Ex-MI6 Agent REVEALS What He Really Saw Inside British Intelligence

27:35But the mistake that happened was where the return flights were going. Instead of going back to the original place where I came in from and then going home, they went into Europe and back to the UK. so somebody obviously put two and two together and got close to fourth and that meant that I was picked up now we're always taught never get into a vehicle um I'm a risk advisor you know I'm a pen pusher I'm not a special forces soldier I'm not trained escape and evasion and when you've got armed people around you, believe me, you're going to get into that vehicle. So I got into the vehicle and various things happened and I got, you'll see there, my fingers were cut when I was sitting in a chair.

28:31That was surgically put back on. I was stabbed to lower stomach. Beat-ins, had a pull cue, inserted up my rectum. um yeah and at that point i think shortly after i'd passed out so i don't remember much else um i remember waking up uh on a helicopter and then i remember being waking up in a hospital in london and the units the specialized units um had actually gotten me out of that situation this episode is brought to you by palm olive family time isn't just the big moments it's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra.

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29:55Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. who are these people that kidnapped you and raped you with a poor cue I don't call it rape because it wasn't you know but sexually assaulted if you like they were let's just say and I'll be careful what I say here but they were convinced that I was not there to do what I was making out I was there to do you know I was there as a special risk insurance broker and I was there to obtain data. Unfortunately, they thought that that data, basically they thought I was a spy.

30:37And Liam, I denied all knowledge of being a spy. And that's really what happened. And I had a stroke of luck because whenever I travel into jobs, I always have a protection officer and a driver, generally speaking, who will take me to different destinations. And what happened was when he, just before I got picked up, when he drops me off, he always just hangs around for a bit and just makes sure things are all right. And he saw the people approach me, saw me get in the car, knew something was wrong, raised the alarm. And who were the people? The people were, they worked for the government of that territory.

31:18But we can't mention the territory. I'm not allowed to. I can tell you off camera, but I'm not allowed to. I mean, that's outrageous what they can do to you. And that's all above board and legal. Well, it's not supposed to be legal. No, they've got clearance to do that. I assume they have clearance to do it in their country. I don't know. I wasn't planning on staying around long enough to find out. But if you look at other countries and stories in the press of similar situations that Western countries, let's be honest about it, have been involved with, where they have created centres where they've detained people.

32:00If you look at some of the interviews where people have claimed, and I'm only saying they've claimed, that they've been tortured by various governments around the world in those detention centres. So I can tell you that I wasn't the only one who had been picked up, you know, on jobs and had a problem. And this is the issue that people don't really understand. And I think, as I said at the very beginning, if an intelligence officer was here, they would probably support me in this comment. They don't take the risk. They recruit agents to take the risk. You will very rarely hear of an employed intelligence officer being harmed because it's the agents they will use to go and get, you know, the information.

32:43How did you recover from that ordeal? It was a long time ago now, but the thing was, because my wife and child had passed away, and here's the thing, when I took that job on, if you had said to me, if they were alive and you said to me, do that job, I wouldn't have done it. But because they'd gone, I thought, to be honest with you, I wasn't that bothered in those days, because they'd passed away not long before, so I wasn't really bothered what jobs I did. So I never really thought about it that much. And then recovery-wise, I think I was out for about six months. And then, and out of my day job as well.

33:18I was doing bits and pieces at that time, but I was out for about six months from memory. And I bounced back. I never really thought of it too much. It just got pushed to the back of the mind. But years later, that and other things came out. I ended up being diagnosed with PTSD. A lot of it, it happened in three areas, really. Some of it was a dude, Rwanda, when I was 20 years of age because I was on political risk there. And it's something that stuck with me for the rest of my life because 800 ,000 people got slaughtered, these are the official figures. My personal viewpoint, and this is just my personal viewpoint on the information I saw, I would estimate it to be around about 1.1 million.

