Nobody Knew What Happened to Phil Hickin as a Child

25:45He's like, all right, Phil. I said, all right, yeah. I didn't know who he was, just Inspector Big Bollocks. I didn't know his name or whatever. He went, yeah, I like it. He's done really well. He went, but I'm telling you now, mate, I'm watching you like a fucking hawk because they knew what we were doing, what we were up to, how we were getting our money. And he said, there's one man, if you let him in here on football days, which I knew he was, he was a friend of mine, I'll shut you down. I don't know who it was. Can we say? No, I don't really want to say. His name's Sean, that's all I'll say.

26:19Everyone who's listening to this now and watching, they'll know what I'm talking about. What was the coppers' beef with him? He was a fucking lunatic, but then he got arrested for saying that they didn't like. I don't really want to say what he got arrested for because it wasn't a nice thing what he got arrested for. And they had it in for him. And they said, if you're letting him... And I had to stand on the door that Saturday and say, you can't come in, mate. And that caused big friction. Between you and him. Amongst their firm. I think it was a couple of seasons later. They come in a bar. Anyway, that's another story.

26:53So, then I was at it severely. We were in parcels of Charlie and Puff and what have you. and I think it was a couple of seasons later I went to I was working the daytime in football for the football and we had a fancy dress party in there that night and my brother-in-law I went home he took over so this fancy dress party everyone's come in my brother does my brother's got a pair of heels on a pair of stockings he's dressed up as a bird right all the gear this fella Sean's come in with his pals and they've caused fucking murders and my brother-in-law's gone out the back to where we had bats and that out the back he's picked a crowbar up and he's got eyehills on everything he's come out and he's smashed his Sean running up with the crowbar he's gone down but he's got back up so my brother-in-law's let him have it a couple of times he's gone down, there was claret everywhere He's rung me up.

28:00He said, I think I've killed Sean Duda. I went, you're fucking joking. I said, what's going on? I've come down. There's fucking claret everywhere. They've took him away. Did he die? No. But because of me and who I know and my connections over Tottenham, whatever, our pub became a target. I mean, we had so many firms come there and we had tear-ups with them. But one night, Tottenham, England were playing, I think it was, was either Argentina or Italy at Wembley. Anyway, I'm sitting in a bar with my ex-wife and some staff, and by about half past six, we would have been banged out about people coming to watch the football.

28:40And it was about four or five my mates are now, and my ex-wife said to me, we need some change, and we need some drink, some bottles of this and that. So a pal of mine who lived up the road in a flat, he always had loads of change, and he always had loads of, because all the chocolate lovers used to take all their bottles of drink from it. So I used to go and buy my bottles of drink off him. Vodka and all that. So I've gone around, he's out, he's flat. I said, Dave, I want this, da-da-da-da. Yeah, he went all right, da-da. Also my phone, no, his phone went. An all-new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.

29:14Four years ago, we were just making TikToks. But it feels like there are no friendships left in MomTalk. You act like you're better than everyone, you're not. I can't trust anyone in this group. She's just dead to me. There's so much the public doesn't know. Watch the new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects.

29:49And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. And it was my ex-wife. She went, you feel that? She went, I can't get through on his phone. I left my phone in the car. He's gone, you've got to go back to the pub. I went, why? I don't know. get back to the pub. Anyway, I've gone back to the pub and there's fucking blood everywhere. As I'm driving back to the pub, I've seen these little firmer geezers on the pavement, walking up towards Seven Sisters, away from the pub.

30:31And I thought, come in, we had a big mirror behind the thing with the bank on. That's right. My four mates stand. I said, what went on? They went, Chelsea have just come in. I said, what? They went, yeah, about 15 of them try to come in. We went, they've had a major tear up with them. It wasn't Chelsea, it was Derby. They've come down to London to have a go at our pub. They don't want to go to the England game, but they want to have a go at my pub, right? I'm like, what? They're like, yeah. Anyway, I said, was it? It was a little firm that I passed. So I've just gone straight in the kitchen, because we served food there.

31:10I've just got all the knives out, carbonized. We might take them, get in my car. I have to be careful what I say here, because I don't want to get people arrested. But anyway. But before you go there, you said that there was claret. So there's blood splattered up the walls in the pub. So they'd come in and smash the load of your customers up. No, no, no. My four pals, what happened, they come from the door. They've had it with them. They've got the main lot of them gone out. They've locked the door and they've caught three of them in the pub. So they have smashed these guys. But when they first come in, they're throwing poor balls about.

