long time ago, but what I do know is, because I met Roger Daltrey and all of them people that I said that my dad burnt his bridges with, the Who Presents were going to do the crazed film.

53:31It was because of my dad's influence. They pulled the plug and said, fucking can't work with this maniac. He told Roger Daltrey on the phone, have some respect. Who do you think you're talking to? The lead singer of The Who, some Mickey Mouse arm robber, telling Roger Daltrey to have some respect. Perspective, Pete. They used to chuck TVs out of windows, didn't they? Keith Moon was legendary for that. Yeah. I think he drove a Rolls Royce into a pool, didn't he? Or was that Ozzy Osbourne? I don't know. It's all of them, wasn't it? They're pretty wild. All of them. They're all biting chicken heads off, aren't they?

53:59Yeah, good old days. Oh, yeah. Bat. Yeah, a bat. Ozzy, he bit a bat's head off. Imagine doing that. Only in China. Yeah. What would you say to young Liam now if you could talk to him? If I could speak to me, well, maybe if my son's watching, I'll say this to him, what I'd say to me, keep going. Nothing lasts forever. If you're in a bad spot, it will pass. Rainy days pass. The sun soon shines through the clouds. Be a good son. Be a good dad. Be a good friend. Be a loyal friend. Be a man. Be accountable. Don't shy away from stuff. Look after people that need looking after. Make sure you don't let anyone get bullied in your company and be honest.

54:45And then you're a man, my son. You say he's out in a year. Are you worried about that? Is he going to try and get back in your life? He won't try and get back in my life. He'll try and sabotage my life because he's a creature of habit and that's what he's done his whole life. Anything I've achieved, he's tried to, well, to piss on. He's tried to ruin it and destroy it. He's a very jealous, bitter, envious man as well. again me and him are very very different in that respect if I look at someone that's doing tremendously well I want them to keep doing well I want them to keep doing better I don't you know like a lot of people they're happy you're doing well just as long as you're behind them yeah for me when I get my friends tell me I've just done this deal or I've just got this promotion or I'm building this business and they zoom past me I'm like keep going keep going I'm all for that my dad doesn't like anybody doing well so he'll try and sabotage whatever I'm doing I mean the little bit of credibility he did have before he went in jail is completely gone so he's going to struggle there's a chance he's going to come out and kill me I believe he's capable of that and I think it would be his ultimate I told you I was set up and I'm so angry about it I killed my own son I wouldn't put that past him but I'm not scared I'm not worried if it's my time It's my time.

56:01And this isn't like podcast bravado. I say it to my girlfriend quite often. I'm ready. And it's not because I'm an unhappy person. I've had the best life I could possibly imagine. I couldn't have asked for a better life. You'd be leaving your son behind. That's true. And your missus. I wouldn't want to leave anybody behind. But I'm ready. I mean, I put my head above the parapet on a lot of things. I do say and do things that could potentially put me in great danger. and if it's part of my tapestry and it happens, it happens, I've done a great deed by putting him away and that is not some heroic ending to this interview either.

56:35I just mean it. If he comes for me, he better do a thorough job because this time I won't be so kind. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+. What are you waiting for? Hop on. The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+. This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I like this kid. Always wear your seatbelt. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu, now streaming on Disney+. Read PG-13. At ZocDoc, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor.

57:26Sorry, that doctor's not a network. Press 1 for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours. The next availability is in three months. But ZocDoc makes finding the right doctor easy. Download the app and search by specialty, insurance, and availability. Read real patient reviews, then book instantly. ZocDoc, ready to be seen? I've got one more question for you, but where can people find your work? My actual work, I suppose, is my YouTube channel, The Dozen with Liam Tufts. I interview interesting people like Andrew, and it's a lovely time for me to get out of my head and learn from other people.