34:00And I won't say on a podcast what they did out there, but those people were slaughtered by machete and gunshot. And some of the things they did were absolutely horrific, you know to children and not a lot of people in the uk knew about that i was 20 years of age when when that when that was going on and we were dealing with political risk at the time so there was that there was a situation in 2001 and obviously prior to that there was my wife passed away and it all just caught up with me later on in life and for whatever reason um liam i kept seeing things i kept seeing bodies i kept seeing decapitated bodies i kept seeing heads everywhere I lived not far from a police station so every time a helicopter went up I thought I was at work and I knew I was having problems I mean, I was a widower for 10 years and then I remarried and to this day I still loved my second wife but she didn't realise what I was carrying and unfortunately, you know, the marriage broke down after 5 years and just before we separated I remember going to the doctors because she goes, you're not right you keep going back to the past and i knew something was wrong i just couldn't quite put my finger on it so i went to the doctors and i had a lovely doctor at the time got on well with her and i sat in the chair and i explained a few things and she goes you've got ptsd and i says right i didn't know much about it i know it's post-traumatic stress disorder but that's all i know and she goes i just need to run a few tests take your blood pressure and you know and she was got the stethoscope and she put it on my chest and you know when somebody's face just drops I looked at her and she put it down she goes what I want you to do is I just want you to sit there and I want you to stay calm she picks up the phone she calls an ambulance now if your doctor's calling an ambulance in her surgery I'm thinking what's going on she goes just stay calm stay calm so I'm staying calm next thing you know she's chasing up the ambulance so I'm thinking obviously something's quite serious here the ambulance turned up and I felt okay and I said look I walked in no no no no no they brought a bed up a flight to stairs you know the the trolley got onto it went onto the ambulance and I just thinking what's going on and then when I got to the hospital I was put in intensive care I couldn't feel anything and it was to do with my heart rate um and at that point they told me a tachycardic um so I was in intensive care uh for about four days I think it was um then I was put on to a ward, then I was put on to, you know, to medication.

36:37So whether it was, you know, sort of mental illness causing my heart to race, I don't know. Was you drinking a lot to self-soothe? Yeah, I was. I mean, after my wife and child died, I mean, I'm very open about becoming an alcoholic. It's not something I hide. But after my wife and child died, we never drank alcohol prior. We never had it in the house. We were just a couple. We were together for 10 years. We were married for 10 years. I got married, believe it or not. I was with my wife from 16. Greta Green. And we lived together, you know, we were very, very close. So when she passed away, I'd never had a history of drinking, but when she passed away and I was on my own, I got into having a few drinks.

37:19And what subsequently happened was it just built up. And I was drinking for a good 15 years, I suppose. And I was still working. But I became an alcoholic, I would say, towards the last sort of five years. And did you go through the 12-step system? No. Or you just cold turkey'd? No. What I did eventually, well, I lost both of my jaws because of alcohol, including, you know, the services. And I lost them both in the same week, funny enough. But after that and a few years later, I realised that I had to stop drinking because I was losing people around me and I wasn't myself. So the only way I could do that was for three years, I basically drank every two and a half months, two and a half months to three months.

38:11And it was just something to look forward to. So I used to put it in my diary and I used to stick to it no matter what. And I did that for three years. And then one day I said enough is enough because I'd had three years of drinking four times a year and that was it. I just completely stopped. Good man. Congratulations on your sobriety. How long has it been? It's been probably about, come up to a year and a half now. Yeah, good man. I mean, if you were doing it four times a year, you may as well just, if it brings you bad memories. But yeah, fair play, because I know it's very, it's very, very difficult.

38:42I mean, for me, it's the worst drug out there. Very, very hard to give up. Really, really damage it. Internally, the withdrawal is horrendous, the rapid eye movement, the hallucinations, the anxiety, the walls breathing. Yeah, scary business. So I tip my hat to you. Thank you. It was one of those things where when you look at my journey with alcohol, I was diagnosed with PTSD and I'll always tell anyone, alcohol doesn't solve PTSD. But at the time I thought it did because you got PTSD, you have a drink, it's gone. Numbs the pain. But the problem is you stop drinking, it comes back. But what I had developed was alcohol-induced psychosis.