31:43I mean, when I say there's blood up the walls, It wasn't splattered everywhere, but there was blood on the floor. It was up the bit on the one. They'd done these three fellas, and they've just opened the door and thrown them back out. So now I've come in the pub, give everyone the carbonised and machetes out the thing, got in my car, and we've caught them up there. I've mounted the pavement, gone in the middle of them. They've scattered everywhere. We jumped out, and one of them got stabbed. one of them ended up with his arm severed I mean that was fucking he ended up in Northwood Hospital we had to send someone up there we found out what ward he was in we had to send someone up and say listen mate you've got to keep your mouth shut here which give me sure he did they've even wrote about it in their book Derby they'd come for it unstuck but that was naughty that yeah two or three of them got stabbed this fella got his arm severed who crossed the line there?

32:44Did they cross the line storming your pub? Yeah, of course they did. Or did you cross the line chopping them up? No, not at all. They took the liberty. I'll tell you what, this is funny, I've got a group on Facebook called Territic Culture from the 60s and 90s. And every now and then, like, Derby geezer will say something, and I'll go, yeah, well you didn't last that fucking long in Tottenham, did you, when you come around? And so we have a bit of a thing about it. And one of the geezers who was there, light-skinned guy, he always says, you lot took a fucking liberty with us. I'm not saying...

33:14He actually admitted throwing a pool ball at my missus, right? My ex-missus, sorry. He actually admitted that. Now, to me, they've come in the pub, there's four fellas and three women behind a bar and they're throwing pool balls at the women. Nah, they've took a liberty, mate. You know? So what we've done to them is what it is. You come in, you try to take a liberty and we've dealt with it. So what's that? But they won't have that. I've had it with him a few times. He's like, no, you had swords. I said, no, we didn't have swords. We had big knives, but we didn't have swords. Right? And what you got, you deserved.

33:49It was that. I'm not saying I'm proud of it, but when your head's gone, you know, don't throw a pool ball at my missus. Do you know what I mean? My ex-missus. I'm not having that. No man would have that. Do you know what I mean? I'd never throw a pool ball at a woman. I'd never touch a woman. Never in my life have I touched a woman. I certainly wouldn't throw a pool ball at her. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so then I got arrested in there. In the pub? Yeah, a few years later, I got arrested in there for 38 kilos of cocaine and cannabis. Nothing serious then? Nothing serious, no. But the thing is, when they arrested me, what happened?

34:25It was always parties in there. Every Saturday, we would go right the way through. We'd open the doors. Everyone would be fucking wankered. Anyway, this particular night, we was having a party in there. Everyone was in there having a booze. and all of a sudden, two fellas and a woman left. I'm not going to name them, but one of the fellas went into a phone box and made a phone call. All of a sudden, their doors went in. All right? Now, I never used to touch anything. Any parcel that came to me, my supplier would send down and I'd tell them where to put it, and the buyer would go and take it at a certain time.

35:06Anyway When the doors come in I didn't know There was a parcel Outside in the garden Never knew this I thought it'd been picked up But it hadn't been Anyway The doors have come in Not found Nothing in the pub The back door's there They're searching upstairs In my office They're searching But not even a wrap Right Which I was really surprised about They found a little lump of puff Like that in my office And with the gaze of the fan He's like Sarge, Sarge and he was like, mate, are you for fucking real? We ain't come here for that. Anyway, bosh. They've cuffed me. I said, we've got to take you to the station.

35:42I said, why? They said, as they're taking me out, one of the young cops, he's seen the back door. So he went, go after that. There's a back door. So he's opened the back door and the doors have gone out. They found it. It's under a load of rubbish or whatever. It won't be picked up. They found it. Now I'm like, fuck. But I, at the time, I never used to touch anything. So that could be anybody's. And that was my defence. I didn't know it was there, which I didn't know it was there. But that could be anybody's, mate. That could be the member of staff. It could be anybody. And when it went to court, they took me, went to magistrates twice.

36:23Sorry about this. Before this, they were filming me from across the road. Now I knew they were filming me. There was a solicitor's office there. They asked if they could use his office to film us, and he said no. He come over and warned me. He said, Phil, you're being filmed. I said, well, sweet. And I used to look up at night and wave at them like that, right? So they know, I know, they're watching me, right? Anyway, when we're in a call, they've got no evidence to say it's mine. So when it magistrates twice, on the third one, third time, they've got to produce evidence now. It's the third time magistrates before he goes to the Crown.