58:05And we get some very controversial guests on there. I mean, I'm on all the other ones, ex-Instagram face, but really, if you want to see my work, what I'm doing, my passion project where I give back, I consider my channel as me giving back. This is for you, is YouTube. at Liam Tufts. It's such a good channel, the Dozen. It's so good. And I don't often say that, but it's really good. Many similar guests, a lot of the same guests we've had. So people who like this channel will definitely like yours. And it's just some fascinating interviews. There's that imam you interviewed the other day. What a brilliant conversation.

58:41And the fact that you don't just always say the things people expect you to say, you're very thoughtful. So I hope people will go and check that out. We'll have a link down below. Who's a heretic you admire? It's got to be Tommy. It's got to be Tommy because he's relentless in his pursuit and he's relentless in his pursuit to fight for the forgotten people, irrespective of the persecution that he comes under. He's prepared to sacrifice his liberty. I know him personally. So I know the lies and the slander and the nonsense that's reported about him. I know that he's a selfless human being and he loses sleep when he sees others suffer.

59:16Because I know that firsthand, because he's current, because he's in the here and now, he is my favourite heretic and the country needs him. I forgot to ask because you were just out for lunch with him and got kicked out of a restaurant and that became huge national news. What went on? It was sad, disappointing. And that was my takeaway from that. So Tommy's come out of court. He didn't have security that day. I don't think he considered the fact that there would be an army of press there just mauling him. So I slipped into security mode, shouldered him. Once the press finished interviewing him, or once he finished interviewing the press, should I say, we made our way to a cab.

1:00:06There was five of us in there. We tried to go to a pub, first of all, which is near Westminster. That was closed, back in the cab. Where were we going to eat? Steak. Okay, Hawksmoor's up here on the right. Like, I'd never been there. We've gone in there. Nice, polite, great service. You know, we're not knuckle-dragging, football-ooligan menaces to society. We're just nice people with children that want to make a bit of a change and protect ours and other people's children. And I'm putting that in there because eventually he was asked to leave and I can only assume it's because of Tommy's activism, journalism, political stance.

1:00:48but they took us upstairs for people that know Hawksmoor. We walked through right to the back. It was before midday, so not many people will have steak for late breakfast. So we've gone back, we've sat down, we had two waiters serving us. They were great. They were friendly. We had a laugh. We had a joke. They took pictures. They wanted pictures. They had a chat. We had a round of drinks, soft drinks. We then had our starters and I was absolutely ravenous. I couldn't wait to have the steak. I think we was all on the same page. You know, we had a big adrenaline dump from fighting through the crowds, looking forward to the stake.

1:01:23And we're mild-mannered. We're quiet. We had a laptop open. We was doing work while we were in there. And I think people think that if you're on YouTube, you don't do a great deal other than sit here chatting. It's like, core, if only you knew. It's a 24-7 job. So we're in there. We're sort of in work mode discussing, you know, where do you go from here, Tom? You still got the establishment gunning for you. I mean, these trumped up charges are absolutely ridiculous. Anyway, the manager has come over and he said, I'm going to have to ask you all to leave. His words were to the tune of, you're making a member of our staff or our staff feel uncomfortable.

1:02:06Now, immediately, I'm always thinking of my surroundings. I'm like, there's five blokes here. it doesn't require five spokespeople. So obviously we can sense it's obviously Tommy's presence that he's concerned with. But we're curious as to know, well, who's made the complaint? Because everyone that we've seen and spoke to thoroughly enjoyed our company. I mean, we're nice people. We was having a laugh, so was they. So Tommy's asked him a few questions. You know, why? Okay, well, can you explain how we're making them feel uncomfortable? What about our comfort? But what about if us feeling someone in the kitchen uncomfortable makes all five of us uncomfortable?

1:02:48Does that mean that we stay and they go? Like, how does this work? This is discrimination. So we all got up very peacefully, quietly, walked out. Again, there's five of us. As we're walking out, you've got people eating their dinner, giving us a week, giving us another. They recognised. And let me tell you, out of those five people that were there, one of them you'll never see because he's behind the scenes filming, as is the other one. So the three people that are in the public eye, one of them's a regular people hunter. I've put my own dad in jail for pedophilia and Tommy's exposed thousands.