39:24So I would drink to get rid of the PTSD, but then I'd get psychosis. So I'd stop drinking and, you know, you then got PTSD. So I was stuck between a rock and a hard place no matter what I did, whether I drank or whether I didn't. So it was a very, very long journey for me to get where I am today. Well, moving on to something a bit more chirpy. what was the most disturbing thing you witnessed or took part in during your MI6 career? I really wouldn't know where to start in terms of, because don't forget, we have to look at the risk in every single war that we've been involved with. So whether that's Afghanistan, whether that's Iraq, you know, whether that's, you know, Bosnia, we have to look at that.

40:06So there's quite some, you know, sort of frightening stats that you have to look at. But in terms of where the services might have done something that I thought, oh, hang on, I'm not sure about that. It was before my time, but I'm aware of some of the history. And it did give me food for thought sometimes. And that was the Arms to Iraq scandal involving both MI5 and MI6. And I think that could have been dealt with much quicker than it was. and the services could have put their hands up much quicker than they did. And that's the bit where I'm a little bit, I'm embarrassed, you know, to say that, you know, because I can't stress enough that, as I said at the beginning, if you saw MI6 and you saw MI5, you'd be proud to be British and something like that.

40:58It puts a stain on it. Yeah, it puts a stain on it. And what it was, was they thought, they asked a UK company to provide intelligence, an individual at that company, to provide intelligence. They did. They asked them to continue to supply the market so they could get the intelligence. But then another division, I think it was HMRC, apologies if it wasn't picked up, that hang on, there's an embargo there, you can't supply goods. So they then prosecuted them. And the case dragged on, they lost their businesses and things like that. Whereas really, perhaps the services could have said, look, it was our fault, it was actually working for us.

41:33And it took 20 years, I think, to resolve it. they did actually pay compensation in the end. But as anybody knows, when the event happens and the compensation comes 20 years later, it's a bitter pill to swallow. So that's the bit where I felt we didn't do ourselves any favours there. In your opinion, how rigged would you say the global system of power is? From my analysis, and again... And from your experience. Yeah, I probably go back to the insurance markets there rather than MITx again. And the reason I say that is because the data I've obtained from those markets, it sort of shows that without a shadow of a doubt, there are global organizations, big organizations that have a lot of power, you know, let's face it.

42:22And if you want to look at data, who's got the data? Big tech. Big tech has got the data. It's just whether they disclose it or not. I know, you know, big tech can tell you what you and me looked at on the internet five minutes ago. You know, what we looked at last night, even though you might be an incognito and you've deleted your search history and they collect the information anonymously, they can track it to every single IMEI number and they can track it back. They're just not allowed to release that information. So without a shadow of a doubt, there's companies out there that have power.

42:59But again, I think it's a misconception to say everybody's looking for this one source that says they control the world and they control the narrative. It isn't quite like that. In my personal opinion, from what I've seen, is that you'll get certain organizations that have a lot of pull because they've got a lot of subsidiaries over the world. So if they want to push a certain narrative, they can push that narrative. And others will do the same. So if you get common ground people or people who push that narrative. So I'm not naive enough to believe that, you know, big industries don't have power.

43:37But I'm not naive enough to believe that there hasn't been questions, shall we say, rather than corruption that we should be asking. But is there this conspiracy, if you like, where there's one person at the top that really domino? No. And the reason why I say that is if you look around the world and you look around the UK, and one of the biggest problems we have in the UK at the moment is we've got no consensus. If I said to you 10, 15 years ago, what do you think of this particular thing or system or whatever? You would probably get 90 % of people that would agree and 10 % that wouldn't. Now, everybody's got a different opinion and social media hasn't helped.