37:01They've got to produce evidence. So my barrister said, well, still there's no evidence to the judge. And he went, well, to the prosecution, have you got evidence? She went, well, we're waiting for a thumbprint, we think, is Mr Higgins. He went, what do you mean you're waiting for a thumbprint? This is the third time he's come to magistrates. This is not good enough, right? So my barrister said, look, I want it thrown out. anyway then she said look we've got film we've been we've got evidence like video evidence that this Mr Hicken he mixes with known criminals and the judge went but that what's that got to do with what you've charged what he's been arrested for that's got nothing to do with that yeah alright but what is that anyway threw it out now in the back of the court was about six of my mates were sitting there straight down the pub party but after that the maddest thing is like I've got people calling me a grass because I got off.

37:56And my pals were sitting there saying, listen mate, you ain't no fucking grass. We were sitting there, we heard exactly what went on, but that's the mentality of some people. You get off of a case and I've heard it so many times, he's a grass, how did he get off of that? Do you know what I mean? And yeah, it was mad, but yeah, that was the result. That was a big result for me. Did that cause you problems? No, it caused me problems because I had to pay for it. No, I mean like the rumour starting that you're a grass. Not really, no. No one would say that to my face. I heard it so many times, people saying, you know, I said, let him come and say it to my face.

38:25But my pals were like, we know he's not grass. We know he's not grass. We were sitting in the back of the court. We know exactly why it got thrown out. Do you know what I mean? After that, I had to step away from the bar. I signed my shares over to my firing law. I was like a silent partner, but the police basically said, if he's involved, we're just going to keep coming and spinning and spinning. So I signed my shares over to my firing law. Did that make you also think it's probably time I retire from the drug game as well? Yeah, without a doubt. Without a doubt, mate. You know, that was a fucking, that was a scare for me.

38:57Do you know what I mean? Anyway, after that, we moved to, I was living in Chinkford at the time, and we moved to Canvey Island. And what year are we now? About 96. Anyway, the bar only lasted another few years, and then it got shut down. But I was like a silent partner. anyway moved to Canary Island and I just went back laying bricks after that thought I can't it's got to just go back in sight my mum my mum she got dementia and she she was in a warden controlled old people's home and my brother or no my sister who lived in Southend got a phone call one day from one of the women that was like a warden there and she said look say it's untoward with your mum say it's going on there's a fillery he's a he's a volunteer and it keeps going in your mum's room and something's going on anyway Anyway, she was keeping an eye on her, and then one day she went in after him.

40:20Now, my mum's got full-blown dementia now. And my mum's standing there with spunk running down her legs.

40:32He was raping her. My mum didn't have a clue what was going on. Didn't have a clue, all right? She's got dementia. Anyway... he was ex-old Bill yeah so the police get called he didn't get charged I got pulled in and they said to me listen if anything we've checked you out we know all about you if anything happens to him you're in we're pulling you in you're gone and there was a bullet there was a gun with six bullets in it It was for him. I was going to kill this cunt. I thought he'd done to my mum, yeah?

41:21So when they called me in, one of the fellas sitting there, there was three of them, was his son, yeah? And I said, listen, mate, if my dad done what your fucking dad has done to my mum, to your mum or whatever, me, I'd fucking kill him. You're letting your... He never got charged. He just disappeared. Gone. Didn't get charged. Raped my mother while she had fucking dementia in old people's home. I knew something like that was coming. I could tell by the energy that this isn't going to be nice at all. No, mate, yeah. And to this day, if I ever get my answer, I'll kill him. I'll kill him. Do you know what I mean?

42:06How can they not... How can he not be charged? just because he's a fucking ex-old Bill and his son's still old. How wrong is that? And how do you come to terms with that and get over that? Or is that something you never get over? I never get over it. I never get over it. It fucking kills me every time I think about it. Do you know what I mean? It kills me, man. Because that man should have gone. You know what I mean? He was going to go, but after that, and then because of that, I got really bad on the drink and the gear. And I ended up in rehab because it just fucked my head up so bad. I was doing a bottle of JD a day, a couple of bottles of wine, fucking sniff like I was going out of fucking fashion.

42:49I ended up going into rehab. How long for? It was six weeks. That was it. And the woman I spoke to, the counsellor in there, she was amazing. The first time, my first session with her, I walked out there. she made me realise why my head was so fucked about, what had gone in my past. And I walked out there and I never touched fucking any gear for about three and a half years after that six weeks. Never went near. It all ran me all the time, what the lads were doing. It didn't bother me. Do you know what I mean? She was amazing how she spoke to me so calmly and she made me realise this all goes back to my childhood and then what's happened to my mum was just the fucking, do you know what I mean?