1:03:23So to me, I think we've done God's work and this is how we get treated in the capital of our own country. So I've stood back and I thought, I made a mental note. I thought I'm going to come back by myself or with my partner. So I come in peace. Now that I do this sort of thing, I've kind of got a bit of a journalistic mind. I want to know the whys. I don't want to come back to support your business. I think what you've done is foul. But I respect the fact, your house, your rules, which is why I'm leaving. But I don't agree with it. I don't condone it. I think you're ludicrous in what you're doing.

1:03:55But Tommy's had a little chat and it's been recorded and I didn't know what was said until yesterday. So you can watch that on Tommy's YouTube channel. They had a chat and I thought the manager that was speaking to Tommy was very smug and he seemed like he quite enjoyed declining our custom. So we left with no issues and that was that. And then Tommy posted it and our friend Gurumit posted it. It's had about 12 million views. There's going to be a boycott Hawksmore campaign that Tommy's putting together. All he wants is the CEO, because it turns out the CEO's mother is a Daily Mail reporter and it's the Daily Mail that are taking Tommy to court.

1:04:39So it could be coincidence. I mean, it's kind of a battle now that I'm not involved in. But if you're Tommy and you keep getting situations where you're being asked to leave places for no reason, you're going to be sick of it. And I think we're all sick of it. We're sick of cancel culture. We're sick of DEI, woke establishments. We're sick of the snobbery, the culture, the snobbery within our society and political snobbery. We could go down another route there, but we won't. But that's that story in a nutshell. And I just want to end this. Like, thank you for having me on. I'm a big fan of yours and your work and your show.

1:05:21I love it equally as you do mine. And I'm sorry you didn't get a more chirpy side of me. Well, it's not chirpy topics, is it? It's not a chirpy topic. And I knew where it was going to go. And I'm more than happy to do it. Like I say, if I can save a life or save someone's mental health and spiralling. I hope it's resonated with people. Me too. That lunch thing, I think it's mad because you're right, a private establishment can do what they want. But I tell you what, if I owned a cafe, bar, whatever, Owen Jones or Keir Starmer or any of these people who I disagree fundamentally with or some imam who's preaching, I don't care.

1:05:56If you're coming in quietly and having some lunch or dinner, hey, Mr. Starmer, what would you like to eat? That's it. and that's what humankind should be. That's what I think. Well, I agree. And we're now sick of it. We're sick of it. People, if you're sick of it, go and follow Keir Starmer. Don't follow him. Whatever you do. Oh, my God. You're not the Prime Minister. Yeah. That would be a good turn. People go and follow Liam Tufts, the Dozen. He's got all sorts of social media accounts. We'll put links down below. Go and follow him. He's brilliant. He's brilliant. He's given so much of himself.

1:06:36Go write some comments. Say you found this channel from me. Hit that like button. Keep watching this channel. So, what did you think of that? What did you make of that? Some of you will know that story. Some of you won't. It's brutal in parts, but it is what it is and it's made me who I am today. And if you did get this far, please do like and subscribe to my channel wherever you consume your listening material and podcasts from. It does make a hell of a difference. And if you enjoyed Andrew Gold's style on Heretics like I do, What's Not to Like, please also give him a follow on all the platforms that are available to you to get your podcasts.

1:07:18Until the next time, I'll see you soon.

1:07:28I'm not giving up. I am selling the building. The final season of FX is the bear. The restaurant is flooded. Everything's either going to be okay. Or not. We are outgunned and we are outmanned. We have each other. FX's The Bear, the final season. All episodes now streaming on Disney+. At ZocDoc, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. Sorry, that doctor's not a network. Press 1 for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours.

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