44:22So what you tend to find is that because we've got that no general consensus on anything, and the local council elections show that with the split that we've got, it's very hard for any political party to get a sense of direction because you've got no consensus. How much of the official Secrets Act are you still gagged by? I'm interested to use the word gag, Liam, because, again, that's a bit of a misconception, you know, in the market. You're gagged by non-disclosure agreements. You're not really gagged by the Official Secrets Act. You don't sign the Official Secrets Act. It's a big piece of document, War and Peace.

45:04I've never read it. You sign to say you accept it. Now, here's the thing. Most government roles, you're under the Official Secrets Act. You might not have signed to say you accept it, but you're under it. And people don't realise that. You could work for the DWP and be under the Official Secret Act. But the Official Secret Act is not really a gagging order. It's you can talk openly, just not about something that would be or cause an incident, you know, that is national security. So, for instance, I would never talk about how we do things. Because we don't want people to know how we do things. We can tell you what's happened.

45:43We're just not going to tell you how we do things. And as long as you're not stupid, then there isn't really a gag in order. I think when you're in a business long enough, you know common sense not to speak certain things. And also, I was under the official secret act not because of MI6. People find that quite surprising because I was an agent. Remember, I talked about intelligence officer and agent. I was an agent. So I'm still bound by it because you're doing work, but you're more under an NDA there than you are the official secret service. But because I'd worked for government departments, you're under that by default.

46:19Do you suspect that the British state is essentially a criminal enterprise? No. We have this thing where history, you know, the United Kingdom acquired this country, that rule, this country, rule that country, et cetera, et cetera. But if you look back in history, we weren't the first to do it, and everybody's got their history. It isn't that, you know, it's a corrupt state. It's all down to certain ideologies and certain things have been pushed that steers people to believe that. But it's not true. And quite often, I wish I could open the door and say, go and have a look at that operation. Go and have a walk around GCHQ.

47:06Go and have a walk around MI6. Go and have a walk around the police counter-terrorism. Go and have a walk around MI5. Then come back to me and tell me that you think the government are corrupt. Now, I'm not saying that there's not corrupt individuals within any government, and I'm not just talking about the UK. Of course there is, you know. But it's the same with the police. When something happens and it's a police officer involved, people don't detach themselves from it and say oh look it's just that individual we tarnish the whole organization and that's something we have to stop doing we have to accept you know one of the things that took me a long time to accept is it's not the whole organization it's just certain individuals within that organization we've got good and bad people in everything in every industry in every sector.

48:02But what we've got to try to start doing is separating the bad people from the organisations. That's a fair comment. Although I think the government are corrupt to the core, but that's my opinion. If you run a government like a business, if you've got a successful business, if you look after your staff first, your staff, okay, will look after the clients or the customers. The clients and the customers will look after the shareholders. Bang, it works. For a lot of companies, they go the opposite way. Look after the shareholders first. So there's no staff value. That business won't survive long term.

48:41The government operate on that model, unfortunately. So governments or certain individuals need to stop looking at themselves and start putting people first. I'm a firm believer, and I've always believed in politics, that when a new law is being changed that is fundamental to the way we live, we have enough technology in the world as it is today, I think that should go out to a public vote. That's my personal belief. I believe we should have more inclusion as society in the decisions that government make. I introduced you as a kidnap and ransom specialist and we still haven't touched base on that.

49:23So let's spend a little bit of time talking about kidnap and ransom. What do we need to know about that? And what's the, what's some of the most hairiest experiences you've ever encountered? For years, I'd been doing kidnap and ransom in the 90s. And I wasn't doing that for MI6. Although sometimes you might have to advise MI6, depending on who's been kidnapped. I was doing that for private clients. I was doing it for insurance companies and crisis management companies. So I should explain. Generally speaking, most Fortune 500, FTSE 100 companies, charities, whatever, will have some form of insurance.