43:37That's the icing on the cake. The icing on the cake, yeah. So what was life like after rehab? All right. Villainy? Violence? Not really, no. Football, yeah. I was getting, you know, still involved in the football. You went back to Lambrix? Yeah, I went back to Lambrix. I got divorced. Too much chaos? Yeah, and we grew apart. We grew apart. We met when we were kids and to be honest with you, I've got three lovely children from my ex-wife, but we should never marry, got married. It was a bit of a, it was kind of forced on me a bit when I was in prison. But yeah, got divorced and I met Lorraine, who, um,

44:28who's not with me no more. she passed away in December how did you meet Lorraine? she was she ran a building company for a guy called Dennis and it was it was based in Irons Park and my mate Kenny he was doing all their electrical it was only a small building company but they wanted a brick there to just go around little council estates and build walls and that's how I met her she was running it and we used to meet in Adam Brooks' pub. We used to meet her every Friday. She'd sort out the wages and I was just feeling in love with her, mate. An all-new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.

45:16Four years ago, we were just making TikToks. But it feels like there are no friendships left in MomTalk. You act like you're better than everyone. You're not. I can't trust anyone in this group. She's just dead to me. there's so much the public doesn't know. Watch the new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects.

45:52And when you need more than just answers, Give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

46:18The first time I was here, I was just fending up with my mom. This was about 20 years ago. yeah and she it's mad you know because she hates this she always used to say you can't say this but she I used to I used to look at her and think mate stunning and for about three weeks I never spoke I never spoke to her she knew I was because she'd turned the wages off and all that anyway she came up to me after about three weeks and she said alright I said yeah she went You're going to ask me? And I went, ask you what? She went, ask me fucking out. I said, as you know, I want to take you out. She said, because you ain't taken your fucking eyes on me for three weeks.

47:00And she gave me her number. And that was it. Bosh, that's how we met. And then, yeah. You had 20 nice years together. She's beautiful, man. See, anyone that knows you, who follows what you do, will know that it's very recent since you lost her. Yeah, yeah. This is a fresh wound. Yeah, it's very, very fresh. Talk me through life. with Lorraine? Oh. What were you doing outside of the marriage, inside of the marriage, the whole football thing? Well, before we got, we didn't, I proposed to her after six months and she was like, you're not fucking off because I went back to doing what I was doing. I was laying bricks but then I started dabbling again and she knew, didn't like it but she said to me, listen, you want me, I'll take the ring, I paid a nice few quid for this ring, I'll give it to her and she took it, I'll take it.

47:51She went, you've got to change, mate, if you want me to marry her. Ten years later, we got married. Yeah, she was just an amazing lady. Everyone, she got on with everyone. Everyone loved her. Yeah, she was just beautiful. She really was. And she changed me. She turned my life around. Did you take her to the football?

48:14She went to one game with me. It was Tottenham West Brom at Tottenham. It was a night game. and we were sitting in the seats and the West Brom fans were behind us. So they went one new up and they're all leaning over and they're taking a piss and all of a sudden I've heard, you wankers. I've looked around and she's going, she's going, I went, what are you doing? Sit down. She went, they're winding me up. I said, Lorraine, I'm the one that should be getting up and going, you know what I mean? But that was the only game I took her apart from when she'd come in my mate's box. So it's different when you're in there.

48:43You think she's too much of a liability? No, she just, to be honest with you, she didn't like crowds. She used to panic around crowds. It took me ages from here talking to going to that game. Then she leant right into it. Yeah, so we were together for a long time.

49:00We went to the Cotswolds one weekend, and I had a white van. It was parked outside her flat that I'd moved into with her. And her son, Luke, decided he wanted to take my... He was only, I think, about 15 at the time, Luke. he wanted to take my van for a drive. Right, he's found my keys. He's drove to the end of the road. The end of the road's a dead end. But he can't get in. He don't know how to put it in reverse, right? So him and his friend, who was a girl, by the way, they're pushing, he's, she's, or he's pushing it. She's, they're trying to get it around. Anyway, the police have come. They've nicked him.

49:38We're in the Cotswolds, right? And we're sitting and we're drunk. We're having a right laugh, snip and whatever. police have run, we've arrested your son, he's been arrested for nicking your partner's van, in the back of my van was half a kilo of Charlie, and I'm like, fuck, so she didn't know, so I said, I've got to tell you something, she's like, fucking hell, anyway, her oldest son, he went and got Luke out, my van was left in the yard, and I'm thinking mate if they've gone out on a bus and they've got the dogs with them and they're in that yard they're going to go to my van but I've got to go and get this van when I got it never said a fucking word to me it was still in the back of the van but I was like fuck it now Luke man what are you doing but I had to tell her and she was like why don't you fucking tell me about all this I said no I had to tell her you know what I mean then the FLA came along and she fucking hated the FLA because I got so much stick from the left.

50:46I was in papers. They named me in papers a neo-Nazi fucking knuckle-dragging racist. Did you say, actually, I'm a burgling drug dealer? Yeah. Don't be so fucking rude. But yeah, and then the FLA come along. Was you on the straight and narrow by the time the FLA came along? I was never on the straight and narrow, mate. Never? Never. We are what we are, aren't we? Do you know what I mean? It was in you. Yeah, it was in me. She knocked it out of me in the end. It's the only way she would marry me. You know what I mean? if I stopped doing what I was doing. And I did, because I wanted to marry her, because I loved her unconditionally.

51:19Do you know what I mean? So talk to me about the birth of the FLA. Well, it all started with the Westminster and London Bridge atrocities. Good mate, Roy Larner. The lion of fucking London Bridge. Anyway, so there were six of us just chatting on Facebook. It's all spurs, lads. And one of the lads went, listen, we've got to try and do something about it. And he was like, what? And he went, let's try and get all the firms together. and I was like, yeah, fucking good luck with that. He said, let's get a march together, let's get all the firms together. And one of the lads, Big Nick, he said, all right, yeah, we'll try it, we'll try it.

51:50We said, we make your phone calls to all the fucking head-on shows of all the firms because, you know, we all know each other through dealings and all that. And, so someone, one of the lads, what are we going to call it? And Nick just come out with, let's call it Football Lads Alliance. And I thought, we all said, fucking, what a name, do you know what I mean? Brilliant. Within three weeks, We met at St Paul's. We had 10 ,000 now. We had a little flatback truck with a little sound system on it. And we had the Indian guy talking. What's his name? Is he the head of the... Seeker Awareness Society?

52:26Yes. Mohan Singh. Yes. Brilliant speech. And then we marched from there to one of the... My mind's terrible. We laid reefs down. And then everyone just went about their business. And we had a drink and that was it. but after that it just blew up people were saying oh you've got to get merchandised under the and then Manchester happened and that was it fucking everyone was angry so we said right we're going to have a march on that was in June we had the first one and we had the march in October I can't remember October the 8th anyway and we're going to meet at Park Lane we hired an open shop bus and how many different firms were turning up mate All of them?

53:10The police say there was 73 ,000 now from the eye in the sky. It was unbelievable. I mean, when we got there, the atmosphere, I mean, we, I reckon Tottenham must have had two, two and a half thousand. We met at Oldburn and we had a meet in Green Park and you couldn't, it was just mental. Because it all could have gone wrong on the day, couldn't it? Mate, if it had gone wrong, I've got to admit, I mean, I was on Tenderhooks, but I had to, I was in Green Park, but I was hosting it. So I had to get back to the bus. I was on top of the bus. We had Phil Campion speaking. We had Mike Howell, you know Mike?

53:41Yeah. Richard Inman, John Meehan spoke, who was, he kind of like was the face of the FLA. A couple of other people. But as I was on the bus, we never knew how many were going to be there. I was on the top of the bus and I'm looking out and there's just firms coming from everywhere. But it was like, this is mad, because you know like the Warriors it was like a scene at the Warriors there was just all these firms just walking in and at one point I did give it like can you dig it on the mark and everyone was like yeah and then it's one of my favourite films by the way oh great film and then I walked in with Tottenham and we had a massive firm and then all these other firms and I remember the police saying like because they they never agreed to block Park Lane off they had no fucking choice did the police say nobody's wasting nobody but when the police I think they went up adjusting and said like how many were you expecting he said well I think you're going to have to block the road off and then about half hour later I remember the cop was saying block the road off because we filled up Park Lane all the way down and it was just mental and then West Ham being West Ham were the last firm to walk in and make a show they had a fucking an amazing reef they walked in they must have had the same about two and a half thousand same as Tottenham and it was just mad.