50:02Some will have kidnap and ransom cover, some will. Some will have a risk management strategy for it, but most will be prepared for it because they're sending staff overseas all the time. So we will provide insurance cover to protect in case something happens. Now, what an insurance company will do is attach to a crisis management company. So when something happens, they'll ring the crisis management company. Very similar to a boiler's broke at home, the insurance company then rings an engineer and it comes out and fixes the boiler because the underwriters are not going to go and get somebody back from a kidnapping.

50:38They need a specialist company to actually do it. So typically what will happen is somebody will either put a claim in and it could be a private client, it could be an insurance company, it could be a crisis management company that will come to me and say, this is the situation, what we've got. Now, I used to sell those facilities and I used to put those into companies. But I also used to deal with claims and recoveries. And what we will do is we will put a negotiator in and the negotiator will work out how it's all going to work and their job is to keep those lines open, etc., etc. We'll have legal teams because we need to know what the law is in that country regarding paying ransom.

51:14So it's a big team that goes in. And then, of course, we need the cash. so we'll put the cash together and the way the insurance typically works is the client pays the money first and then it gets it gets reimbursed um there's lots of kidnappings i've dealt with over the years um some of it has been high profile some of it hasn't some of it's been what we call express kidnappings where they'll be held for a couple of days taken to a cash point if you're the maximum then they'll let them go uh some of them have been high profile and some people have been detained for quite some time sometimes we've got it wrapped up very quickly tortured um it's Very rare.

51:50I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I did 17 recoveries, I think, in recovery. That's 17 jobs. And I think it was 25 people got back to their original country of origin. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra. Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together.

52:28Shop now at palmolive.com. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands for the super athletic stuff, like running gear for cruising up the trail. And the super athletic ish stuff, Like fishing gear for chilling by the creek. Nice cast. Fitness apparel to push for higher reps. You got this. And golf balls priced so you can afford to lose one. Or a few. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. So these are international kidnaps? These are international, yeah. I've never done a UK kidnapping. I'm not saying they've never happened.

53:09They have. I'm aware of some that have happened. But most kidnappings, when we talk about the UK, what tends to happen, and parts of Europe as well, is that it's generally child kidnappings. And it really gets, it's not really, not that I would define as a kidnapping and I'd be involved. What it is, is husband and wife split up. Father grabs the child or mother grabs the child because they don't want to be away from their child. That then raises the police. that technically is a kidnapping. Yeah. So there's a lot of that that goes on and generally gets resolved. But when I'm talking about kidnap for ransom, this is specific people.

53:49They've been targeted. They've been detained for ransom. So somebody wants money to let them go. In those cases, in the 25 I dealt with, there was probably a few people had minor injuries. It was more psychological because if you're a professional kidnapper, they run a business, they're professionals. And because of that, they're not going to harm the asset. You know, they want their money. And as long as the negotiator's got it right, we've got all our bits and pieces in place, the exchange is generally smooth. Sometimes it might take time, but it's generally smooth. So no, you don't really, in the movies, you train to a chair and you're beaten, and like what happened to me in 2001.

54:37none of my clients that I recovered had that done to them but psychologically it has happened um I was involved and and and um details of it are actually in my book I was involved in a case that I got called into for by an insurer it wasn't one of my cases um and again I won't go into the ins and outs of what happened to the woman because it's it's not fair but if you think my torturing was bad what she went through was 10 times as worse I'm still shocked to the core with what happened to you that's uh that's terrible sort of makes me feel guilty about the next question I'm going to ask but it is my job is it anything that you've done during your career where you feel like you've got blood on your hands it depends how you define blood on your hands have I ever had to shoot someone pull a trigger no because that's not my job the only thing I had was a mon blanc so so so you know yes I've had protection teams around me on jobs I've been and out of conflict zones and all that kind of stuff.

55:37But I have a protection team and they're not going to put me, I'm gathering intelligence, they're not going to put me straight in the heart of something. So in that sense, no, I don't have blood on my hands. But in terms of some of the things we may have done and the data we gathered and what that data may have been used for, then I'd be naive to think that some things haven't happened as a result of that. And I think that when I look back on certain things from a personal standpoint i never believed in a war in iraq for instance you know um so did we do enough as a society to stop that i don't know so so as i was a member of society at that time and i am now have i got blood in my hands arguably yes you know is there something that stands out that i can say i regret doing in in in my life uh in that role i regret the person i became but i don't regret what I did in the role.