55:07It was like, where did all, and then Leeds come. There was, and as people were coming in, everyone was clapping them. But Leeds walked in at the very last. They walked, like, you know the Hilton hotel, Park Lane. From there, all the way back, you couldn't move. This firm come, about 400 of them. We'd be like, who were they? First of all, everyone's like, these left. It was Leeds. I mean, Leeds, like, come from, you know, it must have been about 400 of them. Clapping. and it was mental and then from there yeah it just it just blew up was it nice being friends with all your rivals after all these years yeah it was good listen I've made some fantastic friends mate West Ham Millwall God rest his soul Terry Ulihan he was Millwall and the first March we got onto the bridge and he wouldn't leave me alone he's like hey mate mate and I was like mate please just leave me me and him become like brothers right he came on our committee when we started the DFL he was fantastic he's dead now God rest his soul I've got mates now from every part of the country every firm just all good men you know what I mean good good men that came together because I mean it was against terrorism and extremism at the time but when we broke away and formed the DFL and the reason we'd done that is because money everyone was asking for merchandise and overnight we opened the Facebook page there was 100 ,000 overnight.

56:37When the next day, everyone was like, you've seen this? 100 ,000 members. Everyone asking for merchandise. So we agreed that any profit for the merchandise goes to charities. We don't want it. We're not here for it. And it didn't work out like that. The person that was an olden the purse strings didn't, it wasn't, I don't want to say too much because I don't want to, you know, I'm back talking to the fella now, but at the time we fell out. But then we broke away and formed the DFLA. Now, the DFLA was more active. We went up and down the country everywhere. We'd done marches in Manchester, Birmingham, Sunderland.

57:17We went to Telford, Rotsdale, like in the midweek, Telford and Rotsdale. But we were active. We were doing stuff and we were doing, I mean, we raised money for charities, the Justice for 21 campaign. Well, I think we raised about 150 grand for them. We'd done a march in Birmingham for them. We were active. We were doing stuff. I mean, you could, someone could be in trouble in, I don't know, fucking Rochester or, you know, anywhere. And we'd make a phone call. There'd be 30 lads within a couple of hours. I mean, we had a committee. I mean, we had lads from Birmingham, Wolves, West Brom, Villa, Millwall, West Ham, Arsenal, Tottenham, all different clubs.

57:57And it was all in committee. We'd have meetings. All our meetings were always there in Birmingham because they were in the middle of the country. And we'd have meetings, there'd be 60 lads there. All in the hall. One or two lads from each firm. And we'd discuss what we were going to do next. And it was run so well. And then lockdown come in. And there was nothing to do. And it just kind of went quiet. But we was always there. We was always talking to each other. Was there any firms that didn't play ball, that didn't want to merge? Not really, no. Or any individuals that were problematic? Yeah, I mean, when it first started, there was like, you know, you get a few Arsenal games, you go, fuck that, Tottenham started that, we're not getting involved.

58:40Well, it ain't about that. It's not about who started it. We weren't running around going, oh, we started this. We weren't doing that. It was like, you know, it's a shame because the FLA, that second march, from there, I should have really kicked on. But then when the money, you know, the money was going, it weren't being used properly. It was going in someone else's pocket rather than being used properly. And we just broke away and formed a DFL. And, mate, forming a DFL to me was amazing because I've got friends now from up and down the country, Newcastle, Manchester, Tony O 'Neill, and, you know, all these people that we could call on.

59:20I mean, I met Tommy at Birmingham. The first time I ever spoke to Tommy was at Birmingham March. I was sitting next to him. he's staying the same motel as me. And I sat with him, me and Marla Ray sat with him. And that man, his knowledge was amazing. He was talking to me and I was just like, because I weren't sure about him up until then. I was in all these rumors, oh, he's this, he's that, he's EDL. Because I didn't really get involved in all that, the EDL stuff and that. And oh, he's a racist. Mate, not at all. Not at all. one time sitting with him I knew what that man was about you know what I mean and I've got so much love and respect for the man you know these people that call him out as a grifter and all that yeah right you wouldn't last two minutes in his fucking shoes do you know what I mean you wouldn't last two the man's done I think it's four prison sentences isn't it something like that you know what I mean still comes out and gets on with it do you know what I mean they wouldn't they don't do one prison sentence and fucking they disappear they fold so with the Dfla all the good that you've done and all the great network and you can basically save people if they're in trouble, north, south, in the middle.

1:00:26What problems comes with a DFLA? Because you've been branded far right by the media. Has that affected you personally? Yeah, it did affect me personally. I mean, it affected my relationship with Raine because she hated it because I was getting involved in arguments with fucking lefties online. Now, I laugh at them. They could throw everything they want at me. I'll just laugh at them. But I was on, I mean, I'm not very good. Somebody come on and say something, I start arranging meets with them and all that and go, where are you going? I'm going to fucking, no, you're not, sit down. But she hated it because they, you know, I was, they had done a piece about, I mean, The Guardian, The Daily Mail, I'm a neo-Nazi racist.

1:01:02I'll tell you about David Lammy in a minute. The funny one was The Guardian. They'd done a piece on us and they, I was named in it. So we decided, there was a, I can't remember, there was a march, but before the march, 40 of us went to The Guardian's offices with a letter demanding they apologise, right? So we've met at King's Cross. Their office is only around the corner, right? We've just gone bowling around, straight in. The security had gone out of the way, gone up the stairs. Where's the editor? Who's it? Owen, what's his fucking? Jones. Yeah, he was working for me. So I don't know. Whatever he was.

1:01:41Anyway, he wouldn't come to the front. I said, this is a letter. And then the head of the security came. He was nervous. I said, mate, there's going to be no trouble, right? hand that to the editor and I want a public apology calling me a neo-Nazi racist when my parents are fucking Jewish. Yeah? They didn't apologise but every piece they'd done after that they'd never called us a racist or anything. They'd just call us the DFLA. But Lorraine hated it. And then David Lammy, right? Yeah, tell me about David Lammy. Right, David Lammy. I went for a pub, me and my friend John. I had a pub in Tottenham called LTs.

1:02:21He had a pub in Tottenham called the Bill Nick. I ended up walking away from the LTs, and John rang me up one day and said, listen, there's a pub in Tottenham called the Elmhurst, and it had been shut, big pub, and a nightclub on the back. He said, listen, the Elmhurst has come up. He went, the brewery, we can get it, Phil, me and you. I said, happy days. Got up there, met them. Didn't quite sign the thing. Agreed everything. think then we were going back a few days later to sign the lease and all that and me it's my own fault because I put it up on Facebook we're taking over the illness to get everyone at it let me see it he's the MP for Tottenham overnight he got 45 ,000 he called me he come out and called me and said these people are the Dfla it's gonna they're gonna have the fire right meetings in And now overnight he had 45 ,000 signatures on a petition, right?

1:03:20So they took the pub away from us. We couldn't get it. Now he's never even met me, doesn't even know what I look like, right? The next Remembrance Day, because we always, we used to, at the Remembrance Day Parade in Tottenham, we'd always go up there, lay a reef, he's there. So I went up to him, I said, all right. He said, I said, do you know who I am? He went, I said, I'm Phil Hicken, mate. and like, he just froze. He didn't know what to do. Everyone was like, Phil, come away. I said, no, I'm not going to, mate. I said to him, if you've got anything to say to me, say it to me off my face now.

1:03:54Don't come out calling me a neo-Nazi racist, right, when you don't even know me, but he just, the security or whatever, they just shuffled him away. That's just, that's the standard, that man. An all-new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Four years ago, we were just making TikToks. But it feels like there are no friendships left in MomTalk. You act like you're better than everyone. You're not. I can't trust anyone in this group. She's just dead to me. There's so much the public doesn't know. Watch the new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.

1:04:33For bundle subscribers, terms apply. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. So to steer this towards the end of this interview, I want to ask you about what you're doing now, because you've got another project, Together for the Children.

1:05:13Yeah. What it is, why you're doing it, what keeps you moving forward after all the knockbacks you've had. And then I want to find out how you've been dealing with your recent grief. But you take it in your own time in the order that you want to give it to me. And you've got something coming up September. Yeah, 26th and we'll talk about. Well, the Together for the Children campaign is, basically, because lockdown came in and it all went quiet and no one was doing anything, I think no one was communicating. The DfLA never really went away. We always was there in the background talking to each other.

1:05:47And then a couple of years ago, we was like, listen, we've got to start getting, you know, we've got to get out there and do something for the kids and the survivors and we'd start protecting our children. And Justin, who you've had on, he said, right, let's start calling ourselves together with the children. born out of the Football Lads movement. So that's why it's called Football Lads Together for the Children. And basically, you know, the reason I'm passionate about it is because of what happened to me when I was a child. So the Together for the Children campaign is all about protecting our children, giving the survivors a voice to tell people what they've been through to support them.

1:06:32I mean, you know, like Wendy, she's amazing, this lady. And the whole team, they're really good. And they talk to survivors, they help them out. If they're going through it, they'll talk to them, they tell them where to go, you know, that sort of stuff. So you're a big support network for survivors? Massive support network. And is it survivors of any kind of abuse? Any kind. And it doesn't matter what colour they are. This is not about the grooming gangs, just the Pakistani grooming gangs. You know, my motto is if any man or woman has a preference for younger women, younger children, no matter what colour you are, no matter what race you are, no matter what religion you are, we're coming for you.