56:34I regret becoming an alcoholic. I regret not stopping drinking sooner. But I don't regret what I did in the role. Are you proud of the man that you've become? I was proud up until about, very difficult, probably about 2010. Extremely proud. You know, we'd been involved in every major conflict this country's ever had from a political risk standpoint. We'd gathered intelligence all over the world. We'd save unteamed lives. I had my own personal record, you know, 25 people brought back to their country of origin that may, I'm not saying I saved their lives, I may have done, I may not. I don't know what the circumstances would have been, but I got them home.

57:12So when I got to 2010, I look back, yeah, it was a proud career. But when I became an alcoholic, no. So proud of what I achieved, not proud of what I've become, but proud of where I'm back now. So as we live and breathe, you're very happy with who you are. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I went through a period of you don't really know who you are when you're in the state I was in. So you do need to find yourself. And I found myself, and some people laugh at me, it's up to them, but I found myself in God. A lot of people do. Now I'm a believer in God. I don't follow one particular religion. For instance, I've been with friends in the Muslim community.

57:56I've been to a mosque. I've been to a church. I've been to a Buddhist temple. I just believe in God as a whole. I don't know enough about each religion. You don't subscribe to any religion, but you believe there's a greater power. Yeah, I believe in God, but it would be wrong of me in the type of work I did, in the way I look at things and the risk analysis I do, Liam, for me to say, I like to know facts before I follow something. I have not studied any of those religions in great depth. So it would be wrong of me to comment on the religion, the path to God, if you like. I just believe in God, you know, and I go to church every Sunday when I can, most Sundays.

58:44And I go between, you know, sort of two churches. And I think, I can't remember the name, I think it's ominous, I think, is the correct word for that type of following. But yeah, I believe in God. And it brings you spiritual comfort. Absolutely. And the final question, is there a story you're dying to tell the public, but you can't because you're sworn to secrecy? And if there is, how can I pry it out of you? There is a story and it goes back to my brother, my work brother, I should say, but same thing in my eyes, who got killed in active service. And I wanted to write a book. And unfortunately, there are people who don't want me to write that book.

59:33so what I've decided to do is to write the book as a thriller based on truth so I can get around the legalities shall we shall we say okay so it'll be fiction but non-fiction yeah and I've got to leave the reader to read between the lines that may be trickier than what it sounds. It's going to be hard. I mean, I started the book three years ago, Liam, and we've got probably about 15 ,000 words, but I've had a lot of blocks in certain areas, so it's become very difficult. And where can people find you? I'm not active on social media. The only social media I have is LinkedIn from my professional capacity.

1:00:21I have my own website and that's Norman Taylor SRA, Sierra Romeo Alpha dot com, Norman Taylor SRA dot com. On there, it gives my profile, my background, the books I've written, the type of services I provide for clients because I still provide secret services, but I do it for private client as opposed to the government. And yeah, everything is on those websites. Fine. And I've got one of your books here called Holding You Covered, written by Norman Taylor, which is there. And I will put links. So if people want to purchase that and find out a little bit more about you and your story and what you write about, then they can.

1:01:01I hope you've enjoyed this conversation. I certainly have. And the good news is there's going to be a part two because there's another book that Norman's wrote, which is completely and utterly different from the entire conversation we've just had. So that's going to come soon. And if you could please like and subscribe to this channel so I can continue bringing you conversations like this that are out of the ordinary, that the mainstream will not send your way. And I thank you for coming, sharing your time, and I'm looking forward to getting into part two. But good health. Thank you, Tim. Good health, sir.

1:01:37Good to see you. Thanks for having me on. You're welcome. See you soon. Cheers, mate.

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