1:07:21We are coming for you. You're all as fucking bad as each other, all right? So it's not just about, you know, let's get it right. The Pakistani agreement, it is a massive thing. but there's white grooming gangs. You know, we've got, we was talking to a guy up in Scotland at the moment who's been, he was groomed by the Catholic, the Catholic priest and passed around, satanic, what they call it. Oh, putting kids through satanic rituals. Yeah, yeah. I mean, mate, this man's story is horrific. That's a lot you're taking on because that will become very heavy after a while. Yeah, I mean, look, it's rife out there.

1:08:00It's right out there, mate, with these noncies. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I didn't know about all these apps that they've got. Like last night on the TikTok forum we were doing, mate, when they started naming all these apps, we put a thing up today with them all on, that these kids go on and it's all to groom them. Well, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll put all of the links to your platforms in the description here so people can just go and find, together for the children, the dates that you're going to be doing demos, is contact details for survivors, for people that are struggling, that are being abused.

1:08:33Like, reach out to Phil's group. Yeah, Saturday the 26th of September, we're leaving the embankment at one o 'clock. We need as many people as possible, mothers, fathers, grandparents, you know, bring your kids along because it's not, it's not, this is a, you know, it's a family thing. I mean, the last, the first two marches we had, it's been families. I mean, the last one we had, I mean, when we launched it in March last year, I think we had about 400 there, but we deliberately didn't put it out because we didn't want the left countering it and scaring the survivors away. After it, we spoke to the survivors that spoke on our platform and the ones that worked with us, and they said, no, put it out there, then the football has it behind it.

1:09:15The last one, I mean, people say to me there was 30 ,000. I don't know. I really have not got a clue. There was big numbers there. We filled up from where our stage was in Whitehall, it went all the way back to Trafalgar Square. So there was great numbers there. This time, mate, I mean, if... Once we release the speakers, I think their numbers are going to be astronomical. Astronomical. There's two of them that have agreed to speak, but we're not going to release it yet until we get the OK of where our stage... We want our stage to be, do you know what I mean? OK. How are you? How have you been dealing with grief?

1:09:52How are you today? Not good. Not good. My mental health's not been great. I've been hitting the booze and I'm seven days sober today because Lorraine passed away in my arms. She told me the night before she was going, she called me at quarter past one in the morning, passed in my arms, and so I couldn't stay in the house any longer because she passed away in my arms in the kitchen. She was on the floor for four hours before they come and got her and me and the boys were all sitting there and it's in my head all the time. I've got to go and be tested for PTSD because of it being in my head all the time.

1:10:36But since I've been sober, things are becoming clearer. I used to, you know, I'd be indoors, I'd take the dogs for a walk, I'd go and do a few things around the house and I'd be sitting there. I'm in Dill in Kent now in a friend's house. She's let me stay there. She said you can stay there for as long as you want Phil Or just sort your head out And it's two and a half hours From where my children are My grandchildren The rain's plot So I'm moving back to the area But I weren't dealing with it too well I was getting fucking smashed every day But I was lying to my children And my friends Putting on a brave face I was going out I'd have a few pints of Guinness And I'd go and get a couple of bottles of wine They'd be gone in a half hour Go and get another couple of bottles of wine And I'd be I'm drinking I'm thinking I'm numbing it, but I'm making it worse.

1:11:24I'm sitting there crying my eyes out, and then the next day, I'm suicidal. I want to just get a bottle of pills and go and join the rain. And she wouldn't want that. She wouldn't want me to be there looking after the kids. So that's what I've got to do now. So I'm seven days sober, back in the gym, been in the gym the last three days, loving it again, punching a punch bag. So I'm getting there, but it's a long road. Do you know what I mean? But I've got good friends and family around me. that lady out there is a good friend of mine yeah so it's been hard but I'm getting there and through everything that you've been through seen and done experienced felt what was your final message to anybody watching and listening be today just be there look after your family be true to yourself don't worry about what other people say behind your back that's all I can really say well I'm going to put all of Phil's links in the description for you to go and follow his work and look out for the speakers that are going to come September the 26th.

1:12:28Like and subscribe to the channel so I can keep bringing you these conversations and the guests at the mainstream will never want to platform. And if they do platform them, you won't get honest discussion like that. And mate, I know you're going through absolute hell and I hope that things get easier and you live a life that makes Lorraine very proud. Thanks a lot, mate. Cheers, brother. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